Secret of Evermore (SNES)

2015-04-15 12:47:02 am

Secret of Evermore Diamond Eyes Skip Setup
http://www.twitch.tv/crawek/c/6543488
the dog never sniffed the ingredient!

There are some useless trick funny!

Dog red bull gives you wings
http://www.twitch.tv/crawek/c/6543644
Dont work cause game wait you broke the wall with the axe

Key Skip
http://www.twitch.tv/crawek/c/6543615
Dont work cause guy give you the spell if you have the key
Fuck this game!!!!!!!!!

TheAngryPanda

2015-04-15 12:30:15 pm

Speed > Safety

The no axe in mids thing is really interesting... Sad that it's not working at the moment, but that's worth exploring more for sure. I'll look into that sometime.

The boy getting moved into the key area might actually work in the TAS since you can transfer events via frame perfect stuff (menu buffering does not work for what I'm talking about because it overrides the initial action) and maybe transfer the conversation to the dog from the boy, like how Saturn Skip works, but the opposite. Definitely worth looking into for 100% TAS stuff. I don't think that sort of thing can have any application for RTA though, sadly.

Pretty awesome finds Crawek, thanks for sharing. Cheesy

GreenAmbler

2015-04-15 06:04:50 pm

Axing the wall in the pyramids is necessary for opening the door to Rimsala. Even with walk thru walls and stuff, there is no other way in. Spear is also completely necessary for Collosia even though you can get across the pit without it, but I think that's already been established.

I looked into using the locked doors to get a quicker Fire Power way back but came to the conclusion it wasn't faster, but now that I've reexamined it I think it actually is by up to 10 seconds. The faster route would be: Banquet Skip, Chessboard/Forest/EbonKeep/Gomi like normal, Cutscene with Bluegarden, Run to maze and force the dog into the rightmost room second from the top, take vent to get key and finish dogmaze/jail/sewers like normal, fight Mungola and go to pickup Fire Power on your way back to Ebon Keep. You're essentially just trading the timecost of the Banquet and a portion of the dogmaze (about 1:10ish) for the time it takes to detour after Gomi to locked door screen and trigger forced movement on the dog 5 times, as well as the slow dog walk before Footknight. So as long as you are decent with menubuffering, should be able to reliably save time with this route, assuming I didn't mess up my calculations because the comparisons get confusing.

Axing the wall in the pyramids is necessary for opening the door to Rimsala. Even with walk thru walls and stuff, there is no other way in. Spear is also completely necessary for Collosia even though you can get across the pit without it, but I think that's already been established.

I looked into using the locked doors to get a quicker Fire Power way back but came to the conclusion it wasn't faster, but now that I've reexamined it I think it actually is by up to 10 seconds. The faster route would be: Banquet Skip, Chessboard/Forest/EbonKeep/Gomi like normal, Cutscene with Bluegarden, Run to maze and force the dog into the rightmost room second from the top, take vent to get key and finish dogmaze/jail/sewers like normal, fight Mungola and go to pickup Fire Power on your way back to Ebon Keep. You're essentially just trading the timecost of the Banquet and a portion of the dogmaze (about 1:10ish) for the time it takes to detour after Gomi to locked door screen and trigger forced movement on the dog 5 times, as well as the slow dog walk before Footknight. So as long as you are decent with menubuffering, should be able to reliably save time with this route, assuming I didn't mess up my calculations because the comparisons get confusing.

XETH

Edit history:

XETH: 2015-04-17 02:29:28 pm

XETH: 2015-04-17 02:29:02 pm

2015-04-17 02:28:52 pm

Questions about some charms:

"Ruby Heart:
Decreases Enemy Hit Percentage when your HP is low."

"When" is low? What's the threshold?

"Sun Stone:
Increases Endurance. "

Which value changes?

look at:
http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/snes/soe/shops.shtml
at the armors shop Details, you can read something like this:

"Armor = 10 + L*20, 20 + L*20
Helmet = 10 + L*10
Bracelet = 5 + L*10
Collar = L*50"

What does it mean? What calculation is it for?

assassin17

2015-04-24 10:32:45 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from XETH:

Questions about some charms:

"Ruby Heart:
Decreases Enemy Hit Percentage when your HP is low."

"When" is low? What's the threshold?

