Golden Sun: The Lost Age

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 04:41:24 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 04:14:45 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 04:14:30 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 04:14:02 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 04:13:38 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 04:13:34 am

2012-02-16 04:00:12 am

Continuing the discussion from the other thread here:

I'm not sure what to think about the Serpent. The levels and Djinn the guy uses seem troublesome, especially for any%, but it might be worth it to skip most of Gaia Rock. The TAS rigs random battles to get Exp, but it seems slow, and the levels aren't as high anyway. Chances are, it's still possible to do it at lower levels; it seems like you just need to survive long enough to get to a second summon rush. The problem is, the other parts of Gaia Rock don't actually take that long, from the looks of it; any preparation that takes an extensive amount of time wouldn't be worth it. But it's worth considering, especially for 100%.

On another note, I found another use for the Retreat glitch in Air's Rock, this time for the exterior: From the start of the sand maze, take the direct route right up to the top to get to the first ladder you can use to reach the second room. You can't proceed directly to the rest of the room from there, but that's fine: go as far to the right as you can in the cliff area, activate Retreat mode, and save. When you reset, you'll wind up back in a glitched version of the first room; you should be on the ground level, where you can move around as normal. The whirlwind stones are now gone, which makes it impossible to clear the sand, but their absence leaves a route you can take to get to the ladder on the far right side to get to the cliff area again; from here, you can continue all the way through the cliff area and get to the interior. (There shouldn't be any sand in the path you need to take in the glitched room, so not being able to remove it isn't an issue.) This skips almost all of the sand maze, and I think it skips part of the first cliff room as well. I'll see if I can make a video of it.

We may be able to find other shortcuts with similar methods, although it probably won't work just anywhere. Save warping to get out of bounds seems to have more issues than in GS1, though: it doesn't seem possible to go really far to the left, just the top, where you can find some doors that generally don't seem as flexible as say the GS1 doors: the Gondowan Cliffs skip is great, but it's still limited to an exit from the main room.

Continuing the discussion from the [url=http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/golden_sun_the_lost_age_1002.html]other thread[/url] here:

I'm not sure what to think about the Serpent. The levels and Djinn the guy uses seem troublesome, especially for any%, but it might be worth it to skip most of Gaia Rock. The TAS rigs random battles to get Exp, but it seems slow, and the levels aren't as high anyway. Chances are, it's still possible to do it at lower levels; it seems like you just need to survive long enough to get to a second summon rush. The problem is, the other parts of Gaia Rock don't actually take that long, from the looks of it; any preparation that takes an extensive amount of time wouldn't be worth it. But it's worth considering, especially for 100%.

On another note, I found another use for the Retreat glitch in Air's Rock, this time for the exterior: From the start of the sand maze, take the direct route right up to the top to get to the first ladder you can use to reach the second room. You can't proceed directly to the rest of the room from there, but that's fine: go as far to the right as you can in the cliff area, activate Retreat mode, and save. When you reset, you'll wind up back in a glitched version of the first room; you should be on the ground level, where you can move around as normal. The whirlwind stones are now gone, which makes it impossible to clear the sand, but their absence leaves a route you can take to get to the ladder on the far right side to get to the cliff area again; from here, you can continue all the way through the cliff area and get to the interior. (There shouldn't be any sand in the path you need to take in the glitched room, so not being able to remove it isn't an issue.) This skips almost all of the sand maze, and I think it skips part of the first cliff room as well. I'll see if I can make a video of it.

We may be able to find other shortcuts with similar methods, although it probably won't work just anywhere. Save warping to get out of bounds seems to have more issues than in GS1, though: it doesn't seem possible to go really far to the left, just the top, where you can find some doors that generally don't seem as flexible as say the GS1 doors: the Gondowan Cliffs skip is great, but it's still limited to an exit from the main room.

Serris

2012-02-16 06:32:19 am

Quote from TheOthin:

Serris posted an Easy Mode strategy a while ago that involved getting the Sylph Rapier, among other items, to get enough damage multipliers combined with maxed stats to kill the Serpent in one turn, removing the need to weaken it and thereby skipping almost all of Gaia Rock. I haven't done the exact math, but it sounds to me like if you can do that, you could get a two turn kill without the Sylph Rapier even with its maximum healing, costing less time than the trip to Yallam while still avoiding the even lengthier Gaia Rock exploration.

If you feel like looking into it:

http://goldensunwiki.net/Category:Damage-multiplying_effects

It's been a while, so I'm not sure about the details, but I guess the Sour Djinn is the closest you'll get to a Sylph Rapier substitute, especially in a one-turn-kill scenario. No idea if you can get in enough damage with that though.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 09:52:07 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 09:51:40 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 09:50:46 am

2012-02-16 09:49:07 am

Sour is really out of the way, though. What I'm saying is, the Serpent has 3500 HP, and recovers 2400 per turn. If you can do 3500 damage in one turn with an attack lineup including the Sylph Rapier, then you should be able to do 3000 in one turn without it, which will do enough over two turns to kill it even with one turn of its massive healing. The extra turn shouldn't cost much time, certainly less time than it should take to get unnecessary items or Djinn.

