Final Fantasy 1 - Segmented (Run Submitted!)

Winkwonle

Edit history:

Winkwonle: 2011-08-13 08:26:04 pm

2011-08-13 08:24:35 pm

Alright, not missing the streaming this time! Nice of you naming said Black Belt Wink :-)

Marten Broadcloak

2013-08-08 10:12:13 pm

YOU DARE NOT.

Bringing this to the front because of two reasons:

1. I've been planning a SS run of this for a while, and while I have a route worked out, haven't had time to stream it as of yet.

2. I heard Feasel took a run at this today, and was on pace for a time extremely close to the segmented run. (nasty criticals on Kraken there, man...)

Best of luck to you, sir. Grin

Darkwing Duck

2013-08-08 11:53:48 pm

Highly Evolved

Feasel's put I'm guessing 60-100 hours preparing his route.

Marten Broadcloak

2013-08-09 05:55:38 pm

YOU DARE NOT.

I don't doubt it for a second...I remember putting serious time into it when I did the first TAS back in 2005.

Obviously, being able to manipulate the encounter table via the hard reset is what made the current TAS/segmented runs work so well...and is probably the one thing that bothers me most.

Feasel's run was excellent..I just have a few different ideas regarding parties and routes that I need to put to test. I always figured/guesstimated a SS route would run in the 3:30ish range.

Marten Broadcloak

2013-09-17 05:43:22 pm

YOU DARE NOT.

It's been a while, but I finally finished my first test run today.

Start to Chaos "terminated" message : 3:48:10.

Some sloppy menuing (a sign I need better notes...), and I'm not completely sold on Agama farming until level 15. I think one could get away with stopping at level 14 based on where I finished at in levels:

Ran a bit short on HEAL potions at the end...going to have to explore possibly picking up CUR2/CUR3 for the Red Mage/Wizard.

Back to the drawing board...but I think it's possible to come in under 3:30.

Marten Broadcloak

2013-09-18 03:02:40 am

YOU DARE NOT.

Big congrats to Feasel for his 3:42 that just happened....and some clutch fighting by a man named Bil. thumbsup

gyre

2013-09-18 03:26:28 am

Bil is the champion. 3:30 definitely looks possible with better luck avoiding deaths and not having to improvise the step counter. Skipping Xcalber is IN.

Fionordeguester

2013-09-19 04:31:47 pm

So why are you using a Black Mage?

Marten Broadcloak

2013-09-19 08:52:09 pm

YOU DARE NOT.

Mainly because I wanted to temper/eliminate the luck factor with the wizards in the Marsh Cave.

My old route had my Black Mage at level 5 before leaving Elfland, thus a charge of LIT2...which makes that fight ridiculously easier, be it 2 wizards or 4.

I've made some changes to the route, though...so that won't be used anymore. I'm going to explore using a Red Mage instead, but I think I'm sticking with Black for time being. Once he gets the Gold Bracelet in Ordeals, he's no worse for wear than anyone else, save his HP.

Carcinogen

2013-09-20 04:39:59 pm

^ You're playing on Origins? 'Cuz Temper doesn't work on the NES version.

I have no name

2013-09-20 04:46:45 pm

Obscure games ftw

I think he means temper, as in reduce there. It makes sense in the context.

Fionordeguester

2013-09-20 04:49:26 pm

So what's your route right now Marten?

Marten Broadcloak

2013-09-20 05:19:44 pm

YOU DARE NOT.

Early game doesn't change at all. Everything plays out as it should up to finishing Earth Cave and going to Crescent Lake. From there:

Ordeals
Ice Cave
Airship
Volcano (Agama farming and Kary)
Class Change
Bottle
Melmond (LIFE/WARP/BANE....yes, BANE.)
Waterfall
Gaia (Prorings and Oxyale)
Sea Shrine
Lefein
Mirage Tower
Coneria
TOFR

There's some visits to towns mixed in there for HEAL refills and whatnot, but that's the route. Basically comes down to encounter manipulation (which looks tacky, but avoiding some of the uglier required fights like Warmech makes it necessary), but I'll still be taking a few risks in the run....like BANE.

A lot of time spent in that first Tiamat fight...and I've got 3 charges of BANE to work with when I reach him. Any strike with it in the first 4 rounds (first round = FAST) saves me minimum a minute+...and doesn't really cost me anything otherwise.

I tested a few new ideas this morning, and ended up with a 3:33:17...and that was with an atrocious Chaos fight. (he got CUR4 off...ended up taking me almost 2 minutes longer to beat him) The tradeoff? BANE worked on round 3 on Tiamat.

I figure if everything goes as it should, sub 3:30 should happen easily. Just need to put it all together in one run...

Early game doesn't change at all.  Everything plays out as it should up to finishing Earth Cave and going to Crescent Lake.  From there:

Ordeals
Ice Cave
Airship
Volcano (Agama farming and Kary)
Class Change
Bottle
Melmond (LIFE/WARP/BANE....yes, BANE.)
Waterfall
Gaia (Prorings and Oxyale)
Sea Shrine
Lefein
Mirage Tower
Coneria
TOFR

There's some visits to towns mixed in there for HEAL refills and whatnot, but that's the route.  Basically comes down to encounter manipulation (which looks tacky, but avoiding some of the uglier required fights like Warmech makes it necessary), but I'll still be taking a few risks in the run....like BANE.

A lot of time spent in that first Tiamat fight...and I've got 3 charges of BANE to work with when I reach him.  Any strike with it in the first 4 rounds (first round = FAST) saves me minimum a minute+...and doesn't really cost me anything otherwise.

I tested a few new ideas this morning, and ended up with a 3:33:17...and that was with an atrocious Chaos fight. (he got CUR4 off...ended up taking me almost 2 minutes longer to beat him) The tradeoff?  BANE worked on round 3 on Tiamat.

I figure if everything goes as it should, sub 3:30 should happen easily.  Just need to put it all together in one run...

Fionordeguester

2013-09-20 05:32:16 pm

I remember though that the current SS record is a lot different from even that though, with a Fighter/Fighter/Red Mage/White Mage party and the like, so I'm getting the feeling that there's a lot I missed out on. So, assuming that that was the last one I watched, what are all the changes? Besides swapping mages?

