Final Fantasy 1 - Segmented (Run Submitted!)

2010-03-14 03:28:44 pm

Yes, you can get petrified on the earth floor from GrMedusae. But it seems a lot less safe. In a multi-segment, I would definitely do that. As a minor consideration, protecting the mages during the first few floors also has some advantages. The Phantom can do nasty damage from physical attacks. There are also a lot of dragons that split their damage on the whole team, so the less team members, the less Heal potions wasted.

To FionordeQuester: (doing this by memory here)

For Lich2, the only thing to remember is to give Ribbons to active party members (non-petrified, non-dead). This prevents the spells Stop and Zap! from working.

For Kary2, just fight repeatedly with the fighters. If you have other active non-fighter party members, then use White shirt and/or Defense and/or Ruse. Kary won't hurt your fighters, but she can drop a mage in one attack.

Kraken2 is the only boss fight that I can't guarantee to pass safely, and the only one for which I allow myself to use Fast charges. The first fighter should use Defense two times before starting to hit. The second fighter should fight invariably with Xcalber. There are two possibilities here:
- if both mages are active (that is, Lich2 killed the red, so the white was unpetrified to revive him), then use one charge of Fast on the second fighter, then Ruse, Ruse, and Thor repeatedly. Have the white mage use White shirt invariably. Chances are that one mage will be killed, but not both. If the red dies early, start using Ruse with the white mage.
- if the red mage is active (and the white mage is still petrified), then you don't have to worry about the safety of the red mage. Use Defense two times with the first fighter, fight with the second fighter, and use the White shirt repeatedly with the red mage. It is very unlikely that anything goes wrong. If the first fighter dies early, hopefully use Ruse with the second fighter once (your only charge), or pray.

For Tiamat2, you should have Masmune (4 hits), Xcalber (4 hits), and Sun (3 hits). Fight+fight+fight+heal staff. If something goes wrong, it's possible to spend a charge of Hel2 here. It is very unlikely that Tiamat2 will attempt physical attacks on both your mages. She doesn't really attack often. You may notice that the red mage sucks. Well. Fight anyway, you may get luckier.

To Tuff_fish:

The other videos are coming, don't worry. I put one video per day on average because it's really slow and I don't want to check every hour to see if it's finished uploading.

I wanted to wait to answer you until I had got some time to try your suggestions in a semi-serious test run. I'm still planning to do that sometime soon.

By the way, about these dwarves' chests, my considerations were mainly concerning extra trips to downtown Pravoka, which seem to take valuable time. After beating Astos, the lack of Ice spell is not really relevant, and Short swords neither. I was thinking that I'd be great if just after beating Bikke I could buy everything I needed in Pravoka.

Also, planning in details earlier experience gains may benefit a lot from battle counting. While we're at it, it would be great to determine exactly where to begin the game in the 256-entry random encounter table. An SDA moderator said that it was OK to start the run on Reset instead of Power, so it's possible to force the table to be aligned to any particular entry before starting. (Testing it is a pain, though.)

Yes, you can get petrified on the earth floor from GrMedusae. But it seems a lot less safe. In a multi-segment, I would definitely do that. As a minor consideration, protecting the mages during the first few floors also has some advantages. The Phantom can do nasty damage from physical attacks. There are also a lot of dragons that split their damage on the whole team, so the less team members, the less Heal potions wasted.

To FionordeQuester: (doing this by memory here)

For Lich2, the only thing to remember is to give Ribbons to active party members (non-petrified, non-dead). This prevents the spells Stop and Zap! from working.

For Kary2, just fight repeatedly with the fighters. If you have other active non-fighter party members, then use White shirt and/or Defense and/or Ruse. Kary won't hurt your fighters, but she can drop a mage in one attack.

Kraken2 is the only boss fight that I can't guarantee to pass safely, and the only one for which I allow myself to use Fast charges. The first fighter should use Defense two times before starting to hit. The second fighter should fight invariably with Xcalber. There are two possibilities here:
- if both mages are active (that is, Lich2 killed the red, so the white was unpetrified to revive him), then use one charge of Fast on the second fighter, then Ruse, Ruse, and Thor repeatedly. Have the white mage use White shirt invariably. Chances are that one mage will be killed, but not both. If the red dies early, start using Ruse with the white mage.
- if the red mage is active (and the white mage is still petrified), then you don't have to worry about the safety of the red mage. Use Defense two times with the first fighter, fight with the second fighter, and use the White shirt repeatedly with the red mage. It is very unlikely that anything goes wrong. If the first fighter dies early, hopefully use Ruse with the second fighter once (your only charge), or pray.

For Tiamat2, you should have Masmune (4 hits), Xcalber (4 hits), and Sun (3 hits). Fight+fight+fight+heal staff. If something goes wrong, it's possible to spend a charge of Hel2 here. It is very unlikely that Tiamat2 will attempt physical attacks on both your mages. She doesn't really attack often. You may notice that the red mage sucks. Well. Fight anyway, you may get luckier.

To Tuff_fish:

The other videos are coming, don't worry. I put one video per day on average because it's really slow and I don't want to check every hour to see if it's finished uploading.

I wanted to wait to answer you until I had got some time to try your suggestions in a semi-serious test run. I'm still planning to do that sometime soon.

By the way, about these dwarves' chests, my considerations were mainly concerning extra trips to downtown Pravoka, which seem to take valuable time. After beating Astos, the lack of Ice spell is not really relevant, and Short swords neither. I was thinking that I'd be great if just after beating Bikke I could buy everything I needed in Pravoka.

Also, planning in details earlier experience gains may benefit a lot from battle counting. While we're at it, it would be great to determine exactly where to begin the game in the 256-entry random encounter table. An SDA moderator said that it was OK to start the run on Reset instead of Power, so it's possible to force the table to be aligned to any particular entry before starting. (Testing it is a pain, though.)

FionordeQuester

2010-03-14 06:25:27 pm

So, you're not worried at all about Lich2 and his Nuke charges of death?

Winkwonle

2010-03-14 11:12:07 pm

Lich2 never kills fighters, which have between 400 and 430 hp at that point (Nuke does around 350 but never more than 400).

Tuff_fish

2010-03-15 11:25:47 am

Quote:

Also, planning in details earlier experience gains may benefit a lot from battle counting. While we're at it, it would be great to determine exactly where to begin the game in the 256-entry random encounter table. An SDA moderator said that it was OK to start the run on Reset instead of Power, so it's possible to force the table to be aligned to any particular entry before starting. (Testing it is a pain, though.)

I'm a little skeptical of this for practical reasons-- having to force the random encounter table forward after every restart seems like it would be disheartening and impractical. Maybe it would be doable if you had multiple 'acceptable' places in the table where you could start, or if it was close to the beginning. Otherwise starting from power off might just be the most logical choice by default.

Also, running through the rest of the game, and ToFR in particular, I realized how much equipment swapping you could do to optimize everything, and obviously there are changes you can (have to) make depending on which members of the party are active.

One 'f me to tears' moment for me: The red wizard can equip the zeus gauntlet, which has several implications. One is that if you're picking up the procape in the sky castle then a proring is largely unnecessary. The proring is a 2 absorb improvement though, and you have thor's hammer and other attacking items by then.

[quote]Also, planning in details earlier experience gains may benefit a lot from battle counting. While we're at it, it would be great to determine exactly where to begin the game in the 256-entry random encounter table. An SDA moderator said that it was OK to start the run on Reset instead of Power, so it's possible to force the table to be aligned to any particular entry before starting. (Testing it is a pain, though.)[/quote]
I'm a little skeptical of this for practical reasons-- having to force the random encounter table forward after every restart seems like it would be disheartening and impractical.  Maybe it would be doable if you had multiple 'acceptable' places in the table where you could start, or if it was close to the beginning.  Otherwise starting from power off might just be the most logical choice by default.

