Final Fantasy 1 - Segmented (Run Submitted!)

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2008-01-31 12:21:39 am

2008-01-30 09:29:41 pm

I fiddled around with the NES version today and thought of a few things.

1. How practical is killing off a character to distribute XP? You could kill off one or two of your fighters to get higher levels later in the game on your others.
~~2. Would it do anything for the fights in the game to buy TMPR? Red Scarlet used TMPR in her 4:55 run to increase attack stats, and you can buy in Pravoka. Would it throw your GP out of whack?~~
3. Call me batshit crazy, but when I attempted to finish the NES version like 5 years ago (before I finished the PlayStation version instead) I noticed that it was borderline impossible to run away from stuff, even early in the game. When I played the game today, I had a party of Thief, Fighter, Fighter, Red Mage, in that order. When I put a thief in my party, chances of escape increased drastically. Killing off the thief in the Garland fight allowed me to escape everything just as fast. I take it the thief's quick escape ability continues to work, even while he's dead? =p

EDIT: Oh damn, I feel really stupid now. Temper doesn't even work in the NES version. WTG, Square =[

I fiddled around with the NES version today and thought of a few things.

1. How practical is killing off a character to distribute XP? You could kill off one or two of your fighters to get higher levels later in the game on your others.
[s]2. Would it do anything for the fights in the game to buy TMPR? Red Scarlet used TMPR in her 4:55 run to increase attack stats, and you can buy in Pravoka. Would it throw your GP out of whack?[/s]
3. Call me batshit crazy, but when I attempted to finish the NES version like 5 years ago (before I finished the PlayStation version instead) I noticed that it was borderline impossible to run away from stuff, even early in the game. When I played the game today, I had a party of Thief, Fighter, Fighter, Red Mage, in that order. When I put a thief in my party, chances of escape increased drastically. Killing off the thief in the Garland fight allowed me to escape everything just as fast. I take it the thief's quick escape ability continues to work, even while he's dead? =p

EDIT: Oh damn, I feel really stupid now. Temper doesn't even work in the NES version. WTG, Square =[

WarMech

2008-02-02 07:18:40 pm

Problem solved???

After spending the last four days trying to recreate my situation in the previous run, here's what I came up with.

Fighter 1: HP -2
Fighter 2: HP +1
Fighter 3: HP +1 Luck -1
Red Mage: HP +1

*In short, the net change of my team's overall statistics is +1 HP and -1 Luck. Everything else is identical to the previous run. Strength (damage rating) and Agility (evade rating) are identical for all 4 characters. All other factors such as gold, weapons, armor, and items are the same as well.

Although it may seem like these are large changes, it look me 5 run throughs and 50 or level ups to get the stats as close as they are. In fact, it amazed me the variation between characters on any level up and would strongly consider manipulating these variables to a greater extent in a future run. I had no idea how much each level up really varied. As Snorlax mentioned, there is no way to verify these numbers since I didn't view the status screen in the run, but rest assured I made it a priority to make sure Strength and Agility were the same because that would probably have a much greater effect on the run than an extra HP. Wink

Carcinogen:
1) Good question and I'm glad you brought it up. The reason I choose not to kill any of my characters at any point in the run is because of what they call in economics the law of diminishing marginal returns. Throughout the run I try to maximize my "benefits," namely experience, weapons/armor, and gold while minimizing my "costs," time. Killing off a character is impractical for achieving this at any point in the game. For example early in the run when I'm trying to get my Red Mage to learn Fire 2, I kill 4 zombulls in four segments. If I killed off a character, I could get the desired effect in 3 battles (25% fewer fights), but it would take me longer (30% more time per battle) because I would be short a fighter who do the majority of the damage. Also, I would be short 1000 gold for a silver sword that helps later battles. Later in the game when I'm fighting all those EYEs, the same reasoning applies. I could accomplish the desired effect in fewer batters, but each battle would take longer; if I did fight the same number of battles, it would only help my other characters by one level but make the killed off character obsolete for the remainder of the game (3 Orbs and ToFR) and I'm left a weaker overall party because those later levels require more additional experience for smaller additional changes to my party. I just don't think I can justify killing off someone because of longer power-leveling battles and/or the weaker overall party. If I could manipulate luck as well as the TAS, it would make all the sense in the world to do so 8)

2) Yup, TMPR would be a huge time saver, but it has no effect in the NES version. :-/

3) Luck works very strangely in the NES version as well. The characters in first two positions in your party have a substantially higher probability of running than the last two. Since the thief can't take a hit, I would have to put him in the third spot (4th spot if he's dead) which makes his chances of running no better than the fighters in the first two spots. The thief (and black belt) are just way too weak at low levels to belong in a speedrun IMO. Also, if my party ever has any real problems running in a segment, my RESET button takes the place of a thief. People with decent knowledge of the game will understand the amount of luck manipulation that goes into running in battle as successfully as I do.

-WarMech

Problem solved???

After spending the last four days trying to recreate my situation in the previous run, here's what I came up with.