Looking at the Normal Mode Serpent kill video, it uses Meteor/Thor/Boreas for the power boosts, then casts them again all together later, following up with Judgment to kill it before it can heal. It's feasible to get the necessary four Mars/Jupiter/Mercury Djinn before the Serpent fight on an any% speedrun, but Venus is a problem; it would require getting Mud, Flower, or Meld, which are all very out of the way. Looking at the numbers, Cybele can work as a substitute, but only if it's used earlier for the power bonus as well. So the hard part is just surviving long enough to get from the first summon rush to the second, and I think it's feasible to engineer that as with the video, but it won't be easy. Regardless of anything else, it'll need to be done with lower levels, less Djinn, and worse equipment than the video, and tossing an extra summon into the mix. It might take some time preparing things, as well, but I think it's feasible to keep the preparations less than the ~10 minutes saved from skipping the lights part, and it'll probably be worth it for the time saved in that battle and later ones.

It'd be more feasible on 100% due to the additional Djinn, although I'm not sure about the best times to get them. Ether/Spark/Sour, for example, would likely be fastest to get during endgame cleanup with Teleport and Hover to fly your ship to them from Alhafra. Regardless, it helps any% that this seems to highlight ~4 Djinn of each element during the Eastern Sea portion as the amount to go for. I'll have to see about what conditions make this feasible.

Sour is really out of the way, though. What I'm saying is, the Serpent has 3500 HP, and recovers 2400 per turn. If you can do 3500 damage in one turn with an attack lineup including the Sylph Rapier, then you should be able to do 3000 in one turn without it, which will do enough over two turns to kill it even with one turn of its massive healing. The extra turn shouldn't cost much time, certainly less time than it should take to get unnecessary items or Djinn.
 
Looking at the Normal Mode Serpent kill video, it uses Meteor/Thor/Boreas for the power boosts, then casts them again all together later, following up with Judgment to kill it before it can heal. It's feasible to get the necessary four Mars/Jupiter/Mercury Djinn before the Serpent fight on an any% speedrun, but Venus is a problem; it would require getting Mud, Flower, or Meld, which are all very out of the way. Looking at the numbers, Cybele can work as a substitute, but only if it's used earlier for the power bonus as well. So the hard part is just surviving long enough to get from the first summon rush to the second, and I think it's feasible to engineer that as with the video, but it won't be easy. Regardless of anything else, it'll need to be done with lower levels, less Djinn, and worse equipment than the video, and tossing an extra summon into the mix. It might take some time preparing things, as well, but I think it's feasible to keep the preparations less than the ~10 minutes saved from skipping the lights part, and it'll probably be worth it for the time saved in that battle and later ones.
 
It'd be more feasible on 100% due to the additional Djinn, although I'm not sure about the best times to get them. Ether/Spark/Sour, for example, would likely be fastest to get during endgame cleanup with Teleport and Hover to fly your ship to them from Alhafra. Regardless, it helps any% that this seems to highlight ~4 Djinn of each element during the Eastern Sea portion as the amount to go for. I'll have to see about what conditions make this feasible.

Serris

2012-02-16 10:13:19 am

I know what you're saying, the question is whether you can actually make it work. I don't even know where you're getting those numbers from, considering the Mad Zephyr x2 is actually your strongest attack and I don't remember whether my setup even allowed for a one-turn-kill. Have you done any testing? Also, Sour isn't that far out of the way at all, hence why I mentioned it as the best (not necessarily good) Sylph Rapier substitute.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 11:21:09 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 11:20:47 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 11:19:55 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 11:00:02 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 10:54:51 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 10:54:19 am

2012-02-16 10:53:31 am

I haven't tested any Easy Mode files; my math is based largely on guesswork and wishful thinking, so maybe not.

Sour is in south Osenia near Mikasalla. I haven't been going anywhere near that area on my (incomplete) test runs; my first visit to Osenia ends after getting the Scoop Gem, and when I return for Air's Rock and the Alhafra events, I already have the ship. It seems to me that outside of 100%, going anywhere south of Air's Rock is just a huge and unnecessary detour. I might be missing something, but this is the any% route I've been thinking would work best:

Prologue
Daila sanctum warp
Kandorean Temple (skip to end, get Fog)
Daila sanctum warp
Dehkan Plateau (skip to Madra)
Get Iron
Madra (enter/exit)
Dehkan Plateau (from back, get Pound Cube, get Cannon)
Madra sanctum warp
Yampi Desert (get Blitz, get Scoop Gem)
Madra sanctum warp
Gondowan Cliffs (skip to other side)
Kibombo Mountains
Gabomba Statue (get Steel)
Kibombo Mountains (get Waft, skip to Madra)
Madra (enter/exit)
Gondowan Cliffs (get Kindle, get Healing Fungus)
Madra sanctum warp (get Char)
Lemurian Ship
Shrine of the Sea God
Daila
Air's Rock (skip stuff)
Daila sanctum warp
Shrine of the Sea God (get Breath)
Apojii Islands
Aqua Rock (get Steam)
Apojii Islands sanctum warp
Get Wheeze
Tundaria Tower (get Reflux)
Apojii Islands sanctum warp
Alhafra (fight Briggs)
Gaia Rock (skip lights)
Ankohl Ruins
Champa
Sea of Time
Lemuria

At this point, nothing really to add regarding the remainder of the game beyond your route and grabbing some Djinn like Chill and Gel along the way. I indicated Djinn obtained setting up for the Serpent fight, but otherwise, not going into unnecessary detail, and I'm not sure about some details of the sailing order either. And yes, I realize the paradox of setting up an any% route while planning a 100% run that would need a route with huge differences.

