New Rules (read first post for new changes)

2008-04-02 11:40:58 am

sda loyalist

Quote:

must suffer such a double standard

Double standards are necessary. What is impressive/fast in one game does not always make for a good set of rules for another game. There's no point turning away a run that uses scripts if the functionality could be duplicated without using the scripts. Yes, I know, the HLOF run can't. I would remove it.

I know what the counterargument is to that... "If it can be done without scripts, why did they use scripts?" Every runner here knows how frustrating running is. Anything that can reduce the 'retry count' while still leaving the run still very difficult to complete is welcome. Again, this is only my own view, it does not represent the entire SDA staff.

groobo

Edit history:

groobo: 2008-04-02 03:04:17 pm

2008-04-02 03:02:29 pm

boss

Quote:

- Elimination of save warping and death abuse as extra categories.

Quote:

Actually I'm talking to Mike now. He is EXTREMELY against it for something like Contra or Metal Slug, but is fine with death abuse otherwise. Sooo, I guess we can actually change that too.

Will you keep the rules clear this time and either allow it or not allow it? (if I misunderstood and it's a rule for no matter what game then just ignore me)

mikwuyma

2008-04-02 03:27:00 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Groobo: Save warping is no longer a separate category.

Death abuse is no longer a separate category, but for a run 'n game like Contra or Metal Slug, don't be surprised if your run gets rejected if you die :P.

P.S. You're not going to change my mind on the Contra or Metal Slug condition.

groobo

Edit history:

groobo: 2008-04-02 04:10:23 pm

2008-04-02 04:10:06 pm

boss

Even if it saves time (a lot)?

65

2008-04-02 04:13:33 pm

Quote:

2) Ok, good point. I rewrote the whole section actually.

Much better. It feels much more intuitive now, too. Too bad I already translated that one, so I have to rewrite it, too. Perhaps I should refrain from doing any work until it's finalized and you give us a go ahead. (as in: :slave: )

Megatherium

2008-04-02 05:51:19 pm

yes, america's most blunted

LAG, that doesn't explain why rapid-fire controllers are not allowed. a runner could mash the buttons that fast and with perfect frequency for a while, it could be done, it's just easier with rapid-fire controllers. i've never owned such a controller myself but i bet it would make the dashing in shinobi much easier if you only had to hold down the X button instead of rhythmically press it the entire way through the game. there is really zero difference between those controllers and bunnyhopping scripts. if you're going to allow runners to do a run "using scripts" then, in all fairness, you should allow runners to do runs "using auto-fire".

please note that this is exactly the opposite of what i actually want to have happen. i simply want to leverage this inequity and see if i might be able to get a compromise in another section of these rules before it all becomes finalized.

soteos

2008-04-02 06:51:47 pm

I see the controversy between controllers and scripts as a matter of first party vs. third party. Using a third party rapid fire controller is like hardware modification, and is unsupported by the game companies. Adversely, for many computer games, the ability to create scripts is built into the game by the developers, and is supported by them. That’s how I see the difference.
Following this logic, if there is a first party turbo controller, then it would be allowed to use.

Kibbo

2008-04-02 07:59:30 pm

TIOLET!

By the way, do all these rule changes mean that I can restart my Doom 3 run and abuse the warp from level 1 to 3, and finally might be able to get a sub-1 hour run for that game?

mikwuyma

2008-04-02 08:26:04 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Yes, though that would most likely qualify as a separate category since you're skipping stages.

El_Nino

Edit history:

El_Nino: 2008-04-02 08:40:14 pm

2008-04-02 08:39:43 pm

Adventure Speedruns

Quote:

- Some types of games that used to be banned, aren't now. Fighting games, adventure games, etc. Also "major publisher" has been relaxed to 3rd party retailer, although it was already sorta like this.

There's already my site where lots of adventure games are hosted. www.adventure-speedruns.com
There is a new one under construction, named orion burger. Really nice game.

Enhasa

2008-04-02 11:00:59 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Mega: Really I'm a fan of it coming down to the particular community in general. PC runners of most games by convention allow scripts. Most console runners think turbo is cheating. Perfect Dark runners think OOB is great. Metroid runners use the game timer at the end even though you can game it, so it's not really accurate. I was surprised at first to find out that in the shmup community, not only is turbo not considered cheating, it's actually expected.

Point is, if you tell people to do something different from what they already like to do, you will piss off the people from those communities (watchers and runners), for very little gain for everyone else. So, since scripts in PC runs doesn't even affect you, I think you have bigger bones to pick.

groobo: Did you read the new text? Time saving has nothing to do with it, or we would allow up+down in LTTP.

Quote:

In some games where there is an appeal to having a deathless run, such as Contra or Metal Slug, deaths are considered a sign of poor play quality and will probably lead to a rejection. If you are uncertain at all about producing a run with death abuse, please ask on the forum.

You can abuse death all you want, just like verifiers can reject your run for play quality because of your deaths. For some games like Bomberman 64, nobody will complain (it just saves on easy, boring backtracking), whereas for Metal Slug, Mike will very much complain (it removes interesting weapon management if you can just suicide for refill).

