Final Fantasy 1 - Segmented (Run Submitted!)

Edit history:

WarMech: 2010-09-28 03:46:22 pm

2010-09-28 03:45:59 pm

Darkwing: Thanks! What specific model did you use for your runs?

I Have No Name: I subtracted the experience for the fighter who died in the previous segment since his experience no longer matters and is not part of the group total (which that column measures). It was easier to do it this way so I knew how much XP I had between the three party members.

Carcinogen: Yup, I posted the route and spreadsheet to make it easier.

All: Thoughts on this model? http://www.magnavox.com/p/index_player.php?id=28

Carcinogen

2010-09-28 06:08:28 pm

Oh, first post, nvm, I'm retarded.

ZenicReverie

2010-09-28 06:12:24 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Two things:

1) I suggest something with a HDD. Makes it so much easier, but will definitely be more expensive.
2) DVD + VHS combo systems are expensive to repair I've heard. Unless you really need the VCR or want it, I suggest getting a model without it.

Essentia

2010-09-28 09:45:09 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

I would also recommend a DVD recorder with a hard drive, if you can afford it. This is the DVD recorder I use: http://www.amazon.com/Philips-DVDR3576H-Recorder-160GB-Built/dp/B0013WM0BQ/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

It has no lag (that I've noticed, anyway) and it has worked great for me.

Darkwing Duck

2010-09-28 09:59:29 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from WarMech:

Darkwing: Thanks! What specific model did you use for your runs?

DVD recorder? No idea. I didn't make the decision on it. Was bough for its VCR and DVD capabilities. DVD recording was an extra bonus I took advantage of.

japanzaman

2010-09-29 07:04:46 am

Winkwonkie

How long until we see your run up on the main site? It was accepted a while ago, was it not? Looking forward to seeing it up on the main site.

Winkwonle

2010-09-29 11:15:32 pm

Two weeks ago, Mike said that it was really close to being ready. I'm expecting it to come out any day now, but I've got no control on that personally.

WarMech, cool progress! Please keep investing energy for all us FF fans here! I looked at your chart and it fitted what I had in mind based on the recent discussions. I'm still not a big fan of the whole Fi/Fi/Fi/Rm party, but who knows, maybe I'll convert to your views once I see how nicely you make it work. In any event, I wanted to take the time to say once again that I believe your plan is very solid and that you seem to be doing all the essential that I can think of to make the game short and direct within its lines, so I really look forward to seeing you succeed. After all these years...

WarMech

2010-10-15 12:34:18 pm

After much research, I went with the Magnavox HDD Recorder - Black (MDR513H/F7). The HDD feature is a real turn-on, especially since I could have hours and hours of failed segments and really don't want to waste DVD-R's messing with it all. Recording will begin two weeks from today if all goes well!

tmont

2010-10-17 08:24:33 am

Not going to school today

From the SS run's comments:

Quote:

As I proceed through the Temple of Fiends to the Earth floor, I arrange for my team to get petrified, except one Knight, by a GrMedusa group.

What is the reason for this? Sorry if it's answered elsewhere, but this thread is huge.

Kryal

2010-10-17 08:35:51 am

from red to blue

Quote from tmont:

From the SS run's comments:

Quote:

As I proceed through the Temple of Fiends to the Earth floor, I arrange for my team to get petrified, except one Knight, by a GrMedusa group.

What is the reason for this? Sorry if it's answered elsewhere, but this thread is huge.

IIRC, petrified members can't take turns, saving menu time.

RaneofSOTN

2010-10-17 09:22:38 am

I want off the ride....

petrified members can't get rocked by Nuke... lich is easy except for the fact he drops key weaker party members with nuke. -- so its easier to stone them, walk into the fight, smack lich around with one good fighter and unstone everyone than deal with the random death (which if its the rdm, well you be boned sir)

chessjerk

Edit history:

chessjerk: 2010-10-17 09:23:16 am

2010-10-17 09:22:43 am

They also cannot be killed by NUKE.

EDIT: d'oh, ninja'd

Winkwonle

2010-10-17 01:09:52 pm

That's right. I should have mentioned the reason why, but I seem to have forgotten to. It's a trick that I've been using for years, but I usually go in the Ice cave to get petrified, then Inn at Coneria, then proceed into the ToFR. In that case it's not necessary to petrify everyone; just one character with LIFE does it.

Tuff_fish

2010-10-17 10:28:03 pm

Congrats on the run being accepted and posted on the site (it's about time!)

I've watched through the waterfall and so far the run looks excellent. You did a very nice job planning this route and it really shows. Even the menu time and battles look very sharp.

A few random comments/questions...

I really enjoyed watching the optimized early part of the game. You were right-- there are a LOT of ogres in that stage of the battle counter. There were some kyzokus and geists as well. The geists were a nice touch, and fit in quite conveniently with the FFRW team. Also, being able to skip (delay) the dwarf cave gold obviously saves some time.

What was your success rate vs Astos with the mute/ice strategy? That seemed pretty solid, but mute is pretty unreliable (I know the fight is still winnable even if it doesn't land).

Heal potion marathon.. wow does that ever have to get boring doing it over and over and over. Smiley

The new farming/exp system (Zombie dragons --> Eye) is pretty awesome. It's one of those things where you really have to have a deep understanding of the game in order to appreciate (for example, the 300hp threshold). Very cool.