"Sun Stone:
Increases Endurance. "

Which value changes?

why quote some random website instead of the in-game text? i dunno which orifice this "HP is low" was pulled from.

anyway,

Ruby Heart: decrease effective attacker Hit Rate by 10. (attacker Hit Rate and target Evade are used to load the actual Chance to Hit from giant data tables.)
Sun Stone: when loading the character's base Attack stat, treat his level as 5 higher than its current value.

XETH

2015-04-24 11:58:42 am

Hello and thank your for your answers.

How did you find these facts?

"treat his level as 5 higher than its current value"

The characters Level, or the characters attack value? Im asking because the characters "Level" seems to be irrelevant in any calculations, doesn't it?

Ruby Heart:
So the attackers hit rate is always 10% lower?

assassin17

2015-04-24 12:58:01 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Level. it might not be in the calculations themselves, but it's used to handle the progression of a number of stats (i.e. it indexes them in tables).

XETH

2015-04-25 08:01:44 am

So the effective result of an attack is loaded from data tables and not calculated? why? this needs much more memory.

Do other "giant" data tables exist?

MetaSigma

2015-04-27 03:14:04 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

So how's this for a day? Crawek drops the time to 1:18:08.7 and then I get a 1:18:08.3 and then HE gets a 1:18:05 3 hours AFTER that :P. So now we're both on a quest for sub 1:18 and the biggest difference is Crawek is VERY good at the Thraxx intro Skip AND the Fire eyes Skip. So basically once I get those down it's gonna be a back and forth fight Tongue

MetaSigma

Edit history:

MetaSigma: 2015-04-28 05:38:11 pm

2015-04-28 05:03:40 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Uhhhhh I just tried the Fire Eyes Skip 3 times on Console and it black screened all 3 times. I even made sure I did it EXACTLY like GA's guide all 3 times and I got 3 black screens o.o. Could it be that this is a Emulator ONLY trick?

Edit: Ok so I realized you have to hold up when you head into Fire eyes hut and advance the text or it doesn't work.

AsFarAsIGet

Edit history:

AsFarAsIGet: 2015-04-30 09:17:41 am

AsFarAsIGet: 2015-04-29 04:29:26 pm

2015-04-29 03:55:58 pm

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

We really should think about implementing this into the run. Execute the red marked position as the dog (theres a crystal laying), this loads +2 into the pickupbooster. After that u move to the clay as usual and pick it up.

This would make space for cutting 2 other clays (for example the one on the right side cliff of the big bug and another one thats not easy to grab mb the one in front of the thraxxx room, if the maggot despawn would still be possible)

Thats maybe the only spot worth using this mechanic at the current route.

CrAwEk

2015-04-30 12:53:27 am

Really nice Asfarasiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii Smiley

TheAngryPanda

2015-04-30 09:12:56 am

Speed > Safety

That's a frame perfect trick asfar, and it's been in the TAS for quite some time now. Also, yes, that is the only spot it's really worth it. The one after big bug probably isn't because of how the dog and boy end being laid out (perhaps with menu buffering, but then we have to consider how long each of those takes).

It's one of those things we decided a long time ago not to mess with until there was nothing else to save time with, such are the Fire Eyes skip thing. That being said, I'd highly advise against using menu buffering on those pickups. It wastes a ton of time for something so early in the run. Resetting there is basically nothing since it's pre-big bug skip/thraxx intro skip. Just my thoughts on it.

AsFarAsIGet

2015-04-30 09:16:47 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

No panda, its not frame perfect. The dog cant pick up ingredients from the ground, but it still runs through the code and the pickupboost sets to 2. All you do is run there as the dog, press B on the spot where the crystal is, switch to the boy run to the clay and pick up 3 of them.

TheAngryPanda

2015-04-30 06:06:02 pm

Speed > Safety

Huh, that's interesting then. It's still the only real place to use it though. Sad

I'll go back over my old notes if I can find them and double check that info though. Most things end up being slower overall because of having to double-back or the AI being too much of a hassle to make it worth it (IE; doubling back after the BBMSkip to get the 2 clay pickup. Another possible thing to do with this is re-route crystal pickups such that you bypass the clay pickup until post-hardball cave, which costs time, but you can pick up 3 crystals instead of one later on. This paired with an entire reroute leads to an older TAS route which MIGHT be quicker, but only by a slight amount.