You might remember that AquaTiger had some unofficial arcade runs, and many of them were just spam desperation move (which inflicts self-damage), die, credit feed, win. Many console ports let you credit feed, so you could do this for SDA, but nobody would want to see that. There's almost zero skill involved.

soteos: That would be true, except external scripting is allowed such as through autohotkey. That would seem to correspond with turbo controllers exactly.

El_Nino: I know all about your site. Maybe you are fond of the separation and like your site and its niche just the way it is, but IIRC your site was born out of the fact that SDA was not accepting adventure runs at the time. I don't know if many of the vids are high enough audio/video quality for SDA, but maybe you or some of the other runners might consider submitting to SDA now?

Mega: Really I'm a fan of it coming down to the particular community in general. PC runners of most games by convention allow scripts. Most console runners think turbo is cheating. Perfect Dark runners think OOB is great. Metroid runners use the game timer at the end even though you can game it, so it's not really accurate. I was surprised at first to find out that in the shmup community, not only is turbo not considered cheating, it's actually expected.

Point is, if you tell people to do something different from what they already like to do, you will piss off the people from those communities (watchers and runners), for very little gain for everyone else. So, since scripts in PC runs doesn't even affect you, I think you have bigger bones to pick.

groobo: Did you read the new text? Time saving has nothing to do with it, or we would allow up+down in LTTP.
[quote]In some games where there is an appeal to having a deathless run, such as Contra or Metal Slug, deaths are considered a sign of poor play quality and will probably lead to a rejection. If you are uncertain at all about producing a run with death abuse, please ask on the forum.[/quote]
You can abuse death all you want, just like verifiers can reject your run for play quality because of your deaths. For some games like Bomberman 64, nobody will complain (it just saves on easy, boring backtracking), whereas for Metal Slug, Mike will very much complain (it removes interesting weapon management if you can just suicide for refill).

You might remember that AquaTiger had some unofficial arcade runs, and many of them were just spam desperation move (which inflicts self-damage), die, credit feed, win. Many console ports let you credit feed, so you could do this for SDA, but nobody would want to see that. There's almost zero skill involved.

soteos: That would be true, except external scripting is allowed such as through autohotkey. That would seem to correspond with turbo controllers exactly.

El_Nino: I know all about your site. Maybe you are fond of the separation and like your site and its niche just the way it is, but IIRC your site was born out of the fact that SDA was not accepting adventure runs at the time. I don't know if many of the vids are high enough audio/video quality for SDA, but maybe you or some of the other runners might consider submitting to SDA now?

Megatherium

Edit history:

Megatherium: 2008-04-03 12:24:46 am

2008-04-03 12:00:47 am

yes, america's most blunted

soteos, that definition puts no constraint what kind of scripts can be used since they are all tolerated by the developer. no clip, auto-headshots, etc are all fair game.

enhasa, letting the current community decide the rules with no consideration for what is logical, what is fair, or how the future community might view these decisions is a form of "oppression by the majority". democracy takes no interest in what is right, it's simply a contingency in the event of a mistake to say that we were all mutually guilty.

does no one agree with me that wood-surfing through HL2 is bullshit? you argue against PDZ's runability because the the speedrun would too much resemble the normal playthrough but you place no limit on how much the speedrun is required to resemble the original game? no HL runner even considers looking at legitimate routes since it is the norm of the current community to find the most absurd script-assisted glitches to hax your way through the game.

back to PDZ, in finding the fastest branches through each level and comparing them to different branches, there would be a significant difference in time. no other game is required to route plan the fastest run and then compare a normal play of that route to a speedrun of it.

you should all know that what i'm saying is true. i don't even care what you guys decide, i just want to make sure the future community knows there was someone speaking out against the idiocy of the majority.

edit: i'd like to add that i also support the out-of-box-first rule with the addition that exceptions should be made if a case can be made for it. example: NG+ should be allowed for OTOGI because while speedrunning, you miss 99% of the EXP that becomes absolutely essential later in the game. believe me, i've tried it, the developers not only count on you fighting all the enemies, they expect you to replay levels to LVL up.

soteos, that definition puts no constraint what kind of scripts can be used since they are all tolerated by the developer. no clip, auto-headshots, etc are all fair game.

enhasa, letting the current community decide the rules with no consideration for what is logical, what is fair, or how the future community might view these decisions is a form of "oppression by the majority". democracy takes no interest in what is right, it's simply a contingency in the event of a mistake to say that we were all mutually guilty.

does no one agree with me that wood-surfing through HL2 is bullshit? you argue against PDZ's runability because the the speedrun would too much resemble the normal playthrough but you place no limit on how much the speedrun is required to resemble the original game? no HL runner even considers looking at legitimate routes since it is the norm of the current community to find the most absurd script-assisted glitches to hax your way through the game.

back to PDZ, in finding the fastest branches through each level and comparing them to different branches, there would be a significant difference in time. no other game is required to route plan the fastest run and then compare a normal play of that route to a speedrun of it.

you should all know that what i'm saying is true. i don't even care what you guys decide, i just want to make sure the future community knows there was someone speaking out against the idiocy of the majority.

edit: i'd like to add that i also support the out-of-box-first rule with the addition that exceptions should be made if a case can be made for it. example: NG+ should be allowed for OTOGI because while speedrunning, you miss 99% of the EXP that becomes absolutely essential later in the game. believe me, i've tried it, the developers not only count on you fighting all the enemies, they expect you to replay levels to LVL up.