This isn't particular to your run, just a random FF1 question, what happens if you talk to the old guy in Ordeals? I know it's strictly not necessary, but it doesn't negatively affect anything, does it? (outside of it being a waste)

Anyway, as I said before, congrats on an awesome run. I'm looking forward to watching the rest tomorrow. That this game can be single segmented in under 4 hours just blows my mind. Do you have any plans to make another FF1 run in the future? Perhaps with a riskier team or route or anything of the sort?

Congrats on the run being accepted and posted on the site (it's about time!)

I've watched through the waterfall and so far the run looks excellent.  You did a very nice job planning this route and it really shows.  Even the menu time and battles look very sharp.

A few random comments/questions...

I really enjoyed watching the optimized early part of the game.  You were right-- there are a LOT of ogres in that stage of the battle counter.  There were some kyzokus and geists as well.  The geists were a nice touch, and fit in quite conveniently with the FFRW team.  Also, being able to skip (delay) the dwarf cave gold obviously saves some time.

What was your success rate vs Astos with the mute/ice strategy?  That seemed pretty solid, but mute is pretty unreliable (I know the fight is still winnable even if it doesn't land).

Heal potion marathon.. wow does that ever have to get boring doing it over and over and over. :)

The new farming/exp system (Zombie dragons --> Eye) is pretty awesome.  It's one of those things where you really have to have a deep understanding of the game in order to appreciate (for example, the 300hp threshold).  Very cool.

This isn't particular to your run, just a random FF1 question, what happens if you talk to the old guy in Ordeals?  I know it's strictly not necessary, but it doesn't negatively affect anything, does it? (outside of it being a waste)

Anyway, as I said before, congrats on an awesome run.  I'm looking forward to watching the rest tomorrow.  That this game can be single segmented in under 4 hours just blows my mind.  Do you have any plans to make another FF1 run in the future?  Perhaps with a riskier team or route or anything of the sort?

tmont

2010-10-18 11:26:37 am

Not going to school today

Quote from RaneofSOTN:

petrified members can't get rocked by Nuke... lich is easy except for the fact he drops key weaker party members with nuke. -- so its easier to stone them, walk into the fight, smack lich around with one good fighter and unstone everyone than deal with the random death (which if its the rdm, well you be boned sir)

Ah. I forgot that Nuke attacks all party members.

Anyway, great run. Very well planned out. I learned a lot about the game and battle counters and strategy and whatnot. The fact that it was single segment is amazing to me; I never thought a run of this game would be made, let alone in one sitting.

Winkwonle

Edit history:

Winkwonle: 2010-10-18 01:21:50 pm

2010-10-18 01:18:30 pm

Thank you for the kind words. I'm especially happy about receiving comments on specific aspects of my planning, which tells me that the effort I put into the run reached a perceptive audience. I'd be happy to receive comments from the major players of the Single-segment thread for this game, too, if they are somewhere around.

More specifically answering Tuff_fish's comments, the chances of success against Astos with my strategy are somewhere around 85-90% I believe. I've died two times there in my 20 main attempts, with that exact MUTE/ICE strategy. Where I died most is in the Earth Cave and in the Castle of Ordeals. I curiously didn't die that much in the Ice Cave, maybe because the floors are shorter than in those other two, allowing for more accurate battle manipulation. Anyway, ICE is a lot better than MUTE for all sorts of reasons, among which is Astos. A second Red Mage would definitely have been better for the majority of the game I must say, and since that's what you were recommending in the beginning, I'm half wondering if you're also asking for additional arguments in favor of the White Mage. For now I'll say that I'll comment further if there's interest in the question.

Farming Eyes without the ProRing is my personal favorite. Sadly, it requires so much care to set up that it's not even that big a time saver, and it does add substancial risk to the whole. If I do this again in the future, it's likely that I'll try to revert to a variant of the Agama farming again. But for the time being, I'm very glad that my run features that. It's a proof that it's feasible indeed, and it does save a couple of minutes, so yeah, it contributes to the show.

Talking to the old guy in Ordeals has no effect whatsoever. I skipped it because verifiers had told me that I was not putting up a good show in my previous run, and that here and there I was doing little things like that and like lousy manipulation of my equipment. Among other little things, I took the habit of not talking to that man. You can also note how I now use the Run command as much as possible in non-runnable encounters with my lesser damage dealers (i.e. the White Mage mostly). I don't know how much time that saves as a whole, but my guess is that it doesn't add up to much. But hey, it looks much sharper. Smiley

As for my plans for future runs of FF1, well, I do have more thirst for running this game, yes. I'm really enthusiastic about WarMech's current attempt, and I'll very likely wait to hear the results of it before trying anything new myself. Just to say a few words about my interests though, I must say that more and more, the multi-segment project gives me inspiration. There are a couple of things that I know WarMech is doing and that I don't believe are optimal (but that's for me to prove). I've discussed these things on the forum here six months or so ago, and my intervention ended up being a little counterproductive since WarMech already had a lot of planification done for a very different setting. So if I ever do another FF1 run, chances are that it's going to be a multi-segment run, that it's going to be very different than WarMech's, yet not much faster if any faster at all (since he's cutting the corners of his segments pretty aggressively as I understand it), and that I'm going to do it much more for my own pleasure than for personal accomplishment.

Thank you for the kind words. I'm especially happy about receiving comments on specific aspects of my planning, which tells me that the effort I put into the run reached a perceptive audience. I'd be happy to receive comments from the major players of the Single-segment thread for this game, too, if they are somewhere around.

