Golden Sun: The Lost Age

Edit history:

Serris: 2008-09-03 01:45:47 pm

2008-08-26 12:12:53 pm

Continued from http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,1166.135.html

-------------------

Easy mode route:

Daila
Kandorean Temple
Get Mysterious Card
Daila Sanctum warp
Dehkan Plateau
Enter Madra
Madra Sanctum warp to skip entrance cutscene
Yampi Desert
Alhafra
Alhafra Sanctum warp
Air's Rock
Alhafra Sanctum warp
Yampi Desert
Get Trainer's Whip
Kibombo Mountains
Enter Kibombo
Kibombo Sanctum warp to northeast of town
Kibombo Sanctum warp after Gabomba Statue
Madra
Ship
Apojii Islands
Aqua Rock
Apojii Islands Sanctum warp
Enter & exit E Tundaria Islet
Tundaria Tower
Get Sylph Feather
E Tundaria Islet Sanctum warp
Enter Yallam
Yallam Sanctum warp
Forge Sylph Rapier
Enter & exit Izumo
Gaia Rock (maze: LUURURRDRRURRU)
Izumo Sanctum warp
Ankohl Ruins
Alhafra
Alhafra Sanctum warp
Enter & exit Daila
Shrine of the Sea God
Daila Sanctum warp
Get Sea God's Tear
Shrine of the Sea God
Daila Sanctum warp
Champa
Champa Sanctum warp
Sea of Time
Lemuria
Shaman Village
Atteka Inlet
Enter & exit Contigo
Jupiter Lighthouse
Contigo Sanctum warp
Get Isaac
Contigo Sanctum warp
Magma Rock
Loho
Loho Sanctum warp
Prox
Mars Lighthouse

Serpent:
Felix w/ Mysterious Card: Sabre Dance
Jenna w/ Sylph Rapier: Mad Zephyr x2
Sheba w/ Trainer's Whip: Whiplash
Piers: Diamond Dust

The route doesn't include Retreat spots and most minor Sanctum warps (Lemuria etc)

-------------------

Magma Rock Burst glitching:

Exterior:

- Climb the ladder above the main entrance and use Burst on the pillar.

- In the area with the Growth plants, use Burst on a spot left of the first plant to remove the highest pillar, then use Burst on the wall below the statue to the right to remove the other pillar (for some reason, I haven't been able to Burst the pillar directly). Also, if you use Burst on a spot between the Growth plant and the lower right statue (which should activate the statue normally used to remove the highest pillar) the game will either semi-freeze and screen-shift for a few seconds or freeze completely. If the former happens, you can actually get the statue to work properly if you repeat the glitch a few times, but it's useless anyway.

- Similar to the above, the Burst glitch doesn't seem to work on the statue and pillar in the area with one normal and two crumbling pillars in a line you have to jump on.

Interior:

- In the second area (after the first blue gem door), climb down the two ladders, go south into the next room and use Burst on the pillar to skip straight to the next area.

- Follow the normal route until you get to the three pillars you have to push into place. Ignore them and use Burst on the left statue. Go back to the previous room, climb the ladder next to the chest and jump onto the moving platform to continue like normal.

-------------------

Read description.

-------------------

http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/561356/37987

-------------------

Quote from ForteGS:

Quote from Serris:

I finished an Easy mode test run w/o password in 4:40. What's the estimated time for Normal?

probably 1~2 hours longer (what were your levels at the start of New Game easy mode?)

Lvl 99 + maxed out stats (why would you use a less-than-optimal save, anyway?)

Thread title:

Continued from http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,1166.135.html

-------------------

Easy mode route:

Daila
Kandorean Temple
Get Mysterious Card
Daila Sanctum warp
Dehkan Plateau
Enter Madra
Madra Sanctum warp to skip entrance cutscene
Yampi Desert
Alhafra
Alhafra Sanctum warp
Air's Rock
Alhafra Sanctum warp
Yampi Desert
Get Trainer's Whip
Kibombo Mountains
Enter Kibombo
Kibombo Sanctum warp to northeast of town
Kibombo Sanctum warp after Gabomba Statue
Madra
Ship
Apojii Islands
Aqua Rock
Apojii Islands Sanctum warp
Enter & exit E Tundaria Islet
Tundaria Tower
Get Sylph Feather
E Tundaria Islet Sanctum warp
Enter Yallam
Yallam Sanctum warp
Forge Sylph Rapier
Enter & exit Izumo
Gaia Rock (maze: LUURURRDRRURRU)
Izumo Sanctum warp
Ankohl Ruins
Alhafra
Alhafra Sanctum warp
Enter & exit Daila
Shrine of the Sea God
Daila Sanctum warp
Get Sea God's Tear
Shrine of the Sea God
Daila Sanctum warp
Champa
Champa Sanctum warp
Sea of Time
Lemuria
Shaman Village
Atteka Inlet
Enter & exit Contigo
Jupiter Lighthouse
Contigo Sanctum warp
Get Isaac
Contigo Sanctum warp
Magma Rock
Loho
Loho Sanctum warp
Prox
Mars Lighthouse

Serpent:
Felix w/ Mysterious Card: Sabre Dance
Jenna w/ Sylph Rapier: Mad Zephyr x2
Sheba w/ Trainer's Whip: Whiplash
Piers: Diamond Dust

The route doesn't include Retreat spots and most minor Sanctum warps (Lemuria etc)

-------------------

Magma Rock Burst glitching:

Exterior:

- Climb the ladder above the main entrance and use Burst on the pillar.

- In the area with the Growth plants, use Burst on a spot left of the first plant to remove the highest pillar, then use Burst on the wall below the statue to the right to remove the other pillar (for some reason, I haven't been able to Burst the pillar directly). Also, if you use Burst on a spot between the Growth plant and the lower right statue (which should activate the statue normally used to remove the highest pillar) the game will either semi-freeze and screen-shift for a few seconds or freeze completely. If the former happens, you can actually get the statue to work properly if you repeat the glitch a few times, but it's useless anyway.

- Similar to the above, the Burst glitch doesn't seem to work on the statue and pillar in the area with one normal and two crumbling pillars in a line you have to jump on.

Interior:

- In the second area (after the first blue gem door), climb down the two ladders, go south into the next room and use Burst on the pillar to skip straight to the next area.

- Follow the normal route until you get to the three pillars you have to push into place. Ignore them and use Burst on the left statue. Go back to the previous room, climb the ladder next to the chest and jump onto the moving platform to continue like normal.

-------------------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H90BUkBhTeE

Read description.

-------------------

http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbadvance/file/561356/37987

-------------------

[quote="ForteGS"]
[quote="Serris"]
I finished an Easy mode test run w/o password in 4:40. What's the estimated time for Normal?
[/quote]

probably 1~2 hours longer (what were your levels at the start of New Game easy mode?)
[/quote]

Lvl 99 + maxed out stats (why would you use a less-than-optimal save, anyway?)

ForteGS

2008-08-26 02:37:32 pm

Bring me the flaming voodoo canonball!

I'm not sure if a "easy mode" run is allowed before finishing a normal mode run.
1. You need to beat the game to unluck easy+hard modes
2. Because you get the items, levels etc from an existing save.

And to answer your question:
I can't see your game all the way from here Wink

So I didn't know what your previous save levels etc were.

I'm gonna ask Mike for ya if a normal mode run is required first.

Serris

2008-08-26 02:50:50 pm

Only level + stats are transferred.