Edit: Rethinking Sour, my route includes a detour for Kindle and Char which probably takes more than twice as long, but it seems worth it for the upcoming boss fights. I don't think Sour is necessary for Normal Mode any% when it's easy enough to summon Boreas regardless, but if Easy Mode is skipping most of that and just needs Sour's extra damage for the quick kill, it's probably worth it there as well.

I haven't tested any Easy Mode files; my math is based largely on guesswork and wishful thinking, so maybe not.

Sour is in south Osenia near Mikasalla. I haven't been going anywhere near that area on my (incomplete) test runs; my first visit to Osenia ends after getting the Scoop Gem, and when I return for Air's Rock and the Alhafra events, I already have the ship. It seems to me that outside of 100%, going anywhere south of Air's Rock is just a huge and unnecessary detour. I might be missing something, but this is the any% route I've been thinking would work best:

Prologue
Daila sanctum warp
Kandorean Temple (skip to end, get Fog)
Daila sanctum warp
Dehkan Plateau (skip to Madra)
Get Iron
Madra (enter/exit)
Dehkan Plateau (from back, get Pound Cube, get Cannon)
Madra sanctum warp
Yampi Desert (get Blitz, get Scoop Gem)
Madra sanctum warp
Gondowan Cliffs (skip to other side)
Kibombo Mountains
Gabomba Statue (get Steel)
Kibombo Mountains (get Waft, skip to Madra)
Madra (enter/exit)
Gondowan Cliffs (get Kindle, get Healing Fungus)
Madra sanctum warp (get Char)
Lemurian Ship
Shrine of the Sea God
Daila
Air's Rock (skip stuff)
Daila sanctum warp
Shrine of the Sea God (get Breath)
Apojii Islands
Aqua Rock (get Steam)
Apojii Islands sanctum warp
Get Wheeze
Tundaria Tower (get Reflux)
Apojii Islands sanctum warp
Alhafra (fight Briggs)
Gaia Rock (skip lights)
Ankohl Ruins
Champa
Sea of Time
Lemuria

At this point, nothing really to add regarding the remainder of the game beyond your route and grabbing some Djinn like Chill and Gel along the way. I indicated Djinn obtained setting up for the Serpent fight, but otherwise, not going into unnecessary detail, and I'm not sure about some details of the sailing order either. And yes, I realize the paradox of setting up an any% route while planning a 100% run that would need a route with huge differences.

Edit: Rethinking Sour, my route includes a detour for Kindle and Char which probably takes more than twice as long, but it seems worth it for the upcoming boss fights. I don't think Sour is necessary for Normal Mode any% when it's easy enough to summon Boreas regardless, but if Easy Mode is skipping most of that and just needs Sour's extra damage for the quick kill, it's probably worth it there as well.

FlamingMage

2012-02-16 11:44:32 am

If the RNG is as similar to GS as I think, you shouldn't worry too much about bosses. They're quite easily manipulated after hard resets. But I do know that there are some differences in the RNG, so maybe they're not so reliable. Any tests anyone? Wink

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 03:06:28 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 02:03:34 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 01:59:14 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-16 12:01:43 pm

2012-02-16 11:59:00 am

I ran into some serious problems with that when I was going for a rather minimalist any% run; I made some posts about it earlier in this thread. It seems that in GS2, after a hard reset, they spend a few turns being predictable as long as you keep doing the same thing; after that point, they seem to start acting randomly. I'm not sure what determines it; I noticed a few patterns of similar actions when they first started to diverge, but keeping control of them throughout a full battle seems difficult if not impossible. So there definitely seem to be differences that make bosses more of an issue than in GS1.

Also, I'm specifically referring to the Aqua Hydra, the Serpent, and Poseidon. Poseidon and the Aqua Hydra are both weak to Mars, so having Tiamat and Meteor available against them seems worthwhile no matter what. As for the Serpent, Meteor is needed to kill it fast enough to break through its healing when skipping the lights, which should save a ton of time.

Serris

2012-02-17 03:06:16 am

Well, of course the Sour instead of Sylph Rapier suggestion was for Easy mode only, so assuming that Sour would work as a Sylph Rapier substitute, you only need to compare the time it takes to get Sour to the time it takes to get a Sylph Rapier.

