Final Fantasy 1 - Segmented (Run Submitted!)

EO

Edit history:

EO: 2008-03-11 01:37:27 am

2008-03-10 03:21:57 pm

Ohai

Quote:

You do bring up a good point.

Pretty sure Groobo didn't have a penalty for Diablo <_<

I'm pretty sure that SDA just adds 1/2 second per save for games like this. Hence the Half-Life run has 90 seconds of time added to it for all the segmenting it uses.

Carcinogen

2008-03-10 04:33:17 pm

The case is different for RPGs with their own timers iirc.

WarMech

Edit history:

WarMech: 2008-04-03 07:27:43 pm

2008-04-03 07:27:19 pm

Carcinogen: Have you considered submitting your run to SDA? I know you said you weren't 100% happy with it, but the bits that I saw looked awesome. It would be great to get a FF1 up here of any kind, and yours looks like the one to do. I haven't forgotten about you guys!

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2008-04-03 07:46:55 pm

2008-04-03 07:36:25 pm

haha, you think so?

Unfortunately, I'm still far from finished... I have to look for a strategy to use against Chaos, since he's actually VERY different in the PSX version. Your strategy is unsound for the PSX version, I'm afraid, though I'm sure it works near-flawlessly on the NES version.

I have to keep trying for over 3 hours in one sitting until I can reach him, and the fights against the 4 fiends take many soft resets... Especially Tiamat, who will use Poison and totally fuck me over =[

Aside from that, I made a couple of big flaws in my route that wouldn't warrant submitting this run. Besides that, I'm pretty sure I don't have all the DVDs.

I'm definitely considering the GBA version though, since the japanese 1:22:xx on the GBA version has a yarikomi report up somewhere. I could replicate that run and send it here =p

I'd much rather you submit yours first, anyway. =D

Enhasa

2008-04-05 09:29:00 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

EO is right, and groobo's Diablo is actually one of the best examples. And even if a game has its own timer, the quicksave penalty is applied.

Also I agree with Carc, original is best, that's what I want to see first. Wink

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2008-04-05 11:54:36 pm

2008-04-05 11:54:17 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Just for reference, Groobo's Diablo run had 19.5 seconds added for using 39 saves (the time without the penalty would be 5:47).

Carcinogen

2008-09-29 02:24:15 am

Quick bumparoo. Warmech, you lurking around here by chance? I was spelunking around Ultimagarden when I came across this.

http://ultimagarden.net/ff_rta.html
http://hwm6.gyao.ne.jp/dominator/records/FF1_FC_RTA_080717_dorninator.html

This guy "Dominator" is a fucking monster. He's done No-Save time attacks of FF1-5, and has some checkpoint times for each.

There aren't any segmented times for FF1 on the NES at UG either. ;-p

snorlax

Edit history:

snorlax: 2008-09-29 05:17:20 pm

2008-09-29 04:53:39 pm

zzzzzzzzzz

What do the checkpoints say? This is what I see:

E Å‰‚Ì“dŒ¹‚n‚m 0:00:00
E ƒKƒ‰ƒ“ƒhŒ‚”j 0:03:25
E ƒAƒXƒgƒXŒ‚”j 0:43:37
E ƒoƒ“ƒpƒCƒAŒ‚”j 1:16:09
E ƒŠƒbƒ`Œ‚”j 1:30:26
E ƒ}ƒŠƒŠƒXŒ‚”j 2:16:18
E ƒNƒ‰ƒPƒ“Œ‚”j 2:50:37
E ƒeƒBƒAƒ}ƒbƒgŒ‚”j 3:07:50
E ƒJƒIƒXŒ‚”j 3:32:54
E THE END 3:37:14

(Edit: I had to modify the text up there a little to get it all to show up in the post.)

Also, where does it say it is not segmented? If you could offer a translation of that second page, that might be pretty awesome.

Edit: I've realized that a translation of that page is perhaps an unreasonable request. I'd just like to know what I need to be able to see the page properly, and I will translate it myself if need be.

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2008-09-29 06:01:00 pm

2008-09-29 05:48:45 pm

Install the East Asian Language Pack. Then change the character encoding to Japanese. That'll get the characters to display properly. The ones in your post displayed as an avalanche of random characters =[

The checkpoint list's an easy translation job, since it's mostly Katakana, and they're all bosses. =p

Console Power On 0:00:00
Garland Defeated 0:03:25
Astos Defeated 0:43:37
Vampire Defeated 1:16:09
Lich Defeated 1:30:26
Marilith (or whatever the fuck Square wants to name her nowadays, lol maririsu) Defeated 2:16:18
Kraken Defeated 2:50:37
Tiamat Defeated 3:07:50
Chaos Defeated 3:32:54
THE END 3:37:14

The Japanese call a no-save Time Attack of an RPG an RTA, or "Real-Time Attack".

Translating the RTA page might be a fun little project for me to undertake, since I'm kind-of in a rut and I have absolutely nothing to do in my spare time in this god-forsaken place. T_T

mikwuyma

2008-09-29 05:52:12 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Ok I haven't looked at this thing too much, but the party the guy used is two fighters and two red mages.

Carcinogen

2008-09-29 05:58:20 pm

Same party was used in the GBA 1:22. They're probably onto something <_<

Essentia

2008-09-29 07:02:37 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

I'm guessing Ultima Garden times their "real-time attack" runs with real-time instead of game time, but does anyone know for sure? I suppose FF1 would have to be real-time since there's no in-game timer, but what about the others? (Either way, I still beat their FF6 RTA, but I was just wondering by how much. ;))

mikwuyma

2008-09-29 07:04:02 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Yeah, that's right Essentia, the FF1 run starts from power-on, then ends when the text "THE END" appears and the music starts to fade.