I'm not recording anything, so there's no need to ask Mike, especially since that rule's been changed a while ago, anyway. No need to answer rhetorical questions, either. Wink

ForteGS

2008-08-26 02:55:53 pm

Bring me the flaming voodoo canonball!

Darn, already sent it :S
Oh well, it's best to now for any future runner Wink

If only I had a Gamecube gameboy player....
But they don't sell them in my country >_<

ForteGS

2008-08-27 12:45:16 pm

Bring me the flaming voodoo canonball!

Mike's reply

Quote:

I don't see why I wouldn't accept an easy mode run, as lame as it might be.

Serris

2008-08-27 04:12:39 pm

It seems that you cannot complete the game if you Sanctum warp after Bursting the Alhafra ship rock and save, but if you could get past the townspeople blocking your way from the Sanctum to the ship, you would skip several cutscenes and save a few minutes. Any ideas? And simply leaving Alhafra doesn't work, as Briggs won't leave until you watch his cutscene.

ForteGS

2008-08-29 07:29:26 am

Bring me the flaming voodoo canonball!

nope.... I think that every cutscene is required to trigger the next step Sad

Serris

Edit history:

Serris: 2008-09-01 08:12:12 am

2008-09-01 08:05:11 am

Setup for Easy run w/ password so far:

Party: Felix, Piers, Isaac, Garet

Djinn: Flint

Items:
Isaac: Warrior's Helm, Spiked Armor, Hyper Boots, Lifting Gem, Carry Stone
Garet: Swift Sword, Lucky Cap, Spiked Armor, Hyper Boots
Ivan: Spiked Armor x2, Hyper Boots x2
Mia: Remaining Psynergy items

Buy Swift Sword for Felix, get Sol Blade for Isaac, give Ivan's Spiked Armor and Hyper Boots to Felix and Piers, give Sylph Rapier to Piers

Any suggestions?

I guess buying the Swift Sword is a good idea for runs w/o password, too, but I'm not too sure about the Sol Blade. Either way, it depends on how many enemy turns can be skipped. Even with this setup, a Doom Dragon three-turn kill seems unlikely, and the critical-boosting stuff takes time to equip, so maybe I'll just go with the weapons and bet on luck. Still need to test this, and figure out optimized boss tactics, too.

ForteGS

2008-09-01 10:47:34 am

Bring me the flaming voodoo canonball!

Makes you wonder if a password with the non-legal-way-obtainable Sol Blade from GS1 is allowed....
That way, both Isaac and Felix can have the Sol Blade.

Would it be good to manipulate for Excalibur or one of the other Gold-refined equipment? (I think you get 1 gold after Jupiter Lighthouse, at the port when your ship gets wings)

yoshmaster5

2008-09-01 10:58:40 am

Also tenkiforecast

Quote from ForteGS:

Makes you wonder if a password with the non-legal-way-obtainable Sol Blade from GS1 is allowed....
That way, both Isaac and Felix can have the Sol Blade.

Would it be good to manipulate for Excalibur or one of the other Gold-refined equipment? (I think you get 1 gold after Jupiter Lighthouse, at the port when your ship gets wings)

You get the Orihicilion only if you saved Hammet from Dodonpa in GS1, and then if you used teh gold password. Undecided

No Excalibur. -__-;
Getting Phateon's blade is one option as well, it is not much of a detour in the Jupiter Lighthouse.
Aside from that, I don't know of any other 'special' weapons. Only ones you can buy as artifacts.

Serris

2008-09-01 11:48:05 am

I don't intend to do cheat runs, so of course I'll stick to realistic passwords. Since you can make your GS1 party carry any GS2 item, your inventory would probably look like this:

Sol Blade x2
Excalibur x2
Valkyrie Mail x4
Mythril Helm x4
Riot Gloves x4
Ninja Sandals x4

As for getting Excalibur, keep in mind that my base stats are maxed out. The only thing that matters are damage multipliers, so the Swift Sword and the Excalibur are pretty much identical (the Excalibur's additional Jupiter damage is negligible). If you feel like helping with research, GSU is awesome: http://goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Damage-multiplying_effects

Serris

2008-09-05 03:04:21 pm

Has there been any discussion of Normal mode? Anything needed aside from picking up most Djinn along the way? I guess getting Eclipse could be worth it, but other than that, the normal Summons should suffice. Any suggestions?

ForteGS

2008-09-05 03:28:47 pm

Bring me the flaming voodoo canonball!

I think normal summons should suffice.

- Charon (only if 100% or only all djinns collected)
- Haures (since your final party will most likely contain Isaac, Felix, Garet and Piers)
- Eclipse (only till GS1 Party joins up, WITH password)
- Zagan to lower King Scorpion and Brigg's defense

Blubbler

2008-09-13 03:44:57 pm

Quote from Serris:

I don't intend to do cheat runs, so of course I'll stick to realistic passwords.

I may be horribly wrong, because I never played easy mode, but couldn't you just theoretically play through the game one thousand times on easy mode and use the stat boosting items each time to start with 1999 HP, 999 strength, 99 luck etc?
Or are you already doing this? Grin

Despite the fact, that this could be shortened by 10000% by cheat devices and/or generated passwords, and none would find out...

Serris

2008-09-13 03:58:39 pm

That's what I mean by maxed out characters, yeah. I use a password generator to get 120 of each stat item per playthrough. I don't have AR, and I needed those playthroughs to test stuff and rememorize the game, anyway. Took about 200 hours. Imagine doing that with just the stat items you find ingame.

Manocheese

Edit history:

Manocheese: 2013-02-06 10:34:05 am

Manocheese: 2010-01-25 03:30:17 pm

2009-11-29 11:02:29 am

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

I saw this video while browsing YouTube:

Shortcut Retreat and get the person using it to less than 6 PP. Press the shortcut button and select "Yes". You will be told that you don't have enough PP. You are now in "Retreat mode". You can leave Retreat mode by entering a battle (random battles occur normally), entering a loading zone, or saving and reloading. There are two glitches you can use once you're in Retreat mode.

EXIT WARPING

The first glitch you can use in Retreat mode, exit warping, is apparently by far the more useful of the two. It was found by mpglticher [sic], the creator of the video I linked to. To do it, simply go through a loading zone while in Retreat mode. The game will not always put you where you are supposed to be. There are two factors that influence where the game puts you:

1. The loading zone you are using. The two sides of what might seem to be a single door count as two separate loading zones.
2. The Retreat location (where you will go if you use Retreat normally).

As long as these two things are the same, the glitch will always put you in the same place. The entrance you used to get to a room does NOT matter unless it is also the Retreat location. Retreat locations can be tricky. For example, if you enter the inner dungeon at Aqua Rock via the lower entrance and use Retreat, you will be taken to the lower entrance, so that entrance is a Retreat location. But if you go just outside and use Retreat, you'll be taken to the entrance next to the world map, so going outside from the lower exit (or from the upper exit, for that matter) is NOT a Retreat location; the only Retreat location in the Aqua Rock exterior is the one next to the loading zone that leads to the world map.

A few general observations about where the glitch puts you: each dungeon seems to have only a small numbers of places where you can be warped, despite the large number of loading zones (an exception is Shaman Village, which for some reason allows you to use Retreat). One common spot to be warped is on the overworld outside Madra. If you get warped there and you have the ship, it will NOT be warped with you (although you can simply Sanctum warp or let yourself be killed to get it back). The game also likes to put you just inside or just outside the entrance to an area. When you climb up a ladder or wall that extends to the top or bottom of the screen while in Retreat mode, the glitch often lets you walk around on the top or bottom of the screen as though the loading zones have been removed. Finally, the game sometimes puts you in normally inaccessible areas where you can walk around and see some objects and NPCs out of place. This is generally useless.

