Kirby Nightmare in Dreamland (100% v12

2008-04-29 12:03:28 am

Congratulations on a great run! I'm especially glad that you demonstrated the awesome power of Ball more than once....

Your comments were a very nice read, too. I've had some old family & friends die in the past few years, too.

Now even though sparkkirby mentioned it, I've got to give my opinions on the control matter too:

First of all, to show I'm not completely biased, I will say that Kirby is a lot less sluggish in the GBA version. Most of this has to do with his crazy midair acceleration -- on the NES, you can only accelerate to walking speed in midair (unless you entered the air with higher speed, say from a running jump). GBA kirby actually moves faster in midair than on the ground (at least in Amazing Mirror according to TAS hackers; this game has similar physics, so I'm assuming it's the case here).

Also, the underwater spout is much better.

But that's about it. Here are the issues I have with GBA Kirby:
1) Slight lag between pressing up and actually puffing up to start flying. If you only tap up, it won't even register.
2) Kirby seems to slide way too much. At the very least, I find myself accidentally bumping into bosses while using a close-range attack much more often than in the NES game.
3) Personally, I hate it when Kirby's slide attacks rebounds off of enemies instead of going through them.
4) I actually find Kirby's mid-air acceleration to be too good -- sometimes I get messed up with how fast he can turn (especially after, say, a rebound from a slide). This is probably because his midair deceleration when you press nothing in midair is so slow.
5) Some of the momemtum tricks are gone on the GBA. For example, sliding off of the edge of a ledge and jumping/transforming into a Ball to maintain the extra speed. Similarly, getting a speed boost when running down a slope and jumping before it flattens out to keep the extra speed.

Now, I was going to mention that most attacks/abilities now have start-up lags, but that's really going more into a buff/nerf discussion that I think is off-topic *cough*theyruinedice*cough*.

After all of this, I'm still glad you chose to run the GBA version. Any runs of the NES version would have to make use of that stupid, boring UFO glitch.

Congratulations on a great run!  I'm especially glad that you demonstrated the awesome power of Ball more than once....

Your comments were a very nice read, too.  I've had some old family & friends die in the past few years, too.

Now even though sparkkirby mentioned it, I've got to give my opinions on the control matter too:

First of all, to show I'm not completely biased, I will say that Kirby is a lot less sluggish in the GBA version.  Most of this has to do with his crazy midair acceleration -- on the NES, you can only accelerate to walking speed in midair (unless you entered the air with higher speed, say from a running jump).  GBA kirby actually moves faster in midair than on the ground (at least in Amazing Mirror according to TAS hackers; this game has similar physics, so I'm assuming it's the case here).

Also, the underwater spout is much better.

But that's about it.  Here are the issues I have with GBA Kirby:
1) Slight lag between pressing up and actually puffing up to start flying.  If you only tap up, it won't even register.
2) Kirby seems to slide way too much.  At the very least, I find myself accidentally bumping into bosses while using a close-range attack much more often than in the NES game.
3) Personally, I hate it when Kirby's slide attacks rebounds off of enemies instead of going through them.
4) I actually find Kirby's mid-air acceleration to be too good -- sometimes I get messed up with how fast he can turn (especially after, say, a rebound from a slide).  This is probably because his midair deceleration when you press nothing in midair is so slow.
5) Some of the momemtum tricks are gone on the GBA.  For example, sliding off of the edge of a ledge and jumping/transforming into a Ball to maintain the extra speed.  Similarly, getting a speed boost when running down a slope and jumping before it flattens out to keep the extra speed.

Now, I was going to mention that most attacks/abilities now have start-up lags, but that's really going more into a buff/nerf discussion that I think is off-topic *cough*theyruinedice*cough*.

After all of this, I'm still glad you chose to run the GBA version.  Any runs of the NES version would have to make use of that stupid, boring UFO glitch.

sparkkirby

Edit history:

sparkkirby: 2008-04-29 01:13:25 am

2008-04-29 01:10:59 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I agree with that. That UFO glitch sucks. The TAS could be a whole lot more fun.

I actually hadn't noticed the jump difference. There were a few changes in the remake that really bugged me.

As with all remakes, they have to dumb it down. All the hidden rooms have visible doors now. The NES made you look for them.

