New Rules (read first post for new changes)

MortyreR45

(user is banned)

MortyreR45

Edit history:

MortyreR45: 2013-05-27 10:07:27 pm

MortyreR45: 2013-05-27 08:26:10 am

2008-07-30 12:44:36 am

I AM FUCKED ANGRY

-Original Text-
* Game modification: Removing or altering a game disc/cartridge/files while the game is running is forbidden. Examples of this are the crooked cartridge trick in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and the CD streaming trick in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. If you're not sure what this rule means, think about it this way: don't mess with your system while playing the game, and don't modify the game itself at any time.

#

* Game modification 'Uncensored Patches':
(System modification: ?)

I think, we had not talk about over modification with a Blood Patches or Language Patches. The User has a Censored Game and use a Uncensored Patch for the Uncut Game.
Blood/Uncensored Patches or Language Patches is a modification !

Is this modification allowed or not ?

>EDIT<
This Question is only for PC Games and not for Console Games.

groobo

2008-07-30 02:57:20 am

boss

Such patch doesn't have any impact on how the game works, so it's allowed (unless it involves naked people running around).

Max]I[muS-X

2008-08-08 12:18:32 am

Well I've been gone for a long time, but I just want to say this.

Mega, if you think the run we did didn't involve skill, go ahead and use AHK and run each map 300x, trying to replicate the tricks you see in our speed run. That will give you a more informed idea of how difficult it actually is. At the present it seems you have no idea what a script actually does, based on your comments about it. Bunnyhopping, flying, wallclimbing, etc are all possible without scripts. In fact, when HL2DQ was originally started, all of the abovementioned tricks were done without AHK. Including the rollermine jump, and lonerville's expert flying, which looked identical to some of the flights you see in the finished project, to name just a few. A few runners were even binding "jump" to the mousewheel, keys, and joysticks at their feet, to mash the jump button faster. It all got a bit ridiculous, and the AHK solution was actually quite a relief, and evened the playing ground between players that had a lot of hardware, and those that did not. Also, if you were to use and just hold the button down, you would not move around very efficiently in most of the game. A lot of other things are required in most instances to actually get places fast, because of the level design.

Bottom line is, it doesn't change the physics of the game, or open up any shortcuts that could be done without it. It does, however, improve the quality of the tricks performed and ultimately, the SKILL utilized. The run was done with the highest standards in mind. And if there is a runner that beats the run and claims to use no AHK, there would be no way to verify it. For all you would know, the only difference could be that they lied about it, and we didn't.

Well I've been gone for a long time, but I just want to say this.

Mega, if you think the run we did didn't involve skill, go ahead and use AHK and run each map 300x, trying to replicate the tricks you see in our speed run. That will give you a more informed idea of how difficult it actually is. At the present it seems you have no idea what a script actually does, based on your comments about it. Bunnyhopping, flying, wallclimbing, etc are all possible without scripts. In fact, when HL2DQ was originally started, all of the abovementioned tricks were done without AHK. Including the rollermine jump, and lonerville's expert flying, which looked identical to some of the flights you see in the finished project, to name just a few. A few runners were even binding "jump" to the mousewheel, keys, and joysticks at their feet, to mash the jump button faster. It all got a bit ridiculous, and the AHK solution was actually quite a relief, and evened the playing ground between players that had a lot of hardware, and those that did not. Also, if you were to use and just hold the button down, you would not move around very efficiently in most of the game. A lot of other things are required in most instances to actually get places fast, because of the level design.

Bottom line is, it doesn't change the physics of the game, or open up any shortcuts that could be done without it. It does, however, improve the quality of the tricks performed and ultimately, the SKILL utilized. The run was done with the highest standards in mind. And if there is a runner that beats the run and claims to use no AHK, there would be no way to verify it. For all you would know, the only difference could be that they lied about it, and we didn't.

ExplodingCabbage

2008-08-12 04:02:09 pm

Just my 2 cents, but I think that ideally there would be some distinction made between scripts that simply make tricks easier, and scripts that allow the player to do things otherwise impossible. The most obvious example is the 180 degree turn script in spiderwaffle's half life run. It is obvious that what he does in the video is impossible using a control scheme set purely from the controls menu. Anything that ordinarily has to be controlled by an analogue input should stay conrtolled by an analogue input, or it makes the video look naff.

Also, we had an interesting grey area in the Bioshock run. Some details may be wrong but I'll convey the basic nature of the problem. Basically, the user.ini file contains several control schemes, a 'Default' one, a 'Cutscene' one, a 'WhenStandingInFrontOfLittleSister' one, and so on. When you enter a cutscene, the cutscene control scheme is activated. Certain commands, like 'Fire Weapon', listed under 'Cutscene' don't have a control bound to them, effectively disabling them during cutscenes. Others just get changed along with the Default set when you change commands in the controls menu. If you were to modify the user.ini file and add in keys for these commands, you could gain the ability to fire during cutscenes, which the developers clearly intended to be impossible. We agreed this shouldn't be allowed, and of course in this particular case it's forbidden under the no modification of game files rule. But suppose that Bioshock had an in-game console, and you could set these commands through there? You wouldn't actually be using cheat commands, but you'd be using commands at a time when the developers intended them to be disabled. I think this shouldn't be allowed. Which suggests to me that a stronger rule than just 'no cheat codes' is needed - but I think any such rule would inevitably stretch to ban the use of the 180-degree-turn command, which similarly isn't accessible in normal play.