More specifically answering Tuff_fish's comments, the chances of success against Astos with my strategy are somewhere around 85-90% I believe. I've died two times there in my 20 main attempts, with that exact MUTE/ICE strategy. Where I died most is in the Earth Cave and in the Castle of Ordeals. I curiously didn't die that much in the Ice Cave, maybe because the floors are shorter than in those other two, allowing for more accurate battle manipulation. Anyway, ICE is a lot better than MUTE for all sorts of reasons, among which is Astos. A second Red Mage would definitely have been better for the majority of the game I must say, and since that's what you were recommending in the beginning, I'm half wondering if you're also asking for additional arguments in favor of the White Mage. For now I'll say that I'll comment further if there's interest in the question.

Farming Eyes without the ProRing is my personal favorite. Sadly, it requires so much care to set up that it's not even that big a time saver, and it does add substancial risk to the whole. If I do this again in the future, it's likely that I'll try to revert to a variant of the Agama farming again. But for the time being, I'm very glad that my run features that. It's a proof that it's feasible indeed, and it does save a couple of minutes, so yeah, it contributes to the show.

Talking to the old guy in Ordeals has no effect whatsoever. I skipped it because verifiers had told me that I was not putting up a good show in my previous run, and that here and there I was doing little things like that and like lousy manipulation of my equipment. Among other little things, I took the habit of not talking to that man. You can also note how I now use the Run command as much as possible in non-runnable encounters with my lesser damage dealers (i.e. the White Mage mostly). I don't know how much time that saves as a whole, but my guess is that it doesn't add up to much. But hey, it looks much sharper.  :)

As for my plans for future runs of FF1, well, I do have more thirst for running this game, yes. I'm really enthusiastic about WarMech's current attempt, and I'll very likely wait to hear the results of it before trying anything new myself. Just to say a few words about my interests though, I must say that more and more, the multi-segment project gives me inspiration. There are a couple of things that I know WarMech is doing and that I don't believe are optimal (but that's for me to prove). I've discussed these things on the forum here six months or so ago, and my intervention ended up being a little counterproductive since WarMech already had a lot of planification done for a very different setting. So if I ever do another FF1 run, chances are that it's going to be a multi-segment run, that it's going to be very different than WarMech's, yet not much faster if any faster at all (since he's cutting the corners of his segments pretty aggressively as I understand it), and that I'm going to do it much more for my own pleasure than for personal accomplishment.

Tuff_fish

2010-10-18 07:26:53 pm

I am surprised that you died very often at all in the earth cave. My experience with the FFRW team (and it has been some time now) was that it was excellent in the earth cave.

FFRR was my initial preferred team, yes, but you've already done a great job explaining the decision to pick FFRW over FFRR. For comparison's sake, FFRR does better pre-marsh cave (fire is an acceptable substitute for harm versus single gheists), worse vs wizards, better vs Astos, and probably slightly worse in the earth cave. There are obviously tons of small factors to consider beyond that, the only other one I'll add is that the white mage gives early access to life for the eye-farming.

I did notice that you did use the run command in non-runnable encounters with (mostly) your white mage. Off the top of my head, I remember it a couple times specifically versus wizards in the earth cave. It was a nice touch.

Speaking of the earth cave, I also seem to recall you putting your white mage in the first rank right before cockatrices came up. What was the reasoning there? The White mage having a higher evade? Or simply in case you had to battle your way out should the first 2 characters get stoned?

Other minor things that peaked my interest that I jotted down: Silver sword to the red mage (crossing the 2 hit threshold) when farming mummies and shortly thereafter, Saving level 3 spell charges in the Castle of Ordeals for when killing pairs of Zombie Dragons, improved routes on the final floors of the Sea Shrine and Volcano, liberal heal 2 usage before ToF:R, and the lone knight using the wizard staff against the green medusae.

Also, nice solution on the healing items, specifically, giving the heal helmet and heal staff to the 3rd and 4th team members. I had always given the helmet to the first knight, which fits nice, but in practice, he doesn't get the chance to use it very much. (attacking, running, or using defense is almost always better)

One thing I do have to ask about is encountering sorcerers on warmech's bridge. Did you just get one more fight than planned on the bridge? (I forget exactly where it took place) That would seem like a fight to desperately avoid, although I wasn't tracking the encounter table while watching the run, so perhaps it was the best sequence available.

I do want to watch this run again, paying more attention specifically to the boss fights. Of course, you also spelled all of this out in your comments, but that isn't as fun. Smiley

Seriously though, you came up with some really creative play in many of the boss fights that minimize your probability of dying.

Finally, I'm also very excited about seeing any other runs in the future as well, such as yours or Warmech's segmented run. Maybe we could use this thread for its intended purpose after all. Cheesy

I am surprised that you died very often at all in the earth cave.  My experience with the FFRW team (and it has been some time now) was that it was excellent in the earth cave.

FFRR was my initial preferred team, yes, but you've already done a great job explaining the decision to pick FFRW over FFRR.  For comparison's sake, FFRR does better pre-marsh cave (fire is an acceptable substitute for harm versus single gheists), worse vs wizards, better vs Astos, and probably slightly worse in the earth cave.  There are obviously tons of small factors to consider beyond that, the only other one I'll add is that the white mage gives early access to life for the eye-farming.