Carcinogen

2008-09-29 07:12:21 pm

Heh, don't be surprised if Dominator is working on FFVI as we speak.

snorlax

2008-09-30 12:13:31 am

zzzzzzzzzz

I'm reading a Google-translated version of the page (the first third of it anyway). I'm going to make some notes of the run as I read it.

He's using power cycles during his single-segment, which I'm pretty sure will continue to be against the rules here. He even resets to avoid unwanted fights instead of running. I didn't see a use for that when he first mentioned it, but it's clearly playing into his route, if I'm understanding it correctly. As I read further, I really don't think I am....

He doesn't go to the PNEOP until after defeating Astos and getting the key. That's an interesting strategy; I think most people would assume you'd want to go to the PNEOP first.

That's all for now.

Carcinogen

2008-09-30 07:51:59 am

Hehehe, Power Cycles, fuck me running. I thought the idea was supposed to be "no saves"? =_=

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2009-03-03 06:25:50 pm

2009-03-03 10:39:23 am

Another bump. I decided to start translating Fuchiken's FF1 GBA route yesterday, since it's not gonna translate itself. imo not the best exercise in the world for my Japanese, but I might actually be able to learn some Kanji this way, outside of getting shit done.

http://yarikomi.honanie.com/ff1/gbata.html

Here's the link again. The whole thing is written in past tense pretty much (overuse of the -mashita suffix wasn't a dead giveaway, lol), so it kinda threw me off. I managed to get a good literal translation of the first box in the left column, since the right column is used for commentary-

Quote:

Name and Job creation. Put them in this order:

Fighter: Oto-chan
Red Mage: Sumomo
Red Mage: Hime-chan
White Mage: Mai

The notation in this guide, for your convenience, is "Fighter, Red 1, Red 2, White Mage"

Then, set the alphabet to "Kanji" and skip the opening movie.

=Corneria Town=

A. Weapons Shop: Hammer x1, Rapier x3

B. Armor Shop: Chain Mail x3

C. Menu

(Carc note: it might be faster to start with Equipment, then go to Config, so that the cursor is set over Save after you set the cursor memory)

Code:

-Equipment
     =Spam R, D-pad Right, and A four times
-Config
     =B-Button Dash -> On
     =Cursor Memory -> Memory
     =Message Speed -> 1

D. Black Magic Shop: Give 'Red 1' Sleep
E. White Magic Shop: Give 'White Mage' Cure
F. Talk to the guard at the North Exit, to warp to the King, then skip the text, exit the castle, and Save.

Checkpoint 1: 1 minute 1 second
=Corneria -> Chaos Shrine=

1 Save somewhere in the middle. Encounter 1 Crazy Horse (Carc note: tbh I think they should've stuck with the name Mad Pony for this monster, lol), defeat it in one turn. All party members level to 2.

Save in front of Garland.

Checkpoint 2: 1 minute 38 seconds. (!?)

=vs. Garland=

Defeat him in 5 turns. 6 turns is too slow. Everyone must survive to win, so that they may level to 3.

HP rises, pay special attention to MP rise- Red 2's MP must be at or above 27.

After the fight, talking to Sara, warps you to the king, then skip until there's a break in the conversation. Talk to Sara again, and get the Lute.

Exit to the overworld map, skip more text past the cutscene. Save game on the world map.

Checkpoint 3: 4 minutes 16 seconds.

Originally, his path was to go to the White Magic shop before the Black Magic shop, but I switched them; one of the guards on a random path of movement LOVES to get in front of me before I can talk to his buddy, so I have to be conveniently positioned to get around him.

I know, it's not much, but it's a start. Fun fact from clicking the links in the commentary- he named his party members after characters from a bunch of hentai dating sims.

EDIT: Filled in for the rest of the first box.

Another bump. I decided to start translating Fuchiken's FF1 GBA route yesterday, since it's not gonna translate itself. imo not the best exercise in the world for my Japanese, but I might actually be able to learn some Kanji this way, outside of getting shit done.

http://yarikomi.honanie.com/ff1/gbata.html

Here's the link again. The whole thing is written in past tense pretty much (overuse of the -mashita suffix wasn't a dead giveaway, lol), so it kinda threw me off. I managed to get a good literal translation of the first box in the left column, since the right column is used for commentary-

[quote]Name and Job creation. Put them in this order:

Fighter: Oto-chan
Red Mage: Sumomo
Red Mage: Hime-chan
White Mage: Mai

The notation in this guide, for your convenience, is "Fighter, Red 1, Red 2, White Mage"

Then, set the alphabet to "Kanji" and skip the opening movie.

=Corneria Town=

A. Weapons Shop: Hammer x1, Rapier x3

B. Armor Shop: Chain Mail x3

C. Menu

(Carc note: it might be faster to start with Equipment, then go to Config, so that the cursor is set over Save after you set the cursor memory)

[code]-Equipment
     =Spam R, D-pad Right, and A four times
-Config
     =B-Button Dash -> On
     =Cursor Memory -> Memory
     =Message Speed -> 1[/code]

D. Black Magic Shop: Give 'Red 1' Sleep
E. White Magic Shop: Give 'White Mage' Cure
F. Talk to the guard at the North Exit, to warp to the King, then skip the text, exit the castle, and Save.

