Final Fantasy IV: The After Years

slowbro

2009-11-22 06:57:08 pm

Congrats, messenger!

(regarding your 0:28 Edge SS ... sorry bout the page break)

thri11ki11

2009-11-24 04:27:00 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

I'm happy to say that I got Edge's Tale, segmented, down to 0:26, and only the magic 10 seconds away from 0:25. I played around with saving in different places and manipulating battles differently in order to do it. I've recorded only to the Path to the Tower of Babil, and tested the rest to see what kind of results I would get. I used to take one segment from the time that you get Edge until the end of the game, but I split it into three segments this time. There's one fight with three Blood Bats that takes up almost a minute; I really wish I knew what to do with it, but it's the price that I have to pay to get rid of a lot of other encounters. Oh well.

When I get it put together I'll give the youtube links.

thri11ki11

2009-11-25 10:58:54 am

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Edge 7 segment 0:26 -

- Segments 1, 2, and 3A
- Segments 3B, 4, 5, and 6
- Segment 7

There's an error in segment 3B that costs me about .5 seconds when I run into the side of the ocean (on the overworld screen, nonetheless).
An error in segment 5 costs me about .25 seconds, just ran into a wall in the cave and paused a bit.
An error in segment 6 is attacking a Blood Bat while running away, which I initially thought was faster than taking a Bloodfeast but it's actually .5 seconds longer.

In segment 6, right before and after the Flamedog fight, there's a bit of monkeying around. That's important in order to set the random numbers for the Flamedog fight and the random monster generator, minimizing encounters and causing the second Flamedog to miss its attack (the only thing that keeps me alive).

This thing is like 10-12 seconds away from 0:25. If anyone has any idea on how to cut that time, please let me know where I made other mistakes. I know I could probably cut up to 4 or 5 seconds if I kept grinding the segments and got faster text scrolls or combat actions, but I don't think it's possible to get the other 5-7 seconds that way.

Edge 7 segment 0:26 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52GOFRZOp64 - Segments 1, 2, and 3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsV_mWytmz4 - Segments 3B, 4, 5, and 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly5um_ouvzs - Segment 7

There's an error in segment 3B that costs me about .5 seconds when I run into the side of the ocean (on the overworld screen, nonetheless).
An error in segment 5 costs me about .25 seconds, just ran into a wall in the cave and paused a bit.
An error in segment 6 is attacking a Blood Bat while running away, which I initially thought was faster than taking a Bloodfeast but it's actually .5 seconds longer.

In segment 6, right before and after the Flamedog fight, there's a bit of monkeying around. That's important in order to set the random numbers for the Flamedog fight and the random monster generator, minimizing encounters and causing the second Flamedog to miss its attack (the only thing that keeps me alive).

This thing is like 10-12 seconds away from 0:25. If anyone has any idea on how to cut that time, please let me know where I made other mistakes. I know I could probably cut up to 4 or 5 seconds if I kept grinding the segments and got faster text scrolls or combat actions, but I don't think it's possible to get the other 5-7 seconds that way.

messenger

2009-11-25 05:29:01 pm

you can cut like 5 seconds off by waiting to attack the belphejors until they attack you. then it will only take twos turns to kill each.

messenger

2009-11-25 05:34:52 pm

just had another idea. You might be able to trigger the mysterious girl to summon ifrit in one turn by throwing a battle axe. I think it is damage based when the event occurs. There is another cross shuriken right after the battle axe I think and you could use 2 cross shurikens to kill the ice beasts.

thri11ki11

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2009-11-26 04:46:17 am

2009-11-26 02:55:44 am

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

messenger, you are absolutely awesome. I'll try those right away.

*edit*
Ugh - or maybe not.
I started working on Porom's Tale again last night and I accidentally rewrote my saves. I didn't realize it until this morning; I thought I had left the one in the cave to Babil, but since it's gone I have to go through the entire thing all over again. The good thing about it is that I'll be forced to do better than or equal to the segments that I just did, so if I can take even a half second off each of the earlier segments it will make a big difference when I try your new tactics.

I think I'm going to take a break and finish Porom's Tale, then I'll probably get back to it. I don't think Porom will take too long as success in that is just a matter of perfecting the Cooler Mammoth fight and retrying segments until there are no missed steps and no running into walls. Oh yeah, and the last segments with the boss fights; which are pretty easy with Kain anyway, so I guess those don't count.

slowbro

2009-11-26 05:04:57 pm

Heh heh, I was just going to ask you a random question - "Now that you are making big improvements on many of the chapters do you think you could finish Porom's in less than 28 minutes" - but I see you're well on your way to doing just that!

I am curious to know if you have worked a really rare item drop into any of your runs. I'm not saying that I know any place specifically where it would help ... (I don't).

thri11ki11

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2009-11-26 05:54:43 pm

2009-11-26 05:10:15 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Well, here's my bittersweet Porom 0:27.

Segments 1-5:
Segments 6-12:
Segments 13-14:

The reason I'm doing all of these again is because I've been watching the runs that I originally submitted and, quite frankly, they suck. Bad. Lots of little ugly things, totally not professional looking at all. If I were a verifier I would have rejected them based on my current abilities and what I know now. I can't believe at one point I thought they were good enough.

I've resubmitted every single run except for Edge, Edward and Lunarians, the first is on youtube and the second is in the works. I'm thinking of submitting the 0:26 Edge run even though I think it possible to make 0:25, if for no other reason than to get rid of that awful looking 0:27 that I submitted before. What do you guys think? Is it good enough to go, or should I hold off?

*edit* to slowbro: Right off the top of my head, the "rarest" item drop I ever worked into a run was a Vampire Fang that I got to drop consistently in Kain's Tale. It was useful during the Kain fight because I could deal him approximately 800 damage and heal myself at the same time. The current run, however, doesn't have this drop included because I found a better encounter pattern that didn't include it.

I also found a way to get a Silver Armlet to drop from the three Mini Yellows at the top of the Tower of Trials in Palom's quest, but once again, I found a faster/more favourable fight pattern that leaves it out in the run.

Well, here's my bittersweet Porom 0:27.

Segments 1-5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPll4lDafk
Segments 6-12: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE1v2Na_GMA
Segments 13-14: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwTyPNX3Iyo

The reason I'm doing all of these again is because I've been watching the runs that I originally submitted and, quite frankly, they suck. Bad. Lots of little ugly things, totally not professional looking at all. If I were a verifier I would have rejected them based on my current abilities and what I know now. I can't believe at one point I thought they were good enough.

I've resubmitted every single run except for Edge, Edward and Lunarians, the first is on youtube and the second is in the works. I'm thinking of submitting the 0:26 Edge run even though I think it possible to make 0:25, if for no other reason than to get rid of that awful looking 0:27 that I submitted before. What do you guys think? Is it good enough to go, or should I hold off?

*edit* to slowbro: Right off the top of my head, the "rarest" item drop I ever worked into a run was a Vampire Fang that I got to drop consistently in Kain's Tale. It was useful during the Kain fight because I could deal him approximately 800 damage and heal myself at the same time. The current run, however, doesn't have this drop included because I found a better encounter pattern that didn't include it.

I also found a way to get a Silver Armlet to drop from the three Mini Yellows at the top of the Tower of Trials in Palom's quest, but once again, I found a faster/more favourable fight pattern that leaves it out in the run.

messenger

2009-11-26 06:32:57 pm

You should definitely submit. I know what it is like to be your own best critic. Regardless, if the verifiers think its good enough, then it is good enough. Now if someone wants to come in and beat it, let them, that is the point of this site, right?

thri11ki11

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2009-11-28 01:17:17 pm

2009-11-27 08:39:34 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Thanks for the vote of confidence, messenger. I submitted it.

As for my Edward run, I've found so many ways to cut some major time. I skipped buying and using the Tents to make it a Full Moon, which would have decreased enemy damage (it was a great idea, I think slowbro came up with it). It takes up like 30 seconds, buying the Tents and actually using them. I decided I would go on my ability to manipulate out the combat in order to make it through the caves. It will be extremely difficult when I've got Edward all alone, but there are a couple of Potions I can use. I may have to go back to that strategy if I can't figure out how to get him through alive, though.