SAVE WARPING

The second glitch is save warping. If you save while in Retreat mode and then reload, you'll often load somewhere else. Although exit warps usually put you in a fully functioning room, save warps often don't. It's typical to see NPCs on top of cliffs and graphical glitches with various objects and the menus. You can see this type of thing by doing the glitch in Shaman Village. I haven't researched this glitch as much as exit warping, but it seems that the following three factors determine where you will be placed if you save warp:

1. The room you are in.
2. Your location in the room when you save.
3. The Retreat location.

You usually can't enter any loading zones after using this glitch. It seems to always put you in a glitchy version of the room with the Retreat location. Your new location in that room seems to be directly related to where you were in the room where you saved; if you were in the northeast corner, you will load farther northeast in the room with the Retreat location than if you had been in the southwest corner. This theory seems supported by the fact that the glitch seems to do nothing if you use it in the room with the Retreat location. I haven't found any use for this glitch, but as I said, I haven't tested it as extensively as I have the exit warp glitch.

-------------------------------
USES OF THE RETREAT GLITCH
-------------------------------

Here are some uses of Retreat warping that I've found. I tested some dungeons more exhaustively than others; while I tested every single loading zone in Jupiter Lighthouse and Tundaria Tower, I didn't bother doing any testing in Anemos Sanctum after finding a way to skip 99% of the dungeon. Not everything listed here is necessarily useful for a speed run.

KANDOREAN TEMPLE

Go down the first set of stairs, enter Retreat mode, and go back up. Follow the stairs to finish the dungeon very quickly. If you go past the room with Fog and fall off the rope in Retreat mode, you will end up at a point just after the Chestbeaters. So, you can skip them. If you go back, you'll see that the ladder is always present, but is invisible. You can walk through the Chestbeaters.

DEHKAN PLATEAU

In the room where you fight Cannon, go through the door in the northwestern part of the room in Retreat mode to be warped near Madra. There are quite a few other loading zones here that warp you to the same place.

YAMPI DESERT

After entering from the Alhafra side, go down and enter the cave. Enter Retreat mode and go back the way you came to be warped to the far right of the screen between the sand river room and the room leading to Yampi Desert Cave.

AIR'S ROCK

1. On the screen with the heavy fog, you can go from one side of the rocks to the other if you climb up while in Retreat mode. Unfortunately, it seems that random battles don't trigger on this screen, so you can't leave Retreat mode. If you save, you'll be warped somewhere else. There are no loading zones on the screen while you're in Retreat mode. So, you have to do this part of the level the normal, slow way.

2. In the main room of the dungeon's interior, there is a door on the left with three dots in front of it. Enter this door in Retreat mode to drop down in front of the wind stone on the bottom level. You need to have entered from the top for this glitch to work.

3. After learning Reveal, exit the tablet room and use Retreat (without doing the glitch). Leave the inner dungeon. Enter Retreat mode and enter the inner dungeon again. You will be warped near Madra.

I didn't do much testing with entering from the lower entrance.

GABOMBA STATUE

On the bottom floor where you must use Pound on two pillars, pound one of them, go back to the ladder, enter Retreat mode, and climb the ladder. You can walk on the ceiling to the other ladder, then climb down and pound the other pillar.

KIBOMBO MOUNTAINS

Enter from the Naribwe side. Enter Retreat mode and walk into the cave to the left of the bone to be warped near Madra.

AQUA ROCK

Climb via the leftmost route to the level of the outside area with the entrance to the inner dungeon. Enter Retreat mode, climb down, walk right, climb up, and go to the waterfall. Run around until a random battle occurs to activate waterfall's loading zone.

SHRINE OF THE SEA GOD

From the entrance, go right (away from the rope). Enter the door, enter Retreat mode, and go back to get to an area later in the dungeon. Unfortunately, you still need to save the kids or you'll be unable to get the Sea God's Tear, so this isn't very useful.

GAIA ROCK

In the first room of the maze, enter Retreat mode and go south to be warped to a point on the side of the mountain. I'm not sure if this is worth doing, though; it doesn't save a whole lot of time. If you go down after doing this, you can push a pillar onto a rock. From there, you can push it into the cliff's side or out into the air.

SHAMAN VILLAGE

This is a great place to try out the glitch. You can use it to get Aroma before beating Trial Road:

Enter Shaman Village from the overworld. Enter the inn and go downstairs. Enter Retreat mode and go through the door closest to the stairs to get to the fortune teller screen in a position to move the pillar. Move the pillar down. Slide down and enter the inn again. Enter Retreat mode and go downstairs to get to the top level of the rightmost house. Enter Retreat mode and go downstairs to be warped to the fortune teller screen in a position to hop on the pillar. Get Aroma. If you enter Retreat mode and go left, you'll end up in the inn.

You can achieve some other things too, like warping to Madra or entering any building before beating Trial Road (everyone will act like you've already done so in the buildings that are usually closed). One very interesting use of the glitch is as follows: Enter the village from Trial Road, go to the main screen, enter Retreat mode, and enter the sanctum. The cutscene explaining Trial Road will play, but at the end, Moapa will say something to the effect of "what's this? You no longer have the Shaman's Rod!" and will not let you continue. It's strange that the designers would bother to program a check like this into the game when it's normally impossible to get to that point without the Shaman's Rod. But they did, so, unless there's some way around the check, you can't use this to duplicate the best items like the Sol Blade =(

Save warping also has some bizarre effects here. Try it out if you're interested.

MAGMA ROCK

You can get into the room with the Blaze tablet as follows: exit the inner dungeon by the lower entrance after making your way down from the top, reenter, climb up, go up the stairs, climb up, enter Retreat mode, and go through either door in front of you. You can then learn Blaze and leave without having to use it to remove the pillar in that room. In the Magma Ball room, you can save time by jumping along the left side of the room instead of the right.

ANEMOS INNER SANCTUM

After opening the door that requires all the Djinn, enter Retreat mode and go through either door to end up right next to the Iris tablet, skipping almost the entire dungeon. The cutscene that terminates in the Dullahan fight triggers when you are standing on the blocks after hovering over, so you can probably even skip Dullahan (according to LemanDeVil, who found this use of the glitch and commented about it on mpglticher's video, you CAN skip Dullahan).

It's a shame that the Retreat glitch seems completely useless in long, mandatory dungeons like the lighthouses, Tundaria Tower, and Ankohl Ruins, but saves a ton of time in Anemos Inner Sanctum, which is totally optional. At least a 100% run would (probably) get to skip Dullahan. Here's a list of areas where I didn't find any uses for the glitch:

Gondowan Cliffs: You can actually walk around where the loading zones to the sea should be by save warping, but the loading zones aren't there.
Gabomba Catacombs: Only a 100% run would come here, and it doesn't take long to get Mud anyway, so no big loss.
Tundaria Tower: Almost everything leads to the overworld outside Madra. =(
Ankohl Ruins: This is my least favorite level, so I was disappointed to find no way to use the glitch here.
Sea of Time: I really wanted to find a way to skip Poseidon, but it doesn't seem possible.
Shaman Village Cave: It's short, anyway.
Trial Road: Retreat doesn't work in most of the dungeon.
Jupiter Lighthouse: This was incredibly boring to test because of all the holes in the floor. I had to use the glitch, fall down, reset, use the glitch, fall down, reset... Most loading zones led to the entrance.
Treasure Isle: It's too bad you can't fight Star Magician early.
Northern Reaches: Looks like you can't skip the Magma Ball. =(
Mars Lighthouse: Interestingly, this video (which shows the Doom Dragon battle in what is allegedly a 7:06 speed run) seems to use some form of the Retreat glitch. You can read my comment there for more information. I've tested Mars Lighthouse pretty thoroughly, though, and haven't found any use of the glitch. One loading zone I wasn't able to test was the pit you get knocked into immediately after teleporting if you haven't moved a statue. I couldn't activate Retreat quickly enough. I've sent the video's creator a PM about uploading the rest of his run, so maybe we'll be able to see what he did. EDIT: Never mind, I tested it and that's what normally happens.
Islet Cave: It looks like a 100% run won't get out of trudging down that obscenely long hallway.
Anemos Inner Sanctum: Although you can skip most of the dungeon once you get inside, it would be cool to be able to get inside without all the Djinn. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a way to do so.