Backdrop's mechanic's being changed to the mechanics of Suplex in Kirby Super Star.

Attacks being weakened (specifically throw)

Ball's mechanics being changed. With the new mechanics, all the rooms that ball was useful in in adventure will kill you if you take ball in KiDL.

There's more, but like you said, it's not important. I'm scared at how much they will dumb down The Great Cave Offensive in the Kirby Super Star remake for DS.

Oh, and I agree that the Kawasaki sound effect game is really hard in KDL3. The 3rd mini game where you have to count the Gordos is really hard too.

getter77

2008-04-29 04:42:36 am

100% runs=great to watch

Great run is great. Excellent work! 8)

Serris

2008-05-02 10:17:15 pm

This run made me pick up Meta Knightmare! again. Has anyone given this a try? Three HP and slippery controls - I can't even beat 50 minutes without dying. What would be a reasonable any% time? I'd love to see how low a TAS could get.

Serris

2008-05-13 10:49:36 am

I just noticed there's an update for Kirby's Adventure on VC, and downloaded it. What does it do? After playing through a few levels, it seems there's a lot less lag, but that might be my imagination. Sorry for the slight off-topicness and maybe living under a rock, but if lag has indeed been reduced, the original might actually be speedrunnable now.

Sir VG

Edit history:

Sir VG: 2008-05-13 04:20:40 pm

2008-05-13 04:19:53 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote:

I just noticed there's an update for Kirby's Adventure on VC, and downloaded it. What does it do? After playing through a few levels, it seems there's a lot less lag, but that might be my imagination. Sorry for the slight off-topicness and maybe living under a rock, but if lag has indeed been reduced, the original might actually be speedrunnable now.

An update for a VC game? That's kinda interesting...I'll have to go check it out. Thanks for the news.

(Granted if I can get my wife off of the Wii, since FFCC: MLAAK came out...)

Serris

2008-05-13 04:36:38 pm

Yeah, I haven't even gotten any kind of notification (which would make sense since I downloaded the game and am obviously interested in updates), I just skimmed through the NES library and noticed a tab above Kirby's Adventure, which is usually saying "New!" for new games, but instead it said "Update!", and the lower right corner said "Downloadable" instead of "Downloaded". It's the European catalog, btw.

Sir VG

2008-05-13 08:46:26 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

It's a European only thing than, because the US catalog doesn't have it. I remember a couple other European games having updates, mainly for other issues. I think Castlevania IV had an update to fix an issue with composite display.

Grassini

2008-05-16 05:51:59 pm

have you used the parasol for flying faster?you can cancel the undesired swings by floating spitting and then swinging again(its amazingly fast)!btw HI its my first message here!

neskamikaze

2010-01-29 09:28:40 am

Thread revival time!

Ok, a few weeks ago I picked up Meta Knightmare and have been working on it since then, and came up with a time far better than I have seen anywhere else. I recorded a 36:56 yesterday, when the lowest I've seen is 39:xx. This was a minute under my previous fastest time and I'm pretty happy with it.
The catch: it has several deaths in it. However, I always have several deaths and this is the fewest I've ever had. I've only had two runs with no gameovers and this is one of them.
The question: would this get rejected if I submitted it, and if so how many deaths can I get away with while being accepted? There's no way I'm going to have none, to get this time I play somewhat recklessly.

Sir VG

2010-01-29 11:27:51 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Abusing deaths is fine, if the deaths game more time then they lose. It really just depends on how stupid they are. Sometimes taking a death intentionally so you can abuse your life bar (which if I remember correctly is pretty pathetic anyways at 3 points) is a smart idea.

neskamikaze

2010-01-29 01:24:58 pm

Alright, that makes sense. Though, if this is the case then I'm going to need to redo this because the majority were not intentional deaths. If I can keep my hits to a minimum, I can take quite a few due to the amount of healing available (all the switches, as well as on the way healing items in 1-4, 2-2, 2-4, 3-4, 7-2). To put in perspective of how much I could potentially improve this by, along the way are 6 1-ups, which would give me 8 total lives, 9 if you count 0 as a life. I ended with 1 left, and this is the best I've ever done. If I could not die, or even die only once or twice, this could potentially break 36 or if I'm crazy 35.