Fighter 1: HP -2 
Fighter 2: HP +1
Fighter 3: HP +1 Luck -1
Red Mage: HP +1

*In short, the net change of my team's overall statistics is +1 HP and -1 Luck.  Everything else is identical to the previous run.  Strength (damage rating) and Agility (evade rating) are identical for all 4 characters.  All other factors such as gold, weapons, armor, and items are the same as well.

Although it may seem like these are large changes, it look me 5 run throughs and 50 or level ups to get the stats as close as they are.  In fact, it amazed me the variation between characters on any level up and would strongly consider manipulating these variables to a greater extent in a future run.  I had no idea how much each level up really varied.  As Snorlax mentioned, there is no way to verify these numbers since I didn't view the status screen in the run, but rest assured I made it a priority to make sure Strength and Agility were the same because that would probably have a much greater effect on the run than an extra HP.  ;)

Carcinogen: 
1) Good question and I'm glad you brought it up.  The reason I choose not to kill any of my characters at any point in the run is because of what they call in economics the law of diminishing marginal returns.  Throughout the run I try to maximize my "benefits," namely experience, weapons/armor, and gold while minimizing my "costs," time.  Killing off a character is impractical for achieving this at any point in the game.  For example early in the run when I'm trying to get my Red Mage to learn Fire 2, I kill 4 zombulls in four segments.  If I killed off a character, I could get the desired effect in 3 battles (25% fewer fights), but it would take me longer (30% more time per battle) because I would be short a fighter who do the majority of the damage.  Also, I would be short 1000 gold for a silver sword that helps later battles.  Later in the game when I'm fighting all those EYEs, the same reasoning applies.  I could accomplish the desired effect in fewer batters, but each battle would take longer; if I did fight the same number of battles, it would only help my other characters by one level but make the killed off character obsolete for the remainder of the game (3 Orbs and ToFR) and I'm left a weaker overall party because those later levels require more additional experience for smaller additional changes to my party.  I just don't think I can justify killing off someone because of longer power-leveling battles and/or the weaker overall party.  If I could manipulate luck as well as the TAS, it would make all the sense in the world to do so  8)

2) Yup, TMPR would be a huge time saver, but it has no effect in the NES version.   :-/

3) Luck works very strangely in the NES version as well.  The characters in first two positions in your party have a substantially higher probability of running than the last two.  Since the thief can't take a hit, I would have to put him in the third spot (4th spot if he's dead) which makes his chances of running no better than the fighters in the first two spots.  The thief (and black belt) are just way too weak at low levels to belong in a speedrun IMO.  Also, if my party ever has any real problems running in a segment, my RESET button takes the place of a thief.  People with decent knowledge of the game will understand the amount of luck manipulation that goes into running in battle as successfully as I do.

-WarMech

Enhasa

2008-02-02 08:03:02 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I agree with WarMech and he has good, thoughtful answers.

There is also a bug IIRC that caps running so that at some point the thief actually gets equalled (in running ability) by say, the fighter. Along with the fact that positions matter when it comes to running, I think there's also another bug that makes the running for some characters erroneously check the value of another character.

I wish I remembered these more in detail, but hopefully I'm not just making this up. Tongue

Yeah, manipulating levelups is the final frontier. It's just that in addition to having everything go perfectly from a time perspective and so forth, having to then reset because the stat gains could be better is borderline ridiculous. For better or worse, now you are highly cognizant of this for the rest of the run.

About FF1 and killing your guys off intentionally, I agree with you. But actually in theory (because it depends on the game), it isn't hard to come up with a situation where it can be better.

Oh and along with what WarMech is saying (diminishing marginal returns in gaining levels means that say, 5 5 5 5 is better than 6 6 6 3), there's also the fact that you get diminishing returns on stats for each extra level. Since you gain constant range of stats in every game I can think of, the difference between level 4 to 5 is way bigger than the one between 14 to 15.

Finally, a public service announcement:

Please change your battery if you have not done so! Otherwise you are only setting yourself up for future suffering. Sad

I agree with WarMech and he has good, thoughtful answers.

There is also a bug IIRC that caps running so that at some point the thief actually gets equalled (in running ability) by say, the fighter. Along with the fact that positions matter when it comes to running, I think there's also another bug that makes the running for some characters erroneously check the value of another character.

I wish I remembered these more in detail, but hopefully I'm not just making this up. :P

Yeah, manipulating levelups is the final frontier. It's just that in addition to having everything go perfectly from a time perspective and so forth, having to then reset because the stat gains could be better is borderline ridiculous. For better or worse, now you are highly cognizant of this for the rest of the run.

About FF1 and killing your guys off intentionally, I agree with you. But actually in theory (because it depends on the game), it isn't hard to come up with a situation where it can be better.

Oh and along with what WarMech is saying (diminishing marginal returns in gaining levels means that say, 5 5 5 5 is better than 6 6 6 3), there's also the fact that you get diminishing returns on stats for each extra level. Since you gain constant range of stats in every game I can think of, the difference between level 4 to 5 is way bigger than the one between 14 to 15.