I'm planning 18 segments for it, where initially I had only 7. I'm just finished the 5th segment and I've already cut 1'08" off. My goal was to go from 0:29 to 0:27, but depending on how the next few segments go, 0:26 might even be a possibility. Keeping my fingers crossed. Wink

**edit**
What a mess.
In my haste to save time, I forgot that the moon needs to be full to get the Sand Ruby. Now I'm in a quandry. The hardest part of the run is the Impact Crater because the encounter rate is almost completely random and about 3x normal. I managed to get through with only 7 battles total -- in and out -- which took hundreds of retries. There's only one Cottage between there and the Sand Ruby, so the only options for me now are

a) go a little out of my way and buy 2 Tents in Kaipo, or
b) start the whole damn thing over again.

Considering the fact that I've already saved 2+ minutes over my last time, I think I'm going with option a). It'll take less than 10 seconds to get the Tents. I want to get the run submitted and get rid of that filthy old submission. Then my plan is to tackle either Edge again or the Crystals, and then I will probably go for Edward's Tale again if I'm within 10 seconds of shaving another minute.

Crap crap crap crap. Crap. Shoulda listened to slowbro. Cry

**edit edit**
I ended up going with option b). I got through the crater with 8 battles this time, but it was actually faster! ...because one of the original ones was a back attack, I think. I've figured out how to get between Damcyan and Kaipo (and back) without running into a single encounter. I'm currently finished with my 9th segment, which was dropping Harley off in Kaipo, and the time is 13:19.432.

**edit edit edit**
I finished the run and the final time was 25:16.081.

I had fabulous luck getting into the center of the crater, getting the best encounter rate I believe possible (only 3 fights). The time on that, excluding all dialogue, was 54.588.

Getting out of the crater, my luck wasn't as good (5 fights). The time on that, excluding dialogue, was 1:14.675.

Assuming the crater's encounter % doesn't change before and after you pick up Harley... well that's 20 seconds right there.

So 0:24 on Edward's Tale is possible.

Damn, I'm gonna have to do it again.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, messenger. I submitted it.

As for my Edward run, I've found so many ways to cut some major time. I skipped buying and using the Tents to make it a Full Moon, which would have decreased enemy damage (it was a great idea, I think slowbro came up with it). It takes up like 30 seconds, buying the Tents and actually using them. I decided I would go on my ability to manipulate out the combat in order to make it through the caves. It will be extremely difficult when I've got Edward all alone, but there are a couple of Potions I can use. I may have to go back to that strategy if I can't figure out how to get him through alive, though.

I'm planning 18 segments for it, where initially I had only 7. I'm just finished the 5th segment and I've already cut 1'08" off. My goal was to go from 0:29 to 0:27, but depending on how the next few segments go, 0:26 might even be a possibility. Keeping my fingers crossed.  ;)

**edit**
What a mess.
In my haste to save time, I forgot that the moon needs to be full to get the Sand Ruby. Now I'm in a quandry. The hardest part of the run is the Impact Crater because the encounter rate is almost completely random and about 3x normal. I managed to get through with only 7 battles total -- in and out -- which took hundreds of retries. There's only one Cottage between there and the Sand Ruby, so the only options for me now are

a) go a little out of my way and buy 2 Tents in Kaipo, or
b) start the whole damn thing over again.

Considering the fact that I've already saved 2+ minutes over my last time, I think I'm going with option a). It'll take less than 10 seconds to get the Tents. I want to get the run submitted and get rid of that filthy old submission. Then my plan is to tackle either Edge again or the Crystals, and then I will probably go for Edward's Tale again if I'm within 10 seconds of shaving another minute.

Crap crap crap crap. Crap. Shoulda listened to slowbro.  :'(

**edit edit**
I ended up going with option b). I got through the crater with 8 battles this time, but it was actually faster! ...because one of the original ones was a back attack, I think. I've figured out how to get between Damcyan and Kaipo (and back) without running into a single encounter. I'm currently finished with my 9th segment, which was dropping Harley off in Kaipo, and the time is 13:19.432.

**edit edit edit**
I finished the run and the final time was 25:16.081.

I had fabulous luck getting into the center of the crater, getting the best encounter rate I believe possible (only 3 fights). The time on that, excluding all dialogue, was 54.588.

Getting out of the crater, my luck wasn't as good (5 fights). The time on that, excluding dialogue, was 1:14.675.

Assuming the crater's encounter % doesn't change before and after you pick up Harley... well that's 20 seconds right there.

So 0:24 on Edward's Tale is possible.

Damn, I'm gonna have to do it again.

thri11ki11

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2009-11-29 03:55:14 am

2009-11-28 05:06:54 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Okay, so maybe I can't make the 16 seconds.
I found out what the problem is. Before you pick up Harley, your character's speeds are 11, 10, 8 and 8, which averages to 37/4 or 9.25.
When you pick up Harley, her speed is 7, which averages them to 44/5 or 8.8.
Apparently, the game truncates the decimal to determine what the party speed is, so you lose a point when you pick up Harley. This results in slower run times. Specifically in the crater, the enemies almost always get to attack before you flee, whereas before picking up Harley it was about a 50% chance that ONE of them would attack or something. So you take two or three Fire spells (3 seconds or so) from the Spirits/Souls, you take both Gargoyle hits, both Cockatrice hits, and at least 2 out of 3 Skeleton hits (about 1.5-2 seconds each). The only thing you can cleanly run from are the Sand Worm and Hundlegs fights, but those don't occur in the lowest part of the core.

My final analysis: the only way that one could get 0:25 on this tale would be to get out of the central core without running into a fight, and then ONLY run into Sand Worm and Hundlegs fights all the way to the surface, and ONLY run into 3 or fewer of them. The chances of that happening are quite astronomical. It seems as though the Crater in Edward's tale was the only place where they got the random number generator working the way it was supposed to. *sigh*

I'm just going to submit my 0:25. I'll post the youtube links shortly.

Okay, so maybe I can't make the 16 seconds.
I found out what the problem is. Before you pick up Harley, your character's speeds are 11, 10, 8 and 8, which averages to 37/4 or 9.25.
When you pick up Harley, her speed is 7, which averages them to 44/5 or 8.8.
Apparently, the game truncates the decimal to determine what the party speed is, so you lose a point when you pick up Harley. This results in slower run times. Specifically in the crater, the enemies almost always get to attack before you flee, whereas before picking up Harley it was about a 50% chance that ONE of them would attack or something. So you take two or three Fire spells (3 seconds or so) from the Spirits/Souls, you take both Gargoyle hits, both Cockatrice hits, and at least 2 out of 3 Skeleton hits (about 1.5-2 seconds each). The only thing you can cleanly run from are the Sand Worm and Hundlegs fights, but those don't occur in the lowest part of the core.

My final analysis: the only way that one could get 0:25 on this tale would be to get out of the central core without running into a fight, and then ONLY run into Sand Worm and Hundlegs fights all the way to the surface, and ONLY run into 3 or fewer of them. The chances of that happening are quite astronomical.  It seems as though the Crater in Edward's tale was the only place where they got the random number generator working the way it was supposed to.  *sigh*

I'm just going to submit my 0:25. I'll post the youtube links shortly.

thri11ki11

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2009-11-29 05:10:50 am

2009-11-29 04:06:31 am

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Edward 0:25

Segments 1-6:
Segments 7-16:
Segment 17:

Now working on the Lunarian's Tale!

thri11ki11

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2009-12-01 09:06:14 am

2009-11-30 03:16:05 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Finished the Lunarians' Tale today, with a time of 0:34. It was about 15 seconds from 0:33, but I don't know how I could cut that much time anywhere, so I'm going to submit it. I had a tremendous amount of luck getting all of the fights to go so smoothly, and I doubt I could do much better with grinding them out, let alone 15 seconds.

I'm running out of places to put videos. I'm trying to make due with three parts, but they're just not going to allow all of the run to be posted.

Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:

thri11ki11

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2009-12-10 03:00:19 am

2009-12-01 06:11:28 am

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

So now it comes down to The Crystals.