I just went back and checked, if I just took at the deaths, not even the other mistakes, I'd be a minute and a half faster. Time for more practice.

MUGG

2010-01-29 03:57:14 pm

TASer

Tool-Assisted Metaknightmare speedrun in 25:41
Part 1
Part 2

I think 35 would be the way to go. Good luck with your run.

neskamikaze

Edit history:

neskamikaze: 2010-02-24 10:13:44 pm

2010-01-29 10:56:39 pm

Thanks a bunch for posting that, I hadn't seen that TAS, only a much worse one on Youtube. With some new strategies from that this should achievable fairly soon.
Edit: Of note is that I'm doing a 100% run, not an any% like this TAS.
Edit 2: Got a 36:35 with 6 lives lost (including a game over). Just gotta get consistency and this will get even lower.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-01 03:44:05 pm

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-01 03:43:59 pm

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-01 03:43:58 pm

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-01 03:18:12 pm

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-01 03:12:35 pm

2011-11-01 11:31:29 am

Claimh Happy

I'm taking up an any% run on Normal difficulty. I may try Meta-Knightmare, but that's for later.

So far I've planned all the way through World 2, though there are a couple things I can't test properly until I have power back (or someone else tests it instead).

Before I list out the route, one term I need to make clear (not to make it official, but just to make it understandable) is LFB [Long Fall Bounce]. As the name implies, this is when you land (either on the ground or on an enemy) during a long fall, and bounce off of it. You can clear a 1 block step with this. As far as know, you cannot go over an enemy this way unless it is below you.

World 1:

-Level 1
Room 1: Hold right at the start. After the LFB, start to dash. Do a full jump so that you jump over both the Waddle-doo (Beam enemy) and the Waddle-dee. The next Waddle-doo will either attack or jump. If it jumps, you don't; if it doesn't, you do. Jump onto the ledge with the spark enemy, then hop over it (neither of these should be full jumps). Fall off the ledge, then jump as you land (you should just barely clear the waddle-dee). Jump and float once at the peak. Once you have enough height to make the ledge, cancel the float for some extra speed. Jump again so that you LFB off the fire enemy. Enter the door.

Alternatively: After the Spark enemy, fall off the ledge, then do a full jump and float twice to reach the ledge. From there it's the same.

Room 2: Dash as soon as possible. Hop over the waddle-dee. Watch the spark enemy as you run up the hill. If it doesn't charge an attack, just jump over it (you can play it safe by holding left for a few frames at the start of the jump). Be careful that you don't end up doing an LFB when you land. If it does charge up an attack, get as close as you can, jump, hold left a bit to get height without moving forward, then press right again to clear the enemy. You may need to hold left before you land to avoid an LFB. Run down the hill, and do a full jump just before the waddle-dee hits you. You should land on the top of the block steps. Do a medium height jump from there. If the Fire enemy does not attack, you will land behind it (you should not LFB). Do a full jump, then one float->cancel to clear the gap. If the enemy does attack, three float->cancels will get you to the other side of the game without getting hurt. Run down the hill, then jump over the spark enemy. Either do a short jump to avoid an LFB, or a larger jump directly to the door. Enter it.

Room 3: Dash immediately. Hop over the bouncing enemy with the hat. Watch the waddle-doo as you approach. As before, if it jumps, run under it. If it doesn't, jump over it. RNG plays a role here, and it's possible for it to jump late. Nothing you can do about it. I treat this as acceptable damage (Total: 1). A full jump will get you over the flying enemy, then a float cancel to clear the gap. I recommend doing it early in case the Fire enemy attacks, as it will shoot high and miss you. Dash when you land, and jump over the enemy (delay if it attacked so you don't jump into the fireball. Run down the hill, hop over the waddle-dee, hop onto the low platform, then hop to the door and enter it. Watch fire a fireball from the fire enemy when you do so.

Trampoline Game (this applies to EVERY occurrence, so i'm only writing it here): Hit A as soon as you touch it to bounce up to the 7.

Uh....I might just wait until I can post a video for the rest. That was a lot for a single level...

Timed a run through World 1, got 3:40 on a run that I would just barely be willing to keep if it were a real run (one luck-based time-waster and one stupid one). This is compared to 3:49 in Sir_VG's 100% run.

