Secret of Evermore (SNES)

2014-01-21 10:25:04 pm

Spent lots of time messing with the walk thru walls cheat now since I can actually see what's going on thanks to Asfar's code. Unfortunately, the occasions where I previously managed to go out of bounds using the Wrong Entrance all involve being stuck in OoB territory, you can walk around but can't pass through any of the barrier to go back in bounds. So the only way you could ever take advantage of the connected maps would be to use Forced Character Movement, that is, using a trigger that causes character movement (Guard in FE Village, "It's Locked" doors, etc.). And I don't believe there are any triggers like this accessible from a map that's connected to anything.

Just in case anyone's curious: All the huts in FE village are connected, and one connects to Blimp's hut, which I believe then connects to Jaguar Ring cave>Raptor Cave>HB cave>Volcano Path cave>Drain cave. Almost all of the Volcano is connected, which is also connected to the Armor salesman near the entrance. The Crustacea rooms are connected. I think the Ivory/Ebon Keep houses are mostly connected, although not in a horizontal fashion. The Dark Forest is pretty connected I think, although it is a very strange and glitchy place to mess around in (probably why Panda fried his one cart), going OoB and going into other entrances causes strange outcomes. I believe all maps roll over eventually (same with the entire row of connected maps) and on a "rollover" map essentially nothing can happen, no triggers exist, attacking freezes the character, spells don't have affects.

Spent lots of time messing with the walk thru walls cheat now since I can actually see what's going on thanks to Asfar's code. Unfortunately, the occasions where I previously managed to go out of bounds using the Wrong Entrance all involve being stuck in OoB territory, you can walk around but can't pass through any of the barrier to go back in bounds. So the only way you could ever take advantage of the connected maps would be to use Forced Character Movement, that is, using a trigger that causes character movement (Guard in FE Village, "It's Locked" doors, etc.). And I don't believe there are any triggers like this accessible from a map that's connected to anything.

Just in case anyone's curious: All the huts in FE village are connected, and one connects to Blimp's hut, which I believe then connects to Jaguar Ring cave>Raptor Cave>HB cave>Volcano Path cave>Drain cave. Almost all of the Volcano is connected, which is also connected to the Armor salesman near the entrance. The Crustacea rooms are connected. I think the Ivory/Ebon Keep houses are mostly connected, although not in a horizontal fashion. The Dark Forest is pretty connected I think, although it is a very strange and glitchy place to mess around in (probably why Panda fried his one cart), going OoB and going into other entrances causes strange outcomes. I believe all maps roll over eventually (same with the entire row of connected maps) and on a "rollover" map essentially nothing can happen, no triggers exist, attacking freezes the character, spells don't have affects.

assassin17

2014-01-21 10:32:12 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

I wonder if assassin has a list of all areas included in each map ID... that could prove useful

http://www14.brinkster.com/assassin17/soe_guides.htm

see location-list.txt in the ZIP archive. it's not complete, but it covers most places. as the intro mentions, i could use some help filling out the rest.

AsFarAsIGet

2014-01-22 07:37:51 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

The houses on the attraction place are connected with the mungola freak show room, there is an exit trigger in that freakshow room, but its connected to the sidehouse exit since you beam in front of the castle after the cutscene. Cheesy

Assassin17 I'll help you to complete the list and post the results here soon.

Greetings

assassin17

2014-01-22 09:02:00 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

thanks! are you also up for collecting the prize data, 7E/239B through 7E/23AC, in these areas? if not, that's cool. but if so, figured i'd mention it in advance.

AsFarAsIGet

2014-01-22 09:14:08 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Hmm its hard to figure out which areas u alrdy got. I work on a list that i create screen by screen. Ill write a script for snes9x that shows you where you are and which drops are possible or something like that.

assassin17

2014-01-22 09:17:11 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

the intro in location-list.txt talks about what's missing: both ID #s, and descriptions of the places i didn't visit.

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-22 10:48:38 am

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-22 10:44:49 am

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-22 10:43:28 am

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-22 10:41:47 am

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-22 10:01:08 am

2014-01-22 09:34:10 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Ah its in the RAR archieve! I can give them to you soon I think.

p.S.: Yeah i'll also read out the prize data. Hmm i can't find 2 of the listed IDs.

Got most of them, hope this isnt weird and confusing! Wink

MAP ID's inclusive Prizes

!!! For Boss Battles and unusual Screens mostly the quantity changes to 1 for each, the prizes stay the same!!!