I hope that was coherent and people understand the point I'm trying to make.

As an aside, would it be hypothetically possible to write a single huge script to run a level of half life for you, so that all you had to do was press a button when the level loads and sit back and watch?

Just my 2 cents, but I think that ideally there would be some distinction made between scripts that simply make tricks easier, and scripts that allow the player to do things otherwise impossible. The most obvious example is the 180 degree turn script in spiderwaffle's half life run. It is obvious that what he does in the video is impossible using a control scheme set purely from the controls menu. Anything that ordinarily has to be controlled by an analogue input should stay conrtolled by an analogue input, or it makes the video look naff.

Also, we had an interesting grey area in the Bioshock run. Some details may be wrong but I'll convey the basic nature of the problem. Basically, the user.ini file contains several control schemes, a 'Default' one, a 'Cutscene' one, a 'WhenStandingInFrontOfLittleSister' one, and so on. When you enter a cutscene, the cutscene control scheme is activated. Certain commands, like 'Fire Weapon', listed under 'Cutscene' don't have a control bound to them, effectively disabling them during cutscenes. Others just get changed along with the Default set when you change commands in the controls menu. If you were to modify the user.ini file and add in keys for these commands, you could gain the ability to fire during cutscenes, which the developers clearly intended to be impossible. We agreed this shouldn't be allowed, and of course in this particular case it's forbidden under the no modification of game files rule. But suppose that Bioshock had an in-game console, and you could set these commands through there? You wouldn't actually be using cheat commands, but you'd be using commands at a time when the developers intended them to be disabled. I think this shouldn't be allowed. Which suggests to me that a stronger rule than just 'no cheat codes' is needed - but I think any such rule would inevitably stretch to ban the use of the 180-degree-turn command, which similarly isn't accessible in normal play.

I hope that was coherent and people understand the point I'm trying to make.

As an aside, would it be hypothetically possible to write a single huge script to run a level of half life for you, so that all you had to do was press a button when the level loads and sit back and watch?

groobo

2008-08-12 11:59:26 pm

boss

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Also, we had an interesting grey area in the Bioshock run. Some details may be wrong but I'll convey the basic nature of the problem. Basically, the user.ini file contains several control schemes, a 'Default' one, a 'Cutscene' one, a 'WhenStandingInFrontOfLittleSister' one, and so on. When you enter a cutscene, the cutscene control scheme is activated. Certain commands, like 'Fire Weapon', listed under 'Cutscene' don't have a control bound to them, effectively disabling them during cutscenes. Others just get changed along with the Default set when you change commands in the controls menu. If you were to modify the user.ini file and add in keys for these commands, you could gain the ability to fire during cutscenes, which the developers clearly intended to be impossible. We agreed this shouldn't be allowed, and of course in this particular case it's forbidden under the no modification of game files rule. But suppose that Bioshock had an in-game console, and you could set these commands through there? You wouldn't actually be using cheat commands, but you'd be using commands at a time when the developers intended them to be disabled. I think this shouldn't be allowed. Which suggests to me that a stronger rule than just 'no cheat codes' is needed - but I think any such rule would inevitably stretch to ban the use of the 180-degree-turn command, which similarly isn't accessible in normal play.

This would fall under "altering game files", thus not allowed.

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

As an aside, would it be hypothetically possible to write a single huge script to run a level of half life for you, so that all you had to do was press a button when the level loads and sit back and watch?

Yes, it's possible.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]
Also, we had an interesting grey area in the Bioshock run. Some details may be wrong but I'll convey the basic nature of the problem. Basically, the user.ini file contains several control schemes, a 'Default' one, a 'Cutscene' one, a 'WhenStandingInFrontOfLittleSister' one, and so on. When you enter a cutscene, the cutscene control scheme is activated. Certain commands, like 'Fire Weapon', listed under 'Cutscene' don't have a control bound to them, effectively disabling them during cutscenes. Others just get changed along with the Default set when you change commands in the controls menu. If you were to modify the user.ini file and add in keys for these commands, you could gain the ability to fire during cutscenes, which the developers clearly intended to be impossible. We agreed this shouldn't be allowed, and of course in this particular case it's forbidden under the no modification of game files rule. But suppose that Bioshock had an in-game console, and you could set these commands through there? You wouldn't actually be using cheat commands, but you'd be using commands at a time when the developers intended them to be disabled. I think this shouldn't be allowed. Which suggests to me that a stronger rule than just 'no cheat codes' is needed - but I think any such rule would inevitably stretch to ban the use of the 180-degree-turn command, which similarly isn't accessible in normal play.
[/quote]
This would fall under "altering game files", thus not allowed.