I'm taking up an any% run on Normal difficulty. I may try Meta-Knightmare, but that's for later.

So far I've planned all the way through World 2, though there are a couple things I can't test properly until I have power back (or someone else tests it instead).

Before I list out the route, one term I need to make clear (not to make it official, but just to make it understandable) is LFB [Long Fall Bounce]. As the name implies, this is when you land (either on the ground or on an enemy) during a long fall, and bounce off of it. You can clear a 1 block step with this. As far as know, you cannot go over an enemy this way unless it is below you.

World 1:

-Level 1
Room 1: Hold right at the start. After the LFB, start to dash. Do a full jump so that you jump over both the Waddle-doo (Beam enemy) and the Waddle-dee. The next Waddle-doo will either attack or jump. If it jumps, you don't; if it doesn't, you do. Jump onto the ledge with the spark enemy, then hop over it (neither of these should be full jumps). Fall off the ledge, then jump as you land (you should just barely clear the waddle-dee). Jump and float once at the peak. Once you have enough height to make the ledge, cancel the float for some extra speed. Jump again so that you LFB off the fire enemy. Enter the door.

Alternatively: After the Spark enemy, fall off the ledge, then do a full jump and float twice to reach the ledge. From there it's the same.

Room 2: Dash as soon as possible. Hop over the waddle-dee. Watch the spark enemy as you run up the hill. If it doesn't charge an attack, just jump over it (you can play it safe by holding left for a few frames at the start of the jump). Be careful that you don't end up doing an LFB when you land. If it does charge up an attack, get as close as you can, jump, hold left a bit to get height without moving forward, then press right again to clear the enemy. You may need to hold left before you land to avoid an LFB. Run down the hill, and do a full jump just before the waddle-dee hits you. You should land on the top of the block steps. Do a medium height jump from there. If the Fire enemy does not attack, you will land behind it (you should not LFB). Do a full jump, then one float->cancel to clear the gap. If the enemy does attack, three float->cancels will get you to the other side of the game without getting hurt. Run down the hill, then jump over the spark enemy. Either do a short jump to avoid an LFB, or a larger jump directly to the door. Enter it.

Room 3: Dash immediately. Hop over the bouncing enemy with the hat. Watch the waddle-doo as you approach. As before, if it jumps, run under it. If it doesn't, jump over it. RNG plays a role here, and it's possible for it to jump late. Nothing you can do about it. I treat this as acceptable damage (Total: 1). A full jump will get you over the flying enemy, then a float cancel to clear the gap. I recommend doing it early in case the Fire enemy attacks, as it will shoot high and miss you. Dash when you land, and jump over the enemy (delay if it attacked so you don't jump into the fireball. Run down the hill, hop over the waddle-dee, hop onto the low platform, then hop to the door and enter it. Watch fire a fireball from the fire enemy when you do so.
 
Trampoline Game (this applies to EVERY occurrence, so i'm only writing it here): Hit A as soon as you touch it to bounce up to the 7.

Uh....I might just wait until I can post a video for the rest. That was a lot for a single level...

Timed a run through World 1, got 3:40 on a run that I would just barely be willing to keep if it were a real run (one luck-based time-waster and one stupid one). This is compared to 3:49 in Sir_VG's 100% run.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-09 03:47:58 pm

2011-11-08 09:58:41 pm

Claimh Happy

Here's a video through World 2. I stop after 2-5 because my controller disconnects. The boss fight was terrible, but it at least showed what I was trying to do. The timer isn't going because I'm an idiot. Enjoy. And ignore my commentary. I'm inarticulate during a run.

0xwas

2011-11-10 04:06:12 am

yuri 4 life

It's not kirby run but...

I got 33:23 with 4 deaths in metaknightmare.
32 is should be possible.

mapler, good luck on your kirby run. I haven't played with kirby for a while. I can't play well :p

romscout

2011-11-10 05:57:00 am

that Metroidvania guy

Mapler, when I was practicing the game last year (and yea I might go back to it at some point, but of course has to be after the marathon ~_~ ), what I did was take a spark at the end of 1-3 and just take it all the way to the last room of 2-1. Weapon switches add up, it really makes no difference what you use on Wispy, and the spark is fast enough to take care of ice fatso before he even thinks about moving.