I haven't done much testing in Madra Catacombs, Osenia Cavern (north of Mikasalla), or Yampi Desert Cave.

mpglticher's video didn't seem to generate much interest in the Golden Sun thread, but I really encourage people to look for uses of the glitch in that game. I probably won't do so, but I did confirm someone's comment on mpglticher's video that it was possible to skip a good chunk of Mercury Lighthouse.

I saw this video while browsing YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbshmo4Ut9A

Shortcut Retreat and get the person using it to less than 6 PP. Press the shortcut button and select "Yes". You will be told that you don't have enough PP. You are now in "Retreat mode". You can leave Retreat mode by entering a battle (random battles occur normally), entering a loading zone, or saving and reloading. There are two glitches you can use once you're in Retreat mode.

EXIT WARPING

The first glitch you can use in Retreat mode, exit warping, is apparently by far the more useful of the two. It was found by mpglticher [sic], the creator of the video I linked to. To do it, simply go through a loading zone while in Retreat mode. The game will not always put you where you are supposed to be. There are two factors that influence where the game puts you:

1. The loading zone you are using. The two sides of what might seem to be a single door count as two separate loading zones.
2. The Retreat location (where you will go if you use Retreat normally).

As long as these two things are the same, the glitch will always put you in the same place. The entrance you used to get to a room does NOT matter unless it is also the Retreat location. Retreat locations can be tricky. For example, if you enter the inner dungeon at Aqua Rock via the lower entrance and use Retreat, you will be taken to the lower entrance, so that entrance is a Retreat location. But if you go just outside and use Retreat, you'll be taken to the entrance next to the world map, so going outside from the lower exit (or from the upper exit, for that matter) is NOT a Retreat location; the only Retreat location in the Aqua Rock exterior is the one next to the loading zone that leads to the world map.

A few general observations about where the glitch puts you: each dungeon seems to have only a small numbers of places where you can be warped, despite the large number of loading zones (an exception is Shaman Village, which for some reason allows you to use Retreat). One common spot to be warped is on the overworld outside Madra. If you get warped there and you have the ship, it will NOT be warped with you (although you can simply Sanctum warp or let yourself be killed to get it back). The game also likes to put you just inside or just outside the entrance to an area. When you climb up a ladder or wall that extends to the top or bottom of the screen while in Retreat mode, the glitch often lets you walk around on the top or bottom of the screen as though the loading zones have been removed. Finally, the game sometimes puts you in normally inaccessible areas where you can walk around and see some objects and NPCs out of place. This is generally useless.

SAVE WARPING

The second glitch is save warping. If you save while in Retreat mode and then reload, you'll often load somewhere else. Although exit warps usually put you in a fully functioning room, save warps often don't. It's typical to see NPCs on top of cliffs and graphical glitches with various objects and the menus. You can see this type of thing by doing the glitch in Shaman Village. I haven't researched this glitch as much as exit warping, but it seems that the following three factors determine where you will be placed if you save warp:

1. The room you are in.
2. Your location in the room when you save.
3. The Retreat location.

You usually can't enter any loading zones after using this glitch. It seems to always put you in a glitchy version of the room with the Retreat location. Your new location in that room seems to be directly related to where you were in the room where you saved; if you were in the northeast corner, you will load farther northeast in the room with the Retreat location than if you had been in the southwest corner. This theory seems supported by the fact that the glitch seems to do nothing if you use it in the room with the Retreat location. I haven't found any use for this glitch, but as I said, I haven't tested it as extensively as I have the exit warp glitch.

-------------------------------
 USES OF THE RETREAT GLITCH
-------------------------------

Here are some uses of Retreat warping that I've found. I tested some dungeons more exhaustively than others; while I tested every single loading zone in Jupiter Lighthouse and Tundaria Tower, I didn't bother doing any testing in Anemos Sanctum after finding a way to skip 99% of the dungeon. Not everything listed here is necessarily useful for a speed run.

KANDOREAN TEMPLE

Go down the first set of stairs, enter Retreat mode, and go back up. Follow the stairs to finish the dungeon very quickly. If you go past the room with Fog and fall off the rope in Retreat mode, you will end up at a point just after the Chestbeaters. So, you can skip them. If you go back, you'll see that the ladder is always present, but is invisible. You can walk through the Chestbeaters.

DEHKAN PLATEAU

In the room where you fight Cannon, go through the door in the northwestern part of the room in Retreat mode to be warped near Madra. There are quite a few other loading zones here that warp you to the same place.

YAMPI DESERT

After entering from the Alhafra side, go down and enter the cave. Enter Retreat mode and go back the way you came to be warped to the far right of the screen between the sand river room and the room leading to Yampi Desert Cave.

AIR'S ROCK

1. On the screen with the heavy fog, you can go from one side of the rocks to the other if you climb up while in Retreat mode. Unfortunately, it seems that random battles don't trigger on this screen, so you can't leave Retreat mode. If you save, you'll be warped somewhere else. There are no loading zones on the screen while you're in Retreat mode. So, you have to do this part of the level the normal, slow way.

2. In the main room of the dungeon's interior, there is a door on the left with three dots in front of it. Enter this door in Retreat mode to drop down in front of the wind stone on the bottom level. You need to have entered from the top for this glitch to work.

3. After learning Reveal, exit the tablet room and use Retreat (without doing the glitch). Leave the inner dungeon. Enter Retreat mode and enter the inner dungeon again. You will be warped near Madra.

I didn't do much testing with entering from the lower entrance.

GABOMBA STATUE

On the bottom floor where you must use Pound on two pillars, pound one of them, go back to the ladder, enter Retreat mode, and climb the ladder. You can walk on the ceiling to the other ladder, then climb down and pound the other pillar.

KIBOMBO MOUNTAINS

Enter from the Naribwe side. Enter Retreat mode and walk into the cave to the left of the bone to be warped near Madra.

AQUA ROCK

Climb via the leftmost route to the level of the outside area with the entrance to the inner dungeon. Enter Retreat mode, climb down, walk right, climb up, and go to the waterfall. Run around until a random battle occurs to activate waterfall's loading zone.

SHRINE OF THE SEA GOD

From the entrance, go right (away from the rope). Enter the door, enter Retreat mode, and go back to get to an area later in the dungeon. Unfortunately, you still need to save the kids or you'll be unable to get the Sea God's Tear, so this isn't very useful.

GAIA ROCK

In the first room of the maze, enter Retreat mode and go south to be warped to a point on the side of the mountain. I'm not sure if this is worth doing, though; it doesn't save a whole lot of time. If you go down after doing this, you can push a pillar onto a rock. From there, you can push it into the cliff's side or out into the air.