I ran this without importing anything and ended up with a run that I wasn't happy with (and summarily scrapped). I decided to go a different route and import chapters instead. My idea is to max out each chapter so that when I import I can get the best possible time on The Crystals. Then I may run it again without imports.

Here's my progress thus far. Things in bold italics are new since last update (yesterday).

CEODORE/KAIN'S TALE (MAXED OUT)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

|

Name

|

HP

|

Right Hand

|

Left Hand

|

Head

|

Body

|

Gloves

|

--------

|

-----

|

---------------

|

---------------

|

--------------

|

---------------

|

---------------

|

Ceodore

|

9999

|

Obelisk

|

Diamond Shield

|

Diamond Helm

|

Diamond Armor

|

Giant's Gloves

|

Kain

|

9999

|

Diamond Shield

|

Dragoon Spear

|

Diamond Helm

|

Diamond Armor

|

Giant's Gloves

|

Rosa

|

7411

|

Angel's Arrows

|

Elfin Bow

|

Gold Hairpin

|

Luminous Robe

|

Diamond Armlet

|

Cid

|

3185

|

Sledgehammer

|

Diamond Helm

|

Diamond Armor

|

Giant's Gloves

|

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Silver Apple farming is not allowed after Rosa and Cid become members of the party. Cid is too slow and will probably never be used, though I did get an extra Sledgehammer for Luca to use when I import saves.

RYDIA'S TALE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

|

Name

|

HP

|

Right Hand

|

Left Hand

|

Head

|

Body

|

Gloves

|

--------

|

-----

|

---------------

|

---------------

|

--------------

|

----------------

|

---------------

|

Luca

|

9999

|

Tomahawk

|

Iron Shield

|

Horned Helmet

|

Horned Armor

|

Iron Gloves

|

Rydia

|

9999

|

Whip

|

Wizard's Hat

|

Mage's Robe

|

Silver Armlet

|

Calca

|

9999

|

Dancing Dagger

|

Wizard's Hat

|

Warrior's Clothes

|

Silver Armlet

|

Brina

|

9999

|

Dancing Dagger

|

Wizard's Hat

|

Angel's Clothes

|

Silver Armlet

|

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm considering Silver Apple farming here instead of in Yang's Tale because if I keep farming Megalixers and Adamantite in the Lunarians' Tale it will put me at about the point I need to be to collect the 3 Silver Apples in this chapter. If I decide that the amount of those items that I have is sufficient, then I'll use Yang's Tale.

YANG'S TALE (MAXED OUT)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

|

Name

|

HP

|

Right Hand

|

Left Hand

|

Head

|

Body

|

Gloves

|

--------

|

-----

|

---------------

|

---------------

|

-----------------

|

-----------------

|

---------------

|

Ursula

|

9999

|

Cat Claws

|

Cat Claws

|

Black Cowl

|

Rose Twine Dress

|

Giant's Gloves

|

Yang

|

9999

|

Cat Claws

|

Cat Claws

|

Chakra Headband

|

Black Belt Gi

|

Hyper Wrist

|

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PALOM'S TALE (MAXED OUT)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

|

Name

|

HP

|

Right Hand

|

Left Hand

|

Head

|

Body

|

Gloves

|

--------

|

-----

|

---------------

|

---------------

|

-----------------

|

-----------------

|

---------------

|

Leonora

|

9999

|

Protect Staff

|

Mystic Veil

|

Sage's Surplice

|

Rune Armlet

|

Palom

|

9999

|

Wizard's Rod

|

Circlet

|

Red Robe

|

Talisman

|

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDGE'S TALE (MAXED OUT)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

|

Name

|

HP

|

Right Hand

|

Left Hand

|

Head

|

Body

|

Gloves

|

--------

|

-----

|

---------------

|

---------------

|

--------------

|

-----------------

|

----------------

|

Gekkou

|

9999

|

Gaia Hammer

|

Headband

|

Silver Breastplate

|

Treasure Hunter

|

Izayoi

|

9999

|

Ice Arrows

|

Killer Bow

|

Goblin Mask

|

Kenpo Gi

|

Silver Armlet

|

Edge

|

9999

|

Kotetsu

|

Ashura

|

Black Cowl

|

Black Belt Gi

|

Power Armlet

|

Tsukinowa

|

9999

|

Wing Edge

|

Crimson Cherry

|

Green Beret

|

Mist Wrap

|

Silver Armlet

|

Zangetsu

|

9999

|

Flame Lance

|

Green Beret

|

Kenpo Gi

|

Mythril Gloves

|

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

POROM'S TALE (MAXED OUT)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

|

Name

|

HP

|

Right Hand

|

Left Hand

|

Head

|

Body

|

Gloves

|

--------

|

-----

|

---------------

|

---------------

|

-----------------

|

-----------------

|

---------------

|

Porom

|

9999

|

Ice Arrows

|

Killer Bow

|

Mystic Veil

|

Luminous Robe

|

Rune Armlet

|

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got an extra Silver Apple from the challenge dungeon, which will go towards my 99 apple requirement for Cecil.

EDWARD'S TALE (MAXED OUT)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

|

Name

|

HP

|

Right Hand

|

Left Hand

|

Head

|

Body

|

Gloves

|

--------

|

-----

|

---------------

|

---------------

|

-----------------

|

-----------------

|

---------------

|

Edward

|

9999

|

Muse Harp

|

Circular Hat

|

Exorcist's Gown

|

Cursed Ring

|

Harley

|

9999

|

Ice Whip

|

Beret

|

Professor's Robe

|

Gil Band

|

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one is a pain simply because you have to have lots of Gil to get the apples to drop using Gil Toss, so I have to fight an extra battle or two after each drop to replenish my Gil supply.

LUNARIANS' TALE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

|

Name

|

HP

|

Right Hand

|

Left Hand

|

Head

|

Body

|

Gloves

|

--------

|

-----

|

---------------

|

---------------

|

-----------------

|

-----------------

|

---------------

|

Golbez

|

2971

|

Aegis Shield

|

Defender

|

Diamond Helm

|

Diamond Armor

|

Giant's Gloves

|

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So far I've gotten 31 Megalixirs, 38 Adamantites, and 18 Silver Apples.

I've also saved all of my speedruns to import. What do you guys think of a low-level Crystals run, importing all of the sub 0:40 finished tales? I could add up all of the tales times and once I get The Crystals finished time it will be like a whole game time or something. Wink

Let me know what your opinions are.

So now it comes down to The Crystals.

I ran this without importing anything and ended up with a run that I wasn't happy with (and summarily scrapped). I decided to go a different route and import chapters instead. My idea is to max out each chapter so that when I import I can get the best possible time on The Crystals. Then I may run it again without imports.

Here's my progress thus far. Things in bold italics are new since last update (yesterday).

CEODORE/KAIN'S TALE (MAXED OUT)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[table]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td][b]Name[/b][/td][td]|[/td][td][b]HP[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Right Hand[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Left Hand [/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Head[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Body[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Gloves[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]--------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]--------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Ceodore[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]9999[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Obelisk[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Shield[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Helm[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Armor[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Giant's Gloves[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Kain[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]9999[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Shield[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Dragoon Spear[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Helm[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Armor[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Giant's Gloves[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Rosa[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]7411[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Angel's Arrows[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Elfin Bow[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Gold Hairpin[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Luminous Robe[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Armlet[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Cid[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]3185[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Sledgehammer[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td] [/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Helm[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Armor[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Giant's Gloves[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Silver Apple farming is not allowed after Rosa and Cid become members of the party. Cid is too slow and will probably never be used, though I did get an extra Sledgehammer for Luca to use when I import saves.

RYDIA'S TALE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[table]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td][b]Name[/b][/td][td]|[/td][td][b]HP[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Right Hand[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Left Hand [/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Head[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Body[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Gloves[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]--------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]--------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]----------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Luca[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]9999[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Tomahawk[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Iron Shield[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Horned Helmet[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Horned Armor[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Iron Gloves[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Rydia[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]9999[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Whip[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td] [/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Wizard's Hat[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Mage's Robe[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Silver Armlet[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Calca[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]9999[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Dancing Dagger[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td] [/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Wizard's Hat[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Warrior's Clothes[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Silver Armlet[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Brina[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]9999[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Dancing Dagger[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td] [/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Wizard's Hat[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Angel's Clothes[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Silver Armlet[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm considering Silver Apple farming here instead of in Yang's Tale because if I keep farming Megalixers and Adamantite in the Lunarians' Tale it will put me at about the point I need to be to collect the 3 Silver Apples in this chapter. If I decide that the amount of those items that I have is sufficient, then I'll use Yang's Tale.