Also, maybe I'm remembering wrong, but doesn't sliding off an edge give a speed boost? I swear that was the case. There are a handful of places you could've utilized that if my memory isn't toying with me.

Surreal

Edit history:

Surreal: 2011-11-10 10:48:04 am

Surreal: 2011-11-10 10:45:08 am

Surreal: 2011-11-10 10:41:56 am

Surreal: 2011-11-10 10:41:09 am

2011-11-10 10:24:13 am

dabes

I do plan on running this soon. (been practicing a little on emu, but hopefully I can get the funds soon for a cart).

Also for the sliding, it does make you go faster, however sliding off a ledge would only be useful if you intend to land on the ground below the ledge, since you go faster, but you regain control below the ledge, so if you were to do it before going over a pit, you'd have to float to cross over the rest which would cancel out whatever boost you got.

Also sometimes the dropping from the slide makes it so you're in a worse position relative to enemies around, so it may be faster to sometimes just jump from the ledge and go over an enemy than to slide off then try not to land on an enemy or adjust yourself to be able to get past the enemy. Obviously this is situational, but I think there are definitely times and places for it.

Keeping spark sounds like a good idea. The only advantage to having sword seems to be the last hit on wispy, but that's not much time (probably not as much as switching weapons either). Also, I'm thinking tornado isn't really necessary. It's only used for three screens, and it's only a little bit faster than running, and then there's the startup, cooldown, and the sitting around waiting for it to end when you've already reached your destination. Then there's also switching weapons. If you keep whatever power you had before (spark, sword, etc), then you can just get rid of that to get the giant star to spit at the wheel miniboss.

I was also wondering if the parasol would be useful at all. When it comes out and carries you after a jump, you go a really far distance forward at fast speed (possibly as fast as wheel), and it could make movement around some areas safer since it has that protective hitbox above you. The only downside I can think of it is that after blowing you forward, it will blow you back, but you can usually land on something to cancel that out.

Also Rom that would be awesome if you would run this too.

I do plan on running this soon. (been practicing a little on emu, but hopefully I can get the funds soon for a cart).

Also for the sliding, it does make you go faster, however sliding off a ledge would only be useful if you intend to land on the ground below the ledge, since you go faster, but you regain control below the ledge, so if you were to do it before going over a pit, you'd have to float to cross over the rest which would cancel out whatever boost you got.

Also sometimes the dropping from the slide makes it so you're in a worse position relative to enemies around, so it may be faster to sometimes just jump from the ledge and go over an enemy than to slide off then try not to land on an enemy or adjust yourself to be able to get past the enemy. Obviously this is situational, but I think there are definitely times and places for it.

Keeping spark sounds like a good idea. The only advantage to having sword seems to be the last hit on wispy, but that's not much time (probably not as much as switching weapons either). Also, I'm thinking tornado isn't really necessary. It's only used for three screens, and it's only a little bit faster than running, and then there's the startup, cooldown, and the sitting around waiting for it to end when you've already reached your destination. Then there's also switching weapons. If you keep whatever power you had before (spark, sword, etc), then you can just get rid of that to get the giant star to spit at the wheel miniboss.

I was also wondering if the parasol would be useful at all. When it comes out and carries you after a jump, you go a really far distance forward at fast speed (possibly as fast as wheel), and it could make movement around some areas safer since it has that protective hitbox above you. The only downside I can think of it is that after blowing you forward, it will blow you back, but you can usually land on something to cancel that out.

Also Rom that would be awesome if you would run this too.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-10 02:39:48 pm