D A P

Edit history:

D A P: 2008-04-03 02:47:03 am

2008-04-03 02:28:44 am

Rise-up anti-script people, RISE UP!!
Let us rid these inhuman ways!
We shall make unscripted runs if we must! (I volunteer to help with HL2, possibly record.)
...

SDA does not require a 'normal playthrough' first and will accept New Game+ ('maxed-out-stats' type) runs like:
-Crono Cross
-Threads of Fate
-Tales of Symphonia
-Phantasy Star Online
-Vagrant Stroy
-Mass Effect
right?
...

When do you know you have "beat"/completed/finished a video game?
I can only think of two "types" of level setup:
1. "Arcade type" (menu > level > menu > level...) : When the list of levels have all been completed, even the levels unlocked from beating other levels; The credits may only be viewable by selecting to watch them in the 'options'.
2. "Story" type (menu > level > level > credits/return to menu/stop) : When you complete the lineup of levels set for you; you may be able to choose between multiple levels after (or during) a level is completed yet you are not required to complete all of them if you can get to the "end" without playing them (any%).

I have not played many games, so please tell me of others with a different "type", if there are.
Surely there must be some oddities out there with an unclear "end point"?

Rise-up anti-script people, RISE UP!!
Let us rid these inhuman ways!
We shall make unscripted runs if we must!  (I volunteer to help with HL2, possibly record.)
...

SDA does not require a 'normal playthrough' first and will accept New Game+ ('maxed-out-stats' type) runs like:
-Crono Cross 
-Threads of Fate
-Tales of Symphonia 
-Phantasy Star Online
-Vagrant Stroy
-Mass Effect
right?
...

When do you know you have "beat"/completed/finished a video game?
I can only think of two "types" of level setup:
1. "Arcade type" (menu > level > menu > level...) : When the list of levels have all been completed, even the levels unlocked from beating other levels;  The credits may only be viewable by selecting to watch them in the 'options'.
2. "Story" type (menu > level > level > credits/return to menu/stop) : When you complete the lineup of levels set for you; you may be able to choose between multiple levels after (or during) a level is completed yet you are not required to complete all of them if you can get to the "end" without playing them (any%).

I have not played many games, so please tell me of others with a different "type", if there are.
Surely there must be some oddities out there with an unclear "end point"?

Kibbo

2008-04-03 03:48:13 am

TIOLET!

Quote:

Yes, though that would most likely qualify as a separate category since you're skipping stages.

Cool.

Enhasa

2008-04-03 04:51:16 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Ok guys, if you've noticed, all of the rules changes are based around letting people do things that they weren't allowed to before. This would be because one reason for the stricter rules before was to limit the work that had to be done on SDA by limiting the speedruns that could be submitted, which is no longer necessary. I don't think going in the reverse direction is a good idea: that is, telling people that what they have been able to do since day one is no longer allowed.

I'm a populist, so no need to get political because I believe in regulation more than anyone, but it doesn't compare here. Oppression by the majority would be like: majority wants scripts, minority wants to do scriptless runs but they can't compete with the scripted runs. But that's not the case since unscripted runs are protected and have their own slower category. In fact, this is the regulation that allows for unscripted runs.

There is a simple solution for you. Only watch the runs you care about. If you want an unscripted HL run up, make one.

Quote:

you argue against PDZ's runability because the the speedrun would too much resemble the normal playthrough but you place no limit on how much the speedrun is required to resemble the original game?

Just want you to know, you are asking: you are against X but you place no limit on (- X)? Tongue

And the answer is that's correct.

Quote:

no other game is required to route plan the fastest run and then compare a normal play of that route to a speedrun of it.

This is because you can actually control the speed you go through levels in other genres. How can you have a speedrun when every single playthrough of a level has exactly the same speed? Like I keep saying though, give us footage that shows that PDZ would work for a speedrun, and we will accept it.

Quote:

you should all know that what i'm saying is true. i don't even care what you guys decide, i just want to make sure the future community knows there was someone speaking out against the idiocy of the majority.

I already told you I don't like scripts either, but that's different from wanting them banned. I don't like IQ/XQ video either, I wouldn't ask for that to be banned.

And what will this future community think about someone who wanted to do a speedrun where every attempt was constant time?

The new game (out of the box) rule change wasn't put in there so people could do a ng+ at the expense of a ng run, but if that's what happens occasionally, oh well. It's mainly for the games where a ng run is impossible to finish, at all or in a reasonable time. The way it was before, some games could not get on SDA simply because the ng run was impossible, or people made intentionally poor ng runs against their will, which doesn't really benefit anyone.