TheOthin

2012-02-17 06:16:44 am

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure Sour is faster. ~1 minute to ~2 minutes, compared to ~10 minutes for not doing the quick kill at all.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-20 07:34:49 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-20 07:33:16 pm

2012-02-20 07:27:02 pm

Decided to start a test run with the any% route I posted, because 100% is taking forever to reach an agreement on and any% is better anyway.

Does anyone know exactly how the level-up system works? On my file, LV6 Sheba as a Seer, with Iron equipped, reached 40 Agility, just enough to heal before the King Scorpion could attack (it has 39 Agility), which changed the fight entirely and made it much easier to defeat. So I would recommend making sure she can get her Agility that high for future runs, but I don't know where to find information on how the stat gains work to know if it's a minimum and she would always have at least that much Agility after one level-up, or higher than the minimum and might require some extent of luck manipulation to work.

This all keeping in mind that Seer has a lower Agility multiplier than Wind Seer (x1.1 vs. x1.3), but Iron gives a +3 Agility boost to offset some of the loss.

Current time after the King Scorpion battle is 0:35, although I've also recorded the times for my other saves so far. There's definitely room for improvement so far, but I'm not sure how much. One issue is, I don't think I'm scrolling through text as fast as I could, even with the speed changed in the options. I use my thumbs to alternate pressing A and B; does anyone know a better way?

Decided to start a test run with the any% route I posted, because 100% is taking forever to reach an agreement on and any% is better anyway.

Does anyone know exactly how the level-up system works? On my file, LV6 Sheba as a Seer, with Iron equipped, reached 40 Agility, just enough to heal before the King Scorpion could attack (it has 39 Agility), which changed the fight entirely and made it much easier to defeat. So I would recommend making sure she can get her Agility that high for future runs, but I don't know where to find information on how the stat gains work to know if it's a minimum and she would always have at least that much Agility after one level-up, or higher than the minimum and might require some extent of luck manipulation to work.

This all keeping in mind that Seer has a lower Agility multiplier than Wind Seer (x1.1 vs. x1.3), but Iron gives a +3 Agility boost to offset some of the loss.

Current time after the King Scorpion battle is 0:35, although I've also recorded the times for my other saves so far. There's definitely room for improvement so far, but I'm not sure how much. One issue is, I don't think I'm scrolling through text as fast as I could, even with the speed changed in the options. I use my thumbs to alternate pressing A and B; does anyone know a better way?

FlamingMage

2012-02-20 09:17:33 pm

I play on the SP, so I mash A/B/and L simultaneously. L works like the A button, so I could theoretically scroll faster; honestly, its just getting into a rhythm with me that speeds it up the most.

Also, if its like GS1, level ups give you a boost to all attributes, but that boost varies slightly based on the RNG; so, in effect, there are 'perfect levels' where all your stats go up by the max amount, and then levels of decreasing value from there as all the values decline.

See this guide for what I discussed above much clearer / an explanation: http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/468548-golden-sun/faqs/39609

TheOthin

2012-02-21 04:25:42 am

Well, I'm trying to figure out the exact details for the GS1 characters. I decided to start a new emulator file to test the results of Sheba's first level up on a new file, where I could save before the level up and reset until I got different results. The first two times, she got +4 Agility; with Iron equipped, this put her at 38 Agility. The third time, she got +3 Agility, which just left her with 37 Agility. So if it's still just two possibilities with her, I don't see how she could reach 40 Agility with Iron at LV6, even though I know that's precisely what she got. Does she get automatically leveled up before the game starts to LV5, so her base stats aren't set in stone?

FlamingMage

2012-02-21 09:00:13 am

Now that you mention that, I do remember hearing that characters start with semi-random stats. I discounted it as a rumor, but I guess it makes some sense that the game just forces four level ups without telling you about them...odd...

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-21 01:41:43 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-21 01:41:27 pm

2012-02-21 01:39:47 pm

I'll have to look into this a bit more. If it's determined at the start of the game, while you can't get Sheba until ~10 minutes in, it might be a bit of an issue. On the other hand, it can be dealt with by leaving both Echo and Iron on Sheba throughout the battle to make her a Diviner, and certainly fast enough, at least at LV6. I don't remember being able to get Felix to do much damage with Echo in that fight, anyway.

What might be more of an issue is randomness with the characters later, if they need specific stats. Specific Djinn could also be an issue, with the GS1 team having random Djinn, but I don't think the remainder of the game at that point will be too much of a challenge for it to be a huge issue.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-23 01:51:19 pm

2012-02-23 01:47:13 pm

Poseidon is an issue.

I'm fighting him on my test test run, with my characters around LV23, much higher than they'll likely be on an actual run, and I'm having serious problems surviving long enough to defeat him. My current plan is to summon Meteor repeatedly - if Jenna summons it four times, it should be enough to kill Poseidon. I only have four Mars Djinn, but I spread them around a bit to speed up the process. Meanwhile, Sheba spams Shade, while Felix and Piers heal. I don't know if it's just my execution, but this seems like the best way to last throughout the battle, yet I've never summoned Meteor more than twice.