09 = 09 = Aegis Fight Area
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 1D, 1E, reduced to 1 Quantity!"

15 = 21 = ???????????

1D = 29 = Veigars Fighting Ground
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10/14 = 1x Nectar 71,43%
1/14 = 1x Currency 7,14%
3/14 = 1x Water 21,43%
"Apparently same as for Market Screen, only with 1 Quantity each"

1E = 30 = Inside The Arena, before Fighting Veigar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 09, 1D, all reduced to 1 Quantity"

2A = 42 = Megataurs Fighting Room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as the Room before the bossfight! Quantities are 1 each."

3D = 61 = Volcano, the Room with the Pipes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10/13 = 1x Petal
2/13 = 20x Currency
1/13 = 1x Biscuit

3E = 62 = Entrance to the Volcano Sewer Pipes, where the raptor shortly shows behind the pot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3D"

3F = 63 = Magmars Fighting Screen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3D and 3E only with 1 quantity!"

4B = 75 = Waterfall Maze, with teleporters and Oglins
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10/16 = 1x Nectar
4/16 = 70x Currency
2/16 = 1x Honey

53 = 83 = Riding the shell down the river to waterfall after magmar is beaten
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3F, Quantity 1!"

58 = 88 = Rimsalas Fighting Room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 06 only with 1 Quantity each!"

61 = 97 = Main Menue Screen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weird Values Wink

6A = 106 = Falling down the waterfall into Act 2, after riding the shell
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3F and 53, Quantity 1!"

6D = 109 = Aquagoths Battle Room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20/20 = 1x Nectar
0/20 = 1x Nectar
0/20 = 1x Nectar

77 = 119 = Ivor Castle - Puppet Show Room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10/13 = 1x Feather
2/13 = 1x Acorn
1/13 = 1x Honey

78 = 120 = Ivor Castle - Queens Room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 77"

7F = 127 = ?????????

The ones with the volcanodoctor you entered are correct.

Ah its in the RAR archieve! I can give them to you soon I think.

p.S.: Yeah i'll also read out the prize data. Hmm i can't find 2 of the listed IDs.

Got most of them, hope this isnt weird and confusing! ;)

MAP ID's inclusive Prizes
[hidden]
!!! For Boss Battles and unusual Screens mostly the quantity changes to 1 for each, the prizes stay the same!!!

09 = 09 = Aegis Fight Area
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 1D, 1E, reduced to 1 Quantity!"

15 = 21 = ???????????

1D = 29 = Veigars Fighting Ground
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10/14 = 1x Nectar	71,43%
 1/14 = 1x Currency	 7,14%
 3/14 = 1x Water	21,43%
"Apparently same as for Market Screen, only with 1 Quantity each"

1E = 30 = Inside The Arena, before Fighting Veigar
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 09, 1D, all reduced to 1 Quantity"

2A = 42 = Megataurs Fighting Room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as the Room before the bossfight! Quantities are 1 each."

3D = 61 = Volcano, the Room with the Pipes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10/13 = 1x Petal
 2/13 = 20x Currency 
 1/13 = 1x Biscuit

3E = 62 = Entrance to the Volcano Sewer Pipes, where the raptor shortly shows behind the pot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3D"

3F = 63 = Magmars Fighting Screen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3D and 3E only with 1 quantity!"

4B = 75 = Waterfall Maze, with teleporters and Oglins
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10/16 = 1x Nectar
 4/16 = 70x Currency
 2/16 = 1x Honey

53 = 83 = Riding the shell down the river to waterfall after magmar is beaten
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3F, Quantity 1!"

58 = 88 = Rimsalas Fighting Room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 06 only with 1 Quantity each!"

61 = 97 = Main Menue Screen
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Weird Values ;)

6A = 106 = Falling down the waterfall into Act 2, after riding the shell
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3F and 53, Quantity 1!"

6D = 109 = Aquagoths Battle Room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
20/20 = 1x Nectar
 0/20 = 1x Nectar
 0/20 = 1x Nectar

77 = 119 = Ivor Castle - Puppet Show Room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10/13 = 1x Feather
 2/13 = 1x Acorn
 1/13 = 1x Honey

78 = 120 = Ivor Castle - Queens Room
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 77"

7F = 127 = ?????????

