Final Fantasy 1 - Segmented (Run Submitted!)

2010-02-26 11:06:52 pm

Hmm, you know Wonkle, I'm following your route, but there's been one problem. I'm at Level 4 by the Marsh Cave, but getting to Level 5 without getting my butt kicked by the monsters is proving to be quite a problem. What do I do?

Winkwonle

2010-02-27 12:58:04 am

Do more battles before getting there. You should be already close to level 5 when you enter the cave. Inside, just go for undeads, and combinations of spiders. Maybe mucks, but not scums.

WarMech

2010-03-06 08:05:02 pm

Quick Update: I'm in the middle of a final test run before I begin recording again. I've made a few minor modifications to the route... and man is this run going to be awesome.

2:45 is the new target time, no joke.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-07 11:26:44 am

....and how do you plan on doing that?

Lenophis

2010-03-07 02:15:17 pm

0-10

By cheating, of course! ...Ok, maybe not, but I still have my doubts.

ShinerCCC

2010-03-07 02:19:16 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

2:45?!

ZOMG CAN'T WAIT

WarMech

2010-03-07 02:37:23 pm

Quote from ShinerCCC:

2:45?!

ZOMG CAN'T WAIT

I had to return the favor after that awesome Faxanadu run 8)

FionordeQuester

2010-03-07 06:06:43 pm

So, just how are you going to do this?

Winkwonle

2010-03-10 09:21:35 pm

( Just a little follow up: I've started uploading videos on youtube. The process is rather slow for some reason so it'll take a couple of days to put the whole run out there. Follow this link for the first video: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=mbHvIZFMdsc&feature=channel )

japanzaman

2010-03-10 09:26:26 pm

2:45

This I will need to see

ShinerCCC

2010-03-11 01:22:47 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Winkwonle, is this the single-segment run that was rejected from SDA?

Tuff_fish

2010-03-11 02:33:14 am

long time follower, first time poster, rahrahrah.

Warmech,

I would be absolutely amazed to see a 2:45 run of this game. Some of the segments would have to be insane. I'm not sure if you're still using the idea, but keeping the lone black mage alive after PoP farming would be one of them. You should check out the japanese single-segment [with resets] video posted in that thread if you haven't already.

Winkwonle,

I've been playing around with your route a little bit the last few days and I jotted down some notes. Here are a few comments/suggestions/ideas/whatever:

- I really like the FFRW team and the overall route. Mummies are far safer and more reliable than PoP in my experience (for a single-segment run), and the HRM charges are nice. The White mage absolutely rocks the melmond/earth cave portion of the game.

- The boss strategies IMO are really, really good, especially working in defensive magic like slotting the white mage second against wizards and using ruse. The Astos fight requires more luck than I'd care for, but I'm not sure there's all that much you can do about it. More on that in a minute.

- I watched your video and I think the opening can be changed a little. Here's how I think I would do it, within the context of your route and what you're trying to accomplish: Buy 3xRapier, Hammer, 3x Chain, kill Garland for level 2. Obviously you have to figure out what you want to encounter if you're manipulating battles. It would be 2 imp fights from a hard reset. Go back through Coneria, buy Cure for WHM, LIT for RDM, and 2 pures. Even though the order gets messed up, I think it's way better to have LIT than Cure in the early game for the red. You can lit spam in the water and even use it on the way to pravoka to beat 2 ogres pretty easily. I don't think you really have to get the pures here, but there's not much else to buy, and it saves you from having to walk through Coneria again on the way to the Dwarf chests. Alternatively you could avoid asps/arachnids on the battle sequence or just take some chances. You can buy Cure for the RDM when you buy harm/ruse for the white. I don't really see the need for the RDM to use it anytime before mummy farming to be honest.

IMO the 3rd chain armor is worth the money and any time required to get it. It will save on inn trips, heals en route to iron armor, and resets.

- I tried getting ice instead of mute (very helpful vs kyzokus and ogres), but then Astos is an even bigger problem. Even leveling up to level 5 before leaving elfland (3 shots of ice) had a very low success rate. FFRR would really excel here-- you could get ice for both, use lit/ice in the water, then nuke Astos without trouble, but I digress. As is, I agree that mute is the best choice, I'll only add that if you can reasonably keep the white mage alive until Astos's castle I think you should. Put him/her in front to (hopefully) absorb a RUB. Btw is there any info on the probability of a mute sticking on Astos?