Marten Broadcloak

2013-09-20 05:44:47 pm

YOU DARE NOT.

The whole idea of the run was to go from power on (encounter 1), and go with no manipulating the starting encounter table via soft-resetting like the segmented run does.

White Mage isn't really doable because you preferably want HP and damage output...which is why Feasel is running with FI/FI/RM/RM right now. I run BM in the 4th slot because of earlier spell charges at certain points, and that also lets me cut my leveling a bit shorter as well.

Biggest change is actually using the encounter table to our advantage. Short version is that there's a cycle that the step counter goes through, and encounters are always fixed on certain numbers. The catch is, if you're on a boat or in a dungeon, some of those encounters are skipped.

Easiest example: Steps A, B and C are encounters, but B doesn't trigger in a dungeon or on a boat. If you're close to B near a boat dock or an entrance to a dungeon, it'd be worthwhile to step either in/on, burn the required amount of steps, then step back out. You avoid an encounter that way, and get more time to walk before you trigger the next one.

Using this idea on a segmented run would cut that time down as well...because there are some encounters that just can't be helped single-segment (Wizards in Earth Cave, stunlocking groups of Geists/Specters, etc.), and a segmented run could manipulate the counter enough that any dungeon trip would be a breeze.

The whole idea of the run was to go from power on (encounter 1), and go with no manipulating the starting encounter table via soft-resetting like the segmented run does.

White Mage isn't really doable because you preferably want HP and damage output...which is why Feasel is running with FI/FI/RM/RM right now.  I run BM in the 4th slot because of earlier spell charges at certain points, and that also lets me cut my leveling a bit shorter as well.

Biggest change is actually using the encounter table to our advantage.  Short version is that there's a cycle that the step counter goes through, and encounters are always fixed on certain numbers.  The catch is, if you're on a boat or in a dungeon, some of those encounters are skipped.

Easiest example:  Steps A, B and C are encounters, but B doesn't trigger in a dungeon or on a boat.  If you're close to B near a boat dock or an entrance to a dungeon, it'd be worthwhile to step either in/on, burn the required amount of steps, then step back out.  You avoid an encounter that way, and get more time to walk before you trigger the next one.

Using this idea on a segmented run would cut that time down as well...because there are some encounters that just can't be helped single-segment (Wizards in Earth Cave, stunlocking groups of Geists/Specters, etc.), and a segmented run could manipulate the counter enough that any dungeon trip would be a breeze.

Fionordeguester

2013-09-20 05:49:56 pm

I see. So how viable would you say the Fighter/Fighter/Red Mage/Black Mage setup is for a Single Segment? I ran it through last night, and it seemed to work quite well. And what of the Agama farming? Last I checked, Winkwonle liked to get to Level 13 on Zombie D's then get to Level 16 on Eye's.

Marten Broadcloak

2013-09-20 05:57:49 pm

YOU DARE NOT.

Not the easiest group in the world, by far...until you get the Gold Bracelet in Ordeals, BM is a walking bullseye to anything that wants to take a swipe at him. As long as he gets his FIR2 off on Lich before/if ICE2 wipes him out, he seems to do just fine otherwise.

As for farming? None whatsoever until Agamas. I entered the volcano at 9/10/10/10 I believe, and went straight to 14. Once your Ice Sword and Flame Sword go to 3 hits/round, it's usually a guaranteed 1 round kill. Eyes are too dangerous because you've got nothing to stop their special attacks. Agama's worst case scenario is HEAT, and that can be balanced out with the Heal Staff on the occasions it is needed.

Also, there's a 2 spot area in the volcano that are back to back forced Agama encounters. Doesn't advance the step counter, so that's a good thing...and one less variable to worry about during a run. Feasel will attest to the fact that these routes are planned to the step...there's not much play if you screw up walking somewhere.

Not the easiest group in the world, by far...until you get the Gold Bracelet in Ordeals, BM is a walking bullseye to anything that wants to take a swipe at him.  As long as he gets his FIR2 off on Lich before/if ICE2 wipes him out, he seems to do just fine otherwise.

As for farming?  None whatsoever until Agamas.  I entered the volcano at 9/10/10/10 I believe, and went straight to 14.  Once your Ice Sword and Flame Sword go to 3 hits/round, it's usually a guaranteed 1 round kill.  Eyes are too dangerous because you've got nothing to stop their special attacks.  Agama's worst case scenario is HEAT, and that can be balanced out with the Heal Staff on the occasions it is needed.

Also, there's a 2 spot area in the volcano that are back to back forced Agama encounters.  Doesn't advance the step counter, so that's a good thing...and one less variable to worry about during a run.  Feasel will attest to the fact that these routes are planned to the step...there's not much play if you screw up walking somewhere.

Fionordeguester

2013-09-20 07:36:01 pm

So which IS the most consistent party? I would've thought the Black Mage would be the best simply because he has LIT2 for both the Wizards and Astos, but I'm guessing it would actually be the Fighter/Fighter/Red Mage/Red Mage party? Based on what you're saying?

scaryice

2013-09-20 07:39:49 pm

So what did Feasel do differently for the record run? I didn't bother watching the routing streams.

Marten Broadcloak

2013-09-20 07:56:27 pm

YOU DARE NOT.

I'd say FI/FI/RM/RM is definitely the safer of the two groups. I think BM has more potential for being a faster run because of BANE and its early spell charges (an extra L3 charge at level 6 makes a world of difference in a Wizard/stunlock fight in the Earth Cave), but in terms of a run ending up going sideways? A BM will definitely burn you in that regard...a Copper Bracelet, Cap and limited HP doesn't stand up quite the same as Chain Armor in the early game.

Feasel's run..."clicked"...I'd definitely go watch it. It had its dicey moments of people dying, etc..., but nothing completely debilitating. If you can get past the major bosses keeping your damage potential intact (ex: not losing a wizard at LICH before they drop their FIR2 charges, avoiding Kraken's critical hits, keeping your Masamune wielder intact for Chaos, etc.), not get stunlocked, not miss 3-4 rounds of flees in a battle...then you'll have a decent run.

To get an unbeatable run, though? You would need some severe manipulation (Segmented/TAS luck)...because something will always go wrong.