I did notice that you did use the run command in non-runnable encounters with (mostly) your white mage. Off the top of my head, I remember it a couple times specifically versus wizards in the earth cave.  It was a nice touch.

Speaking of the earth cave, I also seem to recall you putting your white mage in the first rank right before cockatrices came up.  What was the reasoning there?  The White mage having a higher evade?  Or simply in case you had to battle your way out should the first 2 characters get stoned?

Other minor things that peaked my interest that I jotted down: Silver sword to the red mage (crossing the 2 hit threshold) when farming mummies and shortly thereafter, Saving level 3 spell charges in the Castle of Ordeals for when killing pairs of Zombie Dragons, improved routes on the final floors of the Sea Shrine and Volcano, liberal heal 2 usage before ToF:R, and the lone knight using the wizard staff against the green medusae.

Also, nice solution on the healing items, specifically, giving the heal helmet and heal staff to the 3rd and 4th team members.  I had always given the helmet to the first knight, which fits nice, but in practice, he doesn't get the chance to use it very much. (attacking, running, or using defense is almost always better)

One thing I do have to ask about is encountering sorcerers on warmech's bridge.  Did you just get one more fight than planned on the bridge? (I forget exactly where it took place)  That would seem like a fight to desperately avoid, although I wasn't tracking the encounter table while watching the run, so perhaps it was the best sequence available.

I do want to watch this run again, paying more attention specifically to the boss fights.  Of course, you also spelled all of this out in your comments, but that isn't as fun. :)  Seriously though, you came up with some really creative play in many of the boss fights that minimize your probability of dying.

Finally, I'm also very excited about seeing any other runs in the future as well, such as yours or Warmech's segmented run.  Maybe we could use this thread for its intended purpose after all. :D

Winkwonle

2010-10-18 08:18:17 pm

Well, quickly I counted four deaths in the Earth Cave and three in Ordeals. It may just be because my preferred battle schedule gives me a rather tight (or otherwise very dangerous) path to follow in these two dungeons. I was surprised at how many deaths I was having, I must say, because in principle my route was safer than my previous one.

In the Earth Cave, the battle against Coctrices happened right before the stairs I believe. That probably means that I was planning on not getting it. However, I took extra care putting my White Mage in front because I had died to Coctrices in the Earth Cave already. The idea is that the White Mage is the only character who has nothing else to do against Coctrices than running, and the first two rows are the ones that are bugged for easy running.

The Sorcerers on warmech's bridge was not something that I had wanted either, but I knew that it was there somewhere in the possible dangers. That bridge has a very irregular battle frequency. Sometimes you get two or three, sometimes you get ten of them. I couldn't affort to count my steps, so I did my best finding a relatively safe spot, but I ended up getting Sorcerers one or two steps before Tiamat's room. I did take some extra battles in order to catch a good battle cycle. If you watch the run again, you can pay attention to the specific spots where I do that. There is before the Marsh Cave a little bit, then before Ordeals, before and a couple of places inside the Ice Cave, before the warmech's bridge, and before and a couple of places inside the ToFR.

You know what, I'd be delighted to throw ideas about segmented run planning here. The only thing is that I don't want to divert focus from WarMech's attempt, as much as possible. One thing I can say is that I lean very highly toward using a Black Mage and exploiting early WARP, and QAKE against Kary and Lich2. Also my plan for acquiring experience would be much more incongruous. What I still have to think about is how I'll plan my early game, and to that effect, how many White Mages I'll use for faster early exp, either from Geists or from Zombulls. Since all four Fiends can be killed quickly with magic, the only use for Fighters is the ToFR, and I know that it can be done solo at not that high a level. I still got some thinking and testing to do before I can have a strong opinion on what strategy is optimal. As I said also, I don't want to go into too much details here and now because I'm very eager to see progress from WarMech's side. That being said, if there is indeed a discussion eventually, I'll need people here on the forum (that would be you) throwing suggestions and following progress. Otherwise it's just not motivating.

Well, quickly I counted four deaths in the Earth Cave and three in Ordeals. It may just be because my preferred battle schedule gives me a rather tight (or otherwise very dangerous) path to follow in these two dungeons. I was surprised at how many deaths I was having, I must say, because in principle my route was safer than my previous one.

In the Earth Cave, the battle against Coctrices happened right before the stairs I believe. That probably means that I was planning on not getting it. However, I took extra care putting my White Mage in front because I had died to Coctrices in the Earth Cave already. The idea is that the White Mage is the only character who has nothing else to do against Coctrices than running, and the first two rows are the ones that are bugged for easy running.

The Sorcerers on warmech's bridge was not something that I had wanted either, but I knew that it was there somewhere in the possible dangers. That bridge has a very irregular battle frequency. Sometimes you get two or three, sometimes you get ten of them. I couldn't affort to count my steps, so I did my best finding a relatively safe spot, but I ended up getting Sorcerers one or two steps before Tiamat's room. I did take some extra battles in order to catch a good battle cycle. If you watch the run again, you can pay attention to the specific spots where I do that. There is before the Marsh Cave a little bit, then before Ordeals, before and a couple of places inside the Ice Cave, before the warmech's bridge, and before and a couple of places inside the ToFR.