A problem with the above location (3 clay pickup) is the maggot, which isn't despawnable, and will move into the way. So for the price of 2 pickups (which aren't a lot of time) is:

- Delay for getting the dog there w/o being hit by the bone snake thing
- Delay to bypass the maggot (if it appears, which it will sometimes, reset-worthy possibly/probably)
- Delay to change up the speed to get to the cave initially (which isn't a lot, but we're not working with a lot of free time here either)

So that's basically how the TAS took care of it, and the TAS pulls it off to an extent. But that extent involved a LOT of very specific movements and alterations to the AI behavior via manipulations to make it work even once at a pace that was quicker than normally routed pickups.

That all being said, I'd love to see this brought into the route somehow and actually made quicker than previous routes while maintaining consistency. It'd be nice, but having dealt with it before, there isn't nearly as much room for time gain as you guys would think. That is dealing with non-human input though, which is obviously something to keep in mind.

Huh, that's interesting then. It's still the only real place to use it though. :(

I'll go back over my old notes if I can find them and double check that info though. Most things end up being slower overall because of having to double-back or the AI being too much of a hassle to make it worth it (IE; doubling back after the BBMSkip to get the 2 clay pickup. Another possible thing to do with this is re-route crystal pickups such that you bypass the clay pickup until post-hardball cave, which costs time, but you can pick up 3 crystals instead of one later on. This paired with an entire reroute leads to an older TAS route which MIGHT be quicker, but only by a slight amount.

A problem with the above location (3 clay pickup) is the maggot, which isn't despawnable, and will move into the way. So for the price of 2 pickups (which aren't a lot of time) is:

- Delay for getting the dog there w/o being hit by the bone snake thing
- Delay to bypass the maggot (if it appears, which it will sometimes, reset-worthy possibly/probably)
- Delay to change up the speed to get to the cave initially (which isn't a lot, but we're not working with a lot of free time here either)

So that's basically how the TAS took care of it, and the TAS pulls it off to an extent. But that extent involved a LOT of very specific movements and alterations to the AI behavior via manipulations to make it work even once at a pace that was quicker than normally routed pickups.

That all being said, I'd love to see this brought into the route somehow and actually made quicker than previous routes while maintaining consistency. It'd be nice, but having dealt with it before, there isn't nearly as much room for time gain as you guys would think. That is dealing with non-human input though, which is obviously something to keep in mind.

XETH

Edit history:

XETH: 2015-05-02 09:15:30 am

2015-05-02 01:52:21 am

Quote from AsFarAsIGet:

No panda, its not frame perfect. The dog cant pick up ingredients from the ground, but it still runs through the code and the pickupboost sets to 2. All you do is run there as the dog, press B on the spot where the crystal is, switch to the boy run to the clay and pick up 3 of them.

Despite it is probably not usable for speed runs at all,
this should make it possible to get every ingredient on a specific map with the highest incrementor boost available (without huge runnings on the map, because the dog can be sniff-fixed at the same Location and without having 95+ Count of the specific ingredient for enabling not picking up the incredient because you would have more than 99 of them)
Now ingredients can be gotten much cheaper (and therefore earlier) than before. That means every ingredient on chessboard could be picked up 5x (there is an +4 incrementor, means you will pick up 5 (1+4), it's an incrementor, not a multiplicator)
Amazing news, AsFar

TheAngryPanda

2015-05-02 01:20:14 pm

Speed > Safety

Well if we're going to utilize these sorts of things, you should also be looking into the Character Event Transfer stuff that the TAS uses (which is frame perfect, entirely). It doesn't work for all things (otherwise the TAS would be a fair bit shorter) but you can sometimes talk to someone as the dog as you switch to the boy and get the boy's speech instead. Think of it as the Saturn Skip, but with text/cutscenes/etc... Feel free to play around with where this might be useful, but I hadn't found anything while TAS'ing through the game that seemed significant. Unlike the Ingredient Flag Glitch (which is what asfar brought back up), this has potential uses throughout the game, but wasn't ever fully tested due to how difficult/precise it is and that nothing at any obvious points were found. However, to the credit of the glitch, those obvious points aren't capable of being skipped because of how they function in general (automatically started, prevents input from controller, etc...). Causing interruptions during things like this generally just result in your character (or NPCs) getting stuck on things, which is somewhat hilarious.