Also, running through the rest of the game, and ToFR in particular, I realized how much equipment swapping you could do to optimize everything, and obviously there are changes you can (have to) make depending on which members of the party are active.

One 'f me to tears' moment for me: The red wizard can equip the zeus gauntlet, which has several implications.  One is that if you're picking up the procape in the sky castle then a proring is largely unnecessary.  The proring is a 2 absorb improvement though, and you have thor's hammer and other attacking items by then.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-15 02:25:25 pm

What are all the examples of optimizing you can think of?

Tuff_fish

2010-03-15 07:58:47 pm

Wink listed some good ones going through the four fiends in ToFR.

I think I'd keep the first fighter equipped with Dragon A, Aegis S, Heal H, and Proring unless you're specifically needing the ribbon for something.

You can swap stuff around so you're able to use heal helm - heal staff - white shirt repeatedly should the situation arise.

Or swap the attacking items around depending on the situation, especially in the ToFR where you may have 3 OR 4 active party members and the weaknesses of enemies on different floors vary greatly.

If agama farming is worked into the route then the FFR should attack and the white should mostly use heal staff, sometimes zeus.

I think for the MOST part the white mage will have the zeus gauntlet for most of the game but in the ice cave I give it to the red sometimes because there are so many undead in there and the white is a good attacker with harm/hrm2.

Those are just the ones that popped into my head..

FionordeQuester

2010-03-15 09:01:47 pm

What I'm wondering is how does one use the Heal Helmet and Staff? Not only do they have long animations, but it seems to me like the Fighter would be better off running away or attacking rather than using the Heal Helmet.

Tuff_fish

2010-03-15 09:41:22 pm

Use the heal staff early and often when you get it. It goes to the red or the white, depending on the situation. It's incredibly useful.

The heal helm doesn't get used as much but the first one isn't out of the way (very close to the aegis shield), replaces the opal helmet on your fighter with the dragon armor/aegis shield, and might save a good run in the ToFR.

That's how I do it anyway.. I'm not sure about winkwonle.

What would your recommendation(s) be?

Lenophis

2010-03-15 10:53:41 pm

0-10

Quote from Tuff_fish:

Use the heal staff early and often when you get it. It goes to the red or the white, depending on the situation. It's incredibly ~~useful~~ necessary.

That sounds about right. Grin

Quote:

The heal helm doesn't get used as much but the first one isn't out of the way (very close to the aegis shield), replaces the opal helmet on your fighter with the dragon armor/aegis shield, and might save a good run in the ToFR.

The 2 defense points lost will not make any difference at that point, so it's definitely worth picking up if you're next to it.

Quote from FionordeQuester:

What I'm wondering is how does one use the Heal Helmet and Staff?

Quote:

Not only do they have long animations, but it seems to me like the Fighter would be better off running away or attacking rather than using the Heal Helmet.

The first few floors of the last dungeon can be a run killer, because a ton of stuff plain hurts (gas dragons, Lich) or can really hurt you because of the MT stuff (frost dragons, chimeras, mages). It's conceivable that everyone can lose 200 HP before you get to the stairs on the first floor. If you relied strictly on heal potions, you used up 1/3 of your supply before you even got in the front door, so to speak. Cry

[quote="Tuff_fish"]Use the heal staff early and often when you get it.  It goes to the red or the white, depending on the situation.  It's incredibly [s]useful[/s] necessary.[/quote]
That sounds about right. ;D

[quote]The heal helm doesn't get used as much but the first one isn't out of the way (very close to the aegis shield), replaces the opal helmet on your fighter with the dragon armor/aegis shield, and might save a good run in the ToFR.[/quote]
The 2 defense points lost will not make any difference at that point, so it's definitely worth picking up if you're next to it.

[quote="FionordeQuester"]What I'm wondering is how does one use the Heal Helmet and Staff?[/quote]
 ???

[quote]Not only do they have long animations, but it seems to me like the Fighter would be better off running away or attacking rather than using the Heal Helmet.[/quote]
The first few floors of the last dungeon can be a run killer, because a ton of stuff plain hurts (gas dragons, Lich) or can really hurt you because of the MT stuff (frost dragons, chimeras, mages). It's conceivable that everyone can lose 200 HP before you get to the stairs on the first floor. If you relied strictly on heal potions, you used up 1/3 of your supply before you even got in the front door, so to speak. :'(

FionordeQuester

2010-03-15 11:07:04 pm

Lol, what I mean, is, when is it more beneficial to use the Heal Helmet than it is to attack? That's what I meant when I said, how do I use it? Like, how do I use it WELL?

Tuff_fish

2010-03-16 12:04:10 am

If you're low on HP, max out evasion with white shirt (and maybe defense sword) against a single enemy that only attacks, then use heal helm/heal staff repeatedly to get HP back up fairly quickly.

Otherwise 99 heal potions may or may not be enough, and 4 hours into a single-segment run that requires many, many restarts probably isn't the best time to roll the dice on it.

Tuff_fish

2010-03-16 12:08:02 am

Lich2 alone is usually good for 30+ heal potions if you go that route...

In practice you could probably use heal potions as much as you can and if you see yourself running short, you could do the heal helm/staff + white shirt trick...

Winkwonle

2010-03-16 01:15:52 am

I'm not sure exactly how the Heal equipment should be used in the ToFR, I must say. When playing casually, I use the Fire floor to replenish HP from Lich, since the monsters there are rather inoffensive. It is true what Lenophis said about Gas Ds: 3-4 of them can kill your entire party on the spot, of leave you with one weak survivor who'll then have to make it to Lich. That does consume a lot of Heal potions. Apart from battle counting, there are not so many solutions to that problem. Generally, I find that two fighters alone will survive not too bad and receive acceptable total damage. Two fighters + 1 red will survive even more often, in fact pretty much all the time, but will accumulate a higher total of damage. I'm not entirely sure yet of what is better between one petrified mage and two. In the run I'm posting on youtube, I went for only one petrified character.

To answer FionordeQuester's question on when to use Heal equipment, I just have one little thing to add to what other people have said. It's easy to overheal. The right thing for an SS run is to find a good balance between speed and risk; not necessarily to minimize risk. I know this is pretty obvious, so here is a concrete example. The elemental dungeons can be done pretty much without spending a single heal potion. Practically, you'll get occasional bad lucks that will require special intervention, but generally speaking, the fighters will find their way through regular monsters without really getting damaged, and how much hp the mages have left for the bosses is not very relevant (they get OHKO'd anyway). Using the Heal helmet with fighters is pretty much a ToFR-only behavior. But it is so useful there that it pains me not to pick up both Heal helmets.

Tuff_fish, you're the guy I want on my FF1 research team! (And also WarMech, obviously.) It'd be so nice to organize an FF1 weekend someday with dedicated people from the forum, in some basement with a couple of NESes and emulators. I know it'll never happen, but I'm just letting the thought float around for the fun of it. Anyway, I agree with you for most of what you said so far. 4 hour deep into a lucky single-segment run is not the time to roll the dice. I also throw out the Opal helmet for the Heal helmet. I don't keep the Zeus gauntlet instead of the ProRing, though. I used to, and I could be easily convinced of doing it again.

(Someone please say it if we're flooding this segmented run thread with too much single-segment discussions.)

I'm not sure exactly how the Heal equipment should be used in the ToFR, I must say. When playing casually, I use the Fire floor to replenish HP from Lich, since the monsters there are rather inoffensive. It is true what Lenophis said about Gas Ds: 3-4 of them can kill your entire party on the spot, of leave you with one weak survivor who'll then have to make it to Lich. That does consume a lot of Heal potions. Apart from battle counting, there are not so many solutions to that problem. Generally, I find that two fighters alone will survive not too bad and receive acceptable total damage. Two fighters + 1 red will survive even more often, in fact pretty much all the time, but will accumulate a higher total of damage. I'm not entirely sure yet of what is better between one petrified mage and two. In the run I'm posting on youtube, I went for only one petrified character.