[b]Checkpoint 1: 1 minute 1 second[/b]
=Corneria -> Chaos Shrine=

1 Save somewhere in the middle. Encounter 1 Crazy Horse (Carc note: tbh I think they should've stuck with the name Mad Pony for this monster, lol), defeat it in one turn. All party members level to 2.

Save in front of Garland.

[b]Checkpoint 2: 1 minute 38 seconds.[/b] (!?)

=vs. Garland=

Defeat him in 5 turns. 6 turns is too slow. Everyone must survive to win, so that they may level to 3.

HP rises, pay special attention to MP rise- Red 2's MP must be at or above 27.

After the fight, talking to Sara, warps you to the king, then skip until there's a break in the conversation. Talk to Sara again, and get the Lute.

Exit to the overworld map, skip more text past the cutscene. Save game on the world map.

[b]Checkpoint 3: 4 minutes 16 seconds.[/b]
[/quote]

Originally, his path was to go to the White Magic shop before the Black Magic shop, but I switched them; one of the guards on a random path of movement LOVES to get in front of me before I can talk to his buddy, so I have to be conveniently positioned to get around him.

I know, it's not much, but it's a start. Fun fact from clicking the links in the commentary- he named his party members after characters from a bunch of hentai dating sims.

EDIT: Filled in for the rest of the first box.

Carcinogen

2009-03-04 02:18:00 pm

That's 4 segments so far. <_<

Box number 2-

Quote:

=Corneria to Pravoka=

Cross the bridge. After the opening finishes, save on the spot.
Checkpoint: 0:04:30

Save 3 times along the way. Save in front of the pirate (YARR, BIKKE!).
Checkpoint: 0:05:00

Cure twice before the fight.

vs. 9 Pirates
-Turn 1: Red 1 casts Sleep. The other 3 party members attack.
-Turns 2-3: Everyone attacks.
-Everyone has to survive, so that they'll reach Level 4.
-Red 2's MP needs to be no less than 30.

Black Magic Shop
-Buy Red 2 "Sutorai"[Steel/Temper]

Rest at the Inn, go outside, and Save.
Checkpoint: 0:06:49

=Pravoka to Marsh Cave=

Save outside of Elfland.

Save 3 times on the way to the Marsh Cave, then save in front of the Marsh Cave.

Checkpoint: 0:07:46

=Marsh Cave=
B1F - Don't save until you descend the stairs... Then save.
B2F - Get the Broadsword, then Save. Descend the stairs, then save.
B3F - Go to the tile before the Piscodemon fight. Equip the Fighter with the Broadsword, then save.

vs. Piscodemons
-You must fight 2 monsters. 3 monsters or more = reset.
-Turn 1: Red 2 casts Steel on Fighter. Everyone else attacks.
-Turn 2: Everyone attacks.
-Everyone survives and the Piscodemons must fall in two turns. Everyone levels to 5.

Pick up the Crown, then Save.

Checkpoint: 0:09:04

=Escaping the Marsh Cave=

B3F: Pick up the Cottage and Save. Ascend the stairs and save.
B2F: Ascend the stairs without getting into an encounter. Save.
B1F: Go outside without getting into an encounter. Save.

Checkpoint 0:09:34

This one was pretty much me paraphrasing the route. Hoo hoo, this one is going to be fun... 20 segments for only 5 minutes of gameplay. Nate is going to fucking LOVE me whenever I get done with this run.

That's 4 segments so far. <_<

Box number 2-
[quote]=Corneria to Pravoka=

Cross the bridge. After the opening finishes, save on the spot.
[b]Checkpoint: 0:04:30[/b]

Save 3 times along the way. Save in front of the pirate (YARR, BIKKE!).
[b]Checkpoint: 0:05:00[/b]

Cure twice before the fight.

vs. 9 Pirates
-Turn 1: Red 1 casts Sleep. The other 3 party members attack.
-Turns 2-3: Everyone attacks. 
-Everyone has to survive, so that they'll reach Level 4.
-Red 2's MP needs to be no less than 30.

Black Magic Shop
-Buy Red 2 "Sutorai"[Steel/Temper]

Rest at the Inn, go outside, and Save.
[b]Checkpoint: 0:06:49[/b]

=Pravoka to Marsh Cave=

Save outside of Elfland.

Save 3 times on the way to the Marsh Cave, then save in front of the Marsh Cave.

[b]Checkpoint: 0:07:46[/b]

=Marsh Cave=
B1F - Don't save until you descend the stairs... Then save.
B2F - Get the Broadsword, then Save. Descend the stairs, then save.
B3F - Go to the tile before the Piscodemon fight. Equip the Fighter with the Broadsword, then save.

vs. Piscodemons
-You must fight 2 monsters. 3 monsters or more = reset.
-Turn 1: Red 2 casts Steel on Fighter. Everyone else attacks.
-Turn 2: Everyone attacks.
-Everyone survives and the Piscodemons must fall in two turns. Everyone levels to 5.

Pick up the Crown, then Save.

[b]Checkpoint: 0:09:04[/b]

=Escaping the Marsh Cave=

B3F: Pick up the Cottage and Save. Ascend the stairs and save.
B2F: Ascend the stairs without getting into an encounter. Save.
B1F: Go outside without getting into an encounter. Save.

[b]Checkpoint 0:09:34[/b]
[/quote]

This one was pretty much me paraphrasing the route. Hoo hoo, this one is going to be fun... 20 segments for only 5 minutes of gameplay. Nate is going to fucking LOVE me whenever I get done with this run.