SHAMAN VILLAGE

This is a great place to try out the glitch. You can use it to get Aroma before beating Trial Road:

Enter Shaman Village from the overworld. Enter the inn and go downstairs. Enter Retreat mode and go through the door closest to the stairs to get to the fortune teller screen in a position to move the pillar. Move the pillar down. Slide down and enter the inn again. Enter Retreat mode and go downstairs to get to the top level of the rightmost house. Enter Retreat mode and go downstairs to be warped to the fortune teller screen in a position to hop on the pillar. Get Aroma. If you enter Retreat mode and go left, you'll end up in the inn.

You can achieve some other things too, like warping to Madra or entering any building before beating Trial Road (everyone will act like you've already done so in the buildings that are usually closed). One very interesting use of the glitch is as follows: Enter the village from Trial Road, go to the main screen, enter Retreat mode, and enter the sanctum. The cutscene explaining Trial Road will play, but at the end, Moapa will say something to the effect of "what's this? You no longer have the Shaman's Rod!" and will not let you continue. It's strange that the designers would bother to program a check like this into the game when it's normally impossible to get to that point without the Shaman's Rod. But they did, so, unless there's some way around the check, you can't use this to duplicate the best items like the Sol Blade =(

Save warping also has some bizarre effects here. Try it out if you're interested.

MAGMA ROCK

You can get into the room with the Blaze tablet as follows: exit the inner dungeon by the lower entrance after making your way down from the top, reenter, climb up, go up the stairs, climb up, enter Retreat mode, and go through either door in front of you. You can then learn Blaze and leave without having to use it to remove the pillar in that room. In the Magma Ball room, you can save time by jumping along the left side of the room instead of the right.

ANEMOS INNER SANCTUM

After opening the door that requires all the Djinn, enter Retreat mode and go through either door to end up right next to the Iris tablet, skipping almost the entire dungeon. The cutscene that terminates in the Dullahan fight triggers when you are standing on the blocks after hovering over, so you can probably even skip Dullahan (according to LemanDeVil, who found this use of the glitch and commented about it on mpglticher's video, you CAN skip Dullahan).

It's a shame that the Retreat glitch seems completely useless in long, mandatory dungeons like the lighthouses, Tundaria Tower, and Ankohl Ruins, but saves a ton of time in Anemos Inner Sanctum, which is totally optional. At least a 100% run would (probably) get to skip Dullahan. Here's a list of areas where I didn't find any uses for the glitch:

Gondowan Cliffs: You can actually walk around where the loading zones to the sea should be by save warping, but the loading zones aren't there.
Gabomba Catacombs: Only a 100% run would come here, and it doesn't take long to get Mud anyway, so no big loss.
Tundaria Tower: Almost everything leads to the overworld outside Madra. =(
Ankohl Ruins: This is my least favorite level, so I was disappointed to find no way to use the glitch here.
Sea of Time: I really wanted to find a way to skip Poseidon, but it doesn't seem possible.
Shaman Village Cave: It's short, anyway.
Trial Road: Retreat doesn't work in most of the dungeon.
Jupiter Lighthouse: This was incredibly boring to test because of all the holes in the floor. I had to use the glitch, fall down, reset, use the glitch, fall down, reset... Most loading zones led to the entrance.
Treasure Isle: It's too bad you can't fight Star Magician early.
Northern Reaches: Looks like you can't skip the Magma Ball. =(
Mars Lighthouse: Interestingly, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QL7PYDVuNY]this video[/url] (which shows the Doom Dragon battle in what is allegedly a 7:06 speed run) seems to use some form of the Retreat glitch. You can read my comment there for more information. I've tested Mars Lighthouse pretty thoroughly, though, and haven't found any use of the glitch. One loading zone I wasn't able to test was the pit you get knocked into immediately after teleporting if you haven't moved a statue. I couldn't activate Retreat quickly enough. I've sent the video's creator a PM about uploading the rest of his run, so maybe we'll be able to see what he did. EDIT: Never mind, I tested it and that's what normally happens.
Islet Cave: It looks like a 100% run won't get out of trudging down that obscenely long hallway.
Anemos Inner Sanctum: Although you can skip most of the dungeon once you get inside, it would be cool to be able to get inside without all the Djinn. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a way to do so.

I haven't done much testing in Madra Catacombs, Osenia Cavern (north of Mikasalla), or Yampi Desert Cave.

mpglticher's video didn't seem to generate much interest in the Golden Sun thread, but I really encourage people to look for uses of the glitch in that game. I probably won't do so, but I did confirm someone's comment on mpglticher's video that it was possible to skip a good chunk of Mercury Lighthouse.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-27 10:59:44 am

TheOthin: 2011-05-27 10:58:47 am

TheOthin: 2011-05-27 10:58:34 am

2011-05-27 10:36:11 am

Switching to this thread because it seems some differences with the RNG may be only relevant in The Lost Age.

I've been trying to work out an effective glitched Normal Mode route for this game. Since the full implications of the Save Retreat glitch haven't been tested (to my knowledge) anywhere in The Lost Age, it's surely not a perfect route, but it's a place to start. The goal for my test run is to get below 7 hours on a non-optimized run with a shoddy emphasis on speed (having zero previous speedrun experience, that's about the extent of what I can do), establishing a solid start for a glitched route without worrying about optimization. To figure out what route would get the Djinn and items necessary to reasonably defeat some of the rather tough bosses, I've been scouting ahead with a test test run, which is a good bit ahead of the other one (test test run is at Gaia Rock; test run is at Air's Rock).

One thing I found is that putting a boss to sleep, especially with Waft, makes the battle far easier; it was how I eventually beat the Aqua Hydra. The chances of success seem to be incredibly low against some these bosses with 40+ Luck stats, but unlike other conditions such as poison, it does seem to be a possibility. It seems that doesn't entirely prevent the Sleep condition from working, as it eventually worked on the Aqua Hydra, but I haven't been able to find any way to make it work against the Serpent. What I've been trying is using Waft on the first turn, then soft resetting if it fails to work, which seems to not reset the game's RNs, allowing things to happen completely differently on the next attempt, but I couldn't seem to get it to work.

So does anyone know if there is something with the RNG of The Lost Age that would prevent this from working on soft resets, or is the chance just really low and I haven't been trying enough? Or is the chance not that low, but I've just been getting bad luck? For that matter, does anyone know how to figure out what the chance is in the first place? Are the chances different if the Sleep Psynergy or a Sleep Bomb is used instead of Waft? Is any of this different between Golden Sun and The Lost Age?

Also, what happened to everyone else who seemed to be posting in these threads?

Switching to this thread because it seems some differences with the RNG may be only relevant in The Lost Age.

I've been trying to work out an effective glitched Normal Mode route for this game. Since the full implications of the Save Retreat glitch haven't been tested (to my knowledge) anywhere in The Lost Age, it's surely not a perfect route, but it's a place to start. The goal for my test run is to get below 7 hours on a non-optimized run with a shoddy emphasis on speed (having zero previous speedrun experience, that's about the extent of what I can do), establishing a solid start for a glitched route without worrying about optimization. To figure out what route would get the Djinn and items necessary to reasonably defeat some of the rather tough bosses, I've been scouting ahead with a test test run, which is a good bit ahead of the other one (test test run is at Gaia Rock; test run is at Air's Rock).