- I'd consider getting the copper bracelet in the Marsh cave. If you have to pace around for more battles you should definitely get it. It's only 16 steps out of the way (8x2) from the house/alternate iron armor chests. +4 absorb, helps vs mummies, sells for 500 when you trade it in for a silver bracelet (probably won't need it).

- I can't figure out what to do with silver armor. I think on my last playthrough I gave the silver armor from the dwarf cave to the red mage, iron everything on both fighters, then at crescent lake I gave the Silver back to a fighter (along with everything else silver) and went back to chain on the red mage. My reasoning for this was silver armor may be better vs ice cave sorcerers due to the increased evade, but I'm not sure about in general usage (iron has higher absorb).

- after Ordeals, I like the party lineup to be F/F/W/R, assuming the red has the heal staff. Since the 4th character is the least likely to successfully run, you may as well take advantage of the free heals you get. I like the same formation in the water as well, vs oddeye + sahag you can run + run + run + redmage attack oddeye, to help prevent stunlocks.

- Didn't see this mentioned, but I would pick up the flame sword in the ice cave. It's the unguarded chest.

- I'll throw this out there as a long shot-- what about leveling up to 15 off agamas in the volcano? Temporarily give the heal staff to the white mage, give the ice armor and ice shield to different fighters, attack (ice sword), attack (ice sword), attack (flame sword), heal staff over and over again. The vast majority of fights last one round and they are on alternating spiked squares. Going from level 12 to level 15 requires about 80k experience (~20k x 4). This would require about 32 agama fights. I'm not sure how long that would take, but it has some pretty significant benefits-- you can use warp in the waterfall and once in the sea shrine (to get back to the original level), you can run more frequently and more successfully, faster boss fights, less heal potions required, etc. I'm guessing it wouldn't be worth the time invested, plus you'd have to make an extra trip to melmond and the zeus gauntlet makes the sea shrine pretty efficient anyway. I think it's worth investigating though.

- The mage staff and light axe aren't that far out of the way (maybe 1-2 extra battles combined). It may be worth picking them up. You could give one each to a fighter and smoke packs of ghosts and vampires for example with mage staff + light axe + fir2/zeus + hrm2/zeus. You could also use them to preserve cur2 charges later.

- Does the procape do anything that a proring doesn't do, besides the extra absorb? If not, I'd probably skip it. It's decently out of the way and armor spots are at a premium.

long time follower, first time poster, rahrahrah.

Warmech,

I would be absolutely amazed to see a 2:45 run of this game.  Some of the segments would have to be insane.  I'm not sure if you're still using the idea, but keeping the lone black mage alive after PoP farming would be one of them.  You should check out the japanese single-segment [with resets] video posted in that thread if you haven't already.

Winkwonle,

I've been playing around with your route a little bit the last few days and I jotted down some notes.  Here are a few comments/suggestions/ideas/whatever:

- I really like the FFRW team and the overall route.  Mummies are far safer and more reliable than PoP in my experience (for a single-segment run), and the HRM charges are nice.  The White mage absolutely rocks the melmond/earth cave portion of the game.

- The boss strategies IMO are really, really good, especially working in defensive magic like slotting the white mage second against wizards and using ruse.  The Astos fight requires more luck than I'd care for, but I'm not sure there's all that much you can do about it.  More on that in a minute.

- I watched your video and I think the opening can be changed a little.  Here's how I think I would do it, within the context of your route and what you're trying to accomplish:  Buy 3xRapier, Hammer, 3x Chain, kill Garland for level 2.  Obviously you have to figure out what you want to encounter if you're manipulating battles.  It would be 2 imp fights from a hard reset.   Go back through Coneria, buy Cure for WHM, LIT for RDM, and 2 pures.  Even though the order gets messed up, I think it's way better to have LIT than Cure in the early game for the red.  You can lit spam in the water and even use it on the way to pravoka to beat 2 ogres pretty easily.  I don't think you really have to get the pures here, but there's not much else to buy, and it saves you from having to walk through Coneria again on the way to the Dwarf chests.  Alternatively you could avoid asps/arachnids on the battle sequence or just take some chances.  You can buy Cure for the RDM when you buy harm/ruse for the white.  I don't really see the need for the RDM to use it anytime before mummy farming to be honest.