Finally, a public service announcement:

Please change your battery if you have not done so! Otherwise you are only setting yourself up for future suffering. :(

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2008-02-02 09:00:16 pm

2008-02-02 08:57:39 pm

Makes sense =p

Would explain why they didn't do it in the 1:22 on the GBA version either. I do have to wonder though, would the Bane trick work on the GBA version? I wouldn't dare try it though, considering it'd take YEARS to kill a boss.

WarMech

2008-02-06 07:11:55 pm

I'm happy to announce that I'm once again recording the run. You all have been too patient and kind in helping me through my inadequacies and technological ineptness, but thanks anyway. Although I won't reveal the details of any of the segments just yet, I can say with certainty that Segment 13 (the Marsh Cave) which I recorded just now is the best one yet. Speedrunning has been a test of my patience to say the least, but I never thought I would have this much fun doing it! Grin

WarMech

iamfanboy

Edit history:

iamfanboy: 2008-02-12 05:59:31 am

2008-02-12 05:56:15 am

I'm in your FF save, spanking Yuffie.

Warmech: when it comes to leveling on the Eye watch out: you aren't immune to everything he does with just the ProRing. He could derail your plans and uneven your members' Exp by turning one of your members to stone. Better prep by buying a Soft or two in Elf Town.

Or would you just restart the segment if a disaster like that happened? Might be for the best. :x

Carcinogen

2008-02-12 06:29:13 am

Well, since he's going to level off of the Evil Eyes in one segment, Softs might help big time.

iirc Evil Eyes don't have much HP, so killing 56 of them without getting stoned might be easier done than said.

iamfanboy

Edit history:

iamfanboy: 2008-02-12 07:04:20 am

2008-02-12 06:49:30 am

I'm in your FF save, spanking Yuffie.

I was just looking over his segments and noticing that he plans to buy STEEL Armors for his Knights after he finishes with the Eyes. Why not go to Gaea instead and buy Gold Rings? The Evasion % is much stronger, it's only 5000 more, it has the same Absorb, and he'll definitely have the cash for it.

If you're looking for a time to do it, why not just head southeast after you finish leveling, pick up the Bottle from the guy in the Oasis, head to Gaea, and get the Oxyale and the Rings, before you head into the Volcano?

Will he actually use Cure3? I'd imagine Fire3 to be far more useful for its ability to quickly wipe a mob that you can't run from, and the RW has so few casts at level 17 that you can't really alternate between healing and Fire3. I'd say one or the other; healing or quick death.

EDIT: Sorry, STEEL armors. :x

WarMech

2008-02-12 09:45:52 pm

Well, I got around to recording three more solid segments today that have eliminated another minute off the total time. I think when I originally predicted the target times I didn't realize how much of a perfectionist I was going to be and over-estimated some of the longer segments that required a lot of fighting.

iamfanboy: Yup, I do indeed buy 3 softs on my trip to Pravoka in Segment 21 when I'm done killing Zombulls for just that reason. I've never been turned to stone more than 3 times in the EYE segment and am usually left over with an extra one just in case I get hit later in the game.

Also, I think you might be mistaken with those gold bracelets. They only have an absorb rating +24 while the Steel Armor is +34. This really helps me take a hit from Kraken, Tiamat, and Chaos each of whom can kill my characters in one hit without the armor. The extra evade might be nice, but I don't think I can risk getting wiped out since chances are I won't avoid the attack anyway

The Fire3 dilemma is one I've been having throughout the run because I'd really like to have all four of the spells (Cure3, Fire3, Warp, and Bane) but sadly I can't. I chose Cure3 because it allows my Red Mage to do something useful in the fight against Chaos if the character with the Masmune is near death. However, I know that Fire3 could save 30 seconds to 1 minute if I run into some Frost Dragons, Earths, Sorcerers, or other inescapable fights in the last castle. After giving it a second though, I think I'll take your advice and go with Fire3 and hope to God that Chaos doesn't punish my 3rd fighter for it. Roll Eyes

WarMech

Well, I got around to recording three more solid segments today that have eliminated another minute off the total time.  I think when I originally predicted the target times I didn't realize how much of a perfectionist I was going to be and over-estimated some of the longer segments that required a lot of fighting.

iamfanboy:  Yup, I do indeed buy 3 softs on my trip to Pravoka in Segment 21 when I'm done killing Zombulls for just that reason.  I've never been turned to stone more than 3 times in the EYE segment and am usually left over with an extra one just in case I get hit later in the game.

Also, I think you might be mistaken with those gold bracelets.  They only have an absorb rating +24 while the Steel Armor is +34.  This really helps me take a hit from Kraken, Tiamat, and Chaos each of whom can kill my characters in one hit without the armor.  The extra evade might be nice, but I don't think I can risk getting wiped out since chances are I won't avoid the attack anyway

The Fire3 dilemma is one I've been having throughout the run because I'd really like to have all four of the spells (Cure3, Fire3, Warp, and Bane) but sadly I can't.  I chose Cure3 because it allows my Red Mage to do something useful in the fight against Chaos if the character with the Masmune is near death.  However, I know that Fire3 could save 30 seconds to 1 minute if I run into some Frost Dragons, Earths, Sorcerers, or other inescapable fights in the last castle.  After giving it a second though, I think I'll take your advice and go with Fire3 and hope to God that Chaos doesn't punish my 3rd fighter for it.  ::)

WarMech

iamfanboy

Edit history:

iamfanboy: 2008-02-13 10:09:54 am

2008-02-13 09:42:10 am

I'm in your FF save, spanking Yuffie.