To answer FionordeQuester's question on when to use Heal equipment, I just have one little thing to add to what other people have said. It's easy to overheal. The right thing for an SS run is to find a good balance between speed and risk; not necessarily to minimize risk. I know this is pretty obvious, so here is a concrete example. The elemental dungeons can be done pretty much without spending a single heal potion. Practically, you'll get occasional bad lucks that will require special intervention, but generally speaking, the fighters will find their way through regular monsters without really getting damaged, and how much hp the mages have left for the bosses is not very relevant (they get OHKO'd anyway). Using the Heal helmet with fighters is pretty much a ToFR-only behavior. But it is so useful there that it pains me not to pick up both Heal helmets.

Tuff_fish, you're the guy I want on my FF1 research team! (And also WarMech, obviously.) It'd be so nice to organize an FF1 weekend someday with dedicated people from the forum, in some basement with a couple of NESes and emulators. I know it'll never happen, but I'm just letting the thought float around for the fun of it. Anyway, I agree with you for most of what you said so far. 4 hour deep into a lucky single-segment run is not the time to roll the dice. I also throw out the Opal helmet for the Heal helmet. I don't keep the Zeus gauntlet instead of the ProRing, though. I used to, and I could be easily convinced of doing it again.

(Someone please say it if we're flooding this segmented run thread with too much single-segment discussions.)

FionordeQuester

2010-03-17 03:55:11 pm

What advantage did you feel that the FFRW party had over the FFRR party? I'm just curious.

Tuff_fish

2010-03-17 06:12:41 pm

Fionorde, check the end of page 14/start of page 15

Wink,

You definitely want Warmech on your research team before me. I've beaten this game many, many times over the years, but most of my knowledge about FF1 has come from reading this thread and some of the guides linked here (mostly dealing with the formulas of how damage is calculated, etc.)

I've watched through part 18 of your run and I think it looks quite good. I have several comments but I'll wait until you're finished uploading it to try to keep everything as organized as possible. I did notice that you already did many of the things I recommended (I was going off the guide you wrote, not on any videos), and some other stuff probably wasn't all that helpful. I figured if I threw a ton of ideas out there some of them would be bound to stick Grin

Anyway, I have a new team and a slightly different route that I want to propose that I think has a lot of potential. I can't do it tonight because it needs at least a small amount of testing, and I have a lot of green beer to drink tonight. Hopefully tomorrow though. Cheers Grin

Fionorde, check the end of page 14/start of page 15

Wink,

You definitely want Warmech on your research team before me.  I've beaten this game many, many times over the years, but most of my knowledge about FF1 has come from reading this thread and some of the guides linked here (mostly dealing with the formulas of how damage is calculated, etc.)

I've watched through part 18 of your run and I think it looks quite good.  I have several comments but I'll wait until you're finished uploading it to try to keep everything as organized as possible.  I did notice that you already did many of the things I recommended (I was going off the guide you wrote, not on any videos), and some other stuff probably wasn't all that helpful.  I figured if I threw a ton of ideas out there some of them would be bound to stick  ;D

Anyway, I have a new team and a slightly different route that I want to propose that I think has a lot of potential.  I can't do it tonight because it needs at least a small amount of testing, and I have a lot of green beer to drink tonight.  Hopefully tomorrow though.  Cheers  ;D

FionordeQuester

2010-03-17 09:22:19 pm

I did, he said all the problems with the FFFR team, but I don't know about the problems with the FFRR team. I ask because I recommended the FFRW team to a user on Gamefaqs asking what party he should use, and considering the FFFR and FFRR are known as the most popular teams, I want to make sure my reasoning is correct when I state the FFRW as the greatest team.

Winkwonle

2010-03-17 10:42:48 pm

I don't know if the FFRW team is the greatest one in general. I said I thought it was for a single-segment run. A lot of other teams may get you through the game faster if you're allowed to reset and try again. The ability to cast Life at low level is a lot less useful.

Also, if you're not aiming for speed, considering the amount of exp farming that you're allowing yourself is important. For a casual player, it is normal to beat the game at such levels as 25, and even have access to Level-8 spell slots (i.e. having access to an Inn at level 25).

As far as speed running is concerned, I'll try to put some ideas as to why the FFRW team is not strictly inferior to the FFRR team. I won't affirm that it's definitely better though, because I'm still considering the FFRR team as a candidate for future attempts. So let's see:
- W is cheaper than R, especially at the beginning where money is critical. You won't have budget for two Level-2 spells unless you're willing to waste some time, so better not count on the 2xIce option for Astos. Going for 1xMute will put the FFRR team about at the same level as the FFRW team for this part of the game. Ruse against the Wizards makes the W even a little better than an R, I think. Also, W can use Harm for early undeads, which is great. Not much of a difference anyway. Let's say both teams will perform about as good here.
- W is better for farming exp against Mummies. About as good against ZomBULLs, but I don't go there (R is better for other PNEOP encounters for that matter).
- W is way better in the Earth cave. There are a lot of dangerous undeads, and the R just has so few Level-3 spell charges that he is not reliable at all.
- W and R are about the same for Ordeals and the Ice cave. Maybe R is slightly better because he has a few more points of HP. That's not significant, so let's call it even here too.
- Since I already have another red mage in my team, having access to Fast and Warp for further parts of the game does not depend on the choice of the fourth character.
- R has Bane later on. Two characters with access to that spell as well as the Bane sword itself makes it worth to bet on Bane for killing Tiamat (the first time around). I don't think that it's worth it otherwise. Good point for the R here, maybe saving 1 minute of battle and 1 minute of buying Heal potions to replace those normally used in preparation for that battle.
- W has access to Hel2 eventually (normally happens a little after class change). This is the best healing spell in the game, as it behaves like Hel3 due to a bug.
- Having two R's around in the ToFR will grant you access to more Fast charges, which in turn makes your life easier for bosses. I think mainly of Kary and Tiamat, which are easy enough to not require Fast but can occasionally get lucky and do some damage.
- Chaos will be a little easier. First turn will go: fight, fight, Fast (1st), Fast (2nd). Fight, fight, Fast (self), Fast (self). Fight, Fight, Fight, Fight. Etc. There should be a sufficient rate of damage this way to avoid the complications that the FFRW team normally try to handle. It is unlikely that Chaos will have time to cast Cur4.
- Finally, in general, the R will do a little more damage. Indeed, some monsters are resistant to all elements, making magic items less effective than physical attacks in the case of a red mage, whereas the white mage is stuck with the magic item option. However, I don't see why you couldn't just give the Heal staff to the white mage and use it all of the time. Anyway, I will admit that there is a slight discomfort here, making R better in this regard.

Overall, R will do more damage and W will increase your chances of surviving dungeons by a larger margin. Mainly because of the spell Life, but also because of Hel2 and earlier on because of a more durable sustainability to undead monsters. This "overall" reason is why I went for the FFRW team for a single-segment run.

I did a successful single-segment run with FFFR also, and recorded it on three DVDs in the intent of submitting it to SDA. However, the time is almost 20 minutes more. Also, it required a higher amount of retries and overall luck. Lich and Astos in particular were a real pain.

I feel like I haven't given its chance to the FFRR team. I just wanted to at least get one run working before trying faster, less stable teams. When I saw that FFFR was too unstable, I wanted to go a whole notch towards safety so I went for FFRW. It's clear that FFRR would merit at least a serious try before getting dismissed.

If you would absolutely have to give bad reviews to the FFRR team for a user who doesn't know a lot on the game, then I'd say it's main weakness is that it's got only two kinds of characters. This makes easier by a smaller margin the points in the game where these characters perform best. On the other hand, it creates a much higher quantity of places in the game where your team will be misadapted. In the case of FFRR, these places are, in decreasing order of misadaptation: the Earth cave (lots of undeads), the Waterfall (because R won't have Warp (unless extensively farming) but a black wizard would), the Sea shrine (because Ghosts will likely kill one of your characters, so having Life will help a lot), and finally the Marsh cave (because of a slight need for Harm).