IMO the 3rd chain armor is worth the money and any time required to get it.  It will save on inn trips, heals en route to iron armor, and resets.

- I tried getting ice instead of mute (very helpful vs kyzokus and ogres), but then Astos is an even bigger problem.  Even leveling up to level 5 before leaving elfland (3 shots of ice) had a very low success rate.  FFRR would really excel here-- you could get ice for both, use lit/ice in the water, then nuke Astos without trouble, but I digress.  As is, I agree that mute is the best choice, I'll only add that if you can reasonably keep the white mage alive until Astos's castle I think you should.  Put him/her in front to (hopefully) absorb a RUB.  Btw is there any info on the probability of a mute sticking on Astos?

- I'd consider getting the copper bracelet in the Marsh cave.  If you have to pace around for more battles you should definitely get it.  It's only 16 steps out of the way (8x2) from the house/alternate iron armor chests.  +4 absorb, helps vs mummies, sells for 500 when you trade it in for a silver bracelet (probably won't need it).

- I can't figure out what to do with silver armor. I think on my last playthrough I gave the silver armor from the dwarf cave to the red mage, iron everything on both fighters, then at crescent lake I gave the Silver back to a fighter (along with everything else silver) and went back to chain on the red mage.  My reasoning for this was silver armor may be better vs ice cave sorcerers due to the increased evade, but I'm not sure about in general usage (iron has higher absorb).

- after Ordeals, I like the party lineup to be F/F/W/R, assuming the red has the heal staff.  Since the 4th character is the least likely to successfully run, you may as well take advantage of the free heals you get.  I like the same formation in the water as well, vs oddeye + sahag you can run + run + run + redmage attack oddeye, to help prevent stunlocks.

-  Didn't see this mentioned, but I would pick up the flame sword in the ice cave.  It's the unguarded chest.

-  I'll throw this out there as a long shot-- what about leveling up to 15 off agamas in the volcano?  Temporarily give the heal staff to the white mage, give the ice armor and ice shield to different fighters, attack (ice sword), attack (ice sword), attack (flame sword), heal staff over and over again.  The vast majority of fights last one round and they are on alternating spiked squares.  Going from level 12 to level 15 requires about 80k experience (~20k x 4).  This would require about 32 agama fights.  I'm not sure how long that would take, but it has some pretty significant benefits-- you can use warp in the waterfall and once in the sea shrine (to get back to the original level), you can run more frequently and more successfully, faster boss fights, less heal potions required, etc.  I'm guessing it wouldn't be worth the time invested, plus you'd have to make an extra trip to melmond and the zeus gauntlet makes the sea shrine pretty efficient anyway.  I think it's worth investigating though.

- The mage staff and light axe aren't that far out of the way (maybe 1-2 extra battles combined).  It may be worth picking them up.  You could give one each to a fighter and smoke packs of ghosts and vampires for example with mage staff + light axe + fir2/zeus + hrm2/zeus.  You could also use them to preserve cur2 charges later.

- Does the procape do anything that a proring doesn't do, besides the extra absorb?  If not, I'd probably skip it.  It's decently out of the way and armor spots are at a premium.

Carcinogen

2010-03-11 02:38:26 am

Yeahhhh, get it, son. Cheesy

I'm very interested in seeing the revised route, at least.

Lenophis

2010-03-11 03:04:08 am

0-10

Quote from Tuff_fish:

- Does the procape do anything that a proring doesn't do, besides the extra absorb? If not, I'd probably skip it. It's decently out of the way and armor spots are at a premium.

ProCape is a shield slot, ProRing is a glove slot. Both have 8 defense, cape has 1 more evade point penalty. ProRing's are infinite in supply, only two cape's in the game (one in sky fortress, one in the last dungeon). The capes aren't really that great, they just supply the pure mages with an actual shield.