I'd say FI/FI/RM/RM is definitely the safer of the two groups.  I think BM has more potential for being a faster run because of BANE and its early spell charges (an extra L3 charge at level 6 makes a world of difference in a Wizard/stunlock fight in the Earth Cave), but in terms of a run ending up going sideways?  A BM will definitely burn you in that regard...a Copper Bracelet, Cap and limited HP doesn't stand up quite the same as Chain Armor in the early game.

Feasel's run..."clicked"...I'd definitely go watch it.  It had its dicey moments of people dying, etc..., but nothing completely debilitating.  If you can get past the major bosses keeping your damage potential intact (ex: not losing a wizard at LICH before they drop their FIR2 charges, avoiding Kraken's critical hits, keeping your Masamune wielder intact for Chaos, etc.), not get stunlocked, not miss 3-4 rounds of flees in a battle...then you'll have a decent run.

To get an unbeatable run, though?  You would need some severe manipulation (Segmented/TAS luck)...because something will always go wrong.

Fionordeguester

2013-09-22 08:07:51 pm

Yo, by the way. Does anyone know where the game mechanics for the Dawn of Souls and PSP version is? I want to know what affects your chance to run away.

Winkwonle

2013-09-24 05:18:48 pm

Hi everyone, I've finally got the time to watch Feasel's run, and let me say that it was really amazing! Major contratulations to him!! I'm sure he can even cut a few minutes if he hesitates less in the menus and stuff like that, but getting a whole 4 hours without any hesitation or small errors is nearly impossible anyway.

Now, since it seems I've been defeated, I've taken the time to watch Feasel's run side-by-side with my own, and comparing where time is lost on both sides. Here's what I've come up with.

My losses:
- Up to Astos, we have identical time despite our very different battle schedules
- I lose 6 minutes going back to Astos's, killing mummies and buying AICE, which doesn't even end up working
- I lose 4 minutes going out of my route to revive my White Mage when he gets surprise-killed by Tigers
- I do fights that don't give me anything useful, mainly in the Earth Cave, instead of running all the time
- I lose 3 minutes jumping to my backup encounter schedule when arriving at Ordeals
- I spend 1½ minutes picking up Aegis Shield and Heal Helmet in the Mirage Tower, which don't give me much
- I spend 1 minute doing the Xcalber quest, though I think it pays for itself so I would still do it
- I totally screw my execution of the petrification trick, spending 3 minutes where Feasel spends 30 seconds
- I end up with 30 Heal potions left, and instead spam the Heal items in the TOFR for no reason
- I neglect walking on encounter-free squares like the bottom of rooms
- I spend 14 minutes grinding on Zombie D's and 11 minutes grinding on Eyes.

Feasel's losses:
- He has a pretty risky Wizard fight (on my part, I abuse RUSE and get no problem there)
- He gets a number of scary undead fights where he's lucky to run away
- He does the Gurgu Volcano while low level (hard to tell exactly how much it costs him)
- He gets a pretty slow Sea Shrine (~3 minutes slower than mine)
- He spends more Heal potions on the Mirage Tower and Sea Shrine than me
- He gets a slow TOFR before the elemental floors (~1½ slower than me)
- He doesn't use the White Shirt at all, and has to be pretty lucky to survive Kraken2
- He also doesn't have HEL2, which is pretty much the best white spell
- He arrives at Chaos with pretty much nothing left, and manages to place a winning crit for 500 on a round where CUR4 was next in line
- The Agama grinding strategy costs around 28 minutes, against my 25 (if my estimations aren't wrong)

I was impressed at Feasel's stoicism when he lost his RM in the Earth Cave part 1, and faced Lich anyway. I sometimes lose to Lich with a fully healed party, better equipped and 2 levels higher. I was also impressed by the Chaos fight :-)

So, if I were to redo this run and try to get sub 3:42, I'd definitely have to cut a few corners. Feasel is something like 2 levels lower for the whole run, and it never seems to slow him down or anything. There's an easy 10 minutes I can cut from my time if I just get a little tighter on resources (I think).

I'm still not sold on Fi/Fi/RM/RM by the way. It's crazy good, but I don't see my WM being the cause of any real slowdown.

I'll do some experiments on emulator for a while and I'll have more comments probably. Also, I'd be very interested in Feasel's comments on what he decided to improve from my run and why. :-)

Hi everyone, I've finally got the time to watch Feasel's run, and let me say that it was really amazing! Major contratulations to him!! I'm sure he can even cut a few minutes if he hesitates less in the menus and stuff like that, but getting a whole 4 hours without any hesitation or small errors is nearly impossible anyway.

Now, since it seems I've been defeated, I've taken the time to watch Feasel's run side-by-side with my own, and comparing where time is lost on both sides. Here's what I've come up with.

My losses:
- Up to Astos, we have identical time despite our very different battle schedules
- I lose 6 minutes going back to Astos's, killing mummies and buying AICE, which doesn't even end up working
- I lose 4 minutes going out of my route to revive my White Mage when he gets surprise-killed by Tigers
- I do fights that don't give me anything useful, mainly in the Earth Cave, instead of running all the time
- I lose 3 minutes jumping to my backup encounter schedule when arriving at Ordeals
- I spend 1½ minutes picking up Aegis Shield and Heal Helmet in the Mirage Tower, which don't give me much
- I spend 1 minute doing the Xcalber quest, though I think it pays for itself so I would still do it
- I totally screw my execution of the petrification trick, spending 3 minutes where Feasel spends 30 seconds
- I end up with 30 Heal potions left, and instead spam the Heal items in the TOFR for no reason
- I neglect walking on encounter-free squares like the bottom of rooms
- I spend 14 minutes grinding on Zombie D's and 11 minutes grinding on Eyes.