Aside from the levels, this file mostly has equipment I'd be able to feasibly get on a speedrun and only Djinn that are on my planned route, but it's two short of the planned Djinn setup, missing Blitz and Steam. I figure the lack of Blitz isn't too consequential at this point, and the lack of Steam is made up for by the higher HP this team has. I intend to go through multiple test runs under planned speedrun conditions (such as the one I've already mentioned, 35 minutes in), but I'm trying to catch other important details beforehand on this run, such as being reminded at the top of Tundaria Tower that the Burst Brooch is inaccessible without Reveal. And maybe any route changes I'll need to make for boss prep and the like, is I can't find a better way to deal with Poseidon with what I have now.

Does anyone know a better way of fighting Poseidon with limited levels/Djinn/equipment? I've always found him to put up quite a bit of a fight, but never this much. Making things worse, I can't predict his actions for long at all; his two on the first turn stay the same after a hard reset, but even with the same actions, he starts changing what he does as soon as the second turn. So manipulating and predicting his attacks doesn't seem to be an option at all.

Poseidon is an issue.

I'm fighting him on my test test run, with my characters around LV23, much higher than they'll likely be on an actual run, and I'm having serious problems surviving long enough to defeat him. My current plan is to summon Meteor repeatedly - if Jenna summons it four times, it should be enough to kill Poseidon. I only have four Mars Djinn, but I spread them around a bit to speed up the process. Meanwhile, Sheba spams Shade, while Felix and Piers heal. I don't know if it's just my execution, but this seems like the best way to last throughout the battle, yet I've never summoned Meteor more than twice.

Aside from the levels, this file mostly has equipment I'd be able to feasibly get on a speedrun and only Djinn that are on my planned route, but it's two short of the planned Djinn setup, missing Blitz and Steam. I figure the lack of Blitz isn't too consequential at this point, and the lack of Steam is made up for by the higher HP this team has. I intend to go through multiple test runs under planned speedrun conditions (such as the one I've already mentioned, 35 minutes in), but I'm trying to catch other important details beforehand on this run, such as being reminded at the top of Tundaria Tower that the Burst Brooch is inaccessible without Reveal. And maybe any route changes I'll need to make for boss prep and the like, is I can't find a better way to deal with Poseidon with what I have now.

Does anyone know a better way of fighting Poseidon with limited levels/Djinn/equipment? I've always found him to put up quite a bit of a fight, but never this much. Making things worse, I can't predict his actions for long at all; his two on the first turn stay the same after a hard reset, but even with the same actions, he starts changing what he does as soon as the second turn. So manipulating and predicting his attacks doesn't seem to be an option at all.

Manocheese

2012-02-23 01:57:01 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Can you post a full list of the Djinn you will have at that point?

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-23 02:20:50 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-23 02:20:11 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-23 02:01:28 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-23 02:00:59 pm

2012-02-23 02:00:20 pm

Echo
Iron
Steel

Cannon
Kindle
Char
Reflux

Breath
Blitz
Waft
Wheeze

Fog
Spring
Shade
Steam

For a speedrun, those are the Djinn I would have. For this test run, as I noted, I have all of the above except Blitz and Steam.

Edit: Seems the Viking Helm is quick enough to obtain and can give Felix some extra resistance against most of Poseidon's attacks, but I'm not sure how much that'll help things. Unfortunately, there are no random item drops available up to that point that could increase Mercury resistance; it would be easy enough to manipulate a few drops if there were.

Manocheese

2012-02-23 02:24:19 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

I'll post some notes I wrote when I was thinking about doing an SS a few years ago. My levels were 23/23/23/22. Piers had the Viking Helm. This was my Djinn configuration:

Jenna: Echo, Iron, Steel
Felix: Fog, Spring, Shade, Chill
Piers: Breath, Blitz, Waft, Wheeze
Sheba: Steam, Cannon, Reflux

Quote:

Make sure that Jenna has the Trident equipped [for 20 Mercury resistance]. Give the Waters of Life [I was planning on getting one from Aqua Rock, one from Izumo, and one from the shops] to Felix, then Piers, then Jenna. Give the Psy Crystals [I was planning on getting one from Alhafra and one from the shops] to Piers and Jenna.

Start with Trident (Jenna), Wish Well (Felix), Impact (Piers, casting on Jenna), Steam (Sheba). Set Steam on the next turn. Jenna should use the Trident almost every turn (Echo doesn't seem to be any stronger). Felix should use Wish Well on most turns, even if everyone is at full HP [This is because Poseidon will probably attack you before Felix does anything]. Piers should keep Jenna's attack high and use Breath if necessary. Sheba should keep the party's resistance high. Use summons with Piers and Sheba. Felix is the slowest, so wait until he has less than 13 PP to use a Psy Crystal [Wish Well costs 13 PP. If Felix has less than that, cast Wish Well and use a Psy Crystal in the same turn. The Psy Crystal will take effect first because Felix is the slowest]. Piers should use his Psy Crystal first. If Piers has nothing to do, attack. If Sheba has nothing to do, use Wind Slash. Defend whenever necessary. If someone dies, revive them immediately (preferably with Felix) and raise their resistance again.