Bananamatic

2009-03-04 04:05:17 pm

The horrors of running the old FFs ._.

Well, atleast your options are rather fixed, unlike FFII.

Carcinogen

2009-03-04 04:08:38 pm

The Japanese did all the work for me. ^^;;

This is going to be fun.

Winkwonle

2009-11-11 10:20:16 am

Just for the record, I've done a successful single segment run in about 4:15, recorded on three DVDs, and it is currently in the process of being verified by the SDA team. It's done with a FiFiRmWm team. With the team I originally planned to use, FiFiFiRm, my best successful single segment run takes 4:38. It's kind of a shame since all seems to fit so well with the single Red mage. I'm still mostly interested in improving my single segment run further, but I'm also interested in eventually making a multiple segment run.

Anyway, I've just read the whole thread, and there are a couple of points I wanted to comment on. I'm sure you thought about all the strategies you came up with, but some of the explanations you gave didn't come as obvious at all to me.

to Warmech and people agreeing with his route:
- Why don't you buy a House instead of a Silver Sword after beating Astos. It'd spare you the recovery trip to Pravoka, and that Silver is cool but unnecessary I gather.
- What does level 17 represent ? At level 18, you reach the Knight's threshold of 4-hit attacks with Defense/Xcalber. Do you aim at Level 17 for two Level-5 spell slots, to WARP out of the SLAB floor and the one right before ? A guy said earlier that the game could be beaten at Level 14, so I guess make 15 for the WARP slot and you should be good enough, shouldn't you ?
- You can buy one less Chain mail since you get a free Iron armor before the Wizard battle. That gets you your CURE spell without the extra shopping trip.
- How can you use ICE on ZomBULLs ? Aren't they resistant to that ? Isn't FIRE better ?
- Do you have to worry about a Black mage becoming useless after the PoP ? The whole game has four consistent steps, and the rest is just mindless running around: the Marsh cave, the Earth cave, the Ice cave / Ordeals castle, and the Temple of Fiends revisited. In the Marsh cave (and PoP), the Black is your best guy. In the earth cave, he's still a little better than Fighters, burning the Geist/Specter groups that can otherwise stall you stunned for 5 minutes apiece (of course leading to a reset), frying the Vampire and Lich who are both undead, and wiping out Wizard groups pretty straight with Lit-2. For the Ice cave and Ordeals, you're just running away anyway, so he won't be such a burden with his weak physical attacks. In boss fights, he will invariably use Fast. That just leaves the Temple of Fiends. Additionally, you get your first Warp slot at Level 12.
- Have you considered FiFiWmWm ? That's very effective against even multiple ZomBULLs. Also, you get to RUSE your way out of the Wizard battle (put the Whites in front). It's much cheaper than Fighters at the beginning, and we all know that it is the only place in the game where money is hard to acquire.
- There seems to be a threshold of your characters' talent for running away around level 11-12 or something. Someone said it had to do with having a Luck stat of 15. I don't know if that's true, but leveling up to 11-12 at the PoP is not so long, especially with a stock of House and forced 4-ZomBULL encounters.
- How on earth can you not consider buying LIFE as one of your Level-5 spells ? That saves lives on the ToF:R, I can guarantee it! FIR3 is hardly better than FIR2, and BANE is worth at most a minute. On the other hand, the difference between good runs of the ToF:R and bad ones varies by much more than that. If you tolerate more non-runnable encounters to compensate for the luck that your inability to use LIFE demands, you're not really better off.

After completing a single segment, I feel that a multi segment should be so liberating. Some people talked about retrying dungeons 200-300 times before being satisfied with their attempt. So many retries can channel a LOT of luck! However, these people still don't seem to stretch their character's equipment and levels to extreme (well, about the same as for a single segment). Instead of forcing all runnable encounters and fast boss battles, wouldn't it be more worthwhile to use the extra luck given by the multi segment to squeeze your way through the dungeons with lower resources ? And with lower, I mean, radically lower, like close to that of the TAS...

By the way, is this thread still alive ? I mean, are the major players still there ?

Just for the record, I've done a successful single segment run in about 4:15, recorded on three DVDs, and it is currently in the process of being verified by the SDA team. It's done with a FiFiRmWm team. With the team I originally planned to use, FiFiFiRm, my best successful single segment run takes 4:38. It's kind of a shame since all seems to fit so well with the single Red mage. I'm still mostly interested in improving my single segment run further, but I'm also interested in eventually making a multiple segment run.

Anyway, I've just read the whole thread, and there are a couple of points I wanted to comment on. I'm sure you thought about all the strategies you came up with, but some of the explanations you gave didn't come as obvious at all to me.