I like ng vanilla runs way way way more than anything that is easier like ng+, and I assume most people do too, so it is self-regulating. I even forgot you can max stats in ng+ in most games. I was thinking more along the lines of being shorter pathwise or being able to skip cutscenes. I'm probably used to actual good games where ng+ or 2nd loop is harder, not easier.

If the endpoint is in any way questionable, then you ask Mike.

I already kinda wish I didn't put any summary in the first post, because people are reading that instead of the actual pages. Also I probably should have billed this less as new rules as getting ready for translation. My MO wasn't to make the docs more professional, it wasn't to change any rules, it was just "hmm we should get things translated" followed by "then we ought to finalize the docs first."

The rules aren't really changing that much when you think about it anyway.

- new games allowed: people already have their own communities now like adventure speedruns. Maybe it will be a gradual process, but people don't seem too interested yet, probably because the interested people were already turned away. People seem very accepting of bans of certain games like freeware for some reason.
- clarification of categories: just clarification
- save warping, death abuse: once they were allowed as separate categories, nobody does runs without them anyway
- OOB, warping: biggest change, although it doesn't even affect the majority of games, and only one run is eligible to go up now because of this
- alternate modes: people will tend to do ng runs first anyway. And many alternate modes which are allowed, people haven't explored yet anyway.

Ok guys, if you've noticed, all of the rules changes are based around letting people do things that they weren't allowed to before. This would be because one reason for the stricter rules before was to limit the work that had to be done on SDA by limiting the speedruns that could be submitted, which is no longer necessary. I don't think going in the reverse direction is a good idea: that is, telling people that what they have been able to do since day one is no longer allowed.

I'm a populist, so no need to get political because I believe in regulation more than anyone, but it doesn't compare here. Oppression by the majority would be like: majority wants scripts, minority wants to do scriptless runs but they can't compete with the scripted runs. But that's not the case since unscripted runs are protected and have their own slower category. In fact, this is the regulation that allows for unscripted runs.

There is a simple solution for you. Only watch the runs you care about. If you want an unscripted HL run up, make one.

[quote]you argue against PDZ's runability because the the speedrun would too much resemble the normal playthrough but you place no limit on how much the speedrun is required to resemble the original game?[/quote]
Just want you to know, you are asking: you are against X but you place no limit on (- X)? :P And the answer is that's correct.

[quote]no other game is required to route plan the fastest run and then compare a normal play of that route to a speedrun of it.[/quote]
This is because you can actually control the speed you go through levels in other genres. How can you have a speedrun when every single playthrough of a level has exactly the same speed? Like I keep saying though, give us footage that shows that PDZ would work for a speedrun, and we will accept it.

[quote]you should all know that what i'm saying is true. i don't even care what you guys decide, i just want to make sure the future community knows there was someone speaking out against the idiocy of the majority.[/quote]
I already told you I don't like scripts either, but that's different from wanting them banned. I don't like IQ/XQ video either, I wouldn't ask for that to be banned.

And what will this future community think about someone who wanted to do a speedrun where every attempt was constant time?

The new game (out of the box) rule change wasn't put in there so people could do a ng+ at the expense of a ng run, but if that's what happens occasionally, oh well. It's mainly for the games where a ng run is [i]impossible[/i] to finish, at all or in a reasonable time. The way it was before, some games could not get on SDA simply because the ng run was impossible, or people made intentionally poor ng runs against their will, which doesn't really benefit anyone.

I like ng vanilla runs way way way more than anything that is easier like ng+, and I assume most people do too, so it is self-regulating. I even forgot you can max stats in ng+ in most games. I was thinking more along the lines of being shorter pathwise or being able to skip cutscenes. I'm probably used to actual good games where ng+ or 2nd loop is harder, not easier.

If the endpoint is in any way questionable, then you ask Mike.

I already kinda wish I didn't put any summary in the first post, because people are reading that instead of the actual pages. Also I probably should have billed this less as new rules as getting ready for translation. My MO wasn't to make the docs more professional, it wasn't to change any rules, it was just "hmm we should get things translated" followed by "then we ought to finalize the docs first."

The rules aren't really changing that much when you think about it anyway.

- new games allowed: people already have their own communities now like adventure speedruns. Maybe it will be a gradual process, but people don't seem too interested yet, probably because the interested people were already turned away. People seem very accepting of bans of certain games like freeware for some reason.
- clarification of categories: just clarification
- save warping, death abuse: once they were allowed as separate categories, nobody does runs without them anyway
- OOB, warping: biggest change, although it doesn't even affect the majority of games, and only one run is eligible to go up now because of this
- alternate modes: people will tend to do ng runs first anyway. And many alternate modes which are allowed, people haven't explored yet anyway.