Plus the ring has the insta-death protection. Always, always, always get the rings, or as many as you can with the funds available.

Winkwonle

2010-03-11 08:41:21 am

(Yes, that would be the one that SDA refused. It does contain ugly planning errors, so beware.)

Great suggestions Tuff_fish! I'm happy to see that you tried FFRW. It really is a good team.

You're probably right, the initial buying order can be changed a little. Remember that we must consider where to Inn and where not to. In my experience, if you Inn directly after Bikke, then it is frequent that you fall short on spell slots during the trip to the dwarf cave. If you Inn at Coneria, after one or two additional sea fights, chances are a little better. In both your route and mine, three trips to Coneria have to be made anyway. I really like the idea of forcing a 2-ogre battle before Pravoka though.

I believe that your strategy works better than mine especially in the context of battle counting. My route was designed for a non-counting run. However, I have the intention of using battle counting in my next attempt. (It saves considerable time, but it requires a lot more concentration and leads to some ugly hesitation. My run may get rejected on that basis regardless of the time saved.)

I agree about the Chain shirt. It is a precious thing to have, and 80G is so little money. Sticking it in the starting gear looks best.

Ice is very cool to have, yeah. I don't know what are the exact chances of hitting Astos in at most two shots of Mute, but they don't seem so bad. It looks like something around 50%. When I tried different teams, I would alternate between the Ice/Lit strategy and the Mute strategy for the red mage. With FFFR, Ice/Lit is doable provided that you have two (or more) short swords. It is sad to travel with Level-2 spell slots at the beginning and not use them. There may be a way to stuff both Ice and Mute into the budget if we force the 2-ogre pre-Pravoka battle.

Copper bracelet is a yes. I didn't really think about it at the time. 500G is useful at that stage, indeed.

Silver armor, I don't know. It's worth a lot of money for the very small benefit that it provides. If you think that keeping it is a good idea, then I'd like to know what additional chests you'd pick up to compensate, or what expenses you'd abandon. One thing that can be done is replacing the 2 x Silver sword by 2 x Long sword for the fighters. The damage rate is sensibly the same. The only noticeable difference is against Lich, where Silver seems to just barely pierce its defense and Long seems to just barely not. I'm open to this change, but you'd have to be convinced that Silver armor's extra evade makes a worthy difference later in the Ice cave.

I haven't tried it yet, but I find your F/F/W/R order suggestion well justified. I'll check it out.

The only reasons for picking up Flame sword is for extra selling money or for the early Agama farming that you suggest. As such, there are no places that I know of, no bosses, where Flame makes a noticeable difference over Silver. Flame does reach the 3-hit threshold before Silver, but that never happens for the red mage (until about level 18) and it becomes obsolete right after the Volcano when you get Defense. Also, I like skipping as much chests as possible on dangerous floors of the Ice cave (every floor except 1st).

The thought of Agama farming has crossed my mind too, and I never really got a good refutation to it. I didn't put it in the schedule because, like you said, the extra EXP is not required before the ToFR except for Warp charges. Once you are in the ToFR, the rate at which EXP increases is one order of magnitude higher than anywhere else. The final character level that I want is 18 for both fighters and 15 for the mages. One fighter may be even lower than 18, and the white mage really can have any level, but in practice that's the level that I naturally get. So, if farming Agamas until level 15, one would have to pretty much run from every other pre-ToFR battle. Ok, why not. I'll check it out too.

Mage staff, maybe. Light axe, no. It's more off-track and it's less useful. I have my doubts about the Mage staff. In a "real" game, I always pick it up. It's nice to have, it occupies a weapon slot so no conflict there, and it replaces Zeus when I finally sell that one. In a speedrun, however, I have to ask how many times the staff will likely be used. Let's say once against Ghosts. Once against the Blue dragon. About twice in the ToFR against ZombieDs and/or Earths and/or FrGiants+FrWolfs. Maybe the ToFR shouldn't even be counted because Thor's damage rate on those monsters is not much lower. Well, it doesn't cost much to pick up and it doesn't save much. I won't say it's not worth it. If you affirm that it saves time and trouble overall, I'll believe you and include it in the route.