POROM'S TALE (MAXED OUT)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[table]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td][b]Name[/b][/td][td]|[/td][td][b]HP[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Right Hand[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Left Hand [/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Head[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Body[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Gloves[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]--------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Porom[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]9999[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Ice Arrows[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Killer Bow[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Mystic Veil[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Luminous Robe[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Rune Armlet[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got an extra Silver Apple from the challenge dungeon, which will go towards my 99 apple requirement for Cecil.

EDWARD'S TALE (MAXED OUT)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[table]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td][b]Name[/b][/td][td]|[/td][td][b]HP[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Right Hand[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Left Hand [/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Head[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Body[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Gloves[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]--------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Edward[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]9999[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Muse Harp[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td] [/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Circular Hat[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Exorcist's Gown[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Cursed Ring[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Harley[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b][i]9999[/i][/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Ice Whip[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td] [/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Beret[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Professor's Robe[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Gil Band[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one is a pain simply because you have to have lots of Gil to get the apples to drop using Gil Toss, so I have to fight an extra battle or two after each drop to replenish my Gil supply.

LUNARIANS' TALE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[table]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td][b]Name[/b][/td][td]|[/td][td][b]HP[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Right Hand[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Left Hand [/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Head[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Body[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
          [td][b]Gloves[/b][/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]--------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]-----------------[/td][td]|[/td][td]---------------[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]|[/td][td]Golbez[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]2971[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Aegis Shield[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Defender[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Helm[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Diamond Armor[/td][td]|[/td]
          [td]Giant's Gloves[/td][td]|[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So far I've gotten [b][i]31 Megalixirs[/i][/b], [b][i]38 Adamantites[/i][/b], and [b][i]18 Silver Apples[/i][/b].

I've also saved all of my speedruns to import. What do you guys think of a low-level Crystals run, importing all of the sub 0:40 finished tales? I could add up all of the tales times and once I get The Crystals finished time it will be like a whole game time or something. ;) Let me know what your opinions are.

slowbro

Edit history:

slowbro: 2009-12-07 12:19:28 pm

2009-12-07 11:51:47 am

@ Edward - Ouch! That was a noble and gutsy attempt to go without changing the moon phase, but then the Sand Ruby thing bit you in the ass.

Holy carp you've made a lot of progress! Smiley

In a game like this, I personally don't think there'd be anything shameful at all if you did have runs up on SDA that were two minutes slower than optimal, but that's just my personal mindset (probably part of why I'm not a great speedrunner lol). Heck, I'm still mildly proud of my main story 1:35 run, though I would have never considered submitting that to SDA.

But it sounds like you're getting these chapters damn near their fastest possible times, barring discovery of some crazy glitch. Big thumbs up! And I see you're continuing your trend of using more segments than your early attempts, which is a good idea imo considering how much time you're cutting off.

I would guess that you are the world's foremost expert now at manipulating this game Smiley

Back when I spent a lot of time at this game's GameFAQs forum, I remember that everybody wanted RNG-manipulation methods for collecting all the rarest items ... This is totally not speedrun-related, but compared to what you're doing while speedrunning, I bet figuring out how to get all those rare items would be cake.

Wow, I didn't guess you would choose the New Game + route for The Crystals. Just me personally, a really fast NG+ run of The Crystals would impress me far less than a NG run that takes twice as long, and I'd love it if sometime you submitted a NG run too (if you're not totally sick of running this game by then), but in any case good luck with the NG+ run, and I know you'll make an impressive one!

I'm thinking that, somehow, it might actually help to not totally max out everything possible in the previous chapters. Like, for example, navigating menus might be faster if you had less characters or less kinds of items. I don't know whether the Adamant gear would be worth the time necessary in The Crystals to obtain it or not (but it probably would be). Find out if changes in a character's spell list order carry over to the final chapter Smiley

edit: It is possible there may be extra dialogue in The Crystals, in the ending for example, if Edge's subordinates are alive. You may want to solo Edge's chapter for the data to import into a NG+ The Crystals run. There could even be chapters that you shouldn't import at all, because of dialogue or whatever, but I don't know.

edit:

Quote:

I've also saved all of my speedruns to import. What do you guys think of a low-level Crystals run, importing all of the sub 0:40 finished tales? I could add up all of the tales times and once I get The Crystals finished time it will be like a whole game time or something. Let me know what your opinions are.

That's the run I really wanted to see right from the start Cheesy

a full-game run through all the chapters. But Lord_VG and I had a difference of opinion on that, way back on the first page of this thread. Lord_VG believes that the only viable way to run this for SDA is to do single-chapter runs. So it is still up in the air whether SDA would allow such a run.

Probably not, but it is possible that maybe you'd want to do some extra grinding in the other chapters, and/or even visit a challenge dungeon or two before importing. That time would (obviously) count toward the final time. That may or may not be allowed for SDA purposes, I don't know.

@ Edward - Ouch!  That was a noble and gutsy attempt to go without changing the moon phase, but then the Sand Ruby thing bit you in the ass.

Holy carp you've made a lot of progress! :)

In a game like this, I personally don't think there'd be anything shameful at all if you did have runs up on SDA that were two minutes slower than optimal, but that's just my personal mindset (probably part of why I'm not a great speedrunner lol).  Heck, I'm still mildly proud of my main story 1:35 run, though I would have never considered submitting [i]that[/i] to SDA.

But it sounds like you're getting these chapters damn near their fastest possible times, barring discovery of some crazy glitch.  Big thumbs up!  And I see you're continuing your trend of using more segments than your early attempts, which is a good idea imo considering how much time you're cutting off.

I would guess that you are the world's foremost expert now at manipulating this game :)  Back when I spent a lot of time at this game's GameFAQs forum, I remember that everybody wanted RNG-manipulation methods for collecting all the rarest items ... This is totally not speedrun-related, but compared to what you're doing while speedrunning, I bet figuring out how to get all those rare items would be cake.

Wow, I didn't guess you would choose the New Game + route for The Crystals.  Just me personally, a really fast NG+ run of The Crystals would impress me far less than a NG run that takes twice as long, and I'd love it if sometime you submitted a NG run too (if you're not totally sick of running this game by then), but in any case good luck with the NG+ run, and I know you'll make an impressive one!

I'm thinking that, somehow, it might actually help to not totally max out everything possible in the previous chapters.  Like, for example, navigating menus might be faster if you had less characters or less kinds of items.  I don't know whether the Adamant gear would be worth the time necessary in The Crystals to obtain it or not (but it probably would be).  Find out if changes in a character's spell list order carry over to the final chapter :)  edit: It is possible there may be extra dialogue in The Crystals, in the ending for example, if Edge's subordinates are alive.  You may want to solo Edge's chapter for the data to import into a NG+ The Crystals run.  There could even be chapters that you shouldn't import at all, because of dialogue or whatever, but I don't know.

edit: [quote]I've also saved all of my speedruns to import. What do you guys think of a low-level Crystals run, importing all of the sub 0:40 finished tales? I could add up all of the tales times and once I get The Crystals finished time it will be like a whole game time or something.  Let me know what your opinions are.[/quote]
That's the run I really wanted to see right from the start :D a full-game run through all the chapters.  But Lord_VG and I had a difference of opinion on that, way back on the first page of this thread.  Lord_VG believes that the only viable way to run this for SDA is to do single-chapter runs.  So it is still up in the air whether SDA would allow such a run.