You know what, I'd be delighted to throw ideas about segmented run planning here. The only thing is that I don't want to divert focus from WarMech's attempt, as much as possible. One thing I can say is that I lean very highly toward using a Black Mage and exploiting early WARP, and QAKE against Kary and Lich2. Also my plan for acquiring experience would be much more incongruous. What I still have to think about is how I'll plan my early game, and to that effect, how many White Mages I'll use for faster early exp, either from Geists or from Zombulls. Since all four Fiends can be killed quickly with magic, the only use for Fighters is the ToFR, and I know that it can be done solo at not that high a level. I still got some thinking and testing to do before I can have a strong opinion on what strategy is optimal. As I said also, I don't want to go into too much details here and now because I'm very eager to see progress from WarMech's side. That being said, if there is indeed a discussion eventually, I'll need people here on the forum (that would be you) throwing suggestions and following progress. Otherwise it's just not motivating.

japanzaman

2010-10-19 10:27:57 pm

Winkwonle-

Coming in a little late but congrats on the run! I was positive that a single segment could be done in under 4 hours, so it's good to see that you were able to do it. A lot of my initial observations have already been covered by Tuff_fish, so I'll just toss out a couple of random thoughts about different parts of the run.

*You got lucky just before Astos that your second knight didn't die. I assume you would have continued to fight him anyway, correct?

*Losing the whitemage before the earth cave was unlucky, but not freakishly unlucky. You know how crazy those tigers' critical hit rate is- why not put the white mage in the rear during that period of the game?

*Your battle path was obviously interrupted with the white mage death, but you managed to get back on track. What exactly did you (and your helpers) do to get you a decent path, given that ordeals was right around the corner?

*That Sorcerer battle before Tiamat was scary. Man you lucked out there!

All in all, quite impressive. I think this is probably the most solid strategy for a single segment game- the only areas for improvement would be better luck, which you still had your fair share of anyway (you really can't do something like this without it). That whitemage death hurt you, but considering all the other places you could have suffered a setback one death is definitely nothing to sweat.

The party you used is in my opinion the best for this kind of challenge. Harm magic, extra healing, and those Life charges for the last level make up for the minimal loss of damage that another knight or rm would bring. Perhaps in the early game you lose some survivability, but towards the end the wm is definitely far more valuable due to those Life charges.

Unless you are really unhappy with this run or have quite a bit of time on your hands, you should probably forget about trying to top this time. In a long segmented run like this, luck has a way of averaging out and it would be very unlikely you could beat this time by any significant margin, barring some major miracles. Lich2 is a mountain that must be climbed, and that takes a bit of grinding. Even with freakish luck, a single segment will probably never break the 3:30 mark.

Once again, congrats! You kept plugging and got Final Fantasy up on SDA!

Winkwonle-

Coming in a little late but congrats on the run! I was positive that a single segment could be done in under 4 hours, so it's good to see that you were able to do it. A lot of my initial observations have already been covered by Tuff_fish, so I'll just toss out a couple of random thoughts about different parts of the run.

*You got lucky just before Astos that your second knight didn't die. I assume you would have continued to fight him anyway, correct?

*Losing the whitemage before the earth cave was unlucky, but not freakishly unlucky. You know how crazy those tigers' critical hit rate is- why not put the white mage in the rear during that period of the game?

*Your battle path was obviously interrupted with the white mage death, but you managed to get back on track. What exactly did you (and your helpers) do to get you a decent path, given that ordeals was right around the corner?

*That Sorcerer battle before Tiamat was scary. Man you lucked out there!

All in all, quite impressive. I think this is probably the most solid strategy for a single segment game- the only areas for improvement would be better luck, which you still had your fair share of anyway (you really can't do something like this without it). That whitemage death hurt you, but considering all the other places you could have suffered a setback one death is definitely nothing to sweat.

The party you used is in my opinion the best for this kind of challenge. Harm magic, extra healing, and those Life charges for the last level make up for the minimal loss of damage that another knight or rm would bring. Perhaps in the early game you lose some survivability, but towards the end the wm is definitely far more valuable due to those Life charges.

Unless you are really unhappy with this run or have quite a bit of time on your hands, you should probably forget about trying to top this time. In a long segmented run like this, luck has a way of averaging out and it would be very unlikely you could beat this time by any significant margin, barring some major miracles. Lich2 is a mountain that must be climbed, and that takes a bit of grinding. Even with freakish luck, a single segment will probably never break the 3:30 mark.

Once again, congrats! You kept plugging and got Final Fantasy up on SDA!

Winkwonle

2010-10-21 01:58:23 am

Quote:

I was positive that a single segment could be done in under 4 hours

On my end, I wasn't so sure of that after a certain point. I wrote about being able to do it like one year and a half ago, but looking back I really didn't know what I was talking about. I must admit that I'm a little surprised to hear you say that you were expecting 4 hours... it took quite a lot of thinking and planning to arive there. For example, last October my rejected run was 4:25 and it already felt (to me at least) like there wasn't that much to do to improve it. The only things that I really ended up fixing were using pre-arranged battle cycles and changing my main exp earning spot. That and being more careful about little hesitations, even though I doubt it changed much.

Quote:

I'll just toss out a couple of random thoughts about different parts of the run

I would have beaten Astos even with both my fighters down. I was much too close to the northwest castle to go back, and also that part of the game is not one where I tolerate backtracking. Since I succeeded in landing MUTE, the battle was pretty easy in fact, to the point that a solo Red Mage could have ended it on his sole supply of elemental spells.