Feasel's losses:
- He has a pretty risky Wizard fight (on my part, I abuse RUSE and get no problem there)
- He gets a number of scary undead fights where he's lucky to run away
- He does the Gurgu Volcano while low level (hard to tell exactly how much it costs him)
- He gets a pretty slow Sea Shrine (~3 minutes slower than mine)
- He spends more Heal potions on the Mirage Tower and Sea Shrine than me
- He gets a slow TOFR before the elemental floors (~1½ slower than me)
- He doesn't use the White Shirt at all, and has to be pretty lucky to survive Kraken2
- He also doesn't have HEL2, which is pretty much the best white spell
- He arrives at Chaos with pretty much nothing left, and manages to place a winning crit for 500 on a round where CUR4 was next in line
- The Agama grinding strategy costs around 28 minutes, against my 25 (if my estimations aren't wrong)

I was impressed at Feasel's stoicism when he lost his RM in the Earth Cave part 1, and faced Lich anyway. I sometimes lose to Lich with a fully healed party, better equipped and 2 levels higher. I was also impressed by the Chaos fight :-)

So, if I were to redo this run and try to get sub 3:42, I'd definitely have to cut a few corners. Feasel is something like 2 levels lower for the whole run, and it never seems to slow him down or anything. There's an easy 10 minutes I can cut from my time if I just get a little tighter on resources (I think).

I'm still not sold on Fi/Fi/RM/RM by the way. It's crazy good, but I don't see my WM being the cause of any real slowdown.

I'll do some experiments on emulator for a while and I'll have more comments probably. Also, I'd be very interested in Feasel's comments on what he decided to improve from my run and why. :-)

Tuff_fish

2013-12-15 12:05:17 am

Bump

Congrats to Feasel! I actually just saw it posted and haven't watched it yet, but 3:42 Single Segment FF1 is amazing. I remember comparing some earlier iterations of one of my routes side by side to Wink's run, and I was falling behind very fast. You don't realize just how fast 3:50 or 3:42 is until you try to do it yourself.

Anyway, I wanted to share a FFRR route I worked on probably a couple years back. This one is very fast and surprisingly reliable. In particular, with this exact route, there is almost no danger from undead in either the Marsh Cave area or Earth Cave area. There are also no cocktrices in the Earth Cave with this route and depending on what you do after the Earth Cave, there may not be any Medusa (or any danger) in CoO either. I had originally planned on speed running this myself but I just haven't had the time to and don't see that changing anytime soon. Hopefully somebody else finds this entertaining and useful. If somebody can give some feedback, great, if someone can use it in a run, even better!

Special thanks to Wink for all that he has done for this game (The runs, discussion, and Mechanics page-- I found the encounter poster, damage comparator, and boss guides especially helpful.)

My notes on this run are kind of dinky so I'm filling in a lot of gaps from memory. As such, some minor strategy considerations may have to be altered but the main part of this is right. For example, there are a lot of possible battle combinations (i.e. number of monsters faced) that affect inn stays, weapon, and item purchases. Sometimes non-crucial items or spells have to be skipped or delayed. It's not uncommon for there to be deaths in the game and for the most part, one character can be KO'd without much if any loss of time or alteration of strategy. The most important things here are the battle numbers and how each zone is manipulated first and foremost to avoid potential run ending encounter groups. In many spots, the walking is very, very tight, so even one single misstep can screw up the run. Sometimes it can be correct to take an unproductive battle in one spot to avoid a much worse one several battles later.

A quick primer about magic. Early on it is very productive and it is important to be very aggressive with it before leaving for the Marsh Cave. Often you can use Ice/Lit combo in the sea and Fire/Ice combo on land. Cure really doesn't factor into my early game strategy. Every single spell charge is important in the Marsh cave trek so use it accordingly (keeping in mind you have to hit level 5 on the way to the Wizards and there is some leeway in what to fight depending on what exact battles you get along the way.) Also playing from a reset, losing a run 15 minutes in isn't that big of a deal.

This route isn't comprehensive enough to list every single instance of whether you should fight or run. As a general rule, run unless you have to fight due to a level you must hit or a danger you must avoid. Specifically, you fight the majority of battles (usually running from junk) in the early game until Wizards. You must get level 5 on the way. It is usually better to confront undead for safety reasons. There is also a stretch in the game starting after Astos and through the Earth Cave where your party is getting stronger, and it can be very tempting to fight a lot of battles that look juicy but really aren't. I am not saying you can't fight anything but it really is best to just advance the game because XP gain increases exponentially. You should get to Lich at level 7 with this route.

When I say battle 1 I mean the first encounter on the game (formation 3.) If I say something like 6:2 in Marshes I mean the 6th battle in the game, battle formation 2 which is 1-2 Ogres in the Marshes. Keep in mind that some zones pop up in several different locations. Marshes in the context of battle 6 would mean south of Pravoka. In the Marsh Cave segment, there are several blocks on the world map that have the Marsh enemies. Anway....

The Route:

Garland
- Hard reset
- Party Fighter (A), Fighter (B), Red Mage (C), Red Mage (D)
- Buy 4x Rapier, 2x Chain, Fire (C), Lit (D)
- Fight imps, Ghoul, Garland

Ship
- Inn
- Fight 1-2 creep battle and 1-2 ogre battle in Marshes, inn (maybe)
- Kill pirates, inn (maybe)
- Buy 2x ice
- Fight GrOgre, 1-2ogre battle in marshes
- Buy Short Sword, inn

Shopping and Gold
- Fight Shark/R. Sahag, Kyzokus battles (should be able to immediately dock to Coneria after Kyzokus)
- Inn, Buy 2x chain, Fog & Cure (both to C/fire. Would delay Cure if funds don't allow both. Lit is at a premium in the Marsh Cave with Mucks and Wizards and there isn't much, if any room to use Cure anyway.)
- Head to 1025 dwarf gold, fight Shark/R.Sahag, Ogre/Creeps, usually run from both wolves
- Head straight to Elfland, fight Shark and Ogre/Creeps

Shopping and Marsh Cave
- Inn
- Buy armor and items. I don't have much written down here but I know gold is significantly variable at this stage. Pretty sure I would try to buy shields, helmets, caps, heals, and a few pure or so. We can avoid a lot of poisonous enemies with careful planning

- This is another area where unfortunately I didn't write great notes. Here is what I have written down: Run 16:1 on Elf side or dash into Marsh side to skip Scum battles on Marsh B2. I'm pretty sure I mostly used the latter.
- Run 17:2
- Fight 18:4 (1-2 Ogres)
- Run 19:5 (Marsh territory)
- Fight 20:7 (Mucks) in cave (you can use at least 1 lit here)
- Short Sword
- My notes are bad again but you can take battle 21:4 on B2 I believe, skipping ghouls on B1
- Grab Bracelet, Iron armor, and house on B3. Need a small amount of luck running from scorpions.
- Fight Wizards. Should have earned level 5 along the way. My strategy changed a lot and it is somewhat dependant on how the shopping went and what the party/heal situation is. I think my preferred strategy was Fight - Fight - Lit - Fog (1st fighter), then always fighting with the fighters and using lit, fog, cure/heal, or ice with the reds as appropriate. It's a good idea to have exact numbers in your head for this fight; sometimes lit, ice, or even fir can be a guaranteed 1 hit kill on the second round, that sort of thing.