to Warmech and people agreeing with his route:
- Why don't you buy a House instead of a Silver Sword after beating Astos. It'd spare you the recovery trip to Pravoka, and that Silver is cool but unnecessary I gather.
- What does level 17 represent ? At level 18, you reach the Knight's threshold of 4-hit attacks with Defense/Xcalber. Do you aim at Level 17 for two Level-5 spell slots, to WARP out of the SLAB floor and the one right before ? A guy said earlier that the game could be beaten at Level 14, so I guess make 15 for the WARP slot and you should be good enough, shouldn't you ?
- You can buy one less Chain mail since you get a free Iron armor before the Wizard battle. That gets you your CURE spell without the extra shopping trip.
- How can you use ICE on ZomBULLs ? Aren't they resistant to that ? Isn't FIRE better ?
- Do you have to worry about a Black mage becoming useless after the PoP ? The whole game has four consistent steps, and the rest is just mindless running around: the Marsh cave, the Earth cave, the Ice cave / Ordeals castle, and the Temple of Fiends revisited. In the Marsh cave (and PoP), the Black is your best guy. In the earth cave, he's still a little better than Fighters, burning the Geist/Specter groups that can otherwise stall you stunned for 5 minutes apiece (of course leading to a reset), frying the Vampire and Lich who are both undead, and wiping out Wizard groups pretty straight with Lit-2. For the Ice cave and Ordeals, you're just running away anyway, so he won't be such a burden with his weak physical attacks. In boss fights, he will invariably use Fast. That just leaves the Temple of Fiends. Additionally, you get your first Warp slot at Level 12.
- Have you considered FiFiWmWm ? That's very effective against even multiple ZomBULLs. Also, you get to RUSE your way out of the Wizard battle (put the Whites in front). It's much cheaper than Fighters at the beginning, and we all know that it is the only place in the game where money is hard to acquire.
- There seems to be a threshold of your characters' talent for running away around level 11-12 or something. Someone said it had to do with having a Luck stat of 15. I don't know if that's true, but leveling up to 11-12 at the PoP is not so long, especially with a stock of House and forced 4-ZomBULL encounters.
- How on earth can you not consider buying LIFE as one of your Level-5 spells ? That saves lives on the ToF:R, I can guarantee it! FIR3 is hardly better than FIR2, and BANE is worth at most a minute. On the other hand, the difference between good runs of the ToF:R and bad ones varies by much more than that. If you tolerate more non-runnable encounters to compensate for the luck that your inability to use LIFE demands, you're not really better off.

After completing a single segment, I feel that a multi segment should be so liberating. Some people talked about retrying dungeons 200-300 times before being satisfied with their attempt. So many retries can channel a LOT of luck! However, these people still don't seem to stretch their character's equipment and levels to extreme (well, about the same as for a single segment). Instead of forcing all runnable encounters and fast boss battles, wouldn't it be more worthwhile to use the extra luck given by the multi segment to squeeze your way through the dungeons with lower resources ? And with lower, I mean, radically lower, like close to that of the TAS...

By the way, is this thread still alive ? I mean, are the major players still there ?

RaneofSOTN

2009-11-11 01:51:37 pm

I want off the ride....

Quote from Winkwonle:

to Warmech and people agreeing with his route:
- Why don't you buy a House instead of a Silver Sword after beating Astos. It'd spare you the recovery trip to Pravoka, and that Silver is cool but unnecessary I gather.
I am unsure but i believe the return trip isn't as bad, since you'll have the extra damage to compensate, but i can't really say.

- What does level 17 represent ? At level 18, you reach the Knight's threshold of 4-hit attacks with Defense/Xcalber. Do you aim at Level 17 for two Level-5 spell slots, to WARP out of the SLAB floor and the one right before ? A guy said earlier that the game could be beaten at Level 14, so I guess make 15 for the WARP slot and you should be good enough, shouldn't you ?
beaten at level 14 is still a pain. warping is good but as for anything else... careful manip gets you fast levels which gets you a faster time. 17 is just i believe the easiest possible one without straining one's self.

- How can you use ICE on ZomBULLs ? Aren't they resistant to that ? Isn't FIRE better ?
in the NES version all resistances are bugged. Guess what? no one is resistant or weak to anything.

- Have you considered FiFiWmWm ? That's very effective against even multiple ZomBULLs. Also, you get to RUSE your way out of the Wizard battle (put the Whites in front). It's much cheaper than Fighters at the beginning, and we all know that it is the only place in the game where money is hard to acquire.
Now you don't have FAST for the bosses, which double the hits really counts. As the best hit rate possible on Chaos is 54% (fighters) which means that you'll hit about 50% of the time, and you'll still do 1 damage a good chunk of the time. So having fast helps out the damage when it comes.

- How on earth can you not consider buying LIFE as one of your Level-5 spells ? That saves lives on the ToF:R, I can guarantee it! FIR3 is hardly better than FIR2, and BANE is worth at most a minute. On the other hand, the difference between good runs of the ToF:R and bad ones varies by much more than that. If you tolerate more non-runnable encounters to compensate for the luck that your inability to use LIFE demands, you're not really better off.
If you are manipulating dungeons and everything, LIFE is mute. It doesn't do you anything as if you have to cast it, you probably screwed up somewhere. Waste of slot/time/money, when you can just retry again.

Thats all I can think of...

[quote="Winkwonle"]
to Warmech and people agreeing with his route:
- Why don't you buy a House instead of a Silver Sword after beating Astos. It'd spare you the recovery trip to Pravoka, and that Silver is cool but unnecessary I gather.
[b]I am unsure but i believe the return trip isn't as bad, since you'll have the extra damage to compensate, but i can't really say.[/b]

- What does level 17 represent ? At level 18, you reach the Knight's threshold of 4-hit attacks with Defense/Xcalber. Do you aim at Level 17 for two Level-5 spell slots, to WARP out of the SLAB floor and the one right before ? A guy said earlier that the game could be beaten at Level 14, so I guess make 15 for the WARP slot and you should be good enough, shouldn't you ?
[b]beaten at level 14 is still a pain. warping is good but as for anything else... careful manip gets you fast levels which gets you a faster time. 17 is just i believe the easiest possible one without straining one's self.[/b]