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-10 02:38:30 pm

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-10 02:34:34 pm

2011-11-10 02:32:34 pm

Claimh Happy

Spark is not a good option here, in my opinion. If I get it from the enemy you are talking about, then I lose 3 uses of burning, not to mention that all the fire enemies in that room are a lot more dangerous if you slow down (more likely to use their long range attack). The alternative is grabbing spark at the start of 1-4, which slower for obvious reasons. In either case, it's 1 ability switch for both my method and Spark. Freeze and Spark are both roughly the same for the next room (although if you do it right, you can get away with fewer Freeze uses because you can kill enemies with the resulting ice blocks). The third room, which is a vertical climb, is the same with either ability. The reason I switch to Sword here is actually for consistency (I count this as half of an ability change, since the trick with the last hit on Whispy makes up a portion of the time lost). At the start of 2-1, you have a Fire enemy in the coconut area. He loves to attack me. Sword is the only ability (without wasting more than a second to get it) that allows me to get through there with 100% consistency and without stopping at all. It does the exact same thing in the next room. I would have to slow down (though perhaps only a tiny bit with enough practice) for both a waddle-dee, a Parasol waddle-dee, and a Crash enemy. With the Sword, the only one that can hit me is the Parasol waddle-dee (about a fifth of the time, i would say), and he hits me forward, allowing me to get past the Crash enemy with invincibility anyways.

The Tornado ability is also about consistency, but I'm a little more willing to believe it's a time waster than the Sword is. The room you get it in is the most random room in the first 3 worlds. I honestly haven't found anything consistent for that room except for grabbing the Tornado (which I do believe saves time, just not as much as grabbing it wastes). The start of the next stage is actually pretty high up in terms of randomness, too, but with only 2 enemies I can usually manage. Still, Tornado is 100% consistent there, and if started as soon as you gain control i think it's faster than not using it and getting lucky.

The only alternative that I think is both faster and reasonable enough to try would be keeping Burning until Wheel in 2-2. The miniboss in 1-4 is actually the largest obstacle to that. I can't find a good way to kill him without waiting for a long time. The next room is hard to do, but I think it's consistent if I practice the timing more. The vertical room would be a bit slower, but not that much. I would Burning through the invincibility section and skip Sword. Whispy would be a bit slow. The coconuts in 2-1 are manageable with Burning, and it completely bypasses the enemies there. 2-1:2 is set up conveniently for Burning. 2-1:3 (the room I get Tornado) might be possible. I still haven't worked out a method, but I have more to try. 2-2 would just use Burning whenever I would normally use Tornado (and an extra one to hit the Warp Star faster).

About the slide attack: You do not keep your momentum in the air for any noticeable period of time (in the original game you do, so I've been told this a lot). You can maintain it for longer by floating, but that has limited use and I'm not doing that in a non-TAS run (at least not in any of the places I've routed so far). It'd be adding a whole new dimension to the run simply to save frames. Perhaps it's worth it, but unless you do it and my competitive nature gives me some extra drive, I'm maintaining that it'd be better to optimize what I'm already doing.

I've tried Parasol, and I do think it would save time, but in the stages I can easily get it, I simply cannot seem to get through consistently. The biggest issue is your limited ability to drop. You are either guaranteed an LFB or have to attack, which will make you float again afterwards if you don't land first (which means wasting time while the attack ends, although the ability would likely save more time than this costs).

Spark is not a good option here, in my opinion.  If I get it from the enemy you are talking about, then I lose 3 uses of burning, not to mention that all the fire enemies in that room are a lot more dangerous if you slow down (more likely to use their long range attack). The alternative is grabbing spark at the start of 1-4, which slower for obvious reasons. In either case, it's 1 ability switch for both my method and Spark. Freeze and Spark are both roughly the same for the next room (although if you do it right, you can get away with fewer Freeze uses because you can kill enemies with the resulting ice blocks). The third room, which is a vertical climb, is the same with either ability.  The reason I switch to Sword here is actually for consistency (I count this as half of an ability change, since the trick with the last hit on Whispy makes up a portion of the time lost). At the start of 2-1, you have a Fire enemy in the coconut area. He loves to attack me. Sword is the only ability (without wasting more than a second to get it) that allows me to get through there with 100% consistency and without stopping at all. It does the exact same thing in the next room. I would have to slow down (though perhaps only a tiny bit with enough practice) for both a waddle-dee, a Parasol waddle-dee, and a Crash enemy. With the Sword, the only one that can hit me is the Parasol waddle-dee (about a fifth of the time, i would say), and he hits me forward, allowing me to get past the Crash enemy with invincibility anyways.