Losing the fully-healed back-row level-8 white mage to the party of two Tigers came to me as quite a surprise. It must have been at least decently improbable, considering that Tigers only have a 25% chance per hit of critting, and that I received 4/6 of them during the first two rounds. Add to that the fact that the third and fourth row characters only have 1/8 each of being targetted (this identical chance is the reason I didn't bother reordering my rear), and my White Mage was chosen three times out of four. Of course you're absolutely right about the fact that the run ought to contain a certain share of bad luck, since it lasts four hours, and that having been unlucky there was a lot less problematic than it could have been, say, against the Sorcerers later on.

I was able to reposition myself into the battle cycle because I knew that another good spot was coming up. I practiced this run dozens of time on emulator before I decided that I was ready for the console. There was also a good spot for Ordeals something like ten battles before the moment that I was planning to get there, and that was one of the reasons why I originally thought that looting the Northwest castle was not a good idea. Nonetheless, reaching up to the next good battle cycle was pretty stressful because it had been some time since I had to do it, and I wasn't sure that there was one coming up after all. I had two different helpers, but they were just there once at a time. What my helper and I did was looking up at large paper bands of numbers (each between 1 to 8) placed on my wall over the TV, and spotting the next sequence containing as few 3, 4, 5, and 7's as possible for three consecutive spots (Ordeals 2F), then as few 1, 2, 3, 6 and 7's for another three or four consecutive spots (Ordeals 3F). While I was looking at the numbers, I was also doing my best to navigate on the worldmap towards Ordeals, and browsing through the empty battles. It's the thing that I wasn't able to do in my first submitted run, because it requires a lot of concentration and a much better organization system than simply sitting there and playing like I used to. Getting a good spot for the Ice cave was similar, and the next important location was the ToFR's Earth floor.

Quote:

The party you used is in my opinion the best for this kind of challenge

It took me some time to convince myself of that too. I used to think that Fi/Fi/Fi/Rm was better, and then that Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm was, but it's really interesting to see how the game gives you just enough undead in the early part to make it worth having a White Mage. As for the "second half" of the game -- whatever follows the Earth cave -- the White Mage becomes an item user so having more healing is just better. Finally, like you said, early access to LIFE closes the deal. I would never argue for two White Mages though, because then the black magic really lacks. If I do do a multi-segment run eventually, all my efforts will be in using one Fighter and one Black Mage, and I'll fill my two other slots with characters that serve very specific purposes for very short periods during the game. The dynamics of a single segment just requires that reliability that White Mages are so good at providing.

I'm not unhappy with this run. I agree that 3:30 is pretty much the lower bound for any try ever. Someone could replicate my strategy but be a little more patient about luck, and squeeze a 3:45 easily I think, maybe 3:40 with very slight adaptations, like skipping the trip back to Northwest castle. The major improvement that I can see would be to manage to use a Black Mage and skip most of the Eye farming because of the early access to WARP. But Black Mages are so unreliable, ahhg. I really don't think I'll try again for a single segment. I did my best and it was accepted, so here you go future generations of runners, you now have a reference time to beat and a working strategy to improve on.

I'm very glad to hear comments about my choice of team from someone who is also present on the GameFAQs's Final Fantasy section, because I was kind of hoping for some impact on the opinions of that group too (... eventually; let's see how long it takes to reach there). I've read your low-level guide some time ago and I found it very appealing. I tried the challenge of course, and I liked it so much that for some time all I had in mind was planning my new speedrun in accordance with these constraints. I don't know how it'd be received on SDA though, but depending on the interest, that's still a thing that I'd like doing. I've calmed down a little bit since, however, and now I'm more leaning toward a follow-up of WarMech's multi-segment. But still, I think it's you who said it on the forum, dungeons can be done at a surprisingly low level and they don't become much longer because of it, so a low-level run would probably clock not so much higher than an unconstrained segmented run in fact, and it'd be a lot more fun to optimize! Roll Eyes

And once again, thank you for the comments. I love them. It makes all the difference between running by myself and running for a cause. It makes me want to invest energy and think more about it. Anyway, cheers!

[quote]I was positive that a single segment could be done in under 4 hours[/quote]

On my end, I wasn't so sure of that after a certain point. I wrote about being able to do it like one year and a half ago, but looking back I really didn't know what I was talking about. I must admit that I'm a little surprised to hear you say that you were expecting 4 hours... it took quite a lot of thinking and planning to arive there. For example, last October my rejected run was 4:25 and it already felt (to me at least) like there wasn't that much to do to improve it. The only things that I really ended up fixing were using pre-arranged battle cycles and changing my main exp earning spot. That and being more careful about little hesitations, even though I doubt it changed much.

[quote]I'll just toss out a couple of random thoughts about different parts of the run[/quote]

I would have beaten Astos even with both my fighters down. I was much too close to the northwest castle to go back, and also that part of the game is not one where I tolerate backtracking. Since I succeeded in landing MUTE, the battle was pretty easy in fact, to the point that a solo Red Mage could have ended it on his sole supply of elemental spells.

Losing the fully-healed back-row level-8 white mage to the party of two Tigers came to me as quite a surprise. It must have been at least decently improbable, considering that Tigers only have a 25% chance per hit of critting, and that I received 4/6 of them during the first two rounds. Add to that the fact that the third and fourth row characters only have 1/8 each of being targetted (this identical chance is the reason I didn't bother reordering my rear), and my White Mage was chosen three times out of four. Of course you're absolutely right about the fact that the run ought to contain a certain share of bad luck, since it lasts four hours, and that having been unlucky there was a lot less problematic than it could have been, say, against the Sorcerers later on.