Probably not, but it is possible that maybe you'd want to do some extra grinding in the other chapters, and/or even visit a challenge dungeon or two before importing.  That time would (obviously) count toward the final time.  That may or may not be allowed for SDA purposes, I don't know.

thri11ki11

2009-12-07 12:50:48 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Quote from slowbro:

I would guess that you are the world's foremost expert now at manipulating this game Smiley

Nope. I'm good at manipulating encounters, but when it comes to drops I can't really figure it out without hours upon hours of trial and error, or disassembling the game itself. Manipulating encounters is based on steps, sometimes direction, whether you run or walk, etc. In combat, if you don't run away immediately it also changes the encounters to come. But for drops, there are specific ways that you have to kill specific enemies in a specific order for a specific drop. I haven't put any energy into figuring those out.

Quote from slowbro:

Wow, I didn't guess you would choose the New Game + route for The Crystals. Just me personally, a really fast NG+ run of The Crystals would impress me far less than a NG run that takes twice as long, and I'd love it if sometime you submitted a NG run too (if you're not totally sick of running this game by then), but in any case good luck with the NG+ run, and I know you'll make an impressive one!

Yeah, the NG+ thing was just my desire to get the fastest possible time up. I haven't even started running it at all, as you can see I'm still preparing. I fully intend to do a NG run. I started one, and it was going pretty well (I got to the depths in 2:00), but then I screwed up while I was leveling on Depths B5 and saved over some stuff that I shouldn't have, and I think I let myself get a little too discouraged. That's when I went back to redoing all of the tales, which I'm glad I did. Running The Crystals NG taught me a lot more and gave me more practice so that when I went back to the tales I was able to really grind out good times.

Quote from slowbro:

I'm thinking that, somehow, it might actually help to not totally max out everything possible in the previous chapters. Like, for example, navigating menus might be faster if you had less characters or less kinds of items.

This is something that I hadn't really thought much about, and it's concerning, but I don't think that it's going to cause too much of a problem. I intend to, before importing, sell off anything that I don't plan on using, or dropping it, or whatever.

Quote from slowbro:

I don't know whether the Adamant gear would be worth the time necessary in The Crystals to obtain it or not (but it probably would be).

I don't think the Adamant Gear takes too long to get, and it will allow a party of mostly strong attackers to take on bosses without healers (or minimal healing). Think Cecil, Edge, Tsukinowa, Ursula and Kain for example, all with 9999 HP, all with Adamant Armor for extra defense, with tons of Megalixers for backup. Or throw in Porom or Rosa in there to Berserk them *shrug* I'm going to have fun playing with the possibilities.

Quote from slowbro:

Find out if changes in a character's spell list order carry over to the final chapter Smiley

edit: It is possible there may be extra dialogue in The Crystals, in the ending for example, if Edge's subordinates are alive. You may want to solo Edge's chapter for the data to import into a NG+ The Crystals run. There could even be chapters that you shouldn't import at all, because of dialogue or whatever, but I don't know.

I think the spell lists will carry over; I will be doing a lot of manipulating of those. Plus, I think all extra dialogue comes on save spots in the Depths and so forth, and all of that can be skipped (unless you want the Band attacks, which I'll have to figure out are worth the extra time). I didn't solo Edge's chapter because I want at least Tsukinowa available to me because he's so damn fast.

[quote="slowbro"]
I would guess that you are the world's foremost expert now at manipulating this game :)
[/quote]
Nope. I'm good at manipulating encounters, but when it comes to drops I can't really figure it out without hours upon hours of trial and error, or disassembling the game itself. Manipulating encounters is based on steps, sometimes direction, whether you run or walk, etc. In combat, if you don't run away immediately it also changes the encounters to come. But for drops, there are specific ways that you have to kill specific enemies in a specific order for a specific drop. I haven't put any energy into figuring those out.

[quote="slowbro"]
Wow, I didn't guess you would choose the New Game + route for The Crystals.  Just me personally, a really fast NG+ run of The Crystals would impress me far less than a NG run that takes twice as long, and I'd love it if sometime you submitted a NG run too (if you're not totally sick of running this game by then), but in any case good luck with the NG+ run, and I know you'll make an impressive one!
[/quote]
Yeah, the NG+ thing was just my desire to get the fastest possible time up. I haven't even started running it at all, as you can see I'm still preparing. I fully intend to do a NG run. I started one, and it was going pretty well (I got to the depths in 2:00), but then I screwed up while I was leveling on Depths B5 and saved over some stuff that I shouldn't have, and I think I let myself get a little too discouraged. That's when I went back to redoing all of the tales, which I'm glad I did. Running The Crystals NG taught me a lot more and gave me more practice so that when I went back to the tales I was able to really grind out good times.

[quote="slowbro"]
I'm thinking that, somehow, it might actually help to not totally max out everything possible in the previous chapters.  Like, for example, navigating menus might be faster if you had less characters or less kinds of items.
[/quote]
This is something that I hadn't really thought much about, and it's concerning, but I don't think that it's going to cause too much of a problem. I intend to, before importing, sell off anything that I don't plan on using, or dropping it, or whatever.

[quote="slowbro"]
I don't know whether the Adamant gear would be worth the time necessary in The Crystals to obtain it or not (but it probably would be).
[/quote]
I don't think the Adamant Gear takes too long to get, and it will allow a party of mostly strong attackers to take on bosses without healers (or minimal healing). Think Cecil, Edge, Tsukinowa, Ursula and Kain for example, all with 9999 HP, all with Adamant Armor for extra defense, with tons of Megalixers for backup. Or throw in Porom or Rosa in there to Berserk them *shrug* I'm going to have fun playing with the possibilities.

[quote="slowbro"]
Find out if changes in a character's spell list order carry over to the final chapter :)  edit: It is possible there may be extra dialogue in The Crystals, in the ending for example, if Edge's subordinates are alive.  You may want to solo Edge's chapter for the data to import into a NG+ The Crystals run.  There could even be chapters that you shouldn't import at all, because of dialogue or whatever, but I don't know.
[/quote]
I think the spell lists will carry over; I will be doing a lot of manipulating of those. Plus, I think all extra dialogue comes on save spots in the Depths and so forth, and all of that can be skipped (unless you want the Band attacks, which I'll have to figure out are worth the extra time). I didn't solo Edge's chapter because I want at least Tsukinowa available to me because he's so damn fast.

AnotherGamer

2009-12-07 01:36:49 pm

Nice to see that this game's being run as well.

Has anyone considered whether the band Vibra Plus (cecil attack+ceodore attack) has any use in a speedrun after Cecil stops his plot-mandated uselessness yet, or has anyone even gotten anywhere near their point in any of their run attempts or planning? That thing can do pretty ridiculous amounts of damage for just a 2-character band when there's only 1 target, and it can be increased even further with Awaken. Then again, it all depends on if it can even do over 9999 with the usual speedrun levels and gear, and if it can, whether it's possible to get enough Small Tails to get a Limit Ring in the process of beating the first part of the final chapter without going too much out of your way.

thri11ki11

2009-12-07 02:17:13 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

In the runs that I've attempted, Bands don't seem to be that useful because most of the time you're at too low a level with only the bare essentials for gear. Having said that, I have yet to discover the balance between level grinding and pushing forward during the depths sequence. Even with some grinding I don't know if the Limit Ring would be useful. I guess that's why I'll be trying a lot of different tactics!

AnotherGamer

2009-12-07 02:56:51 pm

Well, I was mostly wondering about it since it's the only physical band that splits its damage randomly between targets, and getting high damage with physical attacks is generally easier to accomplish than with spells, mostly thanks to Awaken as stated and weapons being able to make up for stat deficiencies, and at the point you'd normally be able to use it, you'd generally have some moderately powerful gear available even without going too much out of your way to collect it. Would be nice to know the results if someone bothered to try it out.

thri11ki11

2009-12-07 03:10:53 pm

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

I'll definitely try it out. I never thought much to use Awaken as I'm not a huge fan of Ceodore, but at higher levels I can see how he may be an interesting choice, taking into account his speed. Thanks for the ideas, I'll incorporate them into my run testing and let you know how things turn out!

thri11ki11

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2009-12-11 07:57:16 am

2009-12-10 05:56:27 am

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

Okay, here goes.
I've maxed out all of the tales with the exception of Rydia's Tale because I'm collecting Silver Apples, and the Lunarian's Tale because I'm collecting Megalixirs. Aside from that, everything's pretty much prepared for the NG+ run. I figured what I would do is go through a list of the items that would be available for pooling into the final tale and ask you guys' opinion on which ones I should import and which ones I should drop. I'm going to do this piecemeal because I don't want to have one tremendously long post (even though this will still be a tremendously long post)l. I'm going to start with perishables, both in and out of battle items.