[quote="ExplodingCabbage"]
As an aside, would it be hypothetically possible to write a single huge script to run a level of half life for you, so that all you had to do was press a button when the level loads and sit back and watch?
[/quote]
Yes, it's possible.

xXIkuto

2008-09-03 07:49:33 am

Quote from "Max:

I[muS-X"]
And if there is a runner that beats the run and claims to use no AHK, there would be no way to verify it. For all you would know, the only difference could be that they lied about it, and we didn't.

He made a good point here...how DO you prove that someone used external scripts or not? I'm on the script side with just shortcuts, but very against the external 'cleverly binding' scripts that allow things otherwise impossible with a reg control setup. But...how do you prove whether someone just used the in game scripts or external ones? I mean I'm a PC game noob but unless there's a way to really verify it one way or another...people might not trust the validity of a future very good pc run :-/

soteos

Edit history:

soteos: 2008-09-03 04:15:46 pm

2008-09-03 03:51:05 pm

One solution could be to apply the turbo controller rule* to this problem. Or have the player reveal the scripts they used in order to verify that the tricks are replicable.

* “Players that display very rapid firing in runs may be expected to show video camera proof of their button mashing ability.”

Enhasa

2008-09-06 09:27:38 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

People do record proof vids.

cam.wmv Tongue

slYnki

2008-09-10 12:44:35 am

XXY

I read this entire thread. It caused me great pain for the most part, but I needed to muscle through it after I was pointed in the direction of the, "external programs such as Auto Hot Key are no longer allowed" rule. I wanted to be clear on why it was disallowed. Just to make sure I'm perfectly clear on this... I've been working on a single segment run through Half-Life 2 for a few months now. The project began when AHK wasn't frowned upon (in the rules, that is). For the past couple months or so, I've been smoothing out every little thing in HL2 to make sure my run will be flawless, that I will have no problem with any area of the game. Just tonight, actually, I finally smoothed out the entire game. There isn't a single section where I won't be 100% confident in what I'm doing. I know exactly what can go wrong in any area of the game, and made notes to avoid everything that has the potential to end my run on a dime. Yay for hardwork!

Then I come here after posting about my happiness on High Speed Halo, and see that external programs are now banned. But I read through the thread so I wouldn't do anything hasty, and apparently Half-Life 2 and Portal are games that Auto Hot Key can still be used in? I intend to continue using Auto Hot Key for my run, because I've gotten so used to it, and I'd rather not set up some crazed in-game script, or some weird contraption that allows me to spam jump faster legitly just to get around the rules, when I can just use AHK to accomplish exactly the same thing, only easier. My question simply is, when I complete the run, will my run not be accepted on the site because of this new rule, or am I good to go?

Apologies if I'm yanking chains by accident, I just want to make sure I have my head straight before I continue down this road. I'll continue down it either way, mind you, but it'd be nice to have my run on SDA right next to the legendary HL2DQ.

I read this entire thread. It caused me great pain for the most part, but I needed to muscle through it after I was pointed in the direction of the, "external programs such as Auto Hot Key are no longer allowed" rule. I wanted to be clear on why it was disallowed. Just to make sure I'm perfectly clear on this... I've been working on a single segment run through Half-Life 2 for a few months now. The project began when AHK wasn't frowned upon (in the rules, that is). For the past couple months or so, I've been smoothing out every little thing in HL2 to make sure my run will be flawless, that I will have no problem with any area of the game. Just tonight, actually, I finally smoothed out the [i]entire[/i] game. There isn't a single section where I won't be 100% confident in what I'm doing. I know exactly what can go wrong in any area of the game, and made notes to avoid everything that has the potential to end my run on a dime. Yay for hardwork!

Then I come here after posting about my happiness on High Speed Halo, and see that external programs are now banned. But I read through the thread so I wouldn't do anything hasty, and apparently Half-Life 2 and Portal are games that Auto Hot Key can still be used in? I intend to continue using Auto Hot Key for my run, because I've gotten so used to it, and I'd rather not set up some crazed in-game script, or some weird contraption that allows me to spam jump faster legitly just to get around the rules, when I can just use AHK to accomplish exactly the same thing, only easier. My question simply is, when I complete the run, will my run not be accepted on the site because of this new rule, or am I good to go?

Apologies if I'm yanking chains by accident, I just want to make sure I have my head straight before I continue down this road. I'll continue down it either way, mind you, but it'd be nice to have my run on SDA right next to the legendary HL2DQ.

mikwuyma

2008-09-10 07:50:18 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Yes, you can still use AHK in Portal and Half-Life 2.

slYnki

2008-09-10 02:29:31 pm

XXY

Excellent. Thank you for the hasty reply.

Ugi

2008-09-10 05:58:50 pm

Interloper.

I have been watching many speedruns on the site, and in at least some which are interesting to me (Oddworld runs for example) save warping and death abuse would give speed increases. The play in especially the Odyssey run is very polished however, and my faster version would be at the same level (at least) but faster due to save warping and death abuse.

Is such an improvement likely to be allowed?

soteos

2008-09-10 06:33:32 pm

It's allowed. But it probably won't replace the other run.