Does that answer your question?

I don't know if the FFRW team is the greatest one in general. I said I thought it was for a single-segment run. A lot of other teams may get you through the game faster if you're allowed to reset and try again. The ability to cast Life at low level is a lot less useful.

Also, if you're not aiming for speed, considering the amount of exp farming that you're allowing yourself is important. For a casual player, it is normal to beat the game at such levels as 25, and even have access to Level-8 spell slots (i.e. having access to an Inn at level 25).

As far as speed running is concerned, I'll try to put some ideas as to why the FFRW team is not strictly inferior to the FFRR team. I won't affirm that it's definitely better though, because I'm still considering the FFRR team as a candidate for future attempts. So let's see:
- W is cheaper than R, especially at the beginning where money is critical. You won't have budget for two Level-2 spells unless you're willing to waste some time, so better not count on the 2xIce option for Astos. Going for 1xMute will put the FFRR team about at the same level as the FFRW team for this part of the game. Ruse against the Wizards makes the W even a little better than an R, I think. Also, W can use Harm for early undeads, which is great. Not much of a difference anyway. Let's say both teams will perform about as good here.
- W is better for farming exp against Mummies. About as good against ZomBULLs, but I don't go there (R is better for other PNEOP encounters for that matter).
- W is way better in the Earth cave. There are a lot of dangerous undeads, and the R just has so few Level-3 spell charges that he is not reliable at all.
- W and R are about the same for Ordeals and the Ice cave. Maybe R is slightly better because he has a few more points of HP. That's not significant, so let's call it even here too.
- Since I already have another red mage in my team, having access to Fast and Warp for further parts of the game does not depend on the choice of the fourth character.
- R has Bane later on. Two characters with access to that spell as well as the Bane sword itself makes it worth to bet on Bane for killing Tiamat (the first time around). I don't think that it's worth it otherwise. Good point for the R here, maybe saving 1 minute of battle and 1 minute of buying Heal potions to replace those normally used in preparation for that battle.
- W has access to Hel2 eventually (normally happens a little after class change). This is the best healing spell in the game, as it behaves like Hel3 due to a bug.
- Having two R's around in the ToFR will grant you access to more Fast charges, which in turn makes your life easier for bosses. I think mainly of Kary and Tiamat, which are easy enough to not require Fast but can occasionally get lucky and do some damage.
- Chaos will be a little easier. First turn will go: fight, fight, Fast (1st), Fast (2nd). Fight, fight, Fast (self), Fast (self). Fight, Fight, Fight, Fight. Etc. There should be a sufficient rate of damage this way to avoid the complications that the FFRW team normally try to handle. It is unlikely that Chaos will have time to cast Cur4.
- Finally, in general, the R will do a little more damage. Indeed, some monsters are resistant to all elements, making magic items less effective than physical attacks in the case of a red mage, whereas the white mage is stuck with the magic item option. However, I don't see why you couldn't just give the Heal staff to the white mage and use it all of the time. Anyway, I will admit that there is a slight discomfort here, making R better in this regard.

Overall, R will do more damage and W will increase your chances of surviving dungeons by a larger margin. Mainly because of the spell Life, but also because of Hel2 and earlier on because of a more durable sustainability to undead monsters. This "overall" reason is why I went for the FFRW team for a single-segment run.

I did a successful single-segment run with FFFR also, and recorded it on three DVDs in the intent of submitting it to SDA. However, the time is almost 20 minutes more. Also, it required a higher amount of retries and overall luck. Lich and Astos in particular were a real pain.

I feel like I haven't given its chance to the FFRR team. I just wanted to at least get one run working before trying faster, less stable teams. When I saw that FFFR was too unstable, I wanted to go a whole notch towards safety so I went for FFRW. It's clear that FFRR would merit at least a serious try before getting dismissed.

If you would absolutely have to give bad reviews to the FFRR team for a user who doesn't know a lot on the game, then I'd say it's main weakness is that it's got only two kinds of characters. This makes easier by a smaller margin the points in the game where these characters perform best. On the other hand, it creates a much higher quantity of places in the game where your team will be misadapted. In the case of FFRR, these places are, in decreasing order of misadaptation: the Earth cave (lots of undeads), the Waterfall (because R won't have Warp (unless extensively farming) but a black wizard would), the Sea shrine (because Ghosts will likely kill one of your characters, so having Life will help a lot), and finally the Marsh cave (because of a slight need for Harm).

Does that answer your question?

Lenophis

2010-03-17 11:01:35 pm

0-10

I honestly don't see an advantage of a FFRR team vs a FFRW team. By the time you are ready to beat the game, the red's and white's HP start to even out, and white is about to overtake red. A second red would add a minimal amount to physical damage output, and would give less towards healing. At that point, your fighters are going to be your main damage-doers.

Maybe I'm not looking at something correctly?

Winkwonle

2010-03-18 12:58:56 am

It's not all the way in favor of FFRW either. Here are some advantages that I find of FFRR over FFRW:
- if you manage to fit 2xIce in your Pravoka budget, then Astos becomes really easy and quick to beat. Otherwise he has close to 50% chance of beating you (that's just ~30 minutes in, so it's not so troubling). Beating Astos with Mute took me 2 minutes in the run I posted on YouTube, and it can easily take sub 1 minute with elemental spells.
- before Melmond (i.e. before Astos), R has better armor and just as many Cure charges, making him more stable than W. Also, on the rare occasions where you'll fight regular non-undead monsters before class change, R will not suck entirely at doing physical damage, whereas W will. This may save a little time, but it's hard to estimate how much (maybe a minute or so).
- Fir2 is better than Hrm2 even against undead enemies. This can help significantly for Lich (provided that you still have Level-3 spell charges, which is unlikely with FFRR). However, except for Lich, it doesn't really make a difference. Undead monsters are most often killed in one hit with Hrm2 anyway.
- a little more HP will get you through R.Goyle or ManCat groups in Ordeals sometimes.
- double Fast will accelerate boss battles after class change (that R just gets access to Level-4 spell slots at level 10). My estimates would be that this can save maybe up to one minute.
- double Warp will give you full time saving options at level 15 instead of 16. I believe this is worth 30 seconds or so.

Globally, you may save around 5-10 minutes on boss battles and faster battle strategies. It may be worth it, I don't know. The run already requires high luck to succeed, so I don't know if asking for more is a good idea. I think it's worth a small debate.

It's not all the way in favor of FFRW either. Here are some advantages that I find of FFRR over FFRW:
- if you manage to fit 2xIce in your Pravoka budget, then Astos becomes really easy and quick to beat. Otherwise he has close to 50% chance of beating you (that's just ~30 minutes in, so it's not so troubling). Beating Astos with Mute took me 2 minutes in the run I posted on YouTube, and it can easily take sub 1 minute with elemental spells.
- before Melmond (i.e. before Astos), R has better armor and just as many Cure charges, making him more stable than W. Also, on the rare occasions where you'll fight regular non-undead monsters before class change, R will not suck entirely at doing physical damage, whereas W will. This may save a little time, but it's hard to estimate how much (maybe a minute or so).
- Fir2 is better than Hrm2 even against undead enemies. This can help significantly for Lich (provided that you still have Level-3 spell charges, which is unlikely with FFRR). However, except for Lich, it doesn't really make a difference. Undead monsters are most often killed in one hit with Hrm2 anyway.
- a little more HP will get you through R.Goyle or ManCat groups in Ordeals sometimes.
- double Fast will accelerate boss battles after class change (that R just gets access to Level-4 spell slots at level 10). My estimates would be that this can save maybe up to one minute.
- double Warp will give you full time saving options at level 15 instead of 16. I believe this is worth 30 seconds or so.