One thing I found is that putting a boss to sleep, especially with Waft, makes the battle far easier; it was how I eventually beat the Aqua Hydra. The chances of success seem to be incredibly low against some these bosses with 40+ Luck stats, but unlike other conditions such as poison, it does seem to be a possibility. It seems that doesn't entirely prevent the Sleep condition from working, as it eventually worked on the Aqua Hydra, but I haven't been able to find any way to make it work against the Serpent. What I've been trying is using Waft on the first turn, then soft resetting if it fails to work, which seems to not reset the game's RNs, allowing things to happen completely differently on the next attempt, but I couldn't seem to get it to work.

So does anyone know if there is something with the RNG of The Lost Age that would prevent this from working on soft resets, or is the chance just really low and I haven't been trying enough? Or is the chance not that low, but I've just been getting bad luck? For that matter, does anyone know how to figure out what the chance is in the first place? Are the chances different if the Sleep Psynergy or a Sleep Bomb is used instead of Waft? Is any of this different between Golden Sun and The Lost Age?

Also, what happened to everyone else who seemed to be posting in these threads?

Manocheese

2011-05-30 03:32:52 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Gondowan early:

I haven't looked into the implications of this. Maybe it will allow us to skip the first trip to Alhafra.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-30 07:21:38 pm

TheOthin: 2011-05-30 07:15:41 pm

TheOthin: 2011-05-30 05:22:19 pm

2011-05-30 04:54:41 pm

Awesome find! But... are you aware that you seem to have embedding disabled?

In any case, I decided to try this on a file before visiting Alhafra to verify that it works and to test the speedrun implications. I don't have a spare file on my cartridge, but if this works, my test files will be obsoleted, so I'm planning on getting rid of one of them to experiment with this if I can replicate it on my early emulator file. However, even trying it a few times after closing the emulator (I assume that's the equivalent of a hard reset), I kept winding up at about the same location, but taking damage multiple times and then winding up on the Madra side. Do you know of a Madra warp near there? I might just assume emulation error... If closing the emulator is still just the equivalent of a soft reset, I'll just assume this works and try it on the cartridge.

Edit: Now that I remember it, even using the emulator's reset shortcut was enough to trigger the first strikes I needed to escape the battles I was forced into on the way there, so that can't be it. But even trying it more times, I couldn't get it to load Kibombo, and I still always wound up taking damage multiple times instead of just once.

Edit2: Decided to go for it on cartridge. Because of the random battles, I had to save right near the loading zone, from which point I tried repeatedly, but kept getting sent to the Madra side. Eventually, I decided to try soft-resets instead, as well as slightly different movements before reaching it, which worked! I'm saved in Kibombo Mountains right now, without having set a foot into Osenia. So I can verify that getting into Gondowan early is definitely possible using the save retreat glitch, although so far, I can't seem to do it reliably or after a hard reset like you could.

Now, since I haven't even visited Madra, it's time to see about that Piers conversation that's programmed into the game but supposed to be impossible to reach. Of course, there's the issue that it's useless, since that means not having the Scoop Gem, and therefore you'd have to turn around right afterw meeting Piers and leave him behind. But it's still worth verifying as possible without cheating; I originally got involved with all of this to verify and document applications of these glitches on Golden Sun Universe, and this is certainly an important application.

Awesome find! But... are you aware that you seem to have embedding disabled?

In any case, I decided to try this on a file before visiting Alhafra to verify that it works and to test the speedrun implications. I don't have a spare file on my cartridge, but if this works, my test files will be obsoleted, so I'm planning on getting rid of one of them to experiment with this if I can replicate it on my early emulator file. However, even trying it a few times after closing the emulator (I assume that's the equivalent of a hard reset), I kept winding up at about the same location, but taking damage multiple times and then winding up on the Madra side. Do you know of a Madra warp near there? I might just assume emulation error... If closing the emulator is still just the equivalent of a soft reset, I'll just assume this works and try it on the cartridge.

Edit: Now that I remember it, even using the emulator's reset shortcut was enough to trigger the first strikes I needed to escape the battles I was forced into on the way there, so that can't be it. But even trying it more times, I couldn't get it to load Kibombo, and I still always wound up taking damage multiple times instead of just once.

Edit2: Decided to go for it on cartridge. Because of the random battles, I had to save right near the loading zone, from which point I tried repeatedly, but kept getting sent to the Madra side. Eventually, I decided to try soft-resets instead, as well as slightly different movements before reaching it, which worked! I'm saved in Kibombo Mountains right now, without having set a foot into Osenia. So I can verify that getting into Gondowan early is definitely possible using the save retreat glitch, although so far, I can't seem to do it reliably or after a hard reset like you could.

Now, since I haven't even visited Madra, it's time to see about that Piers conversation that's programmed into the game but supposed to be impossible to reach. Of course, there's the issue that it's useless, since that means not having the Scoop Gem, and therefore you'd have to turn around right afterw meeting Piers and leave him behind. But it's still worth verifying as possible without cheating; I originally got involved with all of this to verify and document applications of these glitches on Golden Sun Universe, and this is certainly an important application.

Manocheese

Edit history:

Manocheese: 2011-05-31 12:00:11 am

Manocheese: 2011-05-30 10:39:01 pm

2011-05-30 07:39:55 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

I also took damage multiple times when I was trying it. I think that it's the same source of damage being passed over multiple times. I usually get sent to the Madra side as well even when it seems like I'm in the exact same spot, but I found that I was more likely to be sent to the Kibombo side if I did it after a hard reset.

EDIT:

Quote from TheOthin:

Now, since I haven't even visited Madra, it's time to see about that Piers conversation that's programmed into the game but supposed to be impossible to reach.

I had never heard of it, but you're right. After doing Dehkan Plateau, I went straight to Gondowan Cliffs, did the glitch, went to Kibombo, and talked to Piers. The conversation was different. I see you wasted no time adding info about the glitch to GSU, so here's the link if people want to read a transcript of the secret cutscene:

http://goldensunwiki.net/Piers#Trivia

EDIT2: Here's something strange that you can do with the glitch:

I also took damage multiple times when I was trying it. I think that it's the same source of damage being passed over multiple times. I usually get sent to the Madra side as well even when it seems like I'm in the exact same spot, but I found that I was more likely to be sent to the Kibombo side if I did it after a hard reset.

EDIT:

[quote="TheOthin"]Now, since I haven't even visited Madra, it's time to see about that Piers conversation that's programmed into the game but supposed to be impossible to reach.[/quote]

I had never heard of it, but you're right. After doing Dehkan Plateau, I went straight to Gondowan Cliffs, did the glitch, went to Kibombo, and talked to Piers. The conversation was different. I see you wasted no time adding info about the glitch to GSU, so here's the link if people want to read a transcript of the secret cutscene:

http://goldensunwiki.net/Piers#Trivia

EDIT2: Here's something strange that you can do with the glitch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5R67PwG8Nk

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-05-31 01:39:55 pm

TheOthin: 2011-05-31 01:35:01 pm

TheOthin: 2011-05-31 01:30:52 pm

2011-05-31 01:30:02 pm

That makes sense. I seem to be having slightly different luck than you, but it looks like that's all it is.

Anyway, I continued through the game, beat the King Scorpion, and returned to Kibombo, triggering the same cutscene glitch, which made it easy to cross the cliffs a second time, if slow. I'm now four dungeons away from seeing what happens if you destroy the rock on the ship in Alhafra before actually entering it.