I don't remember my motivation for everything, but this strategy worked pretty well. Both Felix and Piers have Wish Well, which is important. You will probably want to look for a faster strategy using Meteor in a segmented run, though.

I'll post some notes I wrote when I was thinking about doing an SS a few years ago. My levels were 23/23/23/22. Piers had the Viking Helm. This was my Djinn configuration:

Jenna: Echo, Iron, Steel
Felix: Fog, Spring, Shade, Chill
Piers: Breath, Blitz, Waft, Wheeze
Sheba: Steam, Cannon, Reflux

[quote]Make sure that Jenna has the Trident equipped [for 20 Mercury resistance]. Give the Waters of Life [I was planning on getting one from Aqua Rock, one from Izumo, and one from the shops] to Felix, then Piers, then Jenna. Give the Psy Crystals [I was planning on getting one from Alhafra and one from the shops] to Piers and Jenna.

Start with Trident (Jenna), Wish Well (Felix), Impact (Piers, casting on Jenna), Steam (Sheba). Set Steam on the next turn. Jenna should use the Trident almost every turn (Echo doesn't seem to be any stronger). Felix should use Wish Well on most turns, even if everyone is at full HP [This is because Poseidon will probably attack you before Felix does anything]. Piers should keep Jenna's attack high and use Breath if necessary. Sheba should keep the party's resistance high. Use summons with Piers and Sheba. Felix is the slowest, so wait until he has less than 13 PP to use a Psy Crystal [Wish Well costs 13 PP. If Felix has less than that, cast Wish Well and use a Psy Crystal in the same turn. The Psy Crystal will take effect first because Felix is the slowest]. Piers should use his Psy Crystal first. If Piers has nothing to do, attack. If Sheba has nothing to do, use Wind Slash. Defend whenever necessary. If someone dies, revive them immediately (preferably with Felix) and raise their resistance again.[/quote]

I don't remember my motivation for everything, but this strategy worked pretty well. Both Felix and Piers have Wish Well, which is important. You will probably want to look for a faster strategy using Meteor in a segmented run, though.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-23 05:43:38 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-23 05:37:54 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-23 05:37:03 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-23 05:35:17 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-23 02:56:05 pm

2012-02-23 02:53:24 pm

Going for Wish and Water of Life is definitely a good idea. Revive and Wish Well will probably be out of reach for a speedrun, though; Felix won't reach the necessary levels and I don't have enough Venus Djinn for Piers to learn them. He could likely reach LV22 to learn it as a Shaman, but he needs to be LV24 to learn it as an Ascetic or a Scholar. He's LV24 on this test run with higher levels; I can see him reaching LV22 on a speedrun, but not LV24.

What I'm thinking now for a run with all the Djinn is having Piers and Sheba spam Wish while Felix casts Cure Well and helps burn through Djinn so Jenna can summon Meteor. I could probably also get away with having Sheba use Steam and Shade from time to time. I'll have to gather the remaining Djinn to try it on my file, so I'll just have to hope that I win by enough of a margin with the same Djinn on hand to win at lower levels as well.

My previous strategy has Felix and Piers each take one Mars Djinn, so they can unleash it whenever necessary and make it possible to summon Meteor potentially every four turns. With this, I can have Felix take one of the Djinn, which will slow Meteor down to every five turns and require Jenna to be spamming the Djinn constantly, but the better healing should make up for it.

Edit: On my test file, I was able to beat Poseidon with that setup, although it was heavily reliant on Piers and his Wish Well. The fact that I could rely on him to keep my team at full HP freed up a lot of time for Sheba to spam Steam and Shade; Felix's main job became summoning Mercury and occasionally Nereid so they'd be Set again. I don't think he ever needed to heal in the battle. I only needed one Water of Life, which is good because the two you get in the field are rather slow to get, although I'll probably go for the Izumo one regardless.

It was only my second real attempt, and faster than I thought; Poseidon died on the third Meteor. It wasn't even at full power, either; I had to revive Jenna earlier, so the damage was in the 1100s instead of in the 1500s like after the power boost from an earlier Meteor summon. I didn't check the exact numbers involved, but if Jenna manages to stay conscious throughout the battle, that should offer at least 400 damage of leeway to still win on the third Meteor summon, which will hopefully be enough to make up for any losses from lower levels or different strategies, and I don't think those will make too big of a difference. It wasn't a close battle, either; I could have kept going for a while if necessary, although Piers would have needed a Psy Crystal, which I had on hand. So I have high hopes for this general strategy working eventually for a lower-level run. The main hurdle will be adjusting to getting less healing from Piers, but his healing was often overkill, so with a little luck, things should all work out.

Going for Wish and Water of Life is definitely a good idea. Revive and Wish Well will probably be out of reach for a speedrun, though; Felix won't reach the necessary levels and I don't have enough Venus Djinn for Piers to learn them. He could likely reach LV22 to learn it as a Shaman, but he needs to be LV24 to learn it as an Ascetic or a Scholar. He's LV24 on this test run with higher levels; I can see him reaching LV22 on a speedrun, but not LV24.