Procape is another choice that leaves me uncertain. The idea is to get extra absorb for the ToFR. Since only the white mage is protected throughout the upper floors, having the three other characters well armored looked interesting. People have criticized my eager use of the Heal gear, but the fact is that 99 heal potions is just too few for that place. My calculation is that Procape saves time spent using the Heal staff and helmet. How much so, is a good question. Maybe not enough. The right thing to do would be to do the ToFR separately 2-3 times and count the average number of hits that the red mage takes. That times 8/30 is about the number of heal potions saved.

I'm happy to hear suggestions, and interesting ones what's more, supported by actual playing. I must say that I am myself guilty of answering those careful suggestions by memory, and not by playing though them in a fair run. I will do that as soon as I get time.

(Yes, that would be the one that SDA refused. It does contain ugly planning errors, so beware.)

Great suggestions Tuff_fish! I'm happy to see that you tried FFRW. It really is a good team.

You're probably right, the initial buying order can be changed a little. Remember that we must consider where to Inn and where not to. In my experience, if you Inn directly after Bikke, then it is frequent that you fall short on spell slots during the trip to the dwarf cave. If you Inn at Coneria, after one or two additional sea fights, chances are a little better. In both your route and mine, three trips to Coneria have to be made anyway. I really like the idea of forcing a 2-ogre battle before Pravoka though.

I believe that your strategy works better than mine especially in the context of battle counting. My route was designed for a non-counting run. However, I have the intention of using battle counting in my next attempt. (It saves considerable time, but it requires a lot more concentration and leads to some ugly hesitation. My run may get rejected on that basis regardless of the time saved.)

I agree about the Chain shirt. It is a precious thing to have, and 80G is so little money. Sticking it in the starting gear looks best.

Ice is very cool to have, yeah. I don't know what are the exact chances of hitting Astos in at most two shots of Mute, but they don't seem so bad. It looks like something around 50%. When I tried different teams, I would alternate between the Ice/Lit strategy and the Mute strategy for the red mage. With FFFR, Ice/Lit is doable provided that you have two (or more) short swords. It is sad to travel with Level-2 spell slots at the beginning and not use them. There may be a way to stuff both Ice and Mute into the budget if we force the 2-ogre pre-Pravoka battle.

Copper bracelet is a yes. I didn't really think about it at the time. 500G is useful at that stage, indeed.

Silver armor, I don't know. It's worth a lot of money for the very small benefit that it provides. If you think that keeping it is a good idea, then I'd like to know what additional chests you'd pick up to compensate, or what expenses you'd abandon. One thing that can be done is replacing the 2 x Silver sword by 2 x Long sword for the fighters. The damage rate is sensibly the same. The only noticeable difference is against Lich, where Silver seems to just barely pierce its defense and Long seems to just barely not. I'm open to this change, but you'd have to be convinced that Silver armor's extra evade makes a worthy difference later in the Ice cave.

I haven't tried it yet, but I find your F/F/W/R order suggestion well justified. I'll check it out.

The only reasons for picking up Flame sword is for extra selling money or for the early Agama farming that you suggest. As such, there are no places that I know of, no bosses, where Flame makes a noticeable difference over Silver. Flame does reach the 3-hit threshold before Silver, but that never happens for the red mage (until about level 18) and it becomes obsolete right after the Volcano when you get Defense. Also, I like skipping as much chests as possible on dangerous floors of the Ice cave (every floor except 1st).

The thought of Agama farming has crossed my mind too, and I never really got a good refutation to it. I didn't put it in the schedule because, like you said, the extra EXP is not required before the ToFR except for Warp charges. Once you are in the ToFR, the rate at which EXP increases is one order of magnitude higher than anywhere else. The final character level that I want is 18 for both fighters and 15 for the mages. One fighter may be even lower than 18, and the white mage really can have any level, but in practice that's the level that I naturally get. So, if farming Agamas until level 15, one would have to pretty much run from every other pre-ToFR battle. Ok, why not. I'll check it out too.