Globally, you may save around 5-10 minutes on boss battles and faster battle strategies. It may be worth it, I don't know. The run already requires high luck to succeed, so I don't know if asking for more is a good idea. I think it's worth a small debate.

Tuff_fish

2010-03-18 07:10:05 am

Different parties are ideal for different types of playthroughs.

Winkwonle explained it better than I could have, but it really is important to have a solid team to run this game in a single-segment where deaths/resets are not allowed. Otherwise, you just aren't going to be able to complete the game because there are so many potential run enders. If I had to emphasize anything he said, it's how important it is to have a plan vs undead. Otherwise, large packs of ghouls/geists might as well be sorcerers. HRM/HRM2 is certainly good for that.

TAS was done with a lone fighter essentially, Warmech was/is working on a segmented run with FFWB (which I'd love to talk about as well), and casual playthroughs and low level playthroughs are also significantly different.

With that being said, I think FFRR is a very good single-segment team. It's faster but riskier. FWIW I play on an emulator with frameskip, no savestates, but this is meant as a SS route.

FFRR, starting with power off:

- buy 4x rapier and 4x chain (way overpowered)
- go straight to garland, fight both 3-5 imp fights along the way (lvl 2)
- inn, buy 2x LIT
- run to pravoka, rearrange team as needed (everyone has 15 absorb)
- get into 2 ogre fight. (should be right before the town) fight fight lit lit, shouldn't be a problem. reset if only 1 ogre, a small problem
- kill pirates, level 3.
- inn, buy 2x ICE
- spam LIT/ICE in the water, inn when necessary. After you get the boat the encounters go something like shark/kyzokus/shark/shark with some possible red sahags thrown in. Leveling up to 4 is ridiculously fast with this strategy.
- Get dwarves chests when appropriate. Probably leave at level 3, get back at level 4.
- Buy 2x CURE, heals, pures, 1 tent, iron shield(s), wooden helm

- head to Marsh cave, use ice as needed but try to keep 3-4 shots each of LIT for wizards
- pick up short sword, copper bracelet, iron armor, house. blah blah blah
- fight fight lit lit vs wizards, be relentless. FFRW is better here with RUSE, no doubt.
- head to astos's castle, HOUSE outside
- astos goes down easy as long as red doesn't get RUB'd, but make sure both RDMs survive and are at level 6 or at least close.

- inn/church at elfland, matoya's cave, mystic key
- get elfland treasures, sell junk, buy 2x FIR2 and 2-3 softs
- no 2nd trip to astos's castle, no PoP, etc.
- get coneria treasure, sell junk, stock up on heals/pures (you'll probably only be able to afford 30-40 or so heal potions). Buy 2x FIRE
- dwarf cave, get the treasures/talk to the guy
- go to melmond, sell stuff, including silver armor. Keep dragon sword (to red mage).
- iron everything, both fighters. You may have to make a concession and keep the copper gauntlet on the 2nd fighter.
- buy 2x long swords for fighters

- levels should be at 5-6 for fighters, 6 for red mages.
- go through earth cave. pick up coral sword (to red mage, replaces short sword).
- weapons should be long swordx2, dragon sword, coral sword. iron everything on both fighters, chain shirts on reds
- all characters hit for 2 attacks
- fight when it seems logical to, use level 1 spell charges for CURE.
- wizards (no run encounter) usually go down 2 per turn
- save FIR2 charges for when absolutely necessary. Reds can often kill undeads in one attack, should the need arise.
- kill the vampire, no magic. very easy
- dash to rod and and back (very well may need a FIR2 charge here for ghouls/geists), skip titan's chests, HOUSE outside earth cave.

- run through earth cave again. this time the RDMs will be at level 7 so you have 4 total charges of FIR2.
- save 1 shot each of FIR2 and a few shots each of FIR for lich. This means 2 total FIR2s along the way in the earth cave. Reds can prevent stunlocks to an extent from the back row with coral/dragon swords.
- fight + fight + fir2 (fire) + fir2 (fire) against lich, should go down easy if you get there healthy. there's some danger with ice2.
- the rest of the game plays out similarly enough. there are lots of small advantages/disadvantages to both parties.

This route is extremely fast through the earth cave. Like you alluded to though, there are more potential run-enders here and the FFRW already requires a lot of luck to succeed. But... It's not as crazy as it looks.

Different parties are ideal for different types of playthroughs.

Winkwonle explained it better than I could have, but it really is important to have a solid team to run this game in a single-segment where deaths/resets are not allowed.  Otherwise, you just aren't going to be able to complete the game because there are so many potential run enders.  If I had to emphasize anything he said, it's how important it is to have a plan vs undead.  Otherwise, large packs of ghouls/geists might as well be sorcerers.  HRM/HRM2 is certainly good for that.

TAS was done with a lone fighter essentially, Warmech was/is working on a segmented run with FFWB (which I'd love to talk about as well), and casual playthroughs and low level playthroughs are also significantly different.

With that being said, I think FFRR is a very good single-segment team.  It's faster but riskier.  FWIW I play on an emulator with frameskip, no savestates, but this is meant as a SS route.

FFRR, starting with power off:

- buy 4x rapier and 4x chain (way overpowered)
- go straight to garland, fight both 3-5 imp fights along the way (lvl 2)
- inn, buy 2x LIT
- run to pravoka, rearrange team as needed (everyone has 15 absorb)
- get into 2 ogre fight. (should be right before the town)  fight fight lit lit, shouldn't be a problem. reset if only 1 ogre, a small problem
- kill pirates, level 3.
- inn, buy 2x ICE
- spam LIT/ICE in the water, inn when necessary.  After you get the boat the encounters go something like shark/kyzokus/shark/shark with some possible red sahags thrown in.  Leveling up to 4 is ridiculously fast with this strategy.
- Get dwarves chests when appropriate.  Probably leave at level 3, get back at level 4.
- Buy 2x CURE, heals, pures, 1 tent, iron shield(s), wooden helm

- head to Marsh cave, use ice as needed but try to keep 3-4 shots each of LIT for wizards
- pick up short sword, copper bracelet, iron armor, house. blah blah blah
- fight fight lit lit vs wizards, be relentless.  FFRW is better here with RUSE, no doubt.  
- head to astos's castle, HOUSE outside
- astos goes down easy as long as red doesn't get RUB'd, but make sure both RDMs survive and are at level 6 or at least close.

- inn/church at elfland, matoya's cave, mystic key
- get elfland treasures, sell junk, buy 2x FIR2 and 2-3 softs
- no 2nd trip to astos's castle, no PoP, etc.
- get coneria treasure, sell junk, stock up on heals/pures (you'll probably only be able to afford 30-40 or so heal potions). Buy 2x FIRE
- dwarf cave, get the treasures/talk to the guy
- go to melmond, sell stuff, including silver armor.  Keep dragon sword (to red mage).  
- iron everything, both fighters.  You may have to make a concession and keep the copper gauntlet on the 2nd fighter.
- buy 2x long swords for fighters

- levels should be at 5-6 for fighters, 6 for red mages.  
- go through earth cave.  pick up coral sword (to red mage, replaces short sword).  
- weapons should be long swordx2, dragon sword, coral sword. iron everything on both fighters, chain shirts on reds
- all characters hit for 2 attacks
- fight when it seems logical to, use level 1 spell charges for CURE.
- wizards (no run encounter) usually go down 2 per turn
- save FIR2 charges for when absolutely necessary.  Reds can often kill undeads in one attack, should the need arise.
- kill the vampire, no magic.  very easy
- dash to rod and and back (very well may need a FIR2 charge here for ghouls/geists), skip titan's chests, HOUSE outside earth cave.