Anywho, food for thought I guess. Stuff like the above mentioned cannot really make use of menu buffering, keep that in mind when thinking of RTA, you will lose time menu buffering generally speaking.

Well if we're going to utilize these sorts of things, you should also be looking into the Character Event Transfer stuff that the TAS uses (which is frame perfect, entirely). It doesn't work for all things (otherwise the TAS would be a fair bit shorter) but you can sometimes talk to someone as the dog as you switch to the boy and get the boy's speech instead. Think of it as the Saturn Skip, but with text/cutscenes/etc... Feel free to play around with where this might be useful, but I hadn't found anything while TAS'ing through the game that seemed significant. Unlike the Ingredient Flag Glitch (which is what asfar brought back up), this has potential uses throughout the game, but wasn't ever fully tested due to how difficult/precise it is and that nothing at any obvious points were found. However, to the credit of the glitch, those obvious points aren't capable of being skipped because of how they function in general (automatically started, prevents input from controller, etc...). Causing interruptions during things like this generally just result in your character (or NPCs) getting stuck on things, which is somewhat hilarious.

Anywho, food for thought I guess. Stuff like the above mentioned cannot really make use of menu buffering, keep that in mind when thinking of RTA, you will lose time menu buffering generally speaking.

CrAwEk

2015-05-04 01:00:23 am

Secret of Evermore any% WR 1:18:05
http://www.twitch.tv/crawek/c/6612101

XETH

2015-05-11 12:28:14 pm

Does anyone know something about the armor defense bonus values for bracelets and helmets? What do they mean?

assassin17

2015-05-13 01:53:45 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Total Defense = (character's base Defense for current level) + (sum of equipment Defenses)

if you have Staff of Life, treat current level as 5 higher. if you have Armor Polish, multiply the second term by 17/16.

XETH

2015-05-14 11:24:23 am

hm? But what are the "Bonus"-Defense values only for Bracelets and Helmets? (not vests) Any idea? (it's mentioned in the SoE Balance patch readme)

assassin17

2015-05-14 01:42:26 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

the author only chose to edit Defenses for certain items.

XETH

2015-05-14 01:47:24 pm

"5- Modified the boy defense bonus values for helmets and bracelets,"

hm, could be understood in that way. So there are no so called "Bonus" values for armor types behind the scenes?

GreenAmbler

Edit history:

GreenAmbler: 2015-05-15 02:39:07 pm

GreenAmbler: 2015-05-15 05:37:20 am

GreenAmbler: 2015-05-14 09:06:40 pm

GreenAmbler: 2015-05-14 09:05:07 pm

GreenAmbler: 2015-05-14 09:00:14 pm

2015-05-14 08:52:13 pm

I don't know how well known this is, but apparently you can get the Jaguar Ring from to the Items Saleswoman in FE Village. I think it only will work post-Thraxx unfortunately, but it's still got me thinking. Perhaps the Inn Skip/Zombie Boy strategy would now be viable. Getting Jaguar Ring the normal way is about 32 seconds more detouring than this way would. Inn Skip would save about 18 seconds immediately, although we would need to get some Crystals from the Raptor screen which adds like 9-12 seconds depending on whether you get 3 or 5. Could also take advantage of IFG like Asfar showed, you can get 3 Crystal and Clay both pretty easily, only adding about maybe 7-8 seconds but negating 2 Clay pickups (Jaguar Ring cave would be one obviously)

So it comes down to how much slower it is to just walk with Zombie Boy through Bugmuck than running. If my logic/timing is correct, you'll save around 40 seconds before considering the drawback of no Jaguar Ring until after FE cutscene. There are probably further optimizations that could also be done. Other considerations would be that ZB is invulnerable to attacks (except Thraxx's yell-counter) making certain things in Bugmuck a little smoother. Further testing would definitely be required before I could really speculate on time-savings, I'm a little burned out on all this for the time being.