Potion (99) and Hi-Potion (99) - Sayonara. The only place I could even think that these would be useful (what with everyone with 9999 HP) is if I get attacked with something that reduces characters to < 10 HP, and the physical attack that the assailant uses does very small damage. I can't think of anything else for this.

X-Potion (18) - Restoring 2000 HP, I can see the use for them if the group is reduced to low HP and I have Edward in the party with the Economical Ring. However, I do have a good deal of Megalixirs, so I'm thinking that I'll throw these out.

Ether (99) - May be useful for between-battle restoration of MP, but I have Megalixirs and there are lots of panels to step on to restore power (or they are available quite frequently). I'm thinking of binning these.

Dry Ether (21) - Useful for in combat restoration of MP. I think I'll hold onto them so I don't have to waste a Megalixir.

Elixir (9) - I'll hold onto these in case one character gets whammo-ed.

Phoenix Down (99) - They're so often available in chests that are right on the way, and I have so many characters with Raise, that I'm thinking these will just take up space.

Gold Needle (99) - Hardly anything turns you to stone. Binned.

Maiden's Kiss (99) - Hardly anything turns you to frog. Trashed.

Mallet (13) - Hardly anything... you get the idea. Garbage.

Diet Ration (99) - See above. Toast.

Echo Herbs (99) - This may be marginally useful, but I'll have Unicorn Horns and Remedies if I need, so probably trash.

Eye Drops (99) - Poop.

Antidote (99) - More poop.

Cross (7) - Is there a boss in the final chapter that can Curse everyone all at once? That's the only time I think I would use this, and with Edward probably. Otherwise, bye bye.

Remedy (21) - You can buy these in the last part of the game. Should I hold onto these until then, or to save myself the time to buy them? I might have to buy them anyway. I'm thinking of keeping them. I COULD also go into Edward's Challenge Dungeon and max them out quite quickly. Opinions?

Megalixir (34) - An obvious must.

Silver Apple (60) - 39 more of these and I can boost Cecil's HP by 4950. Obviously a keeper.

Soma Drop (10) - Keeper. I don't know whose MP I will improve though. An obvious choice would be a spellcaster, but also those with useful Band attacks who have low MP. Any suggestions?

Lustful Lali-ho (4) - I probably won't trade these in for Discovery Books, so they're garbage.

Emergency Exit (93) - Hasta la vista.

Tent (99) - Useless. Bye.

Cottage (99) - Useful for changing the moon phase and restoring MP.

Bomb Fragment (25) - They do too little damage. Trash.

Bomb Crank (18) - These, like the Arctic Wind and the Heavenly Wrath, I think they have their place. Against a boss who is strong against physical attacks, or against the Magus Sisters where you have to hit characters who aren't in the front, these can do the extra damage. I can't remember if they're reflected though, so they may be useless against the Magus's. Plus, if I'm fighting a boss weak vs. magic only, I may use a cadre of spellcasters anyway. It's a tough decision on these. *edit* They can't be reflected.

Antarctic Wind (18) - Bye.

Arctic Wind (7) - See above. Questionable.

Zeus's Wrath (15) - Doo doo.

Heavenly Wrath (16) - See above. Questionable.

Stardust (1) - May come in useful. I'm not sure of where or how much damage it does, but maybe I should keep it to try it out.

Lilith's Kiss (7) - Instant Osmose. (Osmose has a shitty charge time). Maybe useful for those with good band attacks and fewer magic points, but only against certain monsters, and only if a Megalixir won't be used. I'm thinking of throwing them out.

Bacchus's Wine (16) - GREAT. A keeper. With 9999 HP all around, Edward can use these on everyone at once and... oh it's going to be so much fun to watch.

Hermes Sandals (24) - EXCELLENT. Haste on everyone all at once without the random nature of Bard's Song or Dance.

Bronze Hourglass (23) - May not work on harder enemies. It IS a Stop spell, though. I'm on the fence on this one.

Silver Hourglass (2) - Same as the Bronze Hourglass.

Gold Hourglass (2) - This one may be a keeper just because of its length. Is there a boss that Stop works on? I don't think there is.

Spider Silk (99) - A must have.

Decoy (9) - Especially with Edward, perfect for using against a monster attacker.

Red Fang (3) - Damage based on HP. HP = 9999. Big damage. Keep.

White Fang (5) - See Red Fang.

Blue Fang (5) - See Red Fang (or even White Fang).

Light Curtain (13) - Reflect on everyone with Edward. Barring the need to heal (and with 9999 HP, it's not likely in some circumstances), it may be good to hang onto them.

Bomb Core (5) - I don't know if this is 1 for 1 HP damage. I can test it, but does anyone else know how they work? *edit* This is 1 for 1 damage.

Silent Bell (1) - Silence? Probably pointless. Discard.

Gaia Drum (4) - Quake. I may be able to use these. Same deal as the Bomb Crank, though.

Coeurl Whisker (19) - No bosses are weak against Instant Death are they? I'm thinking of tossing them.

Bestiary (2) - I can't think of a more useless item.

Alarm Clock (2) - Except maybe this. Is there a boss that uses Sleep? Garbage.

Unicorn Horn (29) - Sleep, Paralyze, Confuse and Berserk? Remedy can take care of those. Throwing them out.

Shuriken (19) - Not enough damage. Bye.

Cross Shurkien (3) - Maybe useful early on when I only have Edge, Rydia, Golbez and Luca. Keeping them.

Adamantite (43) - Going to get me some good armor to go with my high HP.

Bouquet (2) - I can't get rid of them! What good ARE they? I thought Edward gave them to Cecil! WHY????

Proof of Courage (1) - It's stuck to my face and it won't come off.

Kokkol Ore (2) - Don't know if I can drop them but they're obviously as useful as a bag on my hip.

Silver Tail (3) - I don't think I'm messing with tails. Rubbish.

Bronze Tail (1) - See Silver Tail.

I know that's a long list, but any opinions would be sooooo welcome. I'll be checking back at some point with some weapons to get opinions on those.

Okay, here goes.
I've maxed out all of the tales with the exception of Rydia's Tale because I'm collecting Silver Apples, and the Lunarian's Tale because I'm collecting Megalixirs. Aside from that, everything's pretty much prepared for the NG+ run. I figured what I would do is go through a list of the items that would be available for pooling into the final tale and ask you guys' opinion on which ones I should import and which ones I should drop. I'm going to do this piecemeal because I don't want to have one tremendously long post (even though this will still be a tremendously long post)l. I'm going to start with perishables, both in and out of battle items.

Potion (99) and Hi-Potion (99) - Sayonara. The only place I could even think that these would be useful (what with everyone with 9999 HP) is if I get attacked with something that reduces characters to < 10 HP, and the physical attack that the assailant uses does very small damage. I can't think of anything else for this.

X-Potion (18) - Restoring 2000 HP, I can see the use for them if the group is reduced to low HP and I have Edward in the party with the Economical Ring. However, I do have a good deal of Megalixirs, so I'm thinking that I'll throw these out.

Ether (99) - May be useful for between-battle restoration of MP, but I have Megalixirs and there are lots of panels to step on to restore power (or they are available quite frequently). I'm thinking of binning these.

Dry Ether (21) - Useful for in combat restoration of MP. I think I'll hold onto them so I don't have to waste a Megalixir.

Elixir (9) - I'll hold onto these in case one character gets whammo-ed.

Phoenix Down (99) - They're so often available in chests that are right on the way, and I have so many characters with Raise, that I'm thinking these will just take up space.

Gold Needle (99) - Hardly anything turns you to stone. Binned.

Maiden's Kiss (99) - Hardly anything turns you to frog. Trashed.

Mallet (13) - Hardly anything... you get the idea. Garbage.

Diet Ration (99) - See above. Toast.

Echo Herbs (99) - This may be marginally useful, but I'll have Unicorn Horns and Remedies if I need, so probably trash.

Eye Drops (99) - Poop.