Mage staff, maybe. Light axe, no. It's more off-track and it's less useful. I have my doubts about the Mage staff. In a "real" game, I always pick it up. It's nice to have, it occupies a weapon slot so no conflict there, and it replaces Zeus when I finally sell that one. In a speedrun, however, I have to ask how many times the staff will likely be used. Let's say once against Ghosts. Once against the Blue dragon. About twice in the ToFR against ZombieDs and/or Earths and/or FrGiants+FrWolfs. Maybe the ToFR shouldn't even be counted because Thor's damage rate on those monsters is not much lower. Well, it doesn't cost much to pick up and it doesn't save much. I won't say it's not worth it. If you affirm that it saves time and trouble overall, I'll believe you and include it in the route.

Procape is another choice that leaves me uncertain. The idea is to get extra absorb for the ToFR. Since only the white mage is protected throughout the upper floors, having the three other characters well armored looked interesting. People have criticized my eager use of the Heal gear, but the fact is that 99 heal potions is just too few for that place. My calculation is that Procape saves time spent using the Heal staff and helmet. How much so, is a good question. Maybe not enough. The right thing to do would be to do the ToFR separately 2-3 times and count the average number of hits that the red mage takes. That times 8/30 is about the number of heal potions saved.

I'm happy to hear suggestions, and interesting ones what's more, supported by actual playing. I must say that I am myself guilty of answering those careful suggestions by memory, and not by playing though them in a fair run. I will do that as soon as I get time.

Tuff_fish

2010-03-11 03:38:11 pm

I just played up through melmond real quick (frameskip ftw). There are definitely some cool things you can do. I have not been battle counting just to throw that in there, although I do know the opening battles pretty well from a hard reset.

Starting from a hard reset (I'm not saying you necessarily should, but hypothetically), you could fight the two imp fights on the way to Garland-- running is so unreliable at level 1 anyway-- and your extended starting gear would look like this: 3x chain, 3x rapier, hammer, CURE (W), LIT. Inn, run to pravoka (may fight stuff like 1-2 wolves on the way since it will be faster than running), 1-2 ogre fight should be right before pravoka. Luckily it always seems to be 2 ogres for me. Overkill the first one with fight+fight+lit+cure(as needed). I haven't had too much trouble with this. Kill pirates the pirates for level 3 (!) and you'll have 900+ gold. Buy mute and ice for the red, inn, then kill the shark in the water with lit and the kyzokus to follow with ice. Inn at coneria, and you're already a decent chunk to level 4.

What to do from here is debatable. I don't see the urgency in getting to the dwarves' cave so fast. You're not going to need harm/ruse/cure (red) or the items until you leave for the marsh cave anyway. I think I would get level 4 until getting the dwarf chests, so you're safer and you can fight more on the way. If that doesn't work, I would definitely do it at level 3 from a fresh inn trip at coneria. Pures may or may not be needed, depending on whether you're counting, the battle sequence, and/or your tolerance for risk. Even if you get poisoned though it's not the end of the world at level 4 with more HP and cures.

You should have enough gold for the spells, items, and at least an iron shield/wooden helmet for the first fighter. Maybe pick up an extra tent for safety outside of astos's castle? You may need it either time.

I agree that the copper bracelet is a yes...

You don't have to give up anything to keep the silver armor. If it came down to it, I certainly wouldn't give up the silver swords. They're useful for wizards, Lich, and remain useful past that. It's a moot point though...

Using your route, you're going to have at least 10k gold after fighting the mummies. I think on my last playthrough I had something like 12k gold and almost got to level 8. I had already purchased FIR2, HRM2, and CUR2x1. After selling the power staff and short sword you'll have somewhere in the area of 17-18k probably, maybe a bit more. With that you buy CUR2 (red), 2 silver swords, 2 cabins, 2 softs, pures, and max out on heal potions (or at least close). For demonstrative purposes we'll say you leave coneria with 0 gold.

In Melmond we just need to buy a silver bracelet, 1 iron helmet, and 1 iron gauntlet. We've already bought or found 2 iron armors, 2 iron shields, and iron helmet, and an iron gauntlet.

After selling the iron staff, sabre, 2x silver daggers, dragon sword, copper bracelet, random junk (wooden helm(s), copper gauntlet, and the 3rd gold chest in the dwarves' cave, you have just enough to keep the silver armor. Maybe give the gold bracelet to the white mage instead later.