- run through earth cave again. this time the RDMs will be at level 7 so you have 4 total charges of FIR2. 
- save 1 shot each of FIR2 and a few shots each of FIR for lich.  This means 2 total FIR2s along the way in the earth cave.  Reds can prevent stunlocks to an extent from the back row with coral/dragon swords. 
- fight + fight + fir2 (fire) + fir2 (fire) against lich, should go down easy if you get there healthy.  there's some danger with ice2.
- the rest of the game plays out similarly enough.  there are lots of small advantages/disadvantages to both parties.

This route is extremely fast through the earth cave.  Like you alluded to though, there are more potential run-enders here and the FFRW already requires a lot of luck to succeed.  But... It's not as crazy as it looks.

Winkwonle

2010-03-18 07:38:49 pm

Ok, your route looks very good! I played through it and thought it saved a lot of time for all the pre-Lich section of the game. The lack of CURE spell before Pravoka was a little frustrating, but acceptably so. The lack of CUR2 spell was very insignificant, since those Level-3 spell charges are so valuable for elemental spells. Astos was a real joke. So was Lich too, although I got wiped right after it by undead monsters for which I had no FIR2 spell charges left. Anyway, I didn't intend to pursue the game to the end.

The main problem I have with this route is that is relies entirely on the power cycle. Everything fits together very well if you do know what types of random encounters are coming up, and you very much need that 2 Ogre fight at the beginning. That may not have been mentioned a lot, but you should know that the power cycle is not reliable on a real NES. At least not on mine. In my experience, a fresh Power often places you at other offsets than 0 in the game's RNG table. For example, when battle counting I use to plan for a cycle starting at 96 and another one at 116. I don't know exactly why this happens. I don't even know if it happens on other people's cartridges. If you look at the first video of my run on YouTube, you'll notice that it's not a typical offset-0 cycle, although the run starts from a fresh Power.

Now one may say that all there is to do is restart until getting the right cycle. I suppose so, but the right cycle is not so frequent (I don't know, one in five games maybe). Also, if you're forcing 2 ogres, it can be frustrating to restart. If we're opening the whole question of where to begin in the power cycle, then I'm not sure that offset-0 is the best spot. It's unfortunate that the emulator does not behave like a real NES in that aspect.

Can anyone please confirm (or infirm) what I'm saying about power cycles? Please compare the first 5-6 fights (not around Coneria, they're almost always Imps) from a fresh Power on emulator, and on a real NES respectively, and check if they differ. Preferably start from a fresh New Game too. When I say that the battles differ, I mean that the types of monsters are entirely not the same. If the amount of enemies change but not their type, then it's probably the "same" encounter because those quantities get generated separately from the encounter cycle. Does that make any sense?

Just to end on a good note, I repeat: I love your route. I'm sure it's a huge time saver. Also, I've got nothing to prove redoing the run with FFRW, and I'd much rather do some other team if it's got potential for speed improvement. Thanks a lot for the detailed suggestion!

Ok, your route looks very good! I played through it and thought it saved a lot of time for all the pre-Lich section of the game. The lack of CURE spell before Pravoka was a little frustrating, but acceptably so. The lack of CUR2 spell was very insignificant, since those Level-3 spell charges are so valuable for elemental spells. Astos was a real joke. So was Lich too, although I got wiped right after it by undead monsters for which I had no FIR2 spell charges left. Anyway, I didn't intend to pursue the game to the end.

The main problem I have with this route is that is relies entirely on the power cycle. Everything fits together very well if you do know what types of random encounters are coming up, and you very much need that 2 Ogre fight at the beginning. That may not have been mentioned a lot, but you should know that the power cycle is not reliable on a real NES. At least not on mine. In my experience, a fresh Power often places you at other offsets than 0 in the game's RNG table. For example, when battle counting I use to plan for a cycle starting at 96 and another one at 116. I don't know exactly why this happens. I don't even know if it happens on other people's cartridges. If you look at the first video of my run on YouTube, you'll notice that it's not a typical offset-0 cycle, although the run starts from a fresh Power.

Now one may say that all there is to do is restart until getting the right cycle. I suppose so, but the right cycle is not so frequent (I don't know, one in five games maybe). Also, if you're forcing 2 ogres, it can be frustrating to restart. If we're opening the whole question of where to begin in the power cycle, then I'm not sure that offset-0 is the best spot. It's unfortunate that the emulator does not behave like a real NES in that aspect.

Can anyone please confirm (or infirm) what I'm saying about power cycles? Please compare the first 5-6 fights (not around Coneria, they're almost always Imps) from a fresh Power on emulator, and on a real NES respectively, and check if they differ. Preferably start from a fresh New Game too. When I say that the battles differ, I mean that the types of monsters are entirely not the same. If the amount of enemies change but not their type, then it's probably the "same" encounter because those quantities get generated separately from the encounter cycle. Does that make any sense?

Just to end on a good note, I repeat: I love your route. I'm sure it's a huge time saver. Also, I've got nothing to prove redoing the run with FFRW, and I'd much rather do some other team if it's got potential for speed improvement. Thanks a lot for the detailed suggestion!

ShinerCCC

2010-03-19 02:34:08 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Okay, even though I'm going on a trip for the weekend in 7 hours, I'm going to help with this run! Let's gather data from the copy of the game I have here, which is actually Quixim's and not mine.

If these fights are consistent with what you see, then I guess the NES starts on some arbitrary value...if not, I guess it uses garbage/uninitialized data, which would be random. I remember when planning my Final Fantasy Legend run VBA didn't behave the same as my GBA so I have to do all my testing in single-segment runs on GBA...oh well ._.

Fighter: Wink
Fighter: Leno
RedMage: WMek
RedMage: CCC

Bought rapiers and chains and wandered in the general direction of the Temple of Fiends.

Fight 1:
4 IMPs. Got into this fight right by the west coast with Corneria just out of sight or something. Got a first strike, but noticed my Response Rate was on 1 so I hit Reset. er, I cycled power instead.

Fight 1 (do-over):
3 IMPs, on some grass barely out of the northwestern edge of the forest surrounding Corneria. Didn't get far. No first strike. Wiped the floor with them anyway.

Fight 2:
5 IMPs, 2 squares away from coming out of the marsh.

Fight 3:
Garland. Maswhing A as I type this oh there he died. I think Leno took a hit.

oops I wasted 2 steps walking in the grey area of Corneria on the world map. I hope that doesn't break anything...
Fight 4:
3 IMPs in the forest bordering Corneria, this time on the northeastern corner. Let me cross the damn bridge already!

Fight 5:
5x WOLF, 1 GrWOLF. This was in the marsh, I'm touching the southern coastline. Um...I forgot how much HP a GrWOLF has so I'll just have one Fighter attack it.
...lol it took me 4 turns to win but I took nearly no damage.

Fight 6:
1x CREEP in the middle of the forest. I attack-spammed it and it barely died I think.

Fight 7:
2x CREEP. This was on the one step I made into grass out of the forest right before Pravoka. I am wondering if different terrain generates different encounters. I blasted each one with LIT and they didn't die.

I made it into Pravoka but clearly I haven't seen any OGREs. I'll pace around outside for "overtime" and see what pops up.

Fight 8:
2x OGREs. I searched the forest on purpose this time too. Hmm.
I did "fight fight lit lit" all on the same Ogre and it lived because one fighter Missed. Argh.

Level 3 was reached.

I'm tired. I hope this gets the ball rolling.

Okay, even though I'm going on a trip for the weekend in 7 hours, I'm going to help with this run! Let's gather data from the copy of the game I have here, which is actually Quixim's and not mine.

If these fights are consistent with what you see, then I guess the NES starts on some arbitrary value...if not, I guess it uses garbage/uninitialized data, which would be random. I remember when planning my Final Fantasy Legend run VBA didn't behave the same as my GBA so I have to do all my testing in single-segment runs on GBA...oh well ._.

Fighter: Wink
Fighter: Leno
RedMage: WMek
RedMage: CCC

Bought rapiers and chains and wandered in the general direction of the Temple of Fiends.