Normand Nubcake

Edit history:

Normand Nubcake: 2008-04-03 05:24:14 am

2008-04-03 05:08:04 am

Referring to the save penalty, I always thought a better idea would be to divide the run's lenght by a determinate number. The result would equal the number of segments the runner can use. For instance, if that number is 1, a 45 minutes speedrun could contain up to 45 segments. I know it seems radical and it's probably too late to change this rule, but I don't think TAS-like runs are suitable for SDA. It's just an idea, I know the save penalty will probably never be removed, and most people don't care about it anyway.

Enhasa

2008-04-03 05:14:55 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Yep, a frequency of saves allowed or percentage based penalty would be more fair than a constant one. Too late for that though.

CMiller

2008-04-03 05:32:21 am

Quote:

Of course, the next question might be: do we really need to ban this? The goal of these rules is to make it so someone wanting to compete doesn't have to also mod their game or system, and while this is less intrusive than say, a HD mod, it's still bad for your system to CD stream.

My opinion is that such things should not be allowed. They're actually fairly finicky, and random. I'd bet on different system revisions of the PS2 for example, the result would be different or at least erratic.

What I want to know is what's SDA's stance on backward compatibility. I recall in the Metal Gear Solid 2 forum, that load times (and by extention the game timer by which the run is judged) benefit from playing on the PS3. That obviously isn't fair to those of us who just have a PS2… What would happen if a run were submitted and was faster, merely by virtue of being played on modern hardware?

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2008-04-03 07:04:31 am

2008-04-03 05:44:33 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Yeah, CD streaming is banned.

Like you said, playing on a newer system with backwards compatibility for lower load times is allowed. I know it sucks, and it makes some communities look at us like we are complete idiots (hi RE), but our policy is that people don't want to watch loading, and it's messy to bother with all different categories for each hardware revision. Our game pages would explode.

There is good news though, and maybe this is something I should emphasize more, dunno. It is very possible for a faster run to be rejected. Verifiers don't judge how fast a run is, that is already empirical with the run itself. They judge how well-played for speed a run is. If the time is faster but the play quality is worse, the run will be rejected anyway.

It gets murkier if the play quality is more or less the same and the hardware is better. I wouldn't like it as a verifier, but I can't guarantee to you the old run would get kept in this situation. Really the main thing that prevents this is people trying to not come off as jackasses by doing this to someone else's run.

I know it's not exactly fair (although this would be a very rare case) if the first run of a PS2 game was done on PS3, because that would make it near impossible for a PS2 game to beat its time. But really, that's only an issue for games released during this PS2/PS3 overlap period when the PS2 isn't dead yet.

Edit: This is now in the rules.

Quote:

Do you post everything that's submitted?
Obviously, cheated runs or runs with inconsistencies such as missing segments are rejected. If a run's video quality isn't good enough, such as a run captured with a webcam, that's not posted either. Finally, if the verifiers think that a submission could be a lot faster, then the run is rejected. Note that it is possible for a run to be faster than the previous run in the same category and still be rejected. Perhaps the runner used a faster system or a newly discovered glitch, but otherwise the play quality was worse.

Yeah, CD streaming is banned.

Like you said, playing on a newer system with backwards compatibility for lower load times is allowed. I know it sucks, and it makes some communities look at us like we are complete idiots (hi RE), but our policy is that people don't want to watch loading, and it's messy to bother with all different categories for each hardware revision. Our game pages would explode.

There is good news though, and maybe this is something I should emphasize more, dunno. It is very possible for a faster run to be rejected. Verifiers don't judge how fast a run is, that is already empirical with the run itself. They judge how well-played for speed a run is. If the time is faster but the play quality is worse, the run will be rejected anyway.

It gets murkier if the play quality is more or less the same and the hardware is better. I wouldn't like it as a verifier, but I can't guarantee to you the old run would get kept in this situation. Really the main thing that prevents this is people trying to not come off as jackasses by doing this to someone else's run.

I know it's not exactly fair (although this would be a very rare case) if the first run of a PS2 game was done on PS3, because that would make it near impossible for a PS2 game to beat its time. But really, that's only an issue for games released during this PS2/PS3 overlap period when the PS2 isn't dead yet.

Edit: This is now in the rules.
[quote]Do you post everything that's submitted?
Obviously, cheated runs or runs with inconsistencies such as missing segments are rejected. If a run's video quality isn't good enough, such as a run captured with a webcam, that's not posted either. Finally, if the verifiers think that a submission could be a lot faster, then the run is rejected. Note that it is possible for a run to be faster than the previous run in the same category and still be rejected. Perhaps the runner used a faster system or a newly discovered glitch, but otherwise the play quality was worse.[/quote]

Megatherium

Edit history:

Megatherium: 2008-04-03 06:20:05 am

2008-04-03 06:10:29 am

yes, america's most blunted

Quote:

unscripted runs are protected and have their own slower category.

it's true, this rule protects the possibility of such a run even if that possibility tends towards zero. the current script-addicted community is going to be the first to produce a run and that is going to rip the heart out of an unscripted runner. but as i stated above, i don't care how this comes down in the end, i don't watch these runs because bunnyhopping hurts my eyes.