Astos
- House when needed. Can be anytime after leaving Marsh and before entering NW Castle really.
- 30:4 in Marshes is ghouls and somewhat dangerous. I think my best solution was to back-row a fighter and the red mage with fire and to fight it out.
- Take the Elfland side (right at split) to avoid Arachnids.
- Blast Astos with magic

Earth Cave preparation
- Pretty sure I would run from everything. Hit Earth Cave part 1 at level 6 and Earth Cave part 2 at level 7. Sometimes there is an interesting dilemma whether or not to fight a couple of the 'juicy' fights to bump a previously KO'd RM up to the desired level. It depends.
- Wish I had the exact numbers/sequencing but we buy FIR2x2 at Elfland, NO SOFTS, sell lots of stuff raid Elfland, Coneria, and Dwarf Chests, make sure to have FIR and CUR to both reds.
- Counterintuitively, this party is actually very cheap to outfit. Reds can just have Chain armor and caps, and pick up Dragon/Coral Swords. Iron everything and long swords (1500 each) to both fighters. Have something like 10-15 pures, a few extra tents, and the rest Heals.

Earth Cave
- There is a bad undead battle on the way to Earth Cave that can be avoided by staying in the proper (Elfland monsters) zone
- Get Coral Sword in B2
- Take Battle 55 on Earth B2 near the steps to B3. First trip Earth B3 should be battles 56-63. This narrowly escapes cocktrices on both sides. Fight (Long) - FIght (Long) - Fight (Coral) - Fight (Dragon) vs Wizards, and you usually have two total shots of FIR2 for the two full screen undead battles. You can usually just run from mummies. If you only have 1 shot of FIR2 because one RDM died at some point and couldn't reasonably be brought up to level 6 before leaving Melmond, there are different strategies you can try (e.g. run, run, run, FIR2, or all out run and only use FIR2 if stuck.)
- Get Rod
- Run from Tigers (69:6) in Tunnel to avoid 73:1 outside(screen full of geists/ghouls). 73:1 is taken in Titan's Tunnel on the way back to the Earth Cave

Earth Cave, second trip
- Earth B3 round 2 starting at battle 81.
- Mostly safe battles. If you can save one shot each of Fir2 for Lich that is ideal, but not strictly necessary. Even just one total charge of Fir2 is very helpful.
- Switch Swords and defeat Lich Fight (Dragon) - Fight (Coral) - Fir2/Fir - Fir2/Fir
- Avoid battle 91:1 in Melmond by getting back to the safe Elfland Monsters zone ASAP. Elfland Zone is very common on the world map; you are still near Melmond but you have to get far enough North. I seem to recall it being on the same row as the top of the ship dock, but make sure you experiment and know where the corner of this zone is. Your party will be pretty damn crippled and if you get this wrong, it's usually a run ender. As long as you can get back to Melmond and Inn you should be safe, even if you only have 1-2 party members alive.
- Head to Crescent Lake. Battle 95 should be roughly in front of CL.

Where to go from here? Well to be honest, while working on this route I had planned to take the usual path to Ordeals then Ice Cave, mostly following Winkwonle's path with appropriate adjustments for my party. As it turns out, an underleveled red mage at this level isn't as effective as farming Zombie Ds as the white mage is. More importantly, for as favorable as the battles are in the Marsh and Earth cave segments, it is pretty damn brutal to go through CoO at this stage in the encounter table. You have to take on a lot of risk in running or count through quite a few battles. With how solid the strat is through the Earth Cave, I think the former is the better option.

There is one other strategy you might want to try. Quite honestly, I am not sure how competitive this leveling strategy is from a timing standpoint. I really didn't get that far in the planning. The game through the Earth Cave is a minority of the game but it is so, so important. That is what I spent the majority of the time on. So, with that disclaimer out of the way...

Go to the PNEOP! At this point in the game... really?

Here is roughly how you do it:

- Buy 4 houses at CL
- Sell Dragon and Coral Swords
- Buy Silver Sword and Silver Axe (I settled on this combination as the Axe is more immediately useful, but the Sword has hand-me-down usefulness and depending on your exact strategy you might eventually give it back to the fighter when it gets 3 hit threshold)
- Not really sure what I bought, perhaps a couple cabins?, maybe a piece of silver armor or two if I could afford it, but towards the end when I was really cutting corners and dashing, I don't think I was buying any armor. Not sure.
- Sail north then around the panhandle to get to PNEOP from the otherwise never used dock near Pravoka
- Take battle 100 on land heading to PNEOP
- Fight battles 101-110 (All Giants or Troll/Zombull). Strategy is basically Fight (Silver Axe) - Fight (Silver Sword) - Fir2/Ice/Fire/Attack - Fir2/Ice/Fire/Attack. At one point I sold the Long Swords as well but I think it's better to keep them and use Long Swords as secondary attack once Reds hit level 9 for 2 hit threshold. Use Ice/Fir as secondary attack until then. Use Houses when out of Fir2, Cabin when hit points are low, and Cure between battles to heal minor damage. Only use 3 houses at PNEOP, saving one for CoO. This is actually a very safe strategy. It is the timing issue I'm not sure about.

- Interestingly enough, you can walk/canoe to Ice Cave but that doesn't work out so well (neither does going by Ship)
- Best is to head to CoO. I seem to remember heading NW through the ocean was the fastest route.
- Enter CoO for battle 115. Mummies, Zombulls, Zombulls on 2F and Mummies, Mummies on 3F. There are lots of possible ways to grind out XP to get Warp. Some combination of fighting, Zombie Ds, Agamas (FFR), or Eyes.
- Mass shopping at Elfland afterwards
- There are safe paths through Ice cave as well. Eye farming is doable but considerably more risky (both the Eye farming itself and the extra steps.) Agama farming is another option. One possible strategy is to kill off 1 red mage and use Ice/Flame/Silver swords, not using Zeus at all here, and only sparingly using the heal staff. Like I said though, this part of this game was significantly less refined than the strategy through the Earth cave.