Bloody hell. Serves me right for trusting an FAQ I KNEW had errors in it, instead of looking at that webpage - said the Gold Rings had Absorb 34.

I'm tentatively following your path on an emulator, and I just beat Tiamat - an unpleasant surprise is that at level 19 my Knights with a Sun Sword and Defense Sword only dealt between 40-80 damage even with Fast. It would probably be faster speed-wise to miss out on Cure3 and get Bane instead, pick up the Bane Sword, and have double the chances of offing him in 3 rounds - dealing damage straight up to kill him would be too slow and risky at that level. (My Knight with a Ice Sword and Fast was only dealing 25 with Fast AND a Critical hit, fer Crissakes!)

Speed > All else. You don't want to be fighting Tiamat for 10 rounds, and you can restart if the doubled Banes don't kill him quick. Going up the tower isn't THAT hard.

I haven't used Cure3 yet in my playthrough. Either I run from things or kill them fast enough that it hasn't affected me. I'm not looking forward to that Chaos fight, though...

I might actually... give up Fire3, to be honest. The Thor Hammer, Zeus Gauntlet, and Black Shirt give plenty of crowd-sweeping power.

THen again, if Chaos molests the Masamune user too badly, one could always just abandon the segment rather than trying to Cure3 him... Huh, rough thoughts.

Bloody hell. Serves me right for trusting an FAQ I KNEW had errors in it, instead of looking at that webpage - said the Gold Rings had Absorb 34.

I'm tentatively following your path on an emulator, and I just beat Tiamat - an unpleasant surprise is that at level 19 my Knights with a Sun Sword and Defense Sword only dealt between 40-80 damage [i]even with Fast[/i]. It would probably be faster speed-wise to miss out on Cure3 and get Bane instead, pick up the Bane Sword, and have double the chances of offing him in 3 rounds - dealing damage straight up to kill him would be too slow and risky at that level.  (My Knight with a Ice Sword and Fast was only dealing 25 with Fast AND a Critical hit, fer Crissakes!)

Speed > All else. You don't want to be fighting Tiamat for 10 rounds, and you can restart if the doubled Banes don't kill him quick. Going up the tower isn't THAT hard.

I haven't used Cure3 yet in my playthrough. Either I run from things or kill them fast enough that it hasn't affected me. I'm not looking forward to that Chaos fight, though...

I might actually... give up Fire3, to be honest. The Thor Hammer, Zeus Gauntlet, and Black Shirt give plenty of crowd-sweeping power.

THen again, if Chaos molests the Masamune user too badly, one could always just abandon the segment rather than trying to Cure3 him... Huh, rough thoughts.

Enhasa

2008-02-13 06:33:32 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

You don't want to be fighting Tiamat for 10 rounds, and you can restart if the doubled Banes don't kill him quick.

Well he's restarting if single Bane doesn't her quick. (And yes, Tiamat is female, but I don't remember if they specify in any FF. :P)

I'm liking the Fire 3 idea actually.

Marty81

2008-02-13 07:38:18 pm

I don't have much to add in the way of constructive advice, but I'm glad to hear you're back in the game, and I'm eagerly awaiting your finished run. This is my most anticipated run in a long time, so keep up the good work Smiley

I do have one question, though - why level on the Eye? I'm not super-knowledgeable about gameplay mechanics, so do you need the extra levels so that you can run from certain enemies, or for the extra hits, or for extra spell charges or what?

Enhasa

2008-02-13 07:50:25 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Basically it's just way ahead of its time (really the best location in the game) to level and you can make up the time you spend leveling easily. It's the same idea as the peninsula of power (or whatever it's called) from earlier really.

The best advantage about the Eye (other than having low HP and giving tons of exp) is that you can just walk over his square and fight him over and over again so quickly. People usually underestimate how long the walking around waiting for another fight takes when it comes to leveling. Which is why in games like Lufia or DQ where you can attract enemies, people do that.

Marty81

2008-02-13 07:52:38 pm

Oh sure, if he wants to level mid-late game, that's definitely the best place. I'm just curious why he needs those levels. I'm pretty sure I beat the game once around level 14.

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2008-02-13 08:02:52 pm

2008-02-13 08:01:41 pm

It'd be faster and easier than scrounging up the equipment to protect your party enough to do it at lower levels, I'm guessing.

Does Evil Eye levelling work in the PSX and GBA versions of the game?