- How can you use ICE on ZomBULLs ? Aren't they resistant to that ? Isn't FIRE better ?
[b]in the NES version all resistances are bugged. Guess what? no one is resistant or weak to anything.[/b]

- Have you considered FiFiWmWm ? That's very effective against even multiple ZomBULLs. Also, you get to RUSE your way out of the Wizard battle (put the Whites in front). It's much cheaper than Fighters at the beginning, and we all know that it is the only place in the game where money is hard to acquire.
[b]Now you don't have FAST for the bosses, which double the hits really counts. As the best hit rate possible on Chaos is 54% (fighters) which means that you'll hit about 50% of the time, and you'll still do 1 damage a good chunk of the time. So having fast helps out the damage when it comes.[/b]

- How on earth can you not consider buying LIFE as one of your Level-5 spells ? That saves lives on the ToF:R, I can guarantee it! FIR3 is hardly better than FIR2, and BANE is worth at most a minute. On the other hand, the difference between good runs of the ToF:R and bad ones varies by much more than that. If you tolerate more non-runnable encounters to compensate for the luck that your inability to use LIFE demands, you're not really better off.
[b]If you are manipulating dungeons and everything, LIFE is mute. It doesn't do you anything as if you have to cast it, you probably screwed up somewhere. Waste of slot/time/money, when you can just retry again.[/b]
[/quote]

Thats all I can think of...

DoubleThink

2009-11-11 06:45:05 pm

There's a word for that

Quote from RaneofSOTN:

in the NES version all resistances are bugged. Guess what? no one is resistant or weak to anything.

Err I'm pretty sure that's only for weapon types...? Magic still works properly according to this. I've also played the game a bit and the difference is noticeable.

WarMech

2009-11-12 08:54:21 pm

Annnnnnnnnd I'm back! Did you miss me? 8) It feels great to be back on the SDA forum, and I've finally reached a point in my life where I could potentially devote a significant amount of time to speedrunning again. It's about time that we got a couple of good FF1 runs here and I think we've found the people to do it. I recently did another test run to get back into playing this game again, and it wouldn't surprise me if we could shave another 10 minutes off this guy (maybe even more). Sub 3-hours is now a guarantee.

===============================

Winkwonle: Welcome to the forum! You obviously have a great deal of knowledge of the game, so I'm happy to hear your suggestions. I never claimed that my route was perfect, so any advice is appreciated. Likewise, if your run is verified or if you post it on the single-segment thread, I think we could really tear this game apart. Anyway, in response to your questions:

- House/Silver Sword after beating Astos?
Interesting proposal, and I believe this may be a worthy suggestion. That would save probably a minute and a half in backtracking to the inn, and a whole segment. However, the cost is 3,000 which I may need. What could be a solution is never getting the red mage a silver sword (he almost never uses it) and just giving him the one that I had when I get the flame sword in the ice cave.

- Level 17?
Actually, I more revised route that I use is EYE farming until I get to level 16. This gives the Red Mage the two L5 spells which is needed for the Sea Shrine (two warps) and often for TOFR (one warp, one F3/Life). It also gives me an extra Fast for TOFR. I don't believe that the additional lost time it takes to get to level 16 would be gained by having one fewer Warp, one fewer Fast, and weaker fighters.

- Cure/Chain Mail?
This is a good suggestion that is also probably worth it. The trick will be making sure my red mage doesn't get flattened by the Kyzokus and solo ZomBulls, but that is a reasonable amount of luck manipulation to add to those segments.

- Ice on ZomBulls?
Nope. The Ice is necessary for Astos, not the Zombulls. My fighters do an average of 2-3 damage on Astos, so the two Ices actually saves me a good two minutes and a huge headache trying to avoid the Rubs in that segment.

- Black Mage?
I actually did a test run using a BM instead of RM, and the real problem is how unbelievably weak he is at low levels (aka: the entire game). He can easily get 1-2 HKO'd from Kyzokus, Zombulls, Wizards... vertually everything. Also, the cures are incredibly useful, saving me time (buying heals is a pain in the ass) and money early game when I can't afford a thing. Finally, he is useless after the PoP, which if I take your suggestion, won't even matter because I'll have all the Fire 2's I need without a trip to the Inn. For example, he will be worthless in the EYE farming segment, and offers absolutely no advantages to the RM at almost every point in the game using this route. Having Fire 2 a level earlier and the extra spells is nice, but the BM is just a walking liability to getting my ass kicked at a moment's notice.

- Have you considered FiFiWmWm?
To put it bluntly, this is a terrible suggestion. WM offers absolutely no advantages to the RM (or BM for that matter) for 95% of the game. She would be useless against Garland, Kyzokus, Wizards, Astos, Ordeals, Ice Cave, power leveling, and every point after that too! Think about it: Worse attacks/defense, no Fast, no Warps, no BANE, no Fire/Lit2... it would be a nightmare. If you look at my route, I only spend about 10 minutes total in the entire 3-hour run in ZomBull battles. Even if theoretically this group could cut that time in half, I would only save 5 minutes. The amount of time lost with them in all of the examples above is probably in the range of a hour or two, seriously.

- Level 11-12 from Zombulls?
Nope, not worth it. The goal of my first 1 hour of the game is to get to the EYE farming as quickly and efficiently as possible. EYE farming is exponentially more efficient than Zombull farming. I could probably get 3x the experience and gold from killing EYE's than ZomBulls, so because it is possible to get to the EYE's with ProRings at level 9, you can be damn sure that I'm going to do it. In economics terms, the marginal cost/benefit ratio is much worse by farming ZomBulls than EYE's. If I get bad luck running, I reset.