The ones with the volcanodoctor you entered are correct.
[/hidden]

Grumly

Edit history:

Grumly: 2014-01-22 01:31:37 pm

2014-01-22 01:31:18 pm

Second opportunity : 7E4E9E seems to be your speed. The value is 0 when you are not moving, 1024 when walking and 3072 (3x1024) when running. The perfect pattern for running is when you can keep your speed up to 3072.

Since the value is the same when you run along the x-axis, the y-axis or both, we can say that running diagonally is 41,4% faster than running vertically or horizontally if you want to go to a corner of the map (Pythagorean theorem).

AsFarAsIGet

2014-01-22 01:54:51 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Nice Grumly, but I think this is a value that checks what the boy is doing. I increased it with a code and the boy didnt move faster... Sad

Grumly

2014-01-22 01:56:40 pm

You're right. This value is simply the result of what is observed in screen but fixing the value using Action Replay doesn't change the speed of the boy. I'm working on finding the right adress.

AsFarAsIGet

2014-01-22 02:01:32 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

I also tried to find them, but it seems there are none, at least not in the RAM section... Sad

assassin17

2014-01-23 02:14:02 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

AsFarAsIGet: awesome! many thanks!

Quote from AsFarAsIGet:

09 = 09 = Aegis Fight Area
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 1D, 1E, reduced to 1 Quantity!"

so the town square gets a new location ID for the boss fight? interesting.

Quote:

3E = 62 = Entrance to the Volcano Sewer Pipes, where the raptor shortly shows behind the pot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3D"

does this ID also apply to the other rooms that the sewer pipes can dump you into?

Quote from location-list.txt:

- Waterfall screen where you're plumetting to Oglin Tunnel

does this have the same ID as the actual Oglin Tunnels, or something else?

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-23 06:51:36 am

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-23 06:49:15 am

2014-01-23 06:48:08 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Oh sorry I forgot to mention that the 2nd value is just dezimal. I prefer them over hexa. The format is:
Hexa = Dezimal = Name of the Location Wink

Quote:

3E = 62 = Entrance to the Volcano Sewer Pipes, where the raptor shortly shows behind the pot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3D"

Exactly, those rooms are included there, forgot to meantion it :/

Quote:

- Waterfall screen where you're plumetting to Oglin Tunnel

This Waterfall (in Act2) is on the same screen as the northern area where you are jumping into it. (It's 6B, just looked it up)

The Waterfall scene i mentioned is the one after beating magmar. U first land in a shell riding towards a waterfall and then drop down!
So there are 2 different waterfall maps.

TheAngryPanda

2014-01-23 06:52:43 am

Speed > Safety

Quote from AsFarAsIGet:

Quote:

3E = 62 = Entrance to the Volcano Sewer Pipes, where the raptor shortly shows behind the pot
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Same as 3D"

Exactly, those rooms are included there, forgot to meantion it.

You can visually see this one here: http://www.twitch.tv/theangrypanda1/c/3553566

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-23 06:56:31 am

2014-01-23 06:55:06 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Exactly, panda found a funny after camera rotation there. Wink

Hmm im pretty curious what areas the unknown numbers contain. I think i checked every screen except the secret boss room. Definitely will do some researches here. Shocked

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-01-23 07:20:19 am

2014-01-23 07:19:50 am

Speed > Safety

There's also the island(s?) around the map that look as if they'd have something on them but are never capable of being explored. Perhaps a map was cut out and the address left it that points nowhere? Then again, i have no idea how any of that works, so lol.

one could also be a testing area for developers.

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-24 06:38:17 am

AsFarAsIGet: 2014-01-24 06:17:59 am

2014-01-23 07:29:07 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Yeah i once read about an area called "Bryans Playground", mb its one of the missing ones.

Ok its called Brians Test Ground. Some interesting informations about the game can be found here.
http://tcrf.net/Secret_of_Evermore

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-01 01:01:43 pm

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-01 08:31:33 am

2014-02-01 08:26:08 am

Speed > Safety

Okay, so I've done some pretty exhaustive testing on the TAS with some things, here you go:

Full Blimp Skip + No Invulnerability: This ends up being the fastest simply because the extra frames FBS saves makes No Invulnerability the more optimal choice for the TAS. In RTA, Full Blimp Skip will likely not save you time unless you're feeling lucky with your frame perfect inputs on what is mostly a "blind" transition. What this did reveal though is that with TAS'ing, the difference between No Invulnerability and getting it are basically non-existent, it's within 5-7 frames in favor of either option depending on 2 random enemies. The enemies you'd otherwise manipulate/kill, you already do in the Invulnerability route. Interesting stuff when testing it for sure.

