Roll Eyes
Lips Sealed
123 ->
List results:
Search options:
Use \ before commas in usernames
So.  I'm planning on speed running this game single segment at some point in the near future.  I guess this thread is to discuss strategy, even though the best strategy for this game is to just not play it at all.

There really aren't any real time-savers to speak of, since I need a pretty decent amount of power-leveling to even stand a chance at killing the bosses.  I will likely get all/most of the equipment in this game because it is all pretty much just on the way through the dungeons.  The only real strategy I'm considering at the moment is buying a health potion in town so I don't need to get it in the Gold Cave for the first quest, but I honestly think that navigating to the "Weapon Shop" to buy the potion in town takes about the same amount of time as getting the health potion in the Gold Cave.  I'll probably just play it the "intended way" because I can kill enemies en route and level.

The only difficult part about this game is going to be the boss battles.  As I am doing my "refresher playthrough", I'll try to develop some safe strategies for some of these battles and post them below.  As of now, I only really have an idea for the first four bosses.

Boss strats:

Samson/Earthquaker:  If I just take the first earthquake and get stunned, I remember being able to just run straight up to him and trap him in the infinite combo.  For some reason, I remember not being able to do that if I jumped over the first EQ, but I'll test it a bit more.

Natela:  If you stand to the side, Natela will only shoot fireballs at you which you can safely jump over.  Once you stand in front of it to attack, it will swoop to the bottom of the screen and bring the pain.  I remember having to fight Natela by setting up my vertical position will to the side, and then charging in to the center during one of the fireball attacks, squaring up and swinging a few times, and then retreating back to the side before it charges.  It is completely safe, but also very time consuming.

Eardon/Turdlecano:  Pretty easy.  Just stay close but not close enough to get stomped on, and just wait for his head to appear.  He's really not difficult at all as long as I don't rush him.

Duma:  Stand at the bottom to lure his hands, and then just bullrush him with the Power Ring and he falls in 3-4 hits.

That's good enough for now.  I don't even expect any responses in this thread since I doubt anybody has even played this game.
Thread title:  
Everybody's favorite monster
Words can't describe this game
Edit history:
mikwuyma: 2010-11-11 01:50:08 pm
My feelings on The Demon Rush
About Natela, it's possible to hit her (it?) while she shoots fireballs, because you can jump over the fireballs. You'll still have to get out of the way eventually ( I think after 2 or 3 salvos) when she charges, because all of the bosses in Lagoon are manlier than you, even the ones with feminine names!

Turdlecano is not easy. Sad
Quote from mikwuyma:
About Natela, it's possible to hit her (it?) while she shoots fireballs, because you can jump over the fireballs. You'll still have to get out of the way eventually ( I think after 2 or 3 salvos) when she charges, because all of the bosses in Lagoon are manlier than you, even the ones with feminine names!

Turdlecano is not easy. Sad

Yea, when I stream this game this weekend, I'll have to check up again on her fireball pattern.  I know she'll always shoot them when you're off to the side, but I don't remember if she continues when you move in to strike.  I thought that once you start attacking she will charge, but I might be imagining that.

Turdlecano is pretty easy.  Wink
100% runs=great to watch
I'd enjoy watching a proper run of it, as the TAS thing I vaguely remember from YEARS ago was nifty at the time.

Micro sword of justice go~
I was at Philips Castle in one of my saves, so I went ahead and finished up the castle and got to Natela.  This was a big concern for me since I remember her being a really huge problem in the past, but I think I found a way to kill her reliably.  I just did it twice in a row, so it should be ok after a bunch of practice.

It seems she shoots fireballs in groups of 6.  After she shoots 6, she'll pause for just a little bit before starting another round.  I can manipulate her to start shooting fireballs at the beginning by running to the left a bit and halfway up the screen.  Once I know the beginning of her round (sometimes the first round is only 4, 5, or 6 so I need to wait for the pause the first time), I can time my attack.  I have to jump in over the second fireball (let the first fireball go by), and then align myself vertically during the third fireball and start attacking.  A fourth fireball will always come out, regardless of sword timing, but if I time the jump correctly to dodge that, I am home free.  She can then be infinited without ever attacking again.  The trick is just not panicking during this, and timing the jump over the fourth fireball correctly, since each hit frmo the sword slows her down slightly.