WarMech

Edit history:

WarMech: 2008-02-14 12:23:41 am

2008-02-14 12:18:44 am

iamfanboy: Yup. As it turns out, I do get Warp, Bane, and Cure3/Fire3 for my Red Mage as his three level five spells. I too found that the damage that I do against Tiamat is pretty atrocious, so a nice Bane cuts that fight down by 1 - 1.5 minutes. I'll have two chances to get the Bane to work, so hopefully it doesn't result in too many resets. Bane seems to have about a 1/4 chance of working on Tiamat 1 from what I've observed in my test runs... it's probably worth it. And the Cure3 was indeed for Chaos if things get rough though, but I'm pretty much sold on Fire3.

Marty81: Enhasa described it best; the EYE is simply the most "cost-effective" enemy to kill in the game. Here are the advantages:

1) It gives massive amount of XP and Gold "per hit point" in the entire game. Even though they require encounters than say a T-Rex might, the battles are often over in a single round or even a single hit.

2) I can run into them every other step so there is virtually no waiting time in between battles, and I can get all my power-leveling done in one sitting.

3) Other than stone, they have no attacks that hurt me so there is no healing time and no lengthy attack animations.

- The only disadvantage is that it takes a while to get there, but I'm almost 100% sure that I more than make up for this time with such quick battles. I can kill 54 of them in 24 minutes including travel time whereas most of my individual segmented battles take over a minute apiece.

And yes, this leveling is necessary to complete the game. Without it, I would enter the Temple of Fiends Revisited at level 11, and that would never work even if by some miracle I got all the orbs. It is indeed possible to beat the game at level 14, but all those boss battles would just take agonizingly long to complete. ToFR will probably take 300-400 resets as it is, so I really don't feel like making it even harder for myself. I like level 17 because my fighters and mage finally have a bit of magic, do a reasonable amount of damage to the fiends, and can survive a Nuke or a hit from Kraken2/Chaos without dying. The 10 minutes I would save in leveling would end up costing me 20-30 in the last few segments of the game because I'm so weak.

Carcinogen: I think it does, but I can't say for sure. The EYE is programmed to be directly in front of the Floater in the ice cave even if you kill it over and over, and considering they didn't even change the PoP "glitch" I don't think that would be any different.

Thanks for this input everyone!

iamfanboy:  Yup.  As it turns out, I do get Warp, Bane, and Cure3/Fire3 for my Red Mage as his three level five spells.  I too found that the damage that I do against Tiamat is pretty atrocious, so a nice Bane cuts that fight down by 1 - 1.5 minutes.  I'll have two chances to get the Bane to work, so hopefully it doesn't result in too many resets.  Bane seems to have about a 1/4 chance of working on Tiamat 1 from what I've observed in my test runs... it's probably worth it.  And the Cure3 was indeed for Chaos if things get rough though, but I'm pretty much sold on Fire3.

Marty81:  Enhasa described it best; the EYE is simply the most "cost-effective" enemy to kill in the game.  Here are the advantages:

1) It gives massive amount of XP and Gold "per hit point" in the entire game.  Even though they require encounters than say a T-Rex might, the battles are often over in a single round or even a single hit.

2) I can run into them every other step so there is virtually no waiting time in between battles, and I can get all my power-leveling done in one sitting.

3) Other than stone, they have no attacks that hurt me so there is no healing time and no lengthy attack animations.

- The only disadvantage is that it takes a while to get there, but I'm almost 100% sure that I more than make up for this time with such quick battles.  I can kill 54 of them in 24 minutes including travel time whereas most of my individual segmented battles take over a minute apiece.

And yes, this leveling is necessary to complete the game.  Without it, I would enter the Temple of Fiends Revisited at level 11, and that would never work even if by some miracle I got all the orbs.  It is indeed possible to beat the game at level 14, but all those boss battles would just take agonizingly long to complete.  ToFR will probably take 300-400 resets as it is, so I really don't feel like making it even harder for myself.  I like level 17 because my fighters and mage finally have a bit of magic, do a reasonable amount of damage to the fiends, and can survive a Nuke or a hit from Kraken2/Chaos without dying.  The 10 minutes I would save in leveling would end up costing me 20-30 in the last few segments of the game because I'm so weak.

Carcinogen: I think it does, but I can't say for sure.  The EYE is programmed to be directly in front of the Floater in the ice cave even if you kill it over and over, and considering they didn't even change the PoP "glitch" I don't think that would be any different.

Thanks for this input everyone!

iamfanboy

Edit history:

iamfanboy: 2008-02-14 12:56:19 am

2008-02-14 12:50:26 am

I'm in your FF save, spanking Yuffie.

I'm diving into the Temple of Fiends Revisited today (right now, in fact) so I'll be able to see how necessary Cure3 is.

I think that the choice of 5th levels spells IS the linchpin to the speed run. Warp lets you avoid walk times in the Waterfall, Water Temple, picking up the Masmune, and maybe even the Bane Sword. Cure3 lets you recover from a brutal hit. Fire3 is the only 3 attack spell you have access to and is devastating to several mobs you can't run from. Bane cuts the battle time with Tiamat from 10 minutes to potentially one.