So, depending on how many Hardball you're using and which ingredient pickups are fastest, route would be something like:
-2 clay pickup
-3 Crystal pickups on Raptor screen
-Raptor Skip/Inn Skip
-Walk past all quicksand, get 4 Crystal gourd
-Walk boy/dog to Crystal Pickup west of HB cave entrance. Dog clicks on Crystal Pickup, boy picks up 3 Crystals and 3 Clay
-2 Crystal Gourd
-Get HB, no ingredient purchases, get Clay.
-Walk rest of Bugmuck, getting most of the same Clays. Could still do BBM Skip, faster using boy's AI than dog attacks
-No Thraxx scene skip, make sure boy doesn't get hit by Counter-Yell or he'll die. Cast with dog, run left and attack to get stuck before the yell knocks you back
-Could still FE scene skip, although it will be less worthwhile. Have to find better setup using visual cues
-Go to left-center Hut and talk to lady

Tried a couple runs, I can get to Defend screen around 10-15 seconds behind Crawek in his WR. So this route might be, at best, about the same as current routes. It pretty much requires 12 HB though. If I can figure out a way to do the Inn Skip better, that could be the difference needed. Currently I have to walk the boy up to Raptor Screen. I get the Water and then 3 Crystal and then exit screen with the dog. Then I die on flower like normal Raptor Skip, but once the boy regains control I have to leave the Raptor Screen and come back, moving downleft upon entering the screen so you can leave right as the screen fades black. The TAS can skip the extra transition by doing a (I think) frame perfect switch, but I don't think you can menu buffer it unfortunately.

I don't know how well known this is, but apparently you can get the Jaguar Ring from to the Items Saleswoman in FE Village. I think it only will work post-Thraxx unfortunately, but it's still got me thinking. Perhaps the Inn Skip/Zombie Boy strategy would now be viable. Getting Jaguar Ring the normal way is about 32 seconds more detouring than this way would. Inn Skip would save about 18 seconds immediately, although we would need to get some Crystals from the Raptor screen which adds like 9-12 seconds depending on whether you get 3 or 5. Could also take advantage of IFG like Asfar showed, you can get 3 Crystal and Clay both pretty easily, only adding about maybe 7-8 seconds but negating 2 Clay pickups (Jaguar Ring cave would be one obviously)

So it comes down to how much slower it is to just walk with Zombie Boy through Bugmuck than running. If my logic/timing is correct, you'll save around 40 seconds before considering the drawback of no Jaguar Ring until after FE cutscene. There are probably further optimizations that could also be done. Other considerations would be that ZB is invulnerable to attacks (except Thraxx's yell-counter) making certain things in Bugmuck a little smoother. Further testing would definitely be required before I could really speculate on time-savings, I'm a little burned out on all this for the time being.

So, depending on how many Hardball you're using and which ingredient pickups are fastest, route would be something like:
-2 clay pickup
-3 Crystal pickups on Raptor screen
-Raptor Skip/Inn Skip
-Walk past all quicksand, get 4 Crystal gourd
-Walk boy/dog to Crystal Pickup west of HB cave entrance. Dog clicks on Crystal Pickup, boy picks up 3 Crystals and 3 Clay
-2 Crystal Gourd
-Get HB, no ingredient purchases, get Clay. 
-Walk rest of Bugmuck, getting most of the same Clays. Could still do BBM Skip, faster using boy's AI than dog attacks
-No Thraxx scene skip, make sure boy doesn't get hit by Counter-Yell or he'll die. Cast with dog, run left and attack to get stuck before the yell knocks you back
-Could still FE scene skip, although it will be less worthwhile. Have to find better setup using visual cues
-Go to left-center Hut and talk to lady

Tried a couple runs, I can get to Defend screen around 10-15 seconds behind Crawek in his WR. So this route might be, at best, about the same as current routes. It pretty much requires 12 HB though. If I can figure out a way to do the Inn Skip better, that could be the difference needed. Currently I have to walk the boy up to Raptor Screen. I get the Water and then 3 Crystal and then exit screen with the dog. Then I die on flower like normal Raptor Skip, but once the boy regains control I have to leave the Raptor Screen and come back, moving downleft upon entering the screen so you can leave right as the screen fades black. The TAS can skip the extra transition by doing a (I think) frame perfect switch, but I don't think you can menu buffer it unfortunately.

CrAwEk

2015-05-16 06:06:46 am

can you make a highlight greenambler with your route plz? Smiley