The pattern is very reliable though, assuming I don't mess up.  I only get one shot at it, though.  If I miss the infinite and her health is low enough (meaning I mess up after I set up the infinite correctly), then there will never be a pause between fireballs.  She will just shoot them if you are to the side, and ram you if you are beneath her, making it an unwinnable battle.  There are no safe spots where I can attack her freely like some other bosses.  As far as I know, it needs to be done in one combo.
Waiting hurts my soul...
woohoo! Lagoon! Just do what the TAS does. Wink
SEGA Junkie
And just watch that one cutscene rather than skipping it. You know you want to.
Quote from mike89:
And just watch that one cutscene rather than skipping it. You know you want to.

It's unskippable.  The game knew how good it was.
Casually playing through today.  Got to Ella, and realized that she's impossible at my current level.  I am heading out the door at the moment, so I'll maybe elaborate later with boss strategies, but here were my levels when I reached the bosses:

Natela: Level 7
Turdlecano: Level 11
Duma: Level 16!
Thimale: Level 18
Ella: Level 20

None of these bosses were an issue at all.  I skipped a lot of enemies and most of the treasure.  I will be getting all armors and all weapons just because I absolutely need to, no question.  Fortunately, they are all along the way.  The enemies in Duma's castle are super easy and give decent experience so I killed nearly all of them, which is why my level was so "high" there.

The only boss I am really concerned with is Ella.  Level 20 is very low for her fight, so I might go out of the way in the ice cave to get the Bright Stone and kill a bunch of enemies along the way.  I more or less just grabbed the Elixer there and went straight for Bad Mr. Frosty, but I could stand to gain a level or two more there.  Bad Mr. Frosty himself isn't too bad, though.  I got pretty good at killing the frozen octopus drones without getting hit, and at level 18 I have enough health to just stand at the top and mash the attack button to win.  Anything >18 should be an easy KO as long as I'm not too stupid about it.  Duma is a pushover and Turdlecano is very easy as long as I don't try to rush it.  I also fought him without the third armor, so getting that during the speed run will help a bunch.

I didn't have enough money to buy the third armor when I first entered Voloh, so I am going to try something new here.  I'll buy a health potion in the first town and then open the chest with the health potion in the gold cave, since it will be 350 gold instead.  I was short of buying the armor by 200 gold, so that ought to guarantee that I have enough (maybe).  We'll see during the next run.  I also don't need armor for Samson and I get new armor in Philips Castle for Natela, so that's an easy sacrifice.

More to come later, maybe.  Bye for now!
Professional Second Banana
This I gotta see.
Ok.  Well, I ran through the entire game today from start to final boss rush.  I forgot to buy the armor and shield before Dwarf Cave, so I guess money is not an issue at all.  Instead I'll just buy an elixir with my vast wealth for some security on Turdlecano.  I apparently don't need the armor/shield.

I spent some more time leveling in the Ice Cave before fighting Thimale so that I could fight Ella at level 22 instead, and that helped a lot.  I am not really concerned about Thimale at all, and Ella died in like 5-6 attempts.  If I fought her at one level higher, it would be super easy I think.  It's a much more manageable fight at that level.  Battler is really easy since there's a safe spot at the top and I can just stall him out.

The final boss rush is impossible to do on the first shot, though.  I did it at level 28.  I can manage the first two bosses no problem after some practice.  Zerah is a strange fight.  I want to kill him from the side so he dies at the far right of the screen so I can kill Thor form 1 really easily.  If Thor pushes me away, I am in a lot of trouble.  The bird form of Thor is actually very easy as long as I don't die at the very beginning of the fight (Life Ball would help there, but I need that for Ella).  Final Red Gargoyle is pretty much unbeatable though.  He does way too much damage and he's way too unpredictable for me to have a chance.  I don't do enough damage (he takes nearly 30 hits at the level I think).  I am just unsure.  If I can't find a better way to kill him and not insta-die on Thor v2.0, then I can't run this SS.  All the other bosses are ok, but those two are not at all.
Ok.  Another update.

I thought of a few new strategies for the boss rush, and I gave it a few shots just now.  I ended up beating the game on my fifth attempt, and all of them made it to Red Gargoyle except for one which died on Human Thor because of some experimental strategies.  Here is the approach for these battles:

Gargoyle Cage:  Use Natela timing to kill.  Jumping attacks, basically.  I normally get hit a few times somehow, but it's no big deal.