You know, if I were to run a competing run, or if I do the PSX version, I would probably pick 2 Fighters/2 Red Mages; the Knights would get the Xcalbur/Masmune, the Red Wizards would get the Defense/Sun Swords. That way you'd have plenty of casts for all the necessary spells, and still enough attack power to drive through the game.

Oh, gawds. The more I think about it, the more that seems like a... a... really, really good idea. Fir3/Cur3/Bane, Fir3/Warp/Bane for the spell split, maybe? The only annoyance is that you only get one Opal ring and one Procape - but if you give one RW the Procape and the other the Opal Ring, you split the defense bonus pretty evenly. Neither one will have 50 Absorb but 46 isn't bad for a Wizard.

Early game you've still got to spend a fair amount of cash on spells, but you don't have to fill up both RW's with spells until after the Eye leveling segment.

I'm diving into the Temple of Fiends Revisited today (right now, in fact) so I'll be able to see how necessary Cure3 is.

I think that the choice of 5th levels spells IS the linchpin to the speed run. Warp lets you avoid walk times in the Waterfall, Water Temple, picking up the Masmune, and maybe even the Bane Sword. Cure3 lets you recover from a brutal hit. Fire3 is the only 3 attack spell you have access to and is devastating to several mobs you can't run from. Bane cuts the battle time with Tiamat from 10 minutes to potentially one.

You know, if I were to run a competing run, or if I do the PSX version, I would probably pick 2 Fighters/2 Red Mages; the Knights would get the Xcalbur/Masmune, the Red Wizards would get the Defense/Sun Swords. That way you'd have plenty of casts for all the necessary spells, and still enough attack power to drive through the game.

Oh, gawds. The more I think about it, the more that seems like a... a... really, really good idea. Fir3/Cur3/Bane, Fir3/Warp/Bane for the spell split, maybe? The only annoyance is that you only get one Opal ring and one Procape - but if you give one RW the Procape and the other the Opal Ring, you split the defense bonus pretty evenly. Neither one will have 50 Absorb but 46 isn't bad for a Wizard.

Early game you've still got to spend a fair amount of cash on spells, but you don't have to fill up both RW's with spells until after the Eye leveling segment.

Enhasa

2008-02-14 01:03:53 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

You don't need 2 utility guys. More fighters = more better!

iamfanboy

Edit history:

iamfanboy: 2008-02-14 02:27:13 am

2008-02-14 02:26:39 am

I'm in your FF save, spanking Yuffie.

Hm. Speed is what matters. If utility guys mean faster speeds, then take it.

Well, I did just fine beating Chaos with 3 Knights/1 RW, but I noticed one important thing...

The third Knight did very, very little damage compared to the other two with the Xcalbur and Masmune. Even without Fast, the Masmune guy was dealing 250 on crits, the Xcalbur guy was dealing 150... and the Defense guy was only in the 50's on crits. With Fast, well, the numbers were higher, but the numbers were enough to make me question his overall usefulness compared to another utility guy.

Well, Warmech's started his record, so if I do anything it'll be as a competing run. I might test it, but who knows if I'll ever get around to it you know?

Carcinogen

2008-02-14 07:40:12 am

Perhaps use a Monk in place of that third Knight?

iamfanboy

2008-02-14 08:55:00 am

I'm in your FF save, spanking Yuffie.

Master = suck until you get it up to level 35+. Since we're looking at ending the game at between 18 and 20, it's rather useless....

So far, my 2FI/2RM emulator run is at the Eye leveling stage - and there've been no problems. In fact, leveling at the PoP was even easier and faster with a pair of Fir2s - no having to return to Pravoka as often for recharging after manipulating the Zombulls.

I'm gonna have to wait til the endgame to see how the game flows in comparison to my 3FI/1RM run, but it all can't be beer and skittles you know?

WarMech

2008-02-14 06:52:20 pm

Interesting idea iamfanboy and I think a little competition would be great if you have the time to run this game on console. I did throw around the idea of a 2 RM party but here were the drawbacks that I saw:

1) They are much weaker than fighters. At most points in the run, they can only take a hit or two at the very most and they are dead. At the end of the game, they are lucky if they can even take a single hit from the fiends or Chaos. The one of my Fighters that has the most HP and Agility takes the lead position and becomes a meat shield with the other two do most of the damage.

2) They suck at running in comparison to FI/BB/TI. Their lower agility and luck are about half that of the fighter and so far in my run, I can only remember one fight where my RM was actually the one to succeed in running away. In my current run, I have been able to run away in a single round or less in every battle. This may not seem like a huge setback, but the TAS shows how running away from battles ASAP can save loads of time.

3) With the exception of the 4 Zombull battles, your leveling segments will be slower because the RM does about half the damage per physical attack that the fighter does. I actually only need to make a single trip back to the INN in Pravoka, but I'm not sure that time would make up for the slower Kyzoku, 1 Zombull, and EYE battles that you would have with the fighters.

However, there probably would be some advantages too.

1) Avoiding that trip back to the Inn would be handy.

2) You would probably have better luck killing Tiamat but I reset if I don't get him... er... her in two rounds anyway.