That being said, there's the giant red stamp of "WTF" that is Defend still around. Not taking it essentially gives you a 20s buffer of mistakes. So for future reference, if you're ever behind by 20s in attempts on a No Defend route, reset.**

There's also stuff like timer testing, in which I'd save and re-load to see if anything tried changing at various points. I've tried zipping out of a transition via position address modifications, nothing. They've done a pretty damn good job on their timer apparently, just like their invisible wall barricades around exit points in caves. Sad

More to come, probably...

**What I mean by this:

If you don't think you're capable of achieve a set of completed attempts that are within 20s of each other consistently, do NOT run this route. It's pointless and you're simply wasting time/effort. Does this mean you shouldn't try it occasionally? No. But, you should try just Underflowing Defend/Atlas instead of the full invulnerability for practice.

edit: Just tossing this in here as well. BBMSkip is basically a free 13-20s (depending on previous route) over whatever else you're doing route-wise. I suggest learning it and using it as soon as possible, otherwise you're just wasting effort on sub-par routes. It's at most 2-3 minutes into the game and that's not really that bad to reset at if you don't get it.

Okay, so I've done some pretty exhaustive testing on the TAS with some things, here you go:

Full Blimp Skip + No Invulnerability: This ends up being the fastest simply because the extra frames FBS saves makes No Invulnerability the more optimal choice for the TAS. In RTA, Full Blimp Skip will likely not save you time unless you're feeling lucky with your frame perfect inputs on what is mostly a "blind" transition. What this did reveal though is that with TAS'ing, the difference between No Invulnerability and getting it are basically non-existent, it's within 5-7 frames in favor of either option depending on 2 random enemies. The enemies you'd otherwise manipulate/kill, you already do in the Invulnerability route. Interesting stuff when testing it for sure.

That being said, there's the giant red stamp of "WTF" that is Defend still around. Not taking it essentially gives you a 20s buffer of mistakes. So for future reference, if you're ever behind by 20s in attempts on a No Defend route, reset.**

There's also stuff like timer testing, in which I'd save and re-load to see if anything tried changing at various points. I've tried zipping out of a transition via position address modifications, nothing. They've done a pretty damn good job on their timer apparently, just like their invisible wall barricades around exit points in caves. :(

More to come, probably...

**What I mean by this:

If you don't think you're capable of achieve a set of completed attempts that are within 20s of each other consistently, do NOT run this route. It's pointless and you're simply wasting time/effort. Does this mean you shouldn't try it occasionally? No. But, you should try just Underflowing Defend/Atlas instead of the full invulnerability for practice.

edit: Just tossing this in here as well. BBMSkip is basically a free 13-20s (depending on previous route) over whatever else you're doing route-wise. I suggest learning it and using it as soon as possible, otherwise you're just wasting effort on sub-par routes. It's at most 2-3 minutes into the game and that's not really that bad to reset at if you don't get it.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-03 09:53:03 pm

2014-02-03 08:44:44 pm

Speed > Safety

A small note for 100% route(s):

It seems that Saturn yet again shows that we've missed something in the 100% TAS from forever ago... You can talk to the man in the market that gives you bronze armor (or you turn into a basket/goat/chicken) multiple times. This has implications such as being able to keep the Jade Disc instead of trading it for the Centurion Cape during Market. Now, this initially does not save time, or rather, it doesn't save apparent time. However, keeping the Jade Disc gives you less of a chance to miss and means you don't need as many supplies for the Act 3 market finish-up. This means that the route is now adaptive instead of constant. It also means that the grind for money or expenditure of rice/spice from spinning in a circle forever should be less stressed IF you get the Centurion Cape later on...

Then we come to another little thing that hasn't really been mentioned much to my knowledge. Speed in 100% could be abused if there's a save nearby assuming it works like Atlas does in Saturn's 100% TAS. You use the ability a LOT then go die (would be easy with vipers i'd imagine) and reload the save. The beauty of this won't be seen until the very end of the game at carltron and the evil dog clone, which is super-evasive. Something to look into and research perhaps?

This all being said, there happens to be little interest in 100% right now and as such I'm not going to be routing anything for it regarding these things. The reason I posted this here was so that it can be referenced later on when someone steps up to the plate and wants to run this category.