On my way to that point, I made some more interesting observations regarding the RNG during the King Scorpion fight. It took a while, since I was at the minimum level with basic weapons and just a few Djinn, so I had several opportunities to observe its attack pattern. Previously, I had been able to get it to defend for the first three turns by following a specific (rather basic) attack pattern, but even with that attack pattern, I hadn't been able to get it to consistently make other specific moves on later turns. What I had noted as the most common, however, was Desert Gasp --> Sand Breath --> Twin Shear for the next three turns. By loading my file as quickly as I could and sticking to attack patterns expending the same numbers of RNs, I was able to get it to use those moves on those turns 100% of the time over a large number of attempts. Notably, this happened independent of whether Desert Gasp and Sand Breath targeted two or three characters. This seems to support my earlier hypothesis that while RNs past the beginning of the battle can be affected by the time spent on the file screen, but the determination based on conditions on the file screen is not particularly sensitive; it is completely reasonable and possible to control those RNs on cartridge, at least to the extent of ensuring that one particular pattern of RNs happens.

What I couldn't control was which characters it would target. I recorded its targets for the three moves a few times to see if I could find a pattern, but I couldn't find anything consistent. The attempts I recorded seem to indicate it attacks the middle character most often (Felix on these attempts, for obvious reasons), but I'm not sure that lines up well with my earlier (unrecorded) observations, and I didn't find anything else that seemed notable. I was trying to find evidence that if it attacked Jenna (left side) with one of the multi-target attacks, it would attack her with Twin Shear, a pattern that seemed to be happening frequently, but when I started recording the targets, it stopped attacking Jenna almost altogether. This would have been helpful for knowing who to heal, but unfortunately, it was ineffective. It was also difficult to get a consistent attack pattern for beyond that point, because the danger of Twin Shear meant I would often have to have characters make different moves depending on who was targeted, and also meant that characters would frequently be downed. Probably should have used my strategy from the first few turns of making different moves to see if I could get it to use something less dangerous... Next time, I guess.

If anyone's interested, this was my strategy for the first few turns:

Jenna: Cannon (standby)
Felix: Echo (standby)
Sheba: Iron (standby), Fog (standby)

Turn 1:
Jenna summons Mars
Felix summons Ramses
Sheba attacks

Turn 2:
Jenna casts Fume
Felix casts Earthquake
Sheba summons Mercury

Turn 3:
Jenna unleashes Cannon
Felix unleashes Echo
Sheba unleashes Iron

Turn 4:
Jenna summons Mars
Felix summons Ramses
Sheba unleashes Fog

Turn 5:
Jenna casts Fume / uses Herb
Felix casts Cure
Sheba uses Herb

Probably not the best strategy, but it seems like a good starting place for controlling its moves.

That makes sense. I seem to be having slightly different luck than you, but it looks like that's all it is.

Anyway, I continued through the game, beat the King Scorpion, and returned to Kibombo, triggering the same cutscene glitch, which made it easy to cross the cliffs a second time, if slow. I'm now four dungeons away from seeing what happens if you destroy the rock on the ship in Alhafra before actually entering it.

On my way to that point, I made some more interesting observations regarding the RNG during the King Scorpion fight. It took a while, since I was at the minimum level with basic weapons and just a few Djinn, so I had several opportunities to observe its attack pattern. Previously, I had been able to get it to defend for the first three turns by following a specific (rather basic) attack pattern, but even with that attack pattern, I hadn't been able to get it to consistently make other specific moves on later turns. What I had noted as the most common, however, was Desert Gasp --> Sand Breath --> Twin Shear for the next three turns. By loading my file as quickly as I could and sticking to attack patterns expending the same numbers of RNs, I was able to get it to use those moves on those turns 100% of the time over a large number of attempts. Notably, this happened independent of whether Desert Gasp and Sand Breath targeted two or three characters. This seems to support my earlier hypothesis that while RNs past the beginning of the battle can be affected by the time spent on the file screen, but the determination based on conditions on the file screen is not particularly sensitive; it is completely reasonable and possible to control those RNs on cartridge, at least to the extent of ensuring that one particular pattern of RNs happens.

What I couldn't control was which characters it would target. I recorded its targets for the three moves a few times to see if I could find a pattern, but I couldn't find anything consistent. The attempts I recorded seem to indicate it attacks the middle character most often (Felix on these attempts, for obvious reasons), but I'm not sure that lines up well with my earlier (unrecorded) observations, and I didn't find anything else that seemed notable. I was trying to find evidence that if it attacked Jenna (left side) with one of the multi-target attacks, it would attack her with Twin Shear, a pattern that seemed to be happening frequently, but when I started recording the targets, it stopped attacking Jenna almost altogether. This would have been helpful for knowing who to heal, but unfortunately, it was ineffective. It was also difficult to get a consistent attack pattern for beyond that point, because the danger of Twin Shear meant I would often have to have characters make different moves depending on who was targeted, and also meant that characters would frequently be downed. Probably should have used my strategy from the first few turns of making different moves to see if I could get it to use something less dangerous... Next time, I guess.

If anyone's interested, this was my strategy for the first few turns:

[spoiler]Jenna: Cannon (standby)
Felix: Echo (standby)
Sheba: Iron (standby), Fog (standby)

Turn 1:
Jenna summons Mars
Felix summons Ramses
Sheba attacks

Turn 2:
Jenna casts Fume
Felix casts Earthquake
Sheba summons Mercury

Turn 3:
Jenna unleashes Cannon
Felix unleashes Echo
Sheba unleashes Iron

Turn 4:
Jenna summons Mars
Felix summons Ramses
Sheba unleashes Fog

Turn 5:
Jenna casts Fume / uses Herb
Felix casts Cure
Sheba uses Herb[/spoiler]

Probably not the best strategy, but it seems like a good starting place for controlling its moves.

NinG

Edit history:

NinG: 2011-05-31 01:50:51 pm

2011-05-31 01:50:17 pm

Hey everyone,
just to let you know, i tried to run this game over at tasvideos a while ago, but cancelled the project because of the mostly unaffectable RNG... However, this can of course be an advantage in a non-TAS speedrun, because you basically just have to follow the same attack pattern over and over to get the same results. One thing about manipulation: While working on the run I found an "action-cancel-trick", that allows you to affect the RNG. You have to choose some sort of attack or heal or something and when you have to choose a target, you cancel the action. This seems to affect the RNG as if you had fully completed the attack / heal / whatever, changing the attack pattern of bosses.. This can be very handy because if you repeat this technique over and over you can force bosses in the attack pattern you want. Downside is of course that it can cost a lot of time, depending on how often you want to / have to use it.

Unfortunately my PC crashed a while ago with many important information about the game / glitches and the RNG on it and I've only backupped some of them. Nevertheless, I try to help where I can.

Hey everyone,
just to let you know, i tried to run this game over at tasvideos a while ago, but cancelled the project because of the mostly unaffectable RNG... However, this can of course be an advantage in a non-TAS speedrun, because you basically just have to follow the same attack pattern over and over to get the same results. One thing about manipulation: While working on the run I found an "action-cancel-trick", that allows you to affect the RNG. You have to choose some sort of attack or heal or something and when you have to choose a target, you cancel the action. This seems to affect the RNG as if you had fully completed the attack / heal / whatever, changing the attack pattern of bosses.. This can be very handy because if you repeat this technique over and over you can force bosses in the attack pattern you want. Downside is of course that it can cost a lot of time, depending on how often you want to / have to use it.