3) The Astos and Vampire fights might be marginally quicker because of the extra Ice and Fire2 Spells.

I'm just not sure about ToFR one way or the other. Yes, having two extra Cure3/Fire3's and a few extra Fasts would be nice, but whether that would make up for having a weaker overall party physically... I dunno. If you lose one of your fighters at any point, the segments is over since I don't think you can kill Chaos fast enough with just one before he uses Cure 4. If I lose one, I have a backup after a little equipment swapping. I just don't think the Level 5 spells are THAT critical at the end of the game, but obviously, the only way to tell for sure would be to test it out and compare times on similar segments.

Here are some of the other ideas I've thrown around but I think are inferior:

FI/FI/FI/BM - You get all spells at lower levels and would have more spells (including level 6 spells) at the end of the game, but he is so incredibly weak at lower levels that I couldn't deal with it. The lack of early healing power would be a nuisance too.

FI/FI/BB/RM - Yeah, the black belts are cheap and can pack a pretty good punch, but as it turns out, they are actually weaker than the fighters at every single point in the game because I'm getting such good equipment for my fighters at low levels. You're right; they need to be at level 30+ before they start doing more damage than a fighter.

FI/FI/TH/RM - I think we already talked about this, but the thief really just sucks until the class change... and even then, he's really no better than the knights. There's no way to justify having him in your party when fighter are the second best class at running from battles anyway.

WM/WM/WM/WM - I hear this party is pretty OP too. Just kidding. I'd rather get a vasectomy then speed run a game with that shit.

WarMech

Interesting idea iamfanboy and I think a little competition would be great if you have the time to run this game on console.  I did throw around the idea of a 2 RM party but here were the drawbacks that I saw:

1)  They are much weaker than fighters.  At most points in the run, they can only take a hit or two at the very most and they are dead.  At the end of the game, they are lucky if they can even take a single hit from the fiends or Chaos.  The one of my Fighters  that has the most HP and Agility takes the lead position and becomes a meat shield with the other two do most of the damage.

2)  They suck at running in comparison to FI/BB/TI.  Their lower agility and luck are about half that of the fighter and so far in my run, I can only remember one fight where my RM was actually the one to succeed in running away.  In my current run, I have been able to run away in a single round or less in every battle.  This may not seem like a huge setback, but the TAS shows how running away from battles ASAP can save loads of time.

3)  With the exception of the 4 Zombull battles, your leveling segments will be slower because the RM does about half the damage per physical attack that the fighter does.  I actually only need to make a single trip back to the INN in Pravoka, but I'm not sure that time would make up for the slower Kyzoku, 1 Zombull, and EYE battles that you would have with the fighters.

However, there probably would be some advantages too.

1) Avoiding that trip back to the Inn would be handy.

2) You would probably have better luck killing Tiamat but I reset if I don't get him... er... her in two rounds anyway.

3) The Astos and Vampire fights might be marginally quicker because of the extra Ice and Fire2 Spells.

I'm just not sure about ToFR one way or the other.  Yes, having two extra Cure3/Fire3's and a few extra Fasts would be nice, but whether that would make up for having a weaker overall party physically... I dunno.  If you lose one of your fighters at any point, the segments is over since I don't think you can kill Chaos fast enough with just one before he uses Cure 4.  If I lose one, I have a backup after a little equipment swapping.  I just don't think the Level 5 spells are THAT critical at the end of the game, but obviously, the only way to tell for sure would be to test it out and compare times on similar segments.

Here are some of the other ideas I've thrown around but I think are inferior:

FI/FI/FI/BM - You get all spells at lower levels and would have more spells (including level 6 spells) at the end of the game, but he is so incredibly weak at lower levels that I couldn't deal with it.  The lack of early healing power would be a nuisance too.

FI/FI/BB/RM - Yeah, the black belts are cheap and can pack a pretty good punch, but as it turns out, they are actually weaker than the fighters at every single point in the game because I'm getting such good equipment for my fighters at low levels.  You're right; they need to be at level 30+ before they start doing more damage than a fighter.

FI/FI/TH/RM - I think we already talked about this, but the thief really just sucks until the class change...  and even then, he's really no better than the knights.  There's no way to justify having him in your party when fighter are the second best class at running from battles anyway.

WM/WM/WM/WM - I hear this party is pretty OP too.  Just kidding.  I'd rather get a vasectomy then speed run a game with that shit.

WarMech

iamfanboy

2008-02-14 07:27:58 pm

I'm in your FF save, spanking Yuffie.

Heh, vasectomy...

Well, like I said, I'm mostly just curious at this point if it would be faster or not with more utility spells. The 3FI/1RM party was brutally fast at tearing the game apart; then again, I DID level up halfway to 19 before ending my leveling segment and I was 20 at Chaos - took me about 9 tries to beat him. I think that the ToF Revisited is the roughest part, NOT the Ice Cave - if any of your members die, the run's done. Lich stalled me once with a lucky Nuke, Kraken crit-killed my RW, Tiamat nailed me FOUR times with Bane, and Chaos was... hard. That's a lot of potential run-enders for only one segment.