Quote:

Just want you to know, you are asking: you are against X but you place no limit on (- X)? Tongue

And the answer is that's correct.

so hypothetically, what if you were eagerly anticipating a run of your favorite game and then you watch the run and find out that the runner grabs a piece of wood and flies through the game and all you really get to see is an hour of skybox. no familiar landmarks, events, or enemies? i just hope you realize that you are leaving the door completely open to unforseen regret.

concerning the bunnyhopping mod:

"The speed cap patch was only implemented as far I as know because lots of CS players didn't like bhoping. So when doing a speed run of HL, it would seem most appropriate not to be hindered by such a patch, as it was not intended to affect HL single player."

that is quite assumption to make, and it sets a dirty precedent. you seem to be vacillating between a community consensus and laying down formalized rules. i mean, in light of that reasoning and the recently retracted OOB rule, how could you justify not allowing no-clip (which is accessible through the console without mods)?

Quote:

How can you have a speedrun when every single playthrough of a level has exactly the same speed?

and like i said, there are multiple branches to take within levels, these undoubtably yield different end times (plus the boss time variable). playing normally, you may take the easy, natural flow of the level but in a speedrun, you would have to pull off a series of route changes that can be quite tricky while trying to avoid damage and get enough evolution points to be able to reach a form that can kill the later bosses in a faster time. i think the importance, complexity, and difference between branches is being underestimated. and lets be honest, i'm the only one who would run PDZ here anyway.

you're going to allow fighting games (which i support) but you're still going to exclude PDZ?

Quote:

I already told you I don't like scripts either, but that's different from wanting them banned.

i know, i think you and i are in agreement on most things and i think that you subconciously want me to win the PDZ case. but even if we aren't, you said you were most coerced by bitching. while i realize that i couldn't possibly bitch as much as all the bunnyhoppers would if scripts were banned, i think that i have shown the inequity of scripts vs auto-fire, isolated community concensus becoming SDA-wide rule, and the anti-PDZ discrimination.

if it's just going to come down to "i see your point, but no" at least concede me the moral victory.

EDIT: goodnight Kiss

[quote]unscripted runs are protected and have their own slower category.[/quote]
it's true, this rule protects the possibility of such a run even if that possibility tends towards zero. the current script-addicted community is going to be the first to produce a run and that is going to rip the heart out of an unscripted runner. but as i stated above, i don't care how this comes down in the end, i don't watch these runs because bunnyhopping hurts my eyes.

[quote]Just want you to know, you are asking: you are against X but you place no limit on (- X)? :P And the answer is that's correct.[/quote]
so hypothetically, what if you were eagerly anticipating a run of your favorite game and then you watch the run and find out that the runner grabs a piece of wood and flies through the game and all you really get to see is an hour of skybox. no familiar landmarks, events, or enemies? i just hope you realize that you are leaving the door completely open to unforseen regret.

concerning the bunnyhopping mod:

"The speed cap patch was only implemented as far I as know because lots of CS players didn't like bhoping. So when doing a speed run of HL, it would seem most appropriate not to be hindered by such a patch, as it was not intended to affect HL single player."

that is quite assumption to make, and it sets a dirty precedent. you seem to be vacillating between a community consensus and laying down formalized rules. i mean, in light of that reasoning and the recently retracted OOB rule, how could you justify not allowing no-clip (which is accessible through the console without mods)?

[quote]How can you have a speedrun when every single playthrough of a level has exactly the same speed?[/quote] and like i said, there are multiple branches to take within levels, these undoubtably yield different end times (plus the boss time variable). playing normally, you may take the easy, natural flow of the level but in a speedrun, you would have to pull off a series of route changes that can be quite tricky while trying to avoid damage and get enough evolution points to be able to reach a form that can kill the later bosses in a faster time. i think the importance, complexity, and difference between branches is being underestimated. and lets be honest, i'm the only one who would run PDZ here anyway.

you're going to allow fighting games (which i support) but you're still going to exclude PDZ?

[quote]I already told you I don't like scripts either, but that's different from wanting them banned.[/quote]
i know, i think you and i are in agreement on most things and i think that you subconciously want me to win the PDZ case. but even if we aren't, you said you were most coerced by bitching. while i realize that i couldn't possibly bitch as much as all the bunnyhoppers would if scripts were banned, i think that i have shown the inequity of scripts vs auto-fire, isolated community concensus becoming SDA-wide rule, and the anti-PDZ discrimination.

if it's just going to come down to "i see your point, but no" at least concede me the moral victory.

EDIT: goodnight  :-*

Creuil MS6

2008-04-03 06:46:03 am

Heaven or Hell! Let's Rock!

Quote:

Some types of games that used to be banned, aren't now. Fighting games, adventure games, etc.

Are Racing Games allowed?

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2008-04-03 07:48:28 am

2008-04-03 07:48:06 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

Are Racing Games allowed?

Racing games have always been allowed, why wouldn't they be? Smiley

(I know I read in a thread a long time ago, someone said they were banned, but that person was way wrong.) Plus there are already racing games on SDA, like Hydro Thunder and F-Zero X.