- Life?
RaneofSOTN is right on the money: I can see where this would be worth it for a SS run where you can afford a death, but in a segmented run, Death = Reset. Yeah it would be handy if I got hit with a bunch of Sorcerers or if Kraken/Tiamat 2 gets a crit, but honestly Life would just save resets, not time. I can beat TOFR without dying, so why would I want to protect against something that I can just manipulate?

===============================

Updates:

1) I hope to post a revised route and delete my older two routes soon enough. I'm also in the process of making an excel spreadsheet of experience, gold, and fights per segment so I can easily make changes like these without recalculating every penny along the way.

2) I'm also plotting out exactly what point in the power cycle I need to be at the beginning of each segment. For example, if I do a hard reset (power off) at the beginning of Segment 1, I will always get two encounters on my way to Garland. However, if after the first battle I do a soft reset, I will always get one encounter because I start at "+1 encounters" in the power cycle. You can see where I could save tons of time by doing this.

3) I will also be adding about 10 segments to the end of the game. While it would be nice for the viewers to see some of the traveling done all in one segment, I will be avoiding all over-world encounters using segments once money is a non-issue after the EYE farming. If 10 segments means saving 1-2 minutes of encounters where I would just have to run away, I have to do it.

4) I'm also considering a suggestion that was thrown at us a while back of killing off one of the fighters. It wouldn't be worth it early game because I need the fighters through the ZomBulls and possibly through the Airship. However, as someone pointed out, at the end of the game after the power leveling, the fighter without the X-Cal/Mas really is worthless other than being a tank. Tiamat will die to Bane and Kraken is dead before I can cast Fast a third time and hit with it, so I really don't see much need to keep him. I also only get three Ribbons. It might be nice to have another person to take hits and run away, but I could save input, healing, and inventory by just letting the third one go. This could warrant a test.

5) I still do not have a DVD recorder, and I am not dealing with fucking VHS ever again. I know nothing about DVD recording, but here is my situation: I do not have cable/HD and I am playing with an NES II (top loader) and I have a newer copy of the game with a battery that has more life than the old one. Please suggest a good DVD recorder in the $100-125 price range that will fit my needs. Basically, my system looks like this + a regular TV. http://atariace.com/images/atariace.com/nintendo/images/top_loader/nes_top_load_package_zelda.jpg

Thank you all! I really hope we can spark some life back into this game which as Carcinogen put it, needs to get destroyed!

-WarMech

Annnnnnnnnd I'm back!  Did you miss me?   8)  It feels great to be back on the SDA forum, and I've finally reached a point in my life where I could potentially devote a significant amount of time to speedrunning again.  It's about time that we got a couple of good FF1 runs here and I think we've found the people to do it.  I recently did another test run to get back into playing this game again, and it wouldn't surprise me if we could shave another 10 minutes off this guy (maybe even more).  Sub 3-hours is now a guarantee.

===============================

Winkwonle: Welcome to the forum!  You obviously have a great deal of knowledge of the game, so I'm happy to hear your suggestions.  I never claimed that my route was perfect, so any advice is appreciated.  Likewise, if your run is verified or if you post it on the single-segment thread, I think we could really tear this game apart.  Anyway, in response to your questions:

- House/Silver Sword after beating Astos?
Interesting proposal, and I believe this may be a worthy suggestion.  That would save probably a minute and a half in backtracking to the inn, and a whole segment.  However, the cost is 3,000 which I may need.  What could be a solution is never getting the red mage a silver sword (he almost never uses it) and just giving him the one that I had when I get the flame sword in the ice cave.

- Level 17?
Actually, I more revised route that I use is EYE farming until I get to level 16.  This gives the Red Mage the two L5 spells which is needed for the Sea Shrine (two warps) and often for TOFR (one warp, one F3/Life).  It also gives me an extra Fast for TOFR.  I don't believe that the additional lost time it takes to get to level 16 would be gained by having one fewer Warp, one fewer Fast, and weaker fighters.

- Cure/Chain Mail?
This is a good suggestion that is also probably worth it.  The trick will be making sure my red mage doesn't get flattened by the Kyzokus and solo ZomBulls, but that is a reasonable amount of luck manipulation to add to those segments.

- Ice on ZomBulls?
Nope.  The Ice is necessary for Astos, not the Zombulls.  My fighters do an average of 2-3 damage on Astos, so the two Ices actually saves me a good two minutes and a huge headache trying to avoid the Rubs in that segment.

- Black Mage?
I actually did a test run using a BM instead of RM, and the real problem is how unbelievably weak he is at low levels (aka: the entire game).  He can easily get 1-2 HKO'd from Kyzokus, Zombulls, Wizards... vertually everything.  Also, the cures are incredibly useful, saving me time (buying heals is a pain in the ass) and money early game when I can't afford a thing.  Finally, he is useless after the PoP, which if I take your suggestion, won't even matter because I'll have all the Fire 2's I need without a trip to the Inn.  For example, he will be worthless in the EYE farming segment, and offers absolutely no advantages to the RM at almost every point in the game using this route.  Having Fire 2 a level earlier and the extra spells is nice, but the BM is just a walking liability to getting my ass kicked at a moment's notice.