There are a lot more intricacies to this route. I am actually curious to see how well it holds up after watching Feasel's run and starting to play the game again myself. I hope it holds up well anyway as I tend to think it mitigates a lot of the disadvantages of the FFRR party with undeads in and around the Earth Cave being the biggest one.

Bump

Congrats to Feasel!  I actually just saw it posted and haven't watched it yet, but 3:42 Single Segment FF1 is amazing.  I remember comparing some earlier iterations of one of my routes side by side to Wink's run, and I was falling behind very fast.  You don't realize just how fast 3:50 or 3:42 is until you try to do it yourself.

Anyway, I wanted to share a FFRR route I worked on probably a couple years back.  This one is very fast and surprisingly reliable.  In particular, with this exact route, there is almost no danger from undead in either the Marsh Cave area or Earth Cave area.  There are also no cocktrices in the Earth Cave with this route and depending on what you do after the Earth Cave, there may not be any Medusa (or any danger) in CoO either.  I had originally planned on speed running this myself but I just haven't had the time to and don't see that changing anytime soon.  Hopefully somebody else finds this entertaining and useful.  If somebody can give some feedback, great, if someone can use it in a run, even better!

Special thanks to Wink for all that he has done for this game (The runs, discussion, and Mechanics page-- I found the encounter poster, damage comparator, and boss guides especially helpful.)

My notes on this run are kind of dinky so I'm filling in a lot of gaps from memory.  As such, some minor strategy considerations may have to be altered but the main part of this is right.  For example, there are a lot of possible battle combinations (i.e. number of monsters faced) that affect inn stays, weapon, and item purchases.  Sometimes non-crucial items or spells have to be skipped or delayed.  It's not uncommon for there to be deaths in the game and for the most part, one character can be KO'd without much if any loss of time or alteration of strategy.  The most important things here are the battle numbers and how each zone is manipulated first and foremost to avoid potential run ending encounter groups.  In many spots, the walking is very, very tight, so even one single misstep can screw up the run.  Sometimes it can be correct to take an unproductive battle in one spot to avoid a much worse one several battles later.

A quick primer about magic.  Early on it is very productive and it is important to be very aggressive with it before leaving for the Marsh Cave. Often you can use Ice/Lit combo in the sea and Fire/Ice combo on land.  Cure really doesn't factor into my early game strategy.  Every single spell charge is important in the Marsh cave trek so use it accordingly (keeping in mind you have to hit level 5 on the way to the Wizards and there is some leeway in what to fight depending on what exact battles you get along the way.)  Also playing from a reset, losing a run 15 minutes in isn't that big of a deal.

This route isn't comprehensive enough to list every single instance of whether you should fight or run.  As a general rule, run unless you have to fight due to a level you must hit or a danger you must avoid.  Specifically, you fight the majority of battles (usually running from junk) in the early game until Wizards.  You must get level 5 on the way.  It is usually better to confront undead for safety reasons.  There is also a stretch in the game starting after Astos and through the Earth Cave where your party is getting stronger, and it can be very tempting to fight a lot of battles that look juicy but really aren't.  I am not saying you can't fight anything but it really is best to just advance the game because XP gain increases exponentially.  You should get to Lich at level 7 with this route.

When I say battle 1 I mean the first encounter on the game (formation 3.)  If I say something like 6:2 in Marshes I mean the 6th battle in the game, battle formation 2 which is 1-2 Ogres in the Marshes.  Keep in mind that some zones pop up in several different locations.  Marshes in the context of battle 6 would mean south of Pravoka.  In the Marsh Cave segment, there are several blocks on the world map that have the Marsh enemies.  Anway....

The Route:

Garland
- Hard reset
- Party Fighter (A), Fighter (B), Red Mage (C), Red Mage (D)
- Buy 4x Rapier, 2x Chain, Fire (C), Lit (D)
- Fight imps, Ghoul, Garland

Ship
- Inn
- Fight 1-2 creep battle and 1-2 ogre battle in Marshes, inn (maybe)
- Kill pirates, inn (maybe)
- Buy 2x ice
- Fight GrOgre, 1-2ogre battle in marshes
- Buy Short Sword, inn

Shopping and Gold
- Fight Shark/R. Sahag, Kyzokus battles (should be able to immediately dock to Coneria after Kyzokus)
- Inn, Buy 2x chain, Fog & Cure (both to C/fire.  Would delay Cure if funds don't allow both.  Lit is at a premium in the Marsh Cave with Mucks and Wizards and there isn't much, if any room to use Cure anyway.) 
- Head to 1025 dwarf gold, fight Shark/R.Sahag, Ogre/Creeps, usually run from both wolves
- Head straight to Elfland, fight Shark and Ogre/Creeps

Shopping and Marsh Cave
- Inn
- Buy armor and items.  I don't have much written down here but I know gold is significantly variable at this stage.  Pretty sure I would try to buy shields, helmets, caps, heals, and a few pure or so.  We can avoid a lot of poisonous enemies with careful planning

- This is another area where unfortunately I didn't write great notes.  Here is what I have written down: Run 16:1 on Elf side or dash into Marsh side to skip Scum battles on Marsh B2.  I'm pretty sure I mostly used the latter.  
- Run 17:2
- Fight 18:4 (1-2 Ogres)
- Run 19:5 (Marsh territory)
- Fight 20:7 (Mucks) in cave (you can use at least 1 lit here)
- Short Sword
- My notes are bad again but you can take battle 21:4 on B2 I believe, skipping ghouls on B1
- Grab Bracelet, Iron armor, and house on B3.  Need a small amount of luck running from scorpions.
- Fight Wizards.  Should have earned level 5 along the way.  My strategy changed a lot and it is somewhat dependant on how the shopping went and what the party/heal situation is.  I think my preferred strategy was Fight - Fight - Lit - Fog (1st fighter), then always fighting with the fighters and using lit, fog, cure/heal, or ice with the reds as appropriate.  It's a good idea to have exact numbers in your head for this fight; sometimes lit, ice, or even fir can be a guaranteed 1 hit kill on the second round, that sort of thing.