Quote:

the current script-addicted community is going to be the first to produce a run and that is going to rip the heart out of an unscripted runner.

I see your point, although I'd like to imagine this doesn't affect most people. It's like how some people such as sdkess are disgusted by the existence of TAS's and lose motivation to speedrun. I think that is only a tiny fraction of people (it doesn't bother me at all for example), and I think it's the same with scripting.

Quote:

so hypothetically, what if you were eagerly anticipating a run of your favorite game and then you watch the run and find out that the runner grabs a piece of wood and flies through the game and all you really get to see is an hour of skybox.

This already happens all the time to varying degrees, and it sucks, but that's just how it is. I got blue balls so hard from the recent Faxanadu TAS. A lot of people like 16-star M64 more than 0-star. Many times a run is less entertaining than a slower run would be. Many times even a glitchless run skips lots of cool stuff. Since entertainment is subjective, the thing to go by is speed. Of course, the advantage here is that if someone is disappointed by a scripted run, it could spur them to produce an unscripted run. A lot of the other situations are hopeless though. Blame the game designers.

Quote:

that is quite assumption to make, and it sets a dirty precedent. you seem to be vacillating between a community consensus and laying down formalized rules. i mean, in light of that reasoning and the recently retracted OOB rule, how could you justify not allowing no-clip (which is accessible through the console without mods)?

Well, the answer for me personally is just that I wash my hands of anything that was done before I joined. BTW, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but clipping is also allowed now. I should have put it in the first post.

About PDZ, hey I always said, time yourself or record a sample vid and I will agree to it. But you know what, I did forget about evolution. This means that what you do in the bulk of stages actually matters. So I think you're fine, good argument! (PD is still screwed though, no evolution or branches.) Before you're 100% off the hook, please time yourself for one stage with the same branches to see if there's a difference in time based on how well you level up. Don't fudge or I'll ask for video. Shocked

About fighting games though, you know very well that when you try two consecutive runs, you could get very different times, don't give me that. Wink

Quote:

i think that i have shown the inequity of scripts vs auto-fire, isolated community concensus becoming SDA-wide rule, and the anti-PDZ discrimination.

Community consensus does not determine the rules, it is a guideline that we consider out of courtesy. Just today I saw the rules of the SMK 150cc community, that includes "You can not use special items as Mushrooms, Feathers and Stars but all the others Items (coins, shells, bananas and lightnings) are allowed!" I like elegant rules, and this isn't TG (which is truly established by the first person to run any game if you look at any of their rules), so all items are obviously allowed for SDA. I don't think anything could ever change that.

About PDZ discrimination, I think you're joking. Right? Haha? AFAIK we have 2 runs total up on SDA done on Saturn. Almost nobody else will even know what game we're talking about, so how could they hate?

I'm willing to concede moral victory all the time, so you can have it. Wink

[quote]Are Racing Games allowed?[/quote]
Racing games have always been allowed, why wouldn't they be? :) (I know I read in a thread a long time ago, someone said they were banned, but that person was way wrong.) Plus there are already racing games on SDA, like Hydro Thunder and F-Zero X.

[quote]the current script-addicted community is going to be the first to produce a run and that is going to rip the heart out of an unscripted runner.[/quote]
I see your point, although I'd like to imagine this doesn't affect most people. It's like how some people such as sdkess are disgusted by the existence of TAS's and lose motivation to speedrun. I think that is only a tiny fraction of people (it doesn't bother me at all for example), and I think it's the same with scripting.

[quote]so hypothetically, what if you were eagerly anticipating a run of your favorite game and then you watch the run and find out that the runner grabs a piece of wood and flies through the game and all you really get to see is an hour of skybox.[/quote]
This already happens all the time to varying degrees, and it sucks, but that's just how it is. I got blue balls so hard from the recent Faxanadu TAS. A lot of people like 16-star M64 more than 0-star. Many times a run is less entertaining than a slower run would be. Many times even a glitchless run skips lots of cool stuff. Since entertainment is subjective, the thing to go by is speed. Of course, the advantage here is that if someone is disappointed by a scripted run, it could spur them to produce an unscripted run. A lot of the other situations are hopeless though. Blame the game designers.

[quote]that is quite assumption to make, and it sets a dirty precedent. you seem to be vacillating between a community consensus and laying down formalized rules. i mean, in light of that reasoning and the recently retracted OOB rule, how could you justify not allowing no-clip (which is accessible through the console without mods)?[/quote]
Well, the answer for me personally is just that I wash my hands of anything that was done before I joined. BTW, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but clipping is also allowed now. I should have put it in the first post.