The Tornado ability is also about consistency, but I'm a little more willing to believe it's a time waster than the Sword is. The room you get it in is the most random room in the first 3 worlds. I honestly haven't found anything consistent for that room except for grabbing the Tornado (which I do believe saves time, just not as much as grabbing it wastes). The start of the next stage is actually pretty high up in terms of randomness, too, but with only 2 enemies I can usually manage. Still, Tornado is 100% consistent there, and if started as soon as you gain control i think it's faster than not using it and getting lucky.

The only alternative that I think is both faster and reasonable enough to try would be keeping Burning until Wheel in 2-2. The miniboss in 1-4 is actually the largest obstacle to that. I can't find a good way to kill him without waiting for a long time. The next room is hard to do, but I think it's consistent if I practice the timing more. The vertical room would be a bit slower, but not that much. I would Burning through the invincibility section and skip Sword. Whispy would be a bit slow. The coconuts in 2-1 are manageable with Burning, and it completely bypasses the enemies there. 2-1:2 is set up conveniently for Burning. 2-1:3 (the room I get Tornado) might be possible. I still haven't worked out a method, but I have more to try. 2-2 would just use Burning whenever I would normally use Tornado (and an extra one to hit the Warp Star faster).

About the slide attack: You do not keep your momentum in the air for any noticeable period of time (in the original game you do, so I've been told this a lot). You can maintain it for longer by floating, but that has limited use and I'm not doing that in a non-TAS run (at least not in any of the places I've routed so far). It'd be adding a whole new dimension to the run simply to save frames. Perhaps it's worth it, but unless you do it and my competitive nature gives me some extra drive, I'm maintaining that it'd be better to optimize what I'm already doing.

I've tried Parasol, and I do think it would save time, but in the stages I can easily get it, I simply cannot seem to get through consistently. The biggest issue is your limited ability to drop. You are either guaranteed an LFB or have to attack, which will make you float again afterwards if you don't land first (which means wasting time while the attack ends, although the ability would likely save more time than this costs).

Floogal

2011-11-11 01:17:08 am

Yeah, I can confirm that sliding off of slopes is a NES trick. Not so much in the GBA remake.

According to our friendly TAS neighbours, in Kirby and the Amazing Mirror, the fastest form of horizontal movement for vanilla Kirby is to constantly jump in the air (slightly faster than running on the ground). Repeated sliding on the ground is only worth it if the ending lag of the last slide is cancelled somehow.

This game has very similar physics to Amazing Mirror. Perhaps you could try timing running or jumping across a long area to see if there's the same differences.

Surreal

Edit history:

Surreal: 2011-11-11 01:23:30 am

Surreal: 2011-11-11 01:21:33 am

Surreal: 2011-11-11 01:21:07 am

2011-11-11 01:20:23 am

dabes

I made this in case anyone was curious how 2-1 would play out if you had spark. It had a couple little mistakes, but the main point was to show that if the fireball guy in the beginning spits fire, then you can pretty much always dodge it if you timed a slide correctly (using the full amount of extra boost to then fall under it). I also showed that for the area with the nuke enemy, you can land on each section with one jump and just spark on your way up (so sword isn't much faster here). The tornado room isn't too scary with spark, and because you can hold spark out and it is all around you there's more consistency with hitting enemies and not getting hit yourself (compared to the sword). It's a tiny bit slower with attacking in the air, but not by much.

Also spark does kill the walrus miniboss faster than waiting for him to throw out an ice block (you can kill him before he even pulls out the ice block, so this fight alone is a second+ faster), and Wispy dies in 9 hits to spark as opposed to 10 by the sword. I didn't bother to record these though since I didn't feel it necessary to.

Also, I don't really notice much difference in speed for jumping as opposed to dashing. I'll test it later, but I think if it is faster it's a matter of a few pixels per frame.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGw3ZmxF9Zc

I made this in case anyone was curious how 2-1 would play out if you had spark. It had a couple little mistakes, but the main point was to show that if the fireball guy in the beginning spits fire, then you can pretty much always dodge it if you timed a slide correctly (using the full amount of extra boost to then fall under it). I also showed that for the area with the nuke enemy, you can land on each section with one jump and just spark on your way up (so sword isn't much faster here). The tornado room isn't too scary with spark, and because you can hold spark out and it is all around you there's more consistency with hitting enemies and not getting hit yourself (compared to the sword). It's a tiny bit slower with attacking in the air, but not by much.