Astos
- House when needed.  Can be anytime after leaving Marsh and before entering NW Castle really.  
- 30:4 in Marshes is ghouls and somewhat dangerous.  I think my best solution was to back-row a fighter and the red mage with fire and to fight it out.  
- Take the Elfland side (right at split) to avoid Arachnids.  
- Blast Astos with magic

Earth Cave preparation
- Pretty sure I would run from everything.  Hit Earth Cave part 1 at level 6 and Earth Cave part 2 at level 7.  Sometimes there is an interesting dilemma whether or not to fight a couple of the 'juicy' fights to bump a previously KO'd RM up to the desired level.  It depends.  
- Wish I had the exact numbers/sequencing but we buy FIR2x2 at Elfland, NO SOFTS, sell lots of stuff raid Elfland, Coneria, and Dwarf Chests, make sure to have FIR and CUR to both reds. 
- Counterintuitively, this party is actually very cheap to outfit.  Reds can just have Chain armor and caps, and pick up Dragon/Coral Swords.  Iron everything and long swords (1500 each) to both fighters.  Have something like 10-15 pures, a few extra tents, and the rest Heals.

Earth Cave
- There is a bad undead battle on the way to Earth Cave that can be avoided by staying in the proper (Elfland monsters) zone
- Get Coral Sword in B2
- Take Battle 55 on Earth B2 near the steps to B3.  First trip Earth B3 should be battles 56-63. This narrowly escapes cocktrices on both sides.  Fight (Long) - FIght (Long) - Fight (Coral) - Fight (Dragon) vs Wizards, and you usually have two total shots of FIR2 for the two full screen undead battles.  You can usually just run from mummies.  If you only have 1 shot of FIR2 because one RDM died at some point and couldn't reasonably be brought up to level 6 before leaving Melmond, there are different strategies you can try (e.g. run, run, run, FIR2, or all out run and only use FIR2 if stuck.) 
- Get Rod
- Run from Tigers (69:6) in Tunnel to avoid 73:1 outside(screen full of geists/ghouls).  73:1 is taken in Titan's Tunnel on the way back to the Earth Cave

Earth Cave, second trip
- Earth B3 round 2 starting at battle 81.
- Mostly safe battles.  If you can save one shot each of Fir2 for Lich that is ideal, but not strictly necessary.  Even just one total charge of Fir2 is very helpful. 
- Switch Swords and defeat Lich Fight (Dragon) - Fight (Coral) - Fir2/Fir - Fir2/Fir
- Avoid battle 91:1 in Melmond by getting back to the safe Elfland Monsters zone ASAP.  Elfland Zone is very common on the world map; you are still near Melmond but you have to get far enough North.  I seem to recall it being on the same row as the top of the ship dock, but make sure you experiment and know where the corner of this zone is.  Your party will be pretty damn crippled and if you get this wrong, it's usually a run ender.  As long as you can get back to Melmond and Inn you should be safe, even if you only have 1-2 party members alive.
- Head to Crescent Lake.  Battle 95 should be roughly in front of CL.

Where to go from here?  Well to be honest, while working on this route I had planned to take the usual path to Ordeals then Ice Cave, mostly following Winkwonle's path with appropriate adjustments for my party.  As it turns out, an underleveled red mage at this level isn't as effective as farming Zombie Ds as the white mage is.  More importantly, for as favorable as the battles are in the Marsh and Earth cave segments, it is pretty damn brutal to go through CoO at this stage in the encounter table.  You have to take on a lot of risk in running or count through quite a few battles.  With how solid the strat is through the Earth Cave, I think the former is the better option.

There is one other strategy you might want to try.  Quite honestly, I am not sure how competitive this leveling strategy is from a timing standpoint.  I really didn't get that far in the planning.  The game through the Earth Cave is a minority of the game but it is so, so important.  That is what I spent the majority of the time on.  So, with that disclaimer out of the way...

Go to the PNEOP!  At this point in the game... really?

Here is roughly how you do it:

- Buy 4 houses at CL
- Sell Dragon and Coral Swords
- Buy Silver Sword and Silver Axe (I settled on this combination as the Axe is more immediately useful, but the Sword has hand-me-down usefulness and depending on your exact strategy you might eventually give it back to the fighter when it gets 3 hit threshold)
- Not really sure what I bought, perhaps a couple cabins?, maybe a piece of silver armor or two if I could afford it, but towards the end when I was really cutting corners and dashing, I don't think I was buying any armor.  Not sure.
-  Sail north then around the panhandle to get to PNEOP from the otherwise never used dock near Pravoka
- Take battle 100 on land heading to PNEOP
- Fight battles 101-110 (All Giants or Troll/Zombull).  Strategy is basically Fight (Silver Axe) - Fight (Silver Sword) - Fir2/Ice/Fire/Attack - Fir2/Ice/Fire/Attack.  At one point I sold the Long Swords as well but I think it's better to keep them and use Long Swords as secondary attack once Reds hit level 9 for 2 hit threshold.  Use Ice/Fir as secondary attack until then.  Use Houses when out of Fir2, Cabin when hit points are low, and Cure between battles to heal minor damage.  Only use 3 houses at PNEOP, saving one for CoO.  This is actually a very safe strategy.  It is the timing issue I'm not sure about.

- Interestingly enough, you can walk/canoe to Ice Cave but that doesn't work out so well (neither does going by Ship)  
- Best is to head to CoO.  I seem to remember heading NW through the ocean was the fastest route. 
- Enter CoO for battle 115.  Mummies, Zombulls, Zombulls on 2F and Mummies, Mummies on 3F.  There are lots of possible ways to grind out XP to get Warp.  Some combination of fighting, Zombie Ds, Agamas (FFR), or Eyes.
- Mass shopping at Elfland afterwards
- There are safe paths through Ice cave as well.  Eye farming is doable but considerably more risky (both the Eye farming itself and the extra steps.)  Agama farming is another option.  One possible strategy is to kill off 1 red mage and use Ice/Flame/Silver swords, not using Zeus at all here, and only sparingly using the heal staff.  Like I said though, this part of this game was significantly less refined than the strategy through the Earth cave.