Fight 1:
4 IMPs. Got into this fight right by the west coast with Corneria just out of sight or something. Got a first strike, but noticed my Response Rate was on 1 so I hit Reset. er, I cycled power instead.

Fight 1 (do-over):
3 IMPs, on some grass barely out of the northwestern edge of the forest surrounding Corneria. Didn't get far. No first strike. Wiped the floor with them anyway.

Fight 2:
5 IMPs, 2 squares away from coming out of the marsh.

Fight 3:
Garland. Maswhing A as I type this oh there he died. I think Leno took a hit.

oops I wasted 2 steps walking in the grey area of Corneria on the world map. I hope that doesn't break anything...
Fight 4:
3 IMPs in the forest bordering Corneria, this time on the northeastern corner. Let me cross the damn bridge already!

Fight 5:
5x WOLF, 1 GrWOLF. This was in the marsh, I'm touching the southern coastline. Um...I forgot how much HP a GrWOLF has so I'll just have one Fighter attack it.
...lol it took me 4 turns to win but I took nearly no damage.

Fight 6:
1x CREEP in the middle of the forest. I attack-spammed it and it barely died I think.

Fight 7:
2x CREEP. This was on the one step I made into grass out of the forest right before Pravoka. I am wondering if different terrain generates different encounters. I blasted each one with LIT and they didn't die.

I made it into Pravoka but clearly I haven't seen any OGREs. I'll pace around outside for "overtime" and see what pops up.

Fight 8:
2x OGREs. I searched the forest on purpose this time too. Hmm.
I did "fight fight lit lit" all on the same Ogre and it lived because one fighter Missed. Argh.

Level 3 was reached.

I'm tired. I hope this gets the ball rolling.

Winkwonle

2010-03-19 02:59:19 am

This is consistent with the offset-0 cycle, that is, your NES has behaved like a normal emulator would have. Well, it doesn't disprove what I was saying, but it doesn't help my point. Thanks for the data, it's really appreciated! I hope I'm not the one who's got a wrong cartridge. Undecided

Tuff_fish

2010-03-19 05:05:08 pm

CURE is pretty much unnecessary early in the game, at least with this route. chain armor, LIT, inns, etc. The earliest I used it on my specific route is after the marsh cave with any leftover level 1 charges, or after Astos to get back to elfland (the HOUSE before astos's castle replenishing level 1 charges).

I don't agree that the route relies entirely on the 2 ogre fight, or even the power cycle. Starting from 0, the 2 ogre fight can be skipped entirely by taking a precise route to pravoka (avoiding forests), then you can buy just 1xIce there. When you get out, you can take the 2 ogre fight for more gold or jump in the water and fight 2xshark+2xsahag. With magic both fights are easy even at level 2. If you take the second one, It's only like 4 more fights until you hit level 4 (!), and they all go so fast because LIT/ICE spamming in the water is such a massive upgrade for the reds in the early game. All sea monsters are weak vs LIT except kyzokus, where even 1 red having ice helps quite a lot.

Astos can still be beaten easily with 1 character using ice, the other using lit. It's still mostly about them not getting RUB'd, and after the astos fight, having ICE at all becomes mostly irrelevant anyway.

I didn't know about the NES issues with power cycles. That is interesting. The encounters were different in your game.. 4xPony on the way to pravoka for example. I'm not claiming that starting from battle 0 is the best way to go but figured it would be convenient because after a failed attempt you could just start right again without wasting any time moving the battle counter forward. If the game is going to put you at different spots anyway then that should be a consideration.

I'll say that the early game tends to give a lot of sharks in the water which are excellent EXP, but if anything I think my strategy actually gives more flexibility since you can bring stuff down so quickly. Even groups of sahags are doable since LIT or ICE take them down in one shot and they give decent gold (but really awful XP).

One big problem I'm having with my route is actually undeads in and around the marsh cave. Obviously there are no level 3 spell charges yet, and you can't even use FIRE because you need to save the spell charges for LIT on the wizards. And the reds miss their attacks quite a lot at level 4-5. It's awful. Since it's early enough in the game you may be able to find a safe window on the random encounter table though, which is about the only solution I can come up with outside of having good luck.

CURE is pretty much unnecessary early in the game, at least with this route.  chain armor, LIT, inns, etc.  The earliest I used it on my specific route is after the marsh cave with any leftover level 1 charges, or after Astos to get back to elfland (the HOUSE before astos's castle replenishing level 1 charges).

I don't agree that the route relies entirely on the 2 ogre fight, or even the power cycle.  Starting from 0, the 2 ogre fight can be skipped entirely by taking a precise route to pravoka (avoiding forests), then you can buy just 1xIce there.  When you get out, you can take the 2 ogre fight for more gold or jump in the water and fight 2xshark+2xsahag.  With magic both fights are easy even at level 2.  If you take the second one, It's only like 4 more fights until you hit level 4 (!), and they all go so fast because LIT/ICE spamming in the water is such a massive upgrade for the reds in the early game.  All sea monsters are weak vs LIT except kyzokus, where even 1 red having ice helps quite a lot.

Astos can still be beaten easily with 1 character using ice, the other using lit.  It's still mostly about them not getting RUB'd, and after the astos fight, having ICE at all becomes mostly irrelevant anyway.

I didn't know about the NES issues with power cycles.  That is interesting.  The encounters were different in your game.. 4xPony on the way to pravoka for example.  I'm not claiming that starting from battle 0 is the best way to go but figured it would be convenient because after a failed attempt you could just start right again without wasting any time moving the battle counter forward.  If the game is going to put you at different spots anyway then that should be a consideration.

I'll say that the early game tends to give a lot of sharks in the water which are excellent EXP, but if anything I think my strategy actually gives more flexibility since you can bring stuff down so quickly.  Even groups of sahags are doable since LIT or ICE take them down in one shot and they give decent gold (but really awful XP).

One big problem I'm having with my route is actually undeads in and around the marsh cave.  Obviously there are no level 3 spell charges yet, and you can't even use FIRE because you need to save the spell charges for LIT on the wizards.  And the reds miss their attacks quite a lot at level 4-5.  It's awful.  Since it's early enough in the game you may be able to find a safe window on the random encounter table though, which is about the only solution I can come up with outside of having good luck.

Winkwonle

2010-03-20 02:17:45 pm

(The entire FFRW run is currently available on YouTube.)

Ok, if we're starting at 0, then I think it's better to take the 2nd encounter inside the ToF (it being 1xGhoul). Just use as much no-encounter tiles as possible on the way to Garland. Also, probably run from the first Imps. The battle immediately after the 1-2xOgre fight should be 1xGrOgre + 1-2xOgre (south from Pravoka), which I think is better than 1-2xShark+0-2xSahag even though it is slower to beat.