Grey Gargoyle:  Cure at the beginning of the fight if I took damage.  Basically, get to the left of the gargoyle (lure him to the right first if needed), and align myself vertically so I can hit him.  He'll just drift over and I can begin hitting him before he swings his whip arm.  I can either infinite him and kill him there, or just take my time and only get a few hits each time.  The infinite is easier though.

Zereh:  LOL.  Just run up to him, pin him against the wall, and attack.

Human Thor:  Stay facing upwards and don't move at all.  I'll get hit a whole ton, but I'll be recoiled back into the front doorway.  It's easiest to approach him from the bottom so this is good.  I take damage, but it only costs ~20 MP of the Curing Ring to recover that.  Anyways, I can either try to slip in without damage, or just walk up a bit when it's safe and then face downwards so I'll be recoiled directly into Thor.  The latter is usually harder, but there is a neat combination of the two strats that I can use.  I can get recoiled into a safe spot about halfway towards Thor.  Then when it is safe, I just move in and crush him.

Bird Thor:  Killing Human Thor from beneath means I am facing upwards and will be recoiled downward.  Just start the battle by mashing the jump button so I only get hit by the bird itself and not a swarm of projectiles and I will be recoiled into a safe spot.  Commence Curing Ring, find my 'safe spot' and then switch to Power Ring.  It cuts the time of this battle down by a HUGE margin, and I rarely ever get hit by Bird Thor after setting up anyways, so there's no worry.  At the very worst, I still have an Elixir that I can use during this fight, since it doesn't help much vs Red Gargoyle (no time to react, and the healing is insignificant).  This is one of the more consistent and easier fights, IMO.

Red Gargoyle:  Yea...this battle is not easy at all.  For his first teleport, I think I just stand in place and take the hit, the 50% health loss, and get recoiled to safety.  Whenever I tried to run to the side to dodge, I mistimed it and was insta-killed.  50% heal with Curing Ring only costs ~20 MP anyways, so that's fine.  Anyways, this boss always pauses a bit before he teleports, and he'll always teleport a little above you, never on top of you.  Therefore, wait for the pause, and then when he teleports, just walk right a little to dodge the whip hit.  I can either choose to attack him from below as he moves down towards me, or I can quickly run down and left to use the same strategy as Grey Gargoyle.  Red won't move as much to the side before he teleports sometimes, so I still need to be cautious, but that generally works, IMO.  I don't think Red can be infinited, but he can be semi-infinited.  It slows him down a lot, for sure.  I killed him in three semi-infinites when I beat the game, and I'm confident I could do it again.  I have full HP/MP, and a Bright Stone in reserve for this battle (maybe an Elixir too), which I feel is more than enough as long as I can keep my cool and not rush the battle.

So.  It seems I have a strategy for every boss except for Ella.  If I can make it reasonable to get to level 22 before I fight Ella, I think there is a good chance of SSing this game.  The final boss rush is not so threatening to me anymore, if I practice it enough.  I'm not sure when I'll have the time to finish planning and actually do attempts, but I will give it my best shot.

Does anybody want to chip in for a bounty of this to motivate me some more?  Wink
sure i'll put a bounty up:

50 environmental brownie points for a speedy removal of muddy water.
YEHS!  I love environmental brownie points!
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
I will contribute 50 anti-dollars to the bounty. Get Actraiser 2 done!
Haha.  Actraiser 2 is first.  Don't worry.  Wink
that Metroidvania guy
ok shiner i will take the 50 dollars so that pj doesnt run lagoon so soon. thank you.
thanks for giving rom 50 dollars shiner so that he can in turn give it to me once i beat him in the belome challenge Tongue
Edit history:
PJ: 2011-01-26 02:58:05 am
Ok, I'm in the middle of another practice run at the moment.  I just beat Turdlecano, and my time is around 52 minutes.  That's a lot slower than I would like at this point.  However, I did have quite a few deaths and "standing-around time" in Dwarf Cave, trying to figure out a safe route through there.  I think I finally have one, though.  I also had the shittiest possible pattern for Turdlecano.  He took me like 4 minutes to kill.

I beat Samson on my first try at level 3, around 9 minutes into the run.  That's a pretty good time for that section.