I was able to reposition myself into the battle cycle because I knew that another good spot was coming up. I practiced this run dozens of time on emulator before I decided that I was ready for the console. There was also a good spot for Ordeals something like ten battles before the moment that I was planning to get there, and that was one of the reasons why I originally thought that looting the Northwest castle was not a good idea. Nonetheless, reaching up to the next good battle cycle was pretty stressful because it had been some time since I had to do it, and I wasn't sure that there was one coming up after all. I had two different helpers, but they were just there once at a time. What my helper and I did was looking up at large paper bands of numbers (each between 1 to 8) placed on my wall over the TV, and spotting the next sequence containing as few 3, 4, 5, and 7's as possible for three consecutive spots (Ordeals 2F), then as few 1, 2, 3, 6 and 7's for another three or four consecutive spots (Ordeals 3F). While I was looking at the numbers, I was also doing my best to navigate on the worldmap towards Ordeals, and browsing through the empty battles. It's the thing that I wasn't able to do in my first submitted run, because it requires a lot of concentration and a much better organization system than simply sitting there and playing like I used to. Getting a good spot for the Ice cave was similar, and the next important location was the ToFR's Earth floor.

[quote]The party you used is in my opinion the best for this kind of challenge[/quote]

It took me some time to convince myself of that too. I used to think that Fi/Fi/Fi/Rm was better, and then that Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm was, but it's really interesting to see how the game gives you just enough undead in the early part to make it worth having a White Mage. As for the "second half" of the game -- whatever follows the Earth cave -- the White Mage becomes an item user so having more healing is just better. Finally, like you said, early access to LIFE closes the deal. I would never argue for two White Mages though, because then the black magic really lacks. If I do do a multi-segment run eventually, all my efforts will be in using one Fighter and one Black Mage, and I'll fill my two other slots with characters that serve very specific purposes for very short periods during the game. The dynamics of a single segment just requires that reliability that White Mages are so good at providing.

I'm not unhappy with this run. I agree that 3:30 is pretty much the lower bound for any try ever. Someone could replicate my strategy but be a little more patient about luck, and squeeze a 3:45 easily I think, maybe 3:40 with very slight adaptations, like skipping the trip back to Northwest castle. The major improvement that I can see would be to manage to use a Black Mage and skip most of the Eye farming because of the early access to WARP. But Black Mages are so unreliable, ahhg. I really don't think I'll try again for a single segment. I did my best and it was accepted, so here you go future generations of runners, you now have a reference time to beat and a working strategy to improve on.

I'm very glad to hear comments about my choice of team from someone who is also present on the GameFAQs's Final Fantasy section, because I was kind of hoping for some impact on the opinions of that group too (... eventually; let's see how long it takes to reach there). I've read your low-level guide some time ago and I found it very appealing. I tried the challenge of course, and I liked it so much that for some time all I had in mind was planning my new speedrun in accordance with these constraints. I don't know how it'd be received on SDA though, but depending on the interest, that's still a thing that I'd like doing. I've calmed down a little bit since, however, and now I'm more leaning toward a follow-up of WarMech's multi-segment. But still, I think it's you who said it on the forum, dungeons can be done at a surprisingly low level and they don't become much longer because of it, so a low-level run would probably clock not so much higher than an unconstrained segmented run in fact, and it'd be a lot more fun to optimize! ::)

And once again, thank you for the comments. I love them. It makes all the difference between running by myself and running for a cause. It makes me want to invest energy and think more about it. Anyway, cheers!

japanzaman

2010-10-21 04:42:40 pm

Quote:

...and I liked it so much that for some time all I had in mind was planning my new speedrun in accordance with these constraints.

Hmmm, probably better that you came to your senses on that. If not for your sanity's sake, than anything else. The only thing handicapping a low level run is the initial gold drought- that ship game just isn't made for SDA. I actually need to update the final section of that guide as it had never occurred to me to petrify characters to help keep them alive up to the bosses. That could really help during the last level. As for being sure about a sub four hour time, it was just my gut instinct after having played the game quite a bit myself. I saw your rejected run and figured with a little better execution, some good luck, and a strategy tweak here and there you could get that time down into the three hour mark. You did a lot of the little stuff very well in this run, and it ended up saving quite a bit of time, perhaps more than you actually realize. In a run this long, navigating menus and optimized walking routes can add up.

As for a single segment attempt, I know that Warmech is starting his attempt up and I'm looking forward to seeing what madness he conjures up. As you said, I would expect to see lots of one shot kills for many of the bosses, with perhaps only using three or two characters the entire game. If he can break the three hour mark, I wouldn't have any complaints regardless what he did. Actually, I don't know why I'm speaking as if he isn't here, since this is his thread. Good luck warmech!

[quote] ...and I liked it so much that for some time all I had in mind was planning my new speedrun in accordance with these constraints. [/quote]

Hmmm,  probably better that you came to your senses on that. If not for your sanity's sake, than anything else. The only thing handicapping a low level run is the initial gold drought-  that ship game just isn't made for SDA. I actually need to update the final section of that guide as it had never occurred to me to petrify characters to help keep them alive up to the bosses. That could really help during the last level. As for being sure about a sub four hour time, it was just my gut instinct after having played the game quite a bit myself. I saw your rejected run and figured with a little better execution, some good luck, and a strategy tweak here and there you could get that time down into the three hour mark. You did a lot of the little stuff very well in this run, and it ended up saving quite a bit of time, perhaps more than you actually realize. In a run this long, navigating menus and optimized walking routes can add up.