I played the post-Lich section of the game two times this morning on emulator with FFRR. The second time I tried a variation that I think wins time:
- get canoe
- do Ordeals, no farming (pick up Heal staff, Gold bracelet, Ice sword, Zeus gauntlet, House, cash)
- do Ice cave (pick up Ice armor, Ice shield, 20,000 gold 1B; skip Flame sword, 40,000 gold in SW room)
- get airship, class change (pick up 20,000 gold in east-most island), characters were level 10, 10, 11, 10
- from now on, do only encounters that are no-run (except 20 agamas later on)
- go to Amaga spot in gurgu (skip Ice sword and Flame shield)
- cure one fighter and one red mage from lava damage, leave the rest to die
- fight 20 agamas, characters are level 15 (F), 15 (R), 10 (F), 10 (R)
- finish Gurgu
- revive one fighter
- buy WARP, BOTTLE, and one ProRing (and refill potions)
- do waterfalls, WARP
- get to SLAB, leave room, WARP, finish Sea shrine (pick up Opal bracelet, Opal helmet, Opal gauntlet, Ribbon; skip the rest)
- talk to Unne (buy CUR3 and LIFE for the active red mage)
- do mirage tower 1F (pick up Heal helmet, Aegis shield; skip the rest), WARP, House
- do mirage tower (pick up Thor hammer, Dragon armor, Sun sword; skip cash)
- do sky castle (pick up Opal shield, Ribbon, Black shirt, ADAMANT; skip the rest)
- get Xcalber
- revive R
- petrify RR in Ice cave, characters were level 16, 12, 16, 10
- ToFR until Lich2. There is a chance that the second fighter dies from Nuke (mine had 360 hp).
- beat Kary2 with who's left
- reactivate whole party if only one fighter is alive, then reach Kraken2 and put the red mage with the ability to use LIFE in last position. Give him Defense. Hope he survives. If two fighters are alive already, keep mages petrified and go Defense+fight three times, then fight+fight until Kraken2 is down.
- if you feel unlucky, reactivate whole party, grab Masmune then WARP. This costs ~2 minutes and improves chances against Chaos
- reactivate whole party, then beat Tiamat2
- arrange team as follows, levels may differ depending on what no-run encounters there were:
R: level 11, (Heal staff), Ice sword (or Defense), (Black shirt), Gold bracelet, Zeus gauntlet, (Opal helmet), one charge of FAST left
F: level 16, Sun sword (or Masmune), Dragon armor, Opal shield, Ribbon, Opal gauntlet
R: level 17, Defense sword (or Sun sword), (Heal helmet), Opal bracelet, Ribbon, ProRing, three charges of FAST left
F: level 19, Xcalber, Ice armor, Aegis shield, Ribbon, ProRing
- beat Chaos with FAST (2nd), fight, FAST (4th), fight; Black shirt, fight, FAST (self) then fight, fight, until victory. If you have CUR3 charges left, then use them whenever a ribboned character goes under 200 hp. This seams to win ~50% of the time without Masmune, and ~90% of the time with Masmune.

Because of Tuff_fish's suggestion of using FIRE for Lich, you will also not have access to RUSE later on with the red mages, but I don't think that that's problematic. There are not many teams that can beat Chaos fairly well without Masmune, so it may be good to try the devil and make a much more impressive run. Other than for impressiveness, I wouldn't recommend it though.

The motivation for changing the FFRW route after class change is that the second R is useless against Chaos after the first turn, whereas the W isn't (because of Hel2). Indeed, one character has to be deprived of Ribbon. Also, the Ice sword is pretty weak, so using Black shirt is better than (or about equal to) fighting. Having a very weak R doesn't make much of a difference over having a strong one, but having an extra R at all does make a difference over not having one. It allows you to use FAST on both fighters on the first round. This does help a lot for Chaos, who uses CUR4 if you waste too much time.

I'm not sure about killing the second fighter for Agama farming. It seems helpful exp-wise. Level 18 is not required for 4-hit attacks with Masmune, whereas it is required with Xcalber (meaning only one fighter has to have a high level). On the other hand, it introduces a weakness against Lich2. In the case where the second fighter dies and must be revived, a very uncomfortable situation arises against Kraken2. All in all, the tradeoff for skipping a few Agamas is having a much more dangerous ToFR.

Anyone has an opinion on that new post-Lich route?

(The entire FFRW run is currently available on YouTube.)

Ok, if we're starting at 0, then I think it's better to take the 2nd encounter inside the ToF (it being 1xGhoul). Just use as much no-encounter tiles as possible on the way to Garland. Also, probably run from the first Imps. The battle immediately after the 1-2xOgre fight should be 1xGrOgre + 1-2xOgre (south from Pravoka), which I think is better than 1-2xShark+0-2xSahag even though it is slower to beat.

I played the post-Lich section of the game two times this morning on emulator with FFRR. The second time I tried a variation that I think wins time:
- get canoe
- do Ordeals, no farming (pick up Heal staff, Gold bracelet, Ice sword, Zeus gauntlet, House, cash)
- do Ice cave (pick up Ice armor, Ice shield, 20,000 gold 1B; skip Flame sword, 40,000 gold in SW room)
- get airship, class change (pick up 20,000 gold in east-most island), characters were level 10, 10, 11, 10
- from now on, do only encounters that are no-run (except 20 agamas later on)
- go to Amaga spot in gurgu (skip Ice sword and Flame shield)
- cure one fighter and one red mage from lava damage, leave the rest to die
- fight 20 agamas, characters are level 15 (F), 15 (R), 10 (F), 10 (R)
- finish Gurgu
- revive one fighter
- buy WARP, BOTTLE, and one ProRing (and refill potions)
- do waterfalls, WARP
- get to SLAB, leave room, WARP, finish Sea shrine (pick up Opal bracelet, Opal helmet, Opal gauntlet, Ribbon; skip the rest)
- talk to Unne (buy CUR3 and LIFE for the active red mage)
- do mirage tower 1F (pick up Heal helmet, Aegis shield; skip the rest), WARP, House
- do mirage tower (pick up Thor hammer, Dragon armor, Sun sword; skip cash)
- do sky castle (pick up Opal shield, Ribbon, Black shirt, ADAMANT; skip the rest)
- get Xcalber
- revive R
- petrify RR in Ice cave, characters were level 16, 12, 16, 10
- ToFR until Lich2. There is a chance that the second fighter dies from Nuke (mine had 360 hp).
- beat Kary2 with who's left
- reactivate whole party if only one fighter is alive, then reach Kraken2 and put the red mage with the ability to use LIFE in last position. Give him Defense. Hope he survives. If two fighters are alive already, keep mages petrified and go Defense+fight three times, then fight+fight until Kraken2 is down.
- if you feel unlucky, reactivate whole party, grab Masmune then WARP. This costs ~2 minutes and improves chances against Chaos
- reactivate whole party, then beat Tiamat2
- arrange team as follows, levels may differ depending on what no-run encounters there were:
    R: level 11, (Heal staff), Ice sword (or Defense), (Black shirt), Gold bracelet, Zeus gauntlet, (Opal helmet), one charge of FAST left
    F: level 16, Sun sword (or Masmune), Dragon armor, Opal shield, Ribbon, Opal gauntlet
    R: level 17, Defense sword (or Sun sword), (Heal helmet), Opal bracelet, Ribbon, ProRing, three charges of FAST left
    F: level 19, Xcalber, Ice armor, Aegis shield, Ribbon, ProRing
- beat Chaos with FAST (2nd), fight, FAST (4th), fight; Black shirt, fight, FAST (self) then fight, fight, until victory. If you have CUR3 charges left, then use them whenever a ribboned character goes under 200 hp. This seams to win ~50% of the time without Masmune, and ~90% of the time with Masmune.

Because of Tuff_fish's suggestion of using FIRE for Lich, you will also not have access to RUSE later on with the red mages, but I don't think that that's problematic. There are not many teams that can beat Chaos fairly well without Masmune, so it may be good to try the devil and make a much more impressive run. Other than for impressiveness, I wouldn't recommend it though.

The motivation for changing the FFRW route after class change is that the second R is useless against Chaos after the first turn, whereas the W isn't (because of Hel2). Indeed, one character has to be deprived of Ribbon. Also, the Ice sword is pretty weak, so using Black shirt is better than (or about equal to) fighting. Having a very weak R doesn't make much of a difference over having a strong one, but having an extra R at all does make a difference over not having one. It allows you to use FAST on both fighters on the first round. This does help a lot for Chaos, who uses CUR4 if you waste too much time.

I'm not sure about killing the second fighter for Agama farming. It seems helpful exp-wise. Level 18 is not required for 4-hit attacks with Masmune, whereas it is required with Xcalber (meaning only one fighter has to have a high level). On the other hand, it introduces a weakness against Lich2. In the case where the second fighter dies and must be revived, a very uncomfortable situation arises against Kraken2. All in all, the tradeoff for skipping a few Agamas is having a much more dangerous ToFR.

Anyone has an opinion on that new post-Lich route?