What I'm thinking now for a run with all the Djinn is having Piers and Sheba spam Wish while Felix casts Cure Well and helps burn through Djinn so Jenna can summon Meteor. I could probably also get away with having Sheba use Steam and Shade from time to time. I'll have to gather the remaining Djinn to try it on my file, so I'll just have to hope that I win by enough of a margin with the same Djinn on hand to win at lower levels as well.

My previous strategy has Felix and Piers each take one Mars Djinn, so they can unleash it whenever necessary and make it possible to summon Meteor potentially every four turns. With this, I can have Felix take one of the Djinn, which will slow Meteor down to every five turns and require Jenna to be spamming the Djinn constantly, but the better healing should make up for it.

Edit: On my test file, I was able to beat Poseidon with that setup, although it was heavily reliant on Piers and his Wish Well. The fact that I could rely on him to keep my team at full HP freed up a lot of time for Sheba to spam Steam and Shade; Felix's main job became summoning Mercury and occasionally Nereid so they'd be Set again. I don't think he ever needed to heal in the battle. I only needed one Water of Life, which is good because the two you get in the field are rather slow to get, although I'll probably go for the Izumo one regardless.

It was only my second real attempt, and faster than I thought; Poseidon died on the third Meteor. It wasn't even at full power, either; I had to revive Jenna earlier, so the damage was in the 1100s instead of in the 1500s like after the power boost from an earlier Meteor summon. I didn't check the exact numbers involved, but if Jenna manages to stay conscious throughout the battle, that should offer at least 400 damage of leeway to still win on the third Meteor summon, which will hopefully be enough to make up for any losses from lower levels or different strategies, and I don't think those will make too big of a difference. It wasn't a close battle, either; I could have kept going for a while if necessary, although Piers would have needed a Psy Crystal, which I had on hand. So I have high hopes for this general strategy working eventually for a lower-level run. The main hurdle will be adjusting to getting less healing from Piers, but his healing was often overkill, so with a little luck, things should all work out.

TheOthin

2012-02-25 05:51:08 am

As I expected, Moapa and the Dragons were easy using a similar strategy. I'll have to apply that strategy to earlier bosses on my future runs.

Doom Dragon is more of an issue. I've only tried it once, but it was an extremely long battle, and since I didn't have any way to do real damage to it other than summons, it took a LOT of summons. I'll try it more and hopefully have more to say about it, but in the meantime, any thoughts on fast, effective strategies?

Manocheese

2012-02-25 10:30:47 am

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

My strategy was to make Isaac the main attacker and have everyone else support him. Isaac gets the Sol Blade, Valkyrie Mail, and an Aegis Shield (from the Lemurian fountain; there are some Lucky Medals that take very little time to get). The critical boosts from Vakyrie Mail and Aegis Shield may not be necessary in a segmented run, though. Isaac also gets 5 Mars Djinn to make him a Barbarian for high attack. If you use Impact on him twice, he can do upwards of 700 damage with a single Megiddo. Isaac was at level 32 when I was testing this strategy.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-25 11:13:23 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-25 11:12:52 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-25 11:12:50 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-25 11:12:38 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-25 10:53:58 am

TheOthin: 2012-02-25 10:53:56 am

2012-02-25 10:52:01 am

Even with segments, a 35% chance isn't much over the course of such a long battle. I'll go for the armor and shield and give it a shot. I could go for Hyper Boots also, but I'm not sure they're worth it here.

My original plan involved summons at the beginning for the power boosts, since the first phase is so weak that I could recover easily. This should further increase Megiddo's damage. If I can get to the third phase mostly on Megiddo, I can keep the summons ready to let loose a full summon rush at the third phase; if a full summon rush gets through from both teams, it should be enough for a fast kill against the otherwise toughest and longest form.

My original plan was to set up for that, but I couldn't keep it in place because I needed to keep using the summons I was preparing in order to quickly kill the first and second forms. This should solve that.

On an unrelated note, how exactly does Weaken work? The Hard Mode Serpent kill uses it to do enough damage with the summons, but I don't know of any precise information on its accuracy or duration. According to the Hard Mode video, Weaken didn't have the best likelihood of working and only lasted until the end of the next turn. I've seen it last longer against random enemies with much lower Luck, but against the Doom Dragon, I couldn't get it to work at all with several attempts. The Doom Dragon has 50 Luck, just 4 more than the Serpent's 46, so if it never works on the Doom Dragon, the odds don't seem great for the Serpent. If it's feasible to hit it with Weaken once or twice, it could make the Djinn work throughout the battle much easier, but that's only if it's feasible.

An unrelated thing I've been thinking about is dealing with random battles. It seems to me that even if it saves ingame time, saving and resetting constantly to get an easy escape from every battle would cut down the run's entertainment value by a lot. It's pretty much necessary to survive Early Gondowan before Piers joins due to the low levels, but otherwise, I'm planning on trying to find a way around it. The beginning of the game, up to the King Scorpion battle, enemies are weak enough to deal with quickly, and after the Reunion, Isaac's team can kill things in an instant, but for the large portion of the game between those points, I feel like there has to be a better way of dealing with things.