Unfortunately my PC crashed a while ago with many important information about the game / glitches and the RNG on it and I've only backupped some of them. Nevertheless, I try to help where I can.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-06-01 01:11:36 pm

TheOthin: 2011-06-01 01:10:53 pm

TheOthin: 2011-06-01 04:39:22 am

TheOthin: 2011-06-01 04:39:19 am

TheOthin: 2011-06-01 04:38:54 am

TheOthin: 2011-06-01 02:41:47 am

2011-05-31 05:15:31 pm

Spending some time messing around with the emulator and savestates with that trick, it seems to work for changing targets, but not attacks. Or maybe it works for attacks on following turns? I'll have to test more... I certainly don't recall it affecting which attacks bosses would use on the cartridge for the next couple of turns, but it might explain the divergences later in the battle that happened on previous attempts. I was going to test this when I reached the Aqua Hydra, but I decided to see about skipping it. Not having much luck on the cartridge, so I'm working towards that point on the emulator and I'll see about where to go on the cartridge once I get there. It'll also be a good way of testing a possible Aqua Rock skip later.

That said, I can verify that it's possible to retrieve the Black Orb and enter the Lemurian Ship without the first visit to Alhafra, so the rest of the game should be fine. Also, it seems that doing so means that the town doesn't completely update, so Piers is still in his jail cell and the Black Orb is still sitting in the mayor's house just as he complements you on having retrieved it. My response to these oddities was to sanctum warp out of the conversation where you get the Cyclone Chip from the mayor and talk with Karst. I'll probably still have to go back for that conversation eventually, but it should be possible to put it off until the point where it makes absolutely no sense, and I need to verify that for documentation purposes.

On an unrelated note, it seems that for the purposes of resetting the RNG, when the game is played on a Game Boy Player, the system can be soft-reset rather than hard-reset, since it results in a full reset of the GCN's GBA emulator. I verified this by using the Game Boy Player and soft-reseting, successfully forcing the automatic first strike and 100% chance to flee, normally only reliably possible using a hard reset. This should save a bit of time when using the Game Boy Player for recording or other purposes, where a hard reset would normally be necessary.

Edit: Speaking of the RNG, I think the spout thing in Gondowan Cliffs that you activate using Scoop has something to do with the RNG. It's the biggest difference between Cheese's lategame run and my earlygame run in that area, and when I activated the spout on a later attempt on the emulator, I was able to get in the first time I made it to the loading zone. So even though the spout is now completely bypassed with the glitch, I recommend activating it.

Edit2: The script doesn't seem to keep track of coordinates properly in the ship, either, and I can't seem to find a way to move freely out of bounds. Most places where I use the save Retreat glitch, I seem to still be constrained by the boundaries of the room I was already in, and anywhere else, I get stuck. I was able to fall into the first room from the lower part of the room with the Aqua Hydra and get the chest with the Potion you can't get until later... oddly enough, the chest still seems to be closed in the Aqua Hydra's room.

Edit3: Couldn't find any good places to save warp in the ship, so I went ahead to fight the Aqua Hydra. I can't figure this battle out. Most of the time, its first two moves seem fixed. Even if I cancel targets, it doesn't seem to affect the boss's actions on either turn at all, or even affect the damage of my attacks on that turn. And I need a way to keep it from using Raging Flood on Turn 2, but I can't seem to find a good way to get it to do something else. Sometimes, though, it uses Slaver on Turn 1 for no apparent reason, rather than Triple Chomp like usual. I haven't been able to find any plausible cause for it, and I can't make it happen reliably, but it's certainly better than any of its alternatives. I also still haven't been able to find a reliable way to get it to fall asleep at any point - it was how i won the battle on an earlier test run, so I know it's possible, and it makes it easy to finish it off with summons. I'll try experimenting with the emulator and savestates next, to see if I can find something consistent.

Spending some time messing around with the emulator and savestates with that trick, it seems to work for changing targets, but not attacks. Or maybe it works for attacks on following turns? I'll have to test more... I certainly don't recall it affecting which attacks bosses would use on the cartridge for the next couple of turns, but it might explain the divergences later in the battle that happened on previous attempts. I was going to test this when I reached the Aqua Hydra, but I decided to see about skipping it. Not having much luck on the cartridge, so I'm working towards that point on the emulator and I'll see about where to go on the cartridge once I get there. It'll also be a good way of testing a possible Aqua Rock skip later.

That said, I can verify that it's possible to retrieve the Black Orb and enter the Lemurian Ship without the first visit to Alhafra, so the rest of the game should be fine. Also, it seems that doing so means that the town doesn't completely update, so Piers is still in his jail cell and the Black Orb is still sitting in the mayor's house just as he complements you on having retrieved it. My response to these oddities was to sanctum warp out of the conversation where you get the Cyclone Chip from the mayor and talk with Karst. I'll probably still have to go back for that conversation eventually, but it should be possible to put it off until the point where it makes absolutely no sense, and I need to verify that for documentation purposes.

On an unrelated note, it seems that for the purposes of resetting the RNG, when the game is played on a Game Boy Player, the system can be soft-reset rather than hard-reset, since it results in a full reset of the GCN's GBA emulator. I verified this by using the Game Boy Player and soft-reseting, successfully forcing the automatic first strike and 100% chance to flee, normally only reliably possible using a hard reset. This should save a bit of time when using the Game Boy Player for recording or other purposes, where a hard reset would normally be necessary.

Edit: Speaking of the RNG, I think the spout thing in Gondowan Cliffs that you activate using Scoop has something to do with the RNG. It's the biggest difference between Cheese's lategame run and my earlygame run in that area, and when I activated the spout on a later attempt on the emulator, I was able to get in the first time I made it to the loading zone. So even though the spout is now completely bypassed with the glitch, I recommend activating it.

Edit2: The script doesn't seem to keep track of coordinates properly in the ship, either, and I can't seem to find a way to move freely out of bounds. Most places where I use the save Retreat glitch, I seem to still be constrained by the boundaries of the room I was already in, and anywhere else, I get stuck. I was able to fall into the first room from the lower part of the room with the Aqua Hydra and get the chest with the Potion you can't get until later... oddly enough, the chest still seems to be closed in the Aqua Hydra's room.

Edit3: Couldn't find any good places to save warp in the ship, so I went ahead to fight the Aqua Hydra. I can't figure this battle out. Most of the time, its first two moves seem fixed. Even if I cancel targets, it doesn't seem to affect the boss's actions on either turn at all, or even affect the damage of my attacks on that turn. And I need a way to keep it from using Raging Flood on Turn 2, but I can't seem to find a good way to get it to do something else. Sometimes, though, it uses Slaver on Turn 1 for no apparent reason, rather than Triple Chomp like usual. I haven't been able to find any plausible cause for it, and I can't make it happen reliably, but it's certainly better than any of its alternatives. I also still haven't been able to find a reliable way to get it to fall asleep at any point - it was how i won the battle on an earlier test run, so I know it's possible, and it makes it easy to finish it off with summons. I'll try experimenting with the emulator and savestates next, to see if I can find something consistent.

Manocheese

2011-06-01 06:48:42 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

After recording the glitchy cutscene video, I got the Black Crystal, got the ship, and went to Alhafra. Everything is the same as if you were going there for the first time normally (except that Alex might not be there if you've activated the cutscene at Champa already). Briggs's men are standing around on the ship, so you can't fix it without fighting him. Going to Gondowan early should still save some time, though, since you'll only need to make one trip to Alhafra and the Briggs battle will be very quick.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2011-06-01 07:14:29 pm

TheOthin: 2011-06-01 07:12:17 pm

2011-06-01 07:07:52 pm

That's less helpful; there are still those annoying cutscenes to deal with. Still good, though, and I'm inclined to believe that there might be some event trigger that can get around all that. I'll have to see about it once I can find a way past the Aqua Hydra. Of course, I could just level up to a reasonable level, but I intend to speedrun this game once I get out of school in a couple weeks, and I need a good way to get through the game at low levels before doing so.