As for a single segment attempt, I know that Warmech is starting his attempt up and I'm looking forward to seeing what madness he conjures up. As you said, I would expect to see lots of one shot kills for many of the bosses, with perhaps only using three or two characters the entire game. If he can break the three hour mark, I wouldn't have any complaints regardless what he did. Actually, I don't know why I'm speaking as if he isn't here, since this is his thread. Good luck warmech!

getter77

2010-10-21 05:50:05 pm

100% runs=great to watch

Certainly a great run to round out that last update----haven't spent that much time staring at the visual doings of NES games for a looong time. thumbsup

Winkwonle

2010-10-21 08:51:03 pm

Quote:

Hmmm, probably better that you came to your senses on that.

Well, what I was thinking was whether I could do a low-exp run, rather than a low-level one in fact. The rules would be that I can do whatever I want as long as I don't win any battle that's not forced by the game's story line. That includes not class changing and not getting any non-runable in the ToFR. However it doesn't include avoiding exp from Kary by use of the spell FEAR. I'd have to check with SDA if that applies or not as a proper "low-level run" category of course. It's a lot easier than what you had imposed on yourself in your guide, I estimate, and I feel like it makes more sense in terms of being minimalist.

Quote:

The only thing handicapping a low level run is the initial gold drought- that ship game just isn't made for SDA.

I played a test run on emulator a couple of months ago and this didn't come up as a problem. My party was Fi/Fi/Rm/Bm, although now I think that Fi/Th/Rm/Bm is best, and I kept all my people alive up to Astos. I never had to use the ship game. Upon entering the ToFR, my levels were Fi11/Fi5/Rm4/Bm8 (with Fi5 and Bm8 petrified). I unpetrified my Rm before Lich2, so that he could use the Light Axe once or twice for a little damage boost. When I reached Chaos, my levels were Fi13, Fi5, Rm4-dead, Bm8. My Bm had 1 charge of FAST to give to my Fi13, who had Masmune equipped for an average damage output of 263 per round. My Fi5 was scheduled to use the Black Shirt each round (avg of 30 dmg/round), and my Bm the White Shirt starting from round 2.

Quote:

haven't spent that much time staring at the visual doings of NES games for a looong time.

Thank you getter77. It was one of my goals making this old NES game have its moment of glory on SDA. Personally, I've never really liked the remakes with all their fluffy graphics and 3D effects. Also the NES version is very deeply bugged, and they never seemed to understand how to recreate all of them in the remakes... Sometimes I wonder what kind of programmer that Nasir guy was! Tongue

[quote]Hmmm,  probably better that you came to your senses on that.[/quote]

Well, what I was thinking was whether I could do a low-exp run, rather than a low-level one in fact. The rules would be that I can do whatever I want as long as I don't win any battle that's not forced by the game's story line. That includes not class changing and not getting any non-runable in the ToFR. However it doesn't include avoiding exp from Kary by use of the spell FEAR. I'd have to check with SDA if that applies or not as a proper "low-level run" category of course. It's a lot easier than what you had imposed on yourself in your guide, I estimate, and I feel like it makes more sense in terms of being minimalist.

[quote]The only thing handicapping a low level run is the initial gold drought-  that ship game just isn't made for SDA.[/quote]

I played a test run on emulator a couple of months ago and this didn't come up as a problem. My party was Fi/Fi/Rm/Bm, although now I think that Fi/Th/Rm/Bm is best, and I kept all my people alive up to Astos. I never had to use the ship game. Upon entering the ToFR, my levels were Fi11/Fi5/Rm4/Bm8 (with Fi5 and Bm8 petrified). I unpetrified my Rm before Lich2, so that he could use the Light Axe once or twice for a little damage boost. When I reached Chaos, my levels were Fi13, Fi5, Rm4-dead, Bm8. My Bm had 1 charge of FAST to give to my Fi13, who had Masmune equipped for an average damage output of 263 per round. My Fi5 was scheduled to use the Black Shirt each round (avg of 30 dmg/round), and my Bm the White Shirt starting from round 2.

[quote]haven't spent that much time staring at the visual doings of NES games for a looong time.[/quote]

Thank you getter77. It was one of my goals making this old NES game have its moment of glory on SDA. Personally, I've never really liked the remakes with all their fluffy graphics and 3D effects. Also the NES version is very deeply bugged, and they never seemed to understand how to recreate all of them in the remakes... Sometimes I wonder what kind of programmer that Nasir guy was! :P

japanzaman

Edit history:

japanzaman: 2010-10-22 02:29:01 am

2010-10-22 02:24:08 am

Winkwonl-

My low level game was designed around the level of the highest level member of your party, so in the end 9 seemed to be the limit of what was realistically possible. I like that rule because it forces you to honor the spirit of the low level game, which is keeping everybody at the lowest level and forcing you to keep everybody alive for almost all the battles. Still, it's not like my rules are set in stone or anything, and low level can have quite a few interpretations. I should also add that low level and low experience are different things altogether.

FionordeQuester

2010-10-23 04:19:23 pm

Hey, Winkwonle, what route do you think you would've had had you used the Fi/Rm/Rm/Rm party?