- Have you considered FiFiWmWm?  
To put it bluntly, this is a terrible suggestion.  WM offers absolutely no advantages to the RM (or BM for that matter) for 95% of the game.  She would be useless against Garland, Kyzokus, Wizards, Astos, Ordeals, Ice Cave, power leveling, and every point after that too!  Think about it: Worse attacks/defense, no Fast, no Warps, no BANE, no Fire/Lit2... it would be a nightmare.  If you look at my route, I only spend about 10 minutes total in the entire 3-hour run in ZomBull battles.  Even if theoretically this group could cut that time in half, I would only save 5 minutes.  The amount of time lost with them in all of the examples above is probably in the range of a hour or two, seriously.

- Level 11-12 from Zombulls?
Nope, not worth it.  The goal of my first 1 hour of the game is to get to the EYE farming as quickly and efficiently as possible.  EYE farming is exponentially more efficient than Zombull farming.  I could probably get 3x the experience and gold from killing EYE's than ZomBulls, so because it is possible to get to the EYE's with ProRings at level 9, you can be damn sure that I'm going to do it.  In economics terms, the marginal cost/benefit ratio is much worse by farming ZomBulls than EYE's.  If I get bad luck running, I reset.

- Life?
RaneofSOTN is right on the money: I can see where this would be worth it for a SS run where you can afford a death, but in a segmented run, Death = Reset.  Yeah it would be handy if I got hit with a bunch of Sorcerers or if Kraken/Tiamat 2 gets a crit, but honestly Life would just save resets, not time.  I can beat TOFR without dying, so why would I want to protect against something that I can just manipulate?

===============================

Updates:

1) I hope to post a revised route and delete my older two routes soon enough.  I'm also in the process of making an excel spreadsheet of experience, gold, and fights per segment so I can easily make changes like these without recalculating every penny along the way.

2) I'm also plotting out exactly what point in the power cycle I need to be at the beginning of each segment.  For example, if I do a hard reset (power off) at the beginning of Segment 1, I will always get two encounters on my way to Garland.  However, if after the first battle I do a soft reset, I will always get one encounter because I start at "+1 encounters" in the power cycle.  You can see where I could save tons of time by doing this.

3) I will also be adding about 10 segments to the end of the game.  While it would be nice for the viewers to see some of the traveling done all in one segment, I will be avoiding all over-world encounters using segments once money is a non-issue after the EYE farming.  If 10 segments means saving 1-2 minutes of encounters where I would just have to run away, I have to do it.

4) I'm also considering a suggestion that was thrown at us a while back of killing off one of the fighters.  It wouldn't be worth it early game because I need the fighters through the ZomBulls and possibly through the Airship.  However, as someone pointed out, at the end of the game after the power leveling, the fighter without the X-Cal/Mas really is worthless other than being a tank.  Tiamat will die to Bane and Kraken is dead before I can cast Fast a third time and hit with it, so I really don't see much need to keep him.  I also only get three Ribbons.  It might be nice to have another person to take hits and run away, but I could save input, healing, and inventory by just letting the third one go.  This could warrant a test.

5) I still do not have a DVD recorder, and I am not dealing with fucking VHS ever again.  I know nothing about DVD recording, but here is my situation:  I do not have cable/HD and I am playing with an NES II (top loader) and I have a newer copy of the game with a battery that has more life than the old one.  Please suggest a good DVD recorder in the $100-125 price range that will fit my needs.  Basically, my system looks like this + a regular TV.  http://atariace.com/images/atariace.com/nintendo/images/top_loader/nes_top_load_package_zelda.jpg

Thank you all!  I really hope we can spark some life back into this game which as Carcinogen put it, needs to get destroyed!

-WarMech

RaneofSOTN

2009-11-12 11:46:49 pm

I want off the ride....

Quote from WarMech:

5) I still do not have a DVD recorder, and I am not dealing with fucking VHS ever again. I know nothing about DVD recording, but here is my situation: I do not have cable/HD and I am playing with an NES II (top loader) and I have a newer copy of the game with a battery that has more life than the old one. Please suggest a good DVD recorder in the $100-125 price range that will fit my needs. Basically, my system looks like this + a regular TV. http://atariace.com/images/atariace.com/nintendo/images/top_loader/nes_top_load_package_zelda.jpg

Thank you all! I really hope we can spark some life back into this game which as Carcinogen put it, needs to get destroyed!

-WarMech

Unfortunately Warmech, i believe SDA quality standards dont allow for RF cause its a bit wonky and doesn't record that cleanly. Model 2 NES' dont have the ability to output in composite, so you are just under the quality standards. But if you want to just record to youtube it; go for it!

Sorry but I dont have much on a DVD recorder as I use my room mates with a HDD...

[quote="WarMech"]
5) I still do not have a DVD recorder, and I am not dealing with fucking VHS ever again.  I know nothing about DVD recording, but here is my situation:  I do not have cable/HD and I am playing with an NES II (top loader) and I have a newer copy of the game with a battery that has more life than the old one.  Please suggest a good DVD recorder in the $100-125 price range that will fit my needs.  Basically, my system looks like this + a regular TV.  http://atariace.com/images/atariace.com/nintendo/images/top_loader/nes_top_load_package_zelda.jpg

Thank you all!  I really hope we can spark some life back into this game which as Carcinogen put it, needs to get destroyed!

-WarMech
[/quote]
Unfortunately Warmech, i believe SDA quality standards dont allow for RF cause its a bit wonky and doesn't record that cleanly. Model 2 NES' dont have the ability to output in composite, so you are just under the quality standards. But if you want to just record to youtube it; go for it!

Sorry but I dont have much on a DVD recorder as I use my room mates with a HDD...