Antidote (99) - More poop.

Cross (7) - Is there a boss in the final chapter that can Curse everyone all at once? That's the only time I think I would use this, and with Edward probably. Otherwise, bye bye.

Remedy (21) - You can buy these in the last part of the game. Should I hold onto these until then, or to save myself the time to buy them? I might have to buy them anyway. I'm thinking of keeping them. I COULD also go into Edward's Challenge Dungeon and max them out quite quickly. Opinions?

Megalixir (34) - An obvious must.

Silver Apple (60) - 39 more of these and I can boost Cecil's HP by 4950. Obviously a keeper.

Soma Drop (10) - Keeper. I don't know whose MP I will improve though. An obvious choice would be a spellcaster, but also those with useful Band attacks who have low MP. Any suggestions?

Lustful Lali-ho (4) - I probably won't trade these in for Discovery Books, so they're garbage.

Emergency Exit (93) - Hasta la vista.

Tent (99) - Useless. Bye.

Cottage (99) - Useful for changing the moon phase and restoring MP.

Bomb Fragment (25) - They do too little damage. Trash.

Bomb Crank (18) - These, like the Arctic Wind and the Heavenly Wrath, I think they have their place. Against a boss who is strong against physical attacks, or against the Magus Sisters where you have to hit characters who aren't in the front, these can do the extra damage. I can't remember if they're reflected though, so they may be useless against the Magus's. Plus, if I'm fighting a boss weak vs. magic only, I may use a cadre of spellcasters anyway. It's a tough decision on these. *edit* They can't be reflected.

Antarctic Wind (18) - Bye.

Arctic Wind (7) - See above. Questionable.

Zeus's Wrath (15) - Doo doo.

Heavenly Wrath (16) - See above. Questionable.

Stardust (1) - May come in useful. I'm not sure of where or how much damage it does, but maybe I should keep it to try it out.

Lilith's Kiss (7) - Instant Osmose. (Osmose has a shitty charge time). Maybe useful for those with good band attacks and fewer magic points, but only against certain monsters, and only if a Megalixir won't be used. I'm thinking of throwing them out.

Bacchus's Wine (16) - GREAT. A keeper. With 9999 HP all around, Edward can use these on everyone at once and... oh it's going to be so much fun to watch.

Hermes Sandals (24) - EXCELLENT. Haste on everyone all at once without the random nature of Bard's Song or Dance.

Bronze Hourglass (23) - May not work on harder enemies. It IS a Stop spell, though. I'm on the fence on this one.

Silver Hourglass (2) - Same as the Bronze Hourglass.

Gold Hourglass (2) - This one may be a keeper just because of its length. Is there a boss that Stop works on? I don't think there is.

Spider Silk (99) - A must have.

Decoy (9) - Especially with Edward, perfect for using against a monster attacker.

Red Fang (3) - Damage based on HP. HP = 9999. Big damage. Keep.

White Fang (5) - See Red Fang.

Blue Fang (5) - See Red Fang (or even White Fang).

Light Curtain (13) - Reflect on everyone with Edward. Barring the need to heal (and with 9999 HP, it's not likely in some circumstances), it may be good to hang onto them.

Bomb Core (5) - I don't know if this is 1 for 1 HP damage. I can test it, but does anyone else know how they work? *edit* This is 1 for 1 damage.

Silent Bell (1) - Silence? Probably pointless. Discard.

Gaia Drum (4) - Quake. I may be able to use these. Same deal as the Bomb Crank, though.

Coeurl Whisker (19) - No bosses are weak against Instant Death are they? I'm thinking of tossing them.

Bestiary (2) - I can't think of a more useless item.

Alarm Clock (2) - Except maybe this. Is there a boss that uses Sleep? Garbage.

Unicorn Horn (29) - Sleep, Paralyze, Confuse and Berserk? Remedy can take care of those. Throwing them out.

Shuriken (19) - Not enough damage. Bye.

Cross Shurkien (3) - Maybe useful early on when I only have Edge, Rydia, Golbez and Luca. Keeping them.

Adamantite (43) - Going to get me some good armor to go with my high HP.

Bouquet (2) - I can't get rid of them! What good ARE they? I thought Edward gave them to Cecil! WHY????

Proof of Courage (1) - It's stuck to my face and it won't come off.

Kokkol Ore (2) - Don't know if I can drop them but they're obviously as useful as a bag on my hip.

Silver Tail (3) - I don't think I'm messing with tails. Rubbish.

Bronze Tail (1) - See Silver Tail.

I know that's a long list, but any opinions would be sooooo welcome. I'll be checking back at some point with some weapons to get opinions on those.

thri11ki11

Edit history:

thri11ki11: 2009-12-14 05:47:21 am

2009-12-14 05:23:49 am

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

The Crystals Update:

-The run I'm doing is a dry run. I'm only recording to observe different strategies I use and pick the best ones for the final run. I'm keeping track of the items I use as well. After I complete the game, I'm going to go back to all of the save files and sell the items that I don't use, thereby reducing the size of the Item menu and speeding up selection times.

-First thing I think is really crappy that I discovered: Edward's Salve ability only works with restorative items... meaning you can't use a Hermes Sandals or a Bacchus's Wine and Haste or Berserk everyone with one action. This sucks, and it makes the Sandals and the Wine (and Edward) less useful as a whole. I still think I'll be able to use them.

-If you have Calca and Brina in your party, you lose 5 seconds when you first visit Baron. If the dolls aren't useful during any of the endgame, I'm going to have to replay Rydia's Tale to get rid of them (which means Silver Apple farming... again! ugh).

-You can save about 3 seconds apiece if you kill Ramuh and Shiva instead of letting them survive. There's no reason, IMO to keep them alive, except to get Bahamut at the end (I think you need all the summons to get him). I never use them, and I'm not sure if I'll use Bahamut either, but it's something I can keep in mind.

-If you do Titan before Shiva, you save Porom before Palom and you save about 6 seconds in dialogue.

-If you bring Leonora into the final tale, you save about 7 seconds because Palom doesn't go through all of the rejection dialogue in Troia.

-During the first fight with Titan and the first fight with Ifrit, you don't even need to act. You only have to hit Cecil once during your second fight with him. During the fight with him and Odin, you don't have to act, either. Saves a ton of time.

-The Fangs are AWESOME. When I have full HP, against bosses that are weak against the element, they do 9999 damage; against other bosses they usually do around 4000-5000 damage, and they can't be reflected.

So far I've completed 10 segments, getting to the end of the first section (the place where it allows you to save after the Lunar Whale picks you up) and my time for my dry run is 0:33. For the sake of reference, my time at this point during a NG run was around 0:45. Here are some details.

Segment 1 (0:02) The intro only.
Segment 2 (0:04) Changing equipment, visiting Baron, changing to Full Moon, flying to Mysidia.
Segment 3 (0:07) Defeating Ramuh, picking up Porom, flying to Agart.
--Ramuh only gets off two actions.
Segment 4 (0:10) Defeating Titan, flying to Eblan.
--During the battle that counts, Titan only gets off two actions. Luca dies.
Segment 5 (0:16) Beating the Melt Golems, defeating Ifrit, Cecil fight, flying to the Lodestone Cavern.
--The Melt Golems take 3 hits apiece.
--Ifrit, like his cousins, gets only two actions.
Segment 6 (0:17) Running to the first save spot in Lodestone Cavern.
--I only run into 1 random encounter.
Segment 7 (0:23) Running to Shiva, defeating Shiva, visiting Fabul, flying to Damcyan.
--I get 2 random encounters here.
--Shiva only gets one action.
Segment 8 (0:24) Visiting Damcyan, flying to Kaipo Desert.
Segment 9 (0:28) Visiting Kaipo, Cecil fight, visiting Mist, flying to Baron.
Segment 10 (0:33) Fighting Cecil & Odin, fighting Mysterious Girl.
--Mysterious girl gets (surprise!) two actions. She doesn't even get a chance to summon.

My next task is to determine what party I will take into the fight with Baigan, who has 20,000 HP. Since spells are off limits due to his wall, I'm thinking of the following strategies. This is more of a sounding board for me to "think out loud."