Natela took two tries at level 7.  I am rather disappointed in the first death, but it was my fault.  I skipped the Large Shield because I was planning on getting the gold chest in Philips Castle (which I did), and then buying the Sonic Armor in Voloh.  I thought the Sonic Armor was like 1200 gold, but it is actually 1800 gold.  That amount is really not feasible to get at all.  I think if I buy the health potion in the first town and get the health potion chest, it is supposed to be 350 gold, and then I can pick up some more chests with gold in the prison of Philips Castle for another....~300 I think, but that still might not be enough to buy the Sonic Armor.  Sonic Armor increases movement speed, which is really awesome, but I just don't think I can buy it.  It'd take so much time to accumulate the money to buy it.  I'll try the above strategy on my next playthrough and see if it'll give me enough money.

Anyways, without the Large Shield, Turdlecano kills me in 2 hits at level 10.  That's pretty bad.  I don't want to spend any more time leveling to 11 in there because it's frankly not worth it.  If I can't find a way to buy Sonic Armor, I'll pick up the Large Shield in Philips Castle.

That is all for now.  Tompa said he's going to try to figure out the pattern on Ella (if there is one!), which is why I'm playing through it again at the moment.  If he comes up with anything, I will definitely post it here (or he will).  As of right now though, the plan is to level up to 20 in the Ice Cave and then proceed as normal.  That'll get me to level 21 against Ella which gives me a pretty good chance of victory.  Definitely not 100%, but maybe 30%.  Level 22 would be a huge improvement still, but it takes too long to level that much.

Edit:  Checking the TAS, there is no way my timing was accurate.  I was just using my computer clock, but they beat Samson after like 9:50 or so.  I definitely did not beat him faster than the TAS, unless they took a really dumb route through the cave or something.  There's just no way.
TURDlecana is a thing?

Good luck with this. Nothing to contribute, but I might watch it.
Nah, Turdlecano is just a fake name we made up for the third boss.  His real name is EARDON, but Turdlecano suits him much better.

I played up to/past Ella just now on the practice file.  Found a good route for leveling in the Ice Cave, and I kind of lost track of time there.  I accidentally leveled to 21 IN the Ice Cave, when that's normally my benchmark for Ella.  Thimale died so fast because level 21 is OP for him.  Went to Ella and killed her on my first try.  In 5 attempts, I didn't lose a single time.  Level 22 is definitely easy mode against her, no question.  If things are looking really bad for the run, I could definitely just spend the extra 3-5 minutes to gain that extra level so my chances of winning against her are 100%.  It's not very manly to do that, but it might have to be done.  We'll see.
Great news everybody!  Today I did a stream of low% Lagoon (no, this is definitely not the great news), which was mostly disastrous.  However, during my 2 hour war against Ella, the stream was able to help me find a pattern to her teleporting!  I need to give huge props to them for counting off how many times she teleports before a pause on almost every attempt.  Anyways, when I reduce her health to below half (usually around 40%), she will pause at some point.  This is when I begin my counting.  The pattern is 9-3-9-7-7-9-9-3, where the number is the number of teleports before her next pause.  It just repeats after it finishes a cycle.  It seems to be constant.  It was the same for every attempt on that low% file, and checking the bonus stream footage, it was the same there also.

I am very confident that Ella will give me no problems anymore.  In the low% stream, after we figured out her pattern, nearly every attempt was taking her to very low health, and that is with weapons doing 2 damage (so she needs 128 hits, as opposed to like....the 50 she normally needs), no armor, no shield, and no Elixir.  With all the extra security present in a real run, I am nearly positive that I can kill her at any level above 19.  21 and 22 are no problem at all, but I'm unsure about 19 or 20.  In my next practice run, I'll see how it works out at 19.

The issue now is Snowball Monster.  My previous strategy was to plant my power-leveled self on the top of the screen and trade hits with him.  At lower levels, I don't think that will work very well.  I could sacrifice my Elixir for that fight, and then hope to kill Ella with just Life Ball (which is very reasonable at level 20+), but I don't think I want to do that.  I'd ideally like to find a better way to fight him, but I don't think there is one, unfortunately.  I am way better at killing the frozen octopus monsters without getting hit now after the low% practice, but the boss himself still presents issues.  Fortunately, I think he is now the biggest threat to my run, instead of Ella.  Needs more practice!

More good news, I bought a DVD recorder today so I can stream actual attempts.  When it arrives, I will be streaming all Lagoon attempts.  SS any%.  I just continue to practice until then.  So excited!
Everybody's favorite monster
This is one of the sexiest things i have ever heard
SGL Scrublord
I am filled with shock and awe that you guys and gals cracked Ella's pattern. But it serves her right for ignoring the rules of having an attack animation, #@$@%^ing witch.