TAS news is that I'm burning time in 14 minutes still, shortly after that's done the Act 2 video should be uploaded in a relatively quick manner. Acts 3 and 4 will be rapidly done. I'm also typing up very detailed notes of just about everything done in the game on a pastebin I'll post at some point down the road. Shortly after Act 3 is done I'll be starting the 100% TAS as well as another project.

A small note for 100% route(s):

It seems that Saturn yet again shows that we've missed something in the 100% TAS from forever ago... You can talk to the man in the market that gives you bronze armor (or you turn into a basket/goat/chicken) multiple times. This has implications such as being able to keep the Jade Disc instead of trading it for the Centurion Cape during Market. Now, this initially does not save time, or rather, it doesn't save apparent time. However, keeping the Jade Disc gives you less of a chance to miss and means you don't need as many supplies for the Act 3 market finish-up. This means that the route is now adaptive instead of constant. It also means that the grind for money or expenditure of rice/spice from spinning in a circle forever should be less stressed IF you get the Centurion Cape later on...

T[s]hen we come to another little thing that hasn't really been mentioned much to my knowledge. Speed in 100% could be abused if there's a save nearby assuming it works like Atlas does in Saturn's 100% TAS. You use the ability a LOT then go die (would be easy with vipers i'd imagine) and reload the save. The beauty of this won't be seen until the very end of the game at carltron and the evil dog clone, which is super-evasive. Something to look into and research perhaps?[/s]

This all being said, there happens to be little interest in 100% right now and as such I'm not going to be routing anything for it regarding these things. The reason I posted this here was so that it can be referenced later on when someone steps up to the plate and wants to run this category.

TAS news is that I'm burning time in 14 minutes still, shortly after that's done the Act 2 video should be uploaded in a relatively quick manner. Acts 3 and 4 will be rapidly done. I'm also typing up very detailed notes of just about everything done in the game on a pastebin I'll post at some point down the road. Shortly after Act 3 is done I'll be starting the 100% TAS as well as another project.

assassin17

2014-02-03 09:28:21 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

no go on Speed abuse. see Nitrodon's 2014/1/4 post.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-03 09:37:48 pm

2014-02-03 09:36:39 pm

Speed > Safety

I'm not talking about an underflow, I'm talking about getting an extra X% hit rate. Unless I'm misunderstanding something all the previous Atlas Glitch (before underflow) did was use it a ton, go die, then upon reloading you still retained the stats. I see no reason we couldn't do this with Speed in moderation (obviously too much is a bad thing, we know this from underflowing it). So do both glitches operate the same or are there different mechanics entirely being abused? I suppose it wouldn't hurt to just fire up an emulator and go mess with it sometime in the near future.

Nitrodon

Edit history:

Nitrodon: 2014-02-03 09:42:54 pm

2014-02-03 09:40:22 pm

The original Atlas glitch was also an underflow. Use Atlas, save, reload (which involved dying in the TAS since the emulator didn't support reset recording at the time), and the recorded stat boost is still there, but the actual stat reverts to its original value. When Atlas wears off, the boy's strength is underflowed.

That said, early perma-Barrier routes also used perma-Speed at the same time, and that method is certainly viable for 100%.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2014-02-03 09:46:16 pm

2014-02-03 09:42:51 pm

Speed > Safety

Ah, so it's still an underflow, well damn... scratch that idea.

Yeah, but i don't think we can stack perma-speed w/o it overriding can we? I mean the one stack is nice for sure, but can we make it more?

MetaSigma

Edit history:

MetaSigma: 2014-02-04 05:19:37 am

2014-02-04 05:18:18 am

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

You can overstack speed yes, I used to overstack str one or two times in my intial runs. Of course I used to level speed up to level 2 atleast so I got a HUGE boost to hit%. 8x cast in the volcano a few times and dog exit to cancel lag and keep moving. If I remember I believe what you do is cast speed FIRST then cast your pixie dust. Go die with the buff still active and it perma-adds to your stats. Really if you did even a level 1 speed it would increase your hit by 3 to 5 levels which is a big deal late game.

You will need two uses of Pixie Dust however as you'll have to die twice.

TheAngryPanda

2014-02-04 08:12:25 am

Speed > Safety

Yeah, which we decided a long time ago isn't worth it unfortunately. Mostly because of the Pixie Dust that early not really being affordable. Oh well, the other thing still has potential to give us hit% from keeping Jade Disc.