--Strong attackers during a waning moon. I can take out Baigan's front arm and then pummel him to death. The party would probably consist of Kain and Ceodore (for their band), Ursula, Yang and maybe Gekkou.

--Strong attackers during a waning moon and a spellcaster for support. I would cast a powerful spell on Baigan since he doesn't cast wall until he's spelled. Then I can pummel him to death. I would probably use Kain and Ceodore, Ursula, Yang and Golbez (for Firaga) or Rydia (for Bomb summon - not sure how much damage that would do).

--Any three characters I want to level up during any moon, and two characters for fodder. I can attack Baigan once, then use Bomb Cores with the other two characters to blow him up (and themselves as well). This is a strategy I may want to save for a boss who gives more experience.

--Brina or Edward and an attacking party during a waning moon, and hope for Haste Dance or Haste March right off the bat (this will likely be a common strategy to try).

--I should see how much damage Harley does with Gil Toss, since I don't think I'll be using much money. She might be worth bringing in.

--Other strategies?

I'm not sure who I should level up, either...

The Crystals Update:

-The run I'm doing is a dry run. I'm only recording to observe different strategies I use and pick the best ones for the final run. I'm keeping track of the items I use as well. After I complete the game, I'm going to go back to all of the save files and sell the items that I don't use, thereby reducing the size of the Item menu and speeding up selection times.

-First thing I think is really crappy that I discovered: Edward's Salve ability only works with restorative items... meaning you can't use a Hermes Sandals or a Bacchus's Wine and Haste or Berserk everyone with one action. This sucks, and it makes the Sandals and the Wine (and Edward) less useful as a whole. I still think I'll be able to use them.

-If you have Calca and Brina in your party, you lose 5 seconds when you first visit Baron. If the dolls aren't useful during any of the endgame, I'm going to have to replay Rydia's Tale to get rid of them (which means Silver Apple farming... again! ugh).

-You can save about 3 seconds apiece if you kill Ramuh and Shiva instead of letting them survive. There's no reason, IMO to keep them alive, except to get Bahamut at the end (I think you need all the summons to get him). I never use them, and I'm not sure if I'll use Bahamut either, but it's something I can keep in mind.

-If you do Titan before Shiva, you save Porom before Palom and you save about 6 seconds in dialogue.

-If you bring Leonora into the final tale, you save about 7 seconds because Palom doesn't go through all of the rejection dialogue in Troia.

-During the first fight with Titan and the first fight with Ifrit, you don't even need to act. You only have to hit Cecil once during your second fight with him. During the fight with him and Odin, you don't have to act, either. Saves a ton of time.

-The Fangs are AWESOME. When I have full HP, against bosses that are weak against the element, they do 9999 damage; against other bosses they usually do around 4000-5000 damage, and they can't be reflected.

So far I've completed 10 segments, getting to the end of the first section (the place where it allows you to save after the Lunar Whale picks you up) and my time for my dry run is 0:33. For the sake of reference, my time at this point during a NG run was around 0:45. Here are some details.

Segment 1 (0:02) The intro only.
Segment 2 (0:04) Changing equipment, visiting Baron, changing to Full Moon, flying to Mysidia.
Segment 3 (0:07) Defeating Ramuh, picking up Porom, flying to Agart.
--Ramuh only gets off two actions.
Segment 4 (0:10) Defeating Titan, flying to Eblan.
--During the battle that counts, Titan only gets off two actions. Luca dies.
Segment 5 (0:16) Beating the Melt Golems, defeating Ifrit, Cecil fight, flying to the Lodestone Cavern.
--The Melt Golems take 3 hits apiece.
--Ifrit, like his cousins, gets only two actions.
Segment 6 (0:17) Running to the first save spot in Lodestone Cavern.
--I only run into 1 random encounter.
Segment 7 (0:23) Running to Shiva, defeating Shiva, visiting Fabul, flying to Damcyan.
--I get 2 random encounters here.
--Shiva only gets one action.
Segment 8 (0:24) Visiting Damcyan, flying to Kaipo Desert.
Segment 9 (0:28) Visiting Kaipo, Cecil fight, visiting Mist, flying to Baron.
Segment 10 (0:33) Fighting Cecil & Odin, fighting Mysterious Girl.
--Mysterious girl gets (surprise!) two actions. She doesn't even get a chance to summon.

My next task is to determine what party I will take into the fight with Baigan, who has 20,000 HP. Since spells are off limits due to his wall, I'm thinking of the following strategies. This is more of a sounding board for me to "think out loud."

--Strong attackers during a waning moon. I can take out Baigan's front arm and then pummel him to death. The party would probably consist of Kain and Ceodore (for their band), Ursula, Yang and maybe Gekkou.

--Strong attackers during a waning moon and a spellcaster for support. I would cast a powerful spell on Baigan since he doesn't cast wall until he's spelled. Then I can pummel him to death. I would probably use Kain and Ceodore, Ursula, Yang and Golbez (for Firaga) or Rydia (for Bomb summon - not sure how much damage that would do).

--Any three characters I want to level up during any moon, and two characters for fodder. I can attack Baigan once, then use Bomb Cores with the other two characters to blow him up (and themselves as well). This is a strategy I may want to save for a boss who gives more experience.

--Brina or Edward and an attacking party during a waning moon, and hope for Haste Dance or Haste March right off the bat (this will likely be a common strategy to try).

--I should see how much damage Harley does with Gil Toss, since I don't think I'll be using much money. She might be worth bringing in.

--Other strategies?

I'm not sure who I should level up, either...

thri11ki11

2009-12-15 11:18:59 am

Don't MAKE me come down these stairs

I just finished a dry, unrecorded NG+ run of The Crystals in 3:02. I think I can get it under 2:50 with a little tweaking.

slowbro

2009-12-15 06:29:43 pm

That's commitment if you redo Rydia's Tale to save 5 seconds!

I still think there are scenes in the ending that only play if you kept each Edge subordinate alive, one for each subordinate, but the only scenarios I've tried are keeping all of them alive and not even importing data from Edge's chapter. Whether or not to keep Golbez alive is an important decision too (I think the ending's longer if he is alive), but I bet you've already figured out which way is better.

I don't think I could give useful advice on which items to save. You've seen which ones are useful more than I have.

Sir VG

Edit history:

Sir VG: 2010-05-11 05:10:25 pm

2010-05-11 05:52:18 am

Fucking Weeaboo

*uses a Phoenix Down on thread*

I finally got some motivation back to work on this again, after watching some of thri11ki11's videos. I've made a MASSIVE improvement on Yang's Story. Time? 0:34 Single-Segment. And that's with a RNG that wasn't exactly generous. I wound up with nothing leftover in my inventory except for fire claws which were pulled from Yang. Every single High Potion I found (2) and bought + 2 Phoenix Downs were all necessary to make it though. Given I was on the high end of 0:34, about the only way to improve is to get a better RNG with less random battles, especially if I got one that didn't give me Zombies/Spirts in Adamant Isles (since I can't run form them until they all attack once).

So overall, despite minor issues, I think the run went very well, given I haven't played too many times since my August 09 attempts. I just don't know if I can get 0:33 without some major good luck and a generous RNG.

Edit: Generous RNG getting, I am not. I may not be able to get 0:33 purely because the RNG is crap.

*uses a Phoenix Down on thread*

I finally got some motivation back to work on this again, after watching some of thri11ki11's videos.  I've made a MASSIVE improvement on Yang's Story.  Time?  [b]0:34 Single-Segment[/b].  And that's with a RNG that wasn't exactly generous.  I wound up with nothing leftover in my inventory except for fire claws which were pulled from Yang.  Every single High Potion I found (2) and bought + 2 Phoenix Downs were all necessary to make it though.   Given I was on the high end of 0:34, about the only way to improve is to get a better RNG with less random battles, especially if I got one that didn't give me Zombies/Spirts in Adamant Isles (since I can't run form them until they all attack once).

So overall, despite minor issues, I think the run went very well, given I haven't played too many times since my August 09 attempts.  I just don't know if I can get 0:33 without some major good luck and a generous RNG.

Edit: Generous RNG getting, I am not.  I may not be able to get 0:33 purely because the RNG is crap.