Also spark does kill the walrus miniboss faster than waiting for him to throw out an ice block (you can kill him before he even pulls out the ice block, so this fight alone is a second+ faster), and Wispy dies in 9 hits to spark as opposed to 10 by the sword. I didn't bother to record these though since I didn't feel it necessary to.

Also, I don't really notice much difference in speed for jumping as opposed to dashing. I'll test it later, but I think if it is faster it's a matter of a few pixels per frame.

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

Edit history:

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-11 04:08:47 pm

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-11 10:28:52 am

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-11 10:27:58 am

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-11 10:23:31 am

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-11 10:20:24 am

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-11 10:19:11 am

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-11 10:11:47 am

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-11 09:40:24 am

Marche_Fighter_Paladin: 2011-11-11 09:40:15 am

2011-11-11 09:33:40 am

Claimh Happy

hm...I forgot about Spark doing more damage than Sword. I still don't like the idea of using spark, though. I'd rather try to keep Burning. I think I have a way to fight Walrus, and I do have some leeway from not needing to switch abilities. Burning would be a lot slower for Whispy, but I think having it for ~~an entire extra level~~ an extra half of a level, a full level, and then another half of a level would save that time and more.

Does anyone have a list of damage and health values for this game? Floogal posted one for the NES game a few years ago, but I can't find anything for this one.

EDIT: Burning does more damage at the start of the attack. Or something. I'm confused. I'll edit this if I figure it out.

EDIT2: No idea what causes it, but for Walrus you can just Burning, rebound off wall, fall a little, and repeat (holding right the whole time) and you'll kill him in four hits instead of ~~three~~ five. Stupid typo.

EDIT3: Except when you can't. I don't understand T-T

EDIT4: I think you do an extra point of damage if you aren't holding left or right when you start Burning. What the hell?

EDIT5: Yeah, pretty sure that's it. Time to work on the 1-4 through 2-2, I guess. And time for more testing in 2-4. God damnit.

EDIT6: Nope, back to having no clue at all. Surreal and I are both working on it. ~~Shoot me now~~ Help us T-T

hm...I forgot about Spark doing more damage than Sword. I still don't like the idea of using spark, though. I'd rather try to keep Burning. I think I have a way to fight Walrus, and I do have some leeway from not needing to switch abilities. Burning would be a lot slower for Whispy, but I think having it for [s]an entire extra level[/s] an extra half of a level, a full level, and then another half of a level would save that time and more.

Does anyone have a list of damage and health values for this game? Floogal posted one for the NES game a few years ago, but I can't find anything for this one.

EDIT: Burning does more damage at the start of the attack. Or something. I'm confused. I'll edit this if I figure it out.

EDIT2: No idea what causes it, but for Walrus you can just Burning, rebound off wall, fall a little, and repeat (holding right the whole time) and you'll kill him in four hits instead of [s]three[/s] five. Stupid typo.

EDIT3: Except when you can't. I don't understand T-T

EDIT4: I think you do an extra point of damage if you aren't holding left or right when you start Burning. What the hell?

EDIT5: Yeah, pretty sure that's it. Time to work on the 1-4 through 2-2, I guess. And time for more testing in 2-4. God damnit.

EDIT6: Nope, back to having no clue at all. Surreal and I are both working on it. [s]Shoot me now[/s] Help us T-T

Marche_Fighter_Paladin

2011-11-12 05:46:15 pm

Claimh Happy

Damage guide: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=154086#154086

Turns out hitting the ice block was giving me double hits on the walrus. I think. I'm asking MUGG to confirm this.

Surreal

2011-11-12 07:32:21 pm

dabes

I am 90% sure that it isn't the ice blocks. When I was watching you fight him I was going to suggest it was the ice blocks, only to see you hit him twice before he even did anything (didn't even shake his butt at you yet) and getting the extra damage.

Also I can't think of anything from the list that would do the damage it does that's in that battle (spitting out the ice block at him would do 10 damage, so there's no way you're knocking the block into him, since that much damage would be more than the second hit is doing).

That also doesn't describe why none of your others hits other than the second wouldn't have done more. Surely some of those had to have hit an iceblock he made after the second hit.

I hope MUGG replies soon though. Being able to do this consistently would be neat.