Truth be told, the KNIGHTS can only survive one or two hits at that level in the end-game. I did use one as a meat-shield while the other two went to town with Xcalbur/Masmune; the meat-shield was casting AFIR and using the White armor.

You're right about the Kyzoku and single Zombull fights; I was having the RM paired with a FI to kill them - and maybe it was just my luck, but I kept missing while I was still using Rapiers. I've had no trouble at all running away from any early fights except Wolf ones - those are always a bitch. Strangely enough, thanks to the random stats, one of my RM's was the first to hit the magical 15 Luck (at only level 11 no less!) and I put him in the 2nd position for a while to take advantage.

If I were to do a run, it'd be on the PSX version, not the NES, I think. Wildly separate game, so it deserves its own run; besides, I LIKE the idea of Temper actually being freakin' useful. Too bad I wouldn't be able to manipulate Zombulls on that version.. ugh.

Heh, vasectomy...

Well, like I said, I'm mostly just curious at this point if it would be faster or not with more utility spells. The 3FI/1RM party was brutally fast at tearing the game apart; then again, I DID level up halfway to 19 before ending my leveling segment and I was 20 at Chaos - took me about 9 tries to beat him. I think that the ToF Revisited is the roughest part, NOT the Ice Cave - if any of your members die, the run's done. Lich stalled me once with a lucky Nuke, Kraken crit-killed my RW, Tiamat nailed me FOUR times with Bane, and Chaos was... hard. That's a lot of potential run-enders for only one segment.

Truth be told, the [i]KNIGHTS[/i] can only survive one or two hits at that level in the end-game. I did use one as a meat-shield while the other two went to town with Xcalbur/Masmune; the meat-shield was casting AFIR and using the White armor.

You're right about the Kyzoku and single Zombull fights; I was having the RM paired with a FI to kill them - and maybe it was just my luck, but I kept missing while I was still using Rapiers. I've had no trouble at all running away from any early fights except Wolf ones - those are always a bitch. Strangely enough, thanks to the random stats, one of my RM's was the first to hit the magical 15 Luck (at only level 11 no less!) and I put him in the 2nd position for a while to take advantage.

If I were to do a run, it'd be on the PSX version, not the NES, I think. Wildly separate game, so it deserves its own run; besides, I LIKE the idea of Temper actually being freakin' useful. Too bad I wouldn't be able to manipulate Zombulls on that version.. ugh.

WarMech

Edit history:

WarMech: 2008-02-15 12:52:31 am

2008-02-15 12:45:55 am

UPDATE: Ooops, I did it again.

This time it wasn't the fault of the battery, the cartridge, the VCR or any of it, but rather my own fucking inadequacies. I began recording tonight and recorded a fantastic Segment 17, took a break, and then began working on Segment 18. I thought I recorded one of the best segments yet, and after I returned to the Inn to save it, I realized that I had forgot to hit record. As you well know, FF1 does not allow for multiple save files so the one I have is the only one, and the recording is now a segment short. After working on this run for a year and a half, I think I am going to postpone the run and take a break until I have time this summer to buy a DVD recorder and record the run again from scratch. It would be vertually impossible to recreate the situation I'm in again, and to be honest, it wouldn't be fair to the verifiers to allow three separate run-throughs in a single recording... or to allow both the mess-up I had earlier AND a missing segment (even though it was only a minute and a half). I very sorry to disappoint everyone who was anticipating this run, but sadly, I just don't think there's anyway a new one can be finished by May. I'm really thankful for the support I've gotten on this forum, and believe me I'm not gone for good, but I just don't see any way of getting myself out of THIS mess... again. Sad

WarMech <------ Fucking dumbass.

UPDATE: Ooops, I did it again.

This time it wasn't the fault of the battery, the cartridge, the VCR or any of it, but rather my own fucking inadequacies.  I began recording tonight and recorded a fantastic Segment 17, took a break, and then began working on Segment 18.  I thought I recorded one of the best segments yet, and after I returned to the Inn to save it, I realized that I had forgot to hit record.  As you well know, FF1 does not allow for multiple save files so the one I have is the only one, and the recording is now a segment short.  After working on this run for a year and a half, I think I am going to postpone the run and take a break until I have time this summer to buy a DVD recorder and record the run again from scratch.  It would be vertually impossible to recreate the situation I'm in again, and to be honest, it wouldn't be fair to the verifiers to allow three separate run-throughs in a single recording... or to allow both the mess-up I had earlier AND a missing segment (even though it was only a minute and a half).  I very sorry to disappoint everyone who was anticipating this run, but sadly, I just don't think there's anyway a new one can be finished by May.  I'm really thankful for the support I've gotten on this forum, and believe me I'm not gone for good, but I just don't see any way of getting myself out of THIS mess... again.  :(

WarMech <------ Fucking dumbass.

iamfanboy

2008-02-15 01:47:30 am

I'm in your FF save, spanking Yuffie.

Oh, damn.

I am so sorry to hear that, dude. Disaster waits us around every corner.