About PDZ, hey I always said, time yourself or record a sample vid and I will agree to it. But you know what, I did forget about evolution. This means that what you do in the bulk of stages actually matters. So I think you're fine, good argument! (PD is still screwed though, no evolution or branches.) Before you're 100% off the hook, please time yourself for one stage with the same branches to see if there's a difference in time based on how well you level up. Don't fudge or I'll ask for video. :o

About fighting games though, you know very well that when you try two consecutive runs, you could get very different times, don't give me that. ;)

[quote]i think that i have shown the inequity of scripts vs auto-fire, isolated community concensus becoming SDA-wide rule, and the anti-PDZ discrimination.[/quote]
Community consensus does not determine the rules, it is a guideline that we consider out of courtesy. Just today I saw the rules of the SMK 150cc community, that includes "You can not use special items as Mushrooms, Feathers and Stars but all the others Items (coins, shells, bananas and lightnings) are allowed!" I like elegant rules, and this isn't TG (which is truly established by the first person to run any game if you look at any of their rules), so all items are obviously allowed for SDA. I don't think anything could ever change that.

About PDZ discrimination, I think you're joking. Right? Haha? AFAIK we have 2 runs total up on SDA done on Saturn. Almost nobody else will even know what game we're talking about, so how could they hate?

I'm willing to concede moral victory all the time, so you can have it. ;)

groobo

Edit history:

groobo: 2008-04-03 08:14:18 am

2008-04-03 08:12:29 am

boss

As for the I-don't-like-people-flying-above-the-map thing, you're probably not aware that for some people THIS is the most entertaining part in a speedrun. I always had the feeling that there are two different communities in here. One is like ss, no scripts, no glitches, no nothing to speed things up because it makes everything easier (which is bullshit btw); the other is like do everything to speed things up no matter if it makes things easier or harder or whatever. You're just another follower of the "console runners" cult.

soteos

Edit history:

soteos: 2008-04-03 08:59:54 am

2008-04-03 08:28:32 am

Quote:

it's true, this rule protects the possibility of such a run even if that possibility tends towards zero. the current script-addicted community is going to be the first to produce a run and that is going to rip the heart out of an unscripted runner. but as i stated above, i don't care how this comes down in the end, i don't watch these runs because bunnyhopping hurts my eyes.

That’s like saying a runner won’t make a run because it would never be as good as the TAS, or that a single segment runner won’t make a run because it will not be as good as the segmented run. But that’s not true because people do it all the time. They even use those faster runs to help them in their efforts.

Quote:

so hypothetically, what if you were eagerly anticipating a run of your favorite game and then you watch the run and find out that the runner grabs a piece of wood and flies through the game and all you really get to see is an hour of skybox. no familiar landmarks, events, or enemies? i just hope you realize that you are leaving the door completely open to unforseen regret.

That’s placing entertainment ahead of speed, which is counter to what “speed”runs are about. Here’s a hypothetical for you: if there was a runner skilled enough to fly through Half-Life 2 just like the current run, but without using scripts, would you still be against it?

Quote:

i mean, in light of that reasoning and the recently retracted OOB rule, how could you justify not allowing no-clip (which is accessible through the console without mods)?

Scripts that alter the way controls are inputted is not a slippery slope that leads to commands that change in-game factors.

Quote:

clipping is also allowed now.

What do you mean by this?

[quote]it's true, this rule protects the possibility of such a run even if that possibility tends towards zero. the current script-addicted community is going to be the first to produce a run and that is going to rip the heart out of an unscripted runner. but as i stated above, i don't care how this comes down in the end, i don't watch these runs because bunnyhopping hurts my eyes. [/quote]
That’s like saying a runner won’t make a run because it would never be as good as the TAS, or that a single segment runner won’t make a run because it will not be as good as the segmented run. But that’s not true because people do it all the time. They even use those faster runs to help them in their efforts.

[quote]so hypothetically, what if you were eagerly anticipating a run of your favorite game and then you watch the run and find out that the runner grabs a piece of wood and flies through the game and all you really get to see is an hour of skybox. no familiar landmarks, events, or enemies? i just hope you realize that you are leaving the door completely open to unforseen regret.
[/quote]
That’s placing entertainment ahead of speed, which is counter to what “speed”runs are about. Here’s a hypothetical for you: if there was a runner skilled enough to fly through Half-Life 2 just like the current run, but without using scripts, would you still be against it?

[quote]i mean, in light of that reasoning and the recently retracted OOB rule, how could you justify not allowing no-clip (which is accessible through the console without mods)?
[/quote]
Scripts that alter the way controls are inputted is not a slippery slope that leads to commands that change in-game factors.

[quote]clipping is also allowed now.[/quote]
What do you mean by this?

Creuil MS6

2008-04-03 08:32:33 am

Heaven or Hell! Let's Rock!

Quote:

Racing games have always been allowed, why wouldn't they be? Smiley

(I know I read in a thread a long time ago, someone said they were banned, but that person was way wrong.) Plus there are already racing games on SDA, like Hydro Thunder and F-Zero X.

Really?! That's Great!
I have no money for now, but, when i could buy a cheap dvd-recorder, first i'll give a try for my favorite Racing Game, Sega Rally.

And i was agree about HT and FZ-X, but i meant Racing Games with cars or motorbikes (ManxTT :-*)