There are a lot more intricacies to this route.  I am actually curious to see how well it holds up after watching Feasel's run and starting to play the game again myself.  I hope it holds up well anyway as I tend to think it mitigates a lot of the disadvantages of the FFRR party with undeads in and around the Earth Cave being the biggest one.

djm858

Edit history:

djm858: 2014-02-04 10:37:52 am

2014-02-04 10:34:46 am

I want to revive this thread with an RTA route I've been working on that combines a bit of routing from a lot of different runs I've seen, including Feasel's 3:40:00 SS and the Japan 3:32:06 RTA record (by our timing). I had originally done a lot of work on my emulator but when my NES and cart came in it started on battle #2 instead of #1 and allowed one more step before the first encounter after a hard reset. Then I had to completely reroute it all on console (curse the one save file), but I'm finally having success with the route. Here's a 3:34:39 I just completed that even includes a costly death against Zombie D's in Castle of Ordeals that I had to go off course and revive which then made me get into a few encounters that I normally skip. A good run should net sub-3:30:00. That being said I'm pretty conservative in places, mainly Agama grinding, and feel I could cut more time when I'm ready to do some riskier runs. Here's the video and a quick highlight:

http://www.twitch.tv/djm858/c/3665282

Overview:
I grind OGREs and KYZOKUs early on for gold and XP. I want to hit lvl5 before entering Marsh Cave and raise funds for armor, tents, potions.
Tents allow me to skip unwanted overworld battles and Hard Resetting at certain points with them allow for safe passage through dungeons.
I just want lvl6 on Reds for first Earth Cave pass, and lvl7 for second. I don't stop in Melmond for equipment nor do I get Silver goods in Crescent Lake.
Ordeals I have to step on the Nightmare tile twice to avoid a nasty R.Goyle group just before Zombie D's, so no time loss for the "extra" encounter.
Gurgu Volcano just after Ice Cave for Agama grinding. I pick up the Flame shield and Ice Sword beforehand.
Agama grind to lvl 16 for Reds for 2 Warp charges each. Though I see I could go for lvl15 and have enough Warps for Waterfall and Sunken Shrine if I stop at the Onrac Inn. Potential time saver, need to make sure I get enough gold still though.
I stop in Cardia Islands to get the rest of the cash I need.
I only have enough to purchase 3 ProRings. Not really a big deal because there's not too many death elemental OHKOs to worry about. (I did lose a Fighter in ToF to Mages but I'm not worried about that as I'll start moving him to the back ranks for those two battles so he'll likely not be targeted).
My last hard reset occurs on the trek to Lefeim that sets up a Warmech-less Sky Fortress, no Gas D's or Sorcerers in ToF, and a GrMedusa fight before Lich2 to stone my Reds. All this with VERY minimal step wasting.
I skip the Bane sword though I may pick it up if it will eliminate the wasted steps, could potentially save minutes in certain boss fights.

Feel free to rip through this and give me any time-saving ideas to test out. I'm gonna keep with this relatively safe route until I sub-3:30 then I'll start trying to cut more corners. Thanks!

I want to revive this thread with an RTA route I've been working on that combines a bit of routing from a lot of different runs I've seen, including Feasel's 3:40:00 SS and the Japan 3:32:06 RTA record (by our timing).  I had originally done a lot of work on my emulator but when my NES and cart came in it started on battle #2 instead of #1 and allowed one more step before the first encounter after a hard reset.  Then I had to completely reroute it all on console (curse the one save file), but I'm finally having success with the route.  Here's a 3:34:39 I just completed that even includes a costly death against Zombie D's in Castle of Ordeals that I had to go off course and revive which then made me get into a few encounters that I normally skip.  A good run should net sub-3:30:00.  That being said I'm pretty conservative in places, mainly Agama grinding, and feel I could cut more time when I'm ready to do some riskier runs.  Here's the video and a quick highlight:

http://www.twitch.tv/djm858/c/3665282

Overview:
I grind OGREs and KYZOKUs early on for gold and XP.  I want to hit lvl5 before entering Marsh Cave and raise funds for armor, tents, potions.
Tents allow me to skip unwanted overworld battles and Hard Resetting at certain points with them allow for safe passage through dungeons.
I just want lvl6 on Reds for first Earth Cave pass, and lvl7 for second.  I don't stop in Melmond for equipment nor do I get Silver goods in Crescent Lake.
Ordeals I have to step on the Nightmare tile twice to avoid a nasty R.Goyle group just before Zombie D's, so no time loss for the "extra" encounter.
Gurgu Volcano just after Ice Cave for Agama grinding.  I pick up the Flame shield and Ice Sword beforehand.
Agama grind to lvl 16 for Reds for 2 Warp charges each.  Though I see I could go for lvl15 and have enough Warps for Waterfall and Sunken Shrine if I stop at the Onrac Inn.  Potential time saver, need to make sure I get enough gold still though.
I stop in Cardia Islands to get the rest of the cash I need.
I only have enough to purchase 3 ProRings.  Not really a big deal because there's not too many death elemental OHKOs to worry about. (I did lose a Fighter in ToF to Mages but I'm not worried about that as I'll start moving him to the back ranks for those two battles so he'll likely not be targeted).
My last hard reset occurs on the trek to Lefeim that sets up a Warmech-less Sky Fortress, no Gas D's or Sorcerers in ToF, and a GrMedusa fight before Lich2 to stone my Reds.  All this with VERY minimal step wasting.
I skip the Bane sword though I may pick it up if it will eliminate the wasted steps, could potentially save minutes in certain boss fights.

Feel free to rip through this and give me any time-saving ideas to test out.  I'm gonna keep with this relatively safe route until I sub-3:30 then I'll start trying to cut more corners.  Thanks!

gyre

Edit history:

gyre: 2014-02-05 12:28:26 am

2014-02-05 12:21:25 am

I only caught the end of the run live but I've started going back to watch pieces as I have time. I really liked a lot of the route. My NES has the same initial encounter as yours but unfortunately yet another different initial step count so it's going to be hard to steal your strats.

Since you mentioned the ProRings one idea was to grab the one on 1F Floating Castle. You have to waste steps to avoid WarMECH anyways so getting it may cost no or little time. That could either make ToF easier or save having to loot the Cardia chests. I'd get that pickup before worrying about Bane strats. You can also get a Heal Helmet in the same room there rather than Mirage Tower if you want to move encounters around.