Even with segments, a 35% chance isn't much over the course of such a long battle. I'll go for the armor and shield and give it a shot. I could go for Hyper Boots also, but I'm not sure they're worth it here.

My original plan involved summons at the beginning for the power boosts, since the first phase is so weak that I could recover easily. This should further increase Megiddo's damage. If I can get to the third phase mostly on Megiddo, I can keep the summons ready to let loose a full summon rush at the third phase; if a full summon rush gets through from both teams, it should be enough for a fast kill against the otherwise toughest and longest form.

My original plan was to set up for that, but I couldn't keep it in place because I needed to keep using the summons I was preparing in order to quickly kill the first and second forms. This should solve that.

On an unrelated note, how exactly does Weaken work? The Hard Mode Serpent kill uses it to do enough damage with the summons, but I don't know of any precise information on its accuracy or duration. According to the Hard Mode video, Weaken didn't have the best likelihood of working and only lasted until the end of the next turn. I've seen it last longer against random enemies with much lower Luck, but against the Doom Dragon, I couldn't get it to work at all with several attempts. The Doom Dragon has 50 Luck, just 4 more than the Serpent's 46, so if it never works on the Doom Dragon, the odds don't seem great for the Serpent. If it's feasible to hit it with Weaken once or twice, it could make the Djinn work throughout the battle much easier, but that's only if it's feasible.

An unrelated thing I've been thinking about is dealing with random battles. It seems to me that even if it saves ingame time, saving and resetting constantly to get an easy escape from every battle would cut down the run's entertainment value by a lot. It's pretty much necessary to survive Early Gondowan before Piers joins due to the low levels, but otherwise, I'm planning on trying to find a way around it. The beginning of the game, up to the King Scorpion battle, enemies are weak enough to deal with quickly, and after the Reunion, Isaac's team can kill things in an instant, but for the large portion of the game between those points, I feel like there has to be a better way of dealing with things.

FlamingMage

2012-02-25 03:03:01 pm

You should be able to beat most of the game without doing any random battles, but those that you do you should try to se Djinn and get the flash deaths Smiley

Extra exp.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-25 06:05:20 pm

2012-02-25 03:47:06 pm

Yeah, but unless I follow up with a summon, that requires spending time in the menus putting them back. Although I suppose summons are feasible enough.

Edit: Doom Dragon strategy worked, and I don't think it took that long. Like with other battles, I'm going to assume that at lower levels, these preparations will be enough with room for more resets, so I'll just make sure to get the Aegis Shield and Valkyrie Mail on future runs.

TheOthin

Edit history:

TheOthin: 2012-02-28 02:10:57 pm

TheOthin: 2012-02-28 02:09:52 pm

2012-02-28 02:06:49 pm

Went back to the test run (the real test run; aiming for <7:00 for now), haven't gotten far yet. I'm currently going through Gondowan Statue; I'm trying to cut my saves in half by, after a hard reset, getting a free escape from one battle, but then getting into another battle I can win quickly. Regardless of anything else, higher levels mean faster boss fights and less random fights. Although Avoid also helps with the latter.

Japanese copy arrived. Playing through just the first bit, the text seems slower normally, but maybe that's just because I'm used to having it set on fast. On that note, is there a way to set it to fast before you start a file, rather than having to sit through the first conversation on medium and then spend a few seconds of game time correcting it?

However, setting the text speed to fast, it goes much faster - not just because of the lower number of characters, but it seems to load all the characters immediately, which doesn't seem to work on the English version. I'm going to keep poking around to see if I can find any more differences, like maybe additional places where glitches will work. For example, if I can get a Retreat warp in Tundaria Tower from the first three rooms to just about anywhere else in the dungeon, it'll be possible to skip Aqua Rock completely. Unfortunately, that will mean missing out on Steam, which will surely cause problems later.

Went back to the test run (the real test run; aiming for <7:00 for now), haven't gotten far yet. I'm currently going through Gondowan Statue; I'm trying to cut my saves in half by, after a hard reset, getting a free escape from one battle, but then getting into another battle I can win quickly. Regardless of anything else, higher levels mean faster boss fights and less random fights. Although Avoid also helps with the latter.

Japanese copy arrived. Playing through just the first bit, the text seems slower normally, but maybe that's just because I'm used to having it set on fast. On that note, is there a way to set it to fast before you start a file, rather than having to sit through the first conversation on medium and then spend a few seconds of game time correcting it?

However, setting the text speed to fast, it goes [i]much[/i] faster - not just because of the lower number of characters, but it seems to load all the characters immediately, which doesn't seem to work on the English version. I'm going to keep poking around to see if I can find any more differences, like maybe additional places where glitches will work. For example, if I can get a Retreat warp in Tundaria Tower from the first three rooms to just about anywhere else in the dungeon, it'll be possible to skip Aqua Rock completely. Unfortunately, that will mean missing out on Steam, which will surely cause problems later.