As far as the ice cave, I don't know. You said you were buying silver everything for the fighters at crescent lake. I don't even know if you're supposed to have enough money to buy them anyway. I think I did on my last playthrough but I was a level or two higher than I should have been, more gil, and I'm not sure if it's worth it anyway.

Instead, what about picking up a silver axe instead? You'll be at the weapon shop anyway, should have some throwaway gold, and it does a little extra damage at the expense of hit%, but you'll maintain the 2 hits/attack.

Agreed on the flame sword. I got it because I was agama farming and wanted the fights to last one round as early and as often as possible (the flame sword being better than the zeus gauntlet for that). It is on a horrible, horrible floor of the ice cave though. Angry

I assume you're shooting for level 18 on the fighter so you cross the 4 hit threshold for the excalibur?

The mage staff/light axe were more ideas than suggestions. I agree on the light axe. It would only be useful in a few battles, at most. However it is actually less out of the way than the mage staff if you're going from the opal armor to the SLAB floor (going down instead of cutting across the middle).

Assuming you don't have WARP at this point, I tentatively want to say getting the mage staff on the way back would be worth it. I'm not sure though. It would be useful for some of the bigger group fights you'll face like wizards in the mirage tower for example. However, you'll have a lot of level 3 spell charges at this point and you have the zeus gauntlet as well, so it's a judgement call.

Procape is another tough choice for sure. Not a bad idea about counting hits in the ToF although that might be a bit oversimplified and the variance on that kind of thing would be huge. I agree that it would give you a rough estimate on how much it would help, just make sure to count multiple hits from enemies. Having the RDM with the opal bracelet, procape, ribbon, and proring is pretty solid though. Outside of Lich2's nuke he'll be pretty safe. If he gets 1hko'd by kraken then the White can use life.

The heal stuff is important in a single segment run, no doubt. If you have to you can get something like worms down to 1 remaining, then spam heal helm+heal staff+white shirt for a little bit, maybe use defense sword once so your lead fighter maxes on evasion a little quicker.

I just played up through melmond real quick (frameskip ftw).  There are definitely some cool things you can do.  I have not been battle counting just to throw that in there, although I do know the opening battles pretty well from a hard reset.

Starting from a hard reset (I'm not saying you necessarily should, but hypothetically), you could fight the two imp fights on the way to Garland-- running is so unreliable at level 1 anyway-- and your extended starting gear would look like this: 3x chain, 3x rapier, hammer, CURE (W), LIT.  Inn, run to pravoka (may fight stuff like 1-2 wolves on the way since it will be faster than running), 1-2 ogre fight should be right before pravoka.  Luckily it always seems to be 2 ogres for me.  Overkill the first one with fight+fight+lit+cure(as needed).  I haven't had too much trouble with this.  Kill pirates the pirates for level 3 (!) and you'll have 900+ gold.  Buy mute and ice for the red, inn, then kill the shark in the water with lit and the kyzokus to follow with ice.  Inn at coneria, and you're already a decent chunk to level 4.

What to do from here is debatable.  I don't see the urgency in getting to the dwarves' cave so fast.  You're not going to need harm/ruse/cure (red) or the items until you leave for the marsh cave anyway.  I think I would get level 4 until getting the dwarf chests, so you're safer and you can fight more on the way.  If that doesn't work, I would definitely do it at level 3 from a fresh inn trip at coneria.  Pures may or may not be needed, depending on whether you're counting, the battle sequence, and/or your tolerance for risk.  Even if you get poisoned though it's not the end of the world at level 4 with more HP and cures.

You should have enough gold for the spells, items, and at least an iron shield/wooden helmet for the first fighter.  Maybe pick up an extra tent for safety outside of astos's castle?  You may need it either time.

I agree that the copper bracelet is a yes...

You don't have to give up anything to keep the silver armor.  If it came down to it, I certainly wouldn't give up the silver swords.  They're useful for wizards, Lich, and remain useful past that.  It's a moot point though...

Using your route, you're going to have at least 10k gold after fighting the mummies.  I think on my last playthrough I had something like 12k gold and almost got to level 8.  I had already purchased FIR2, HRM2, and CUR2x1.  After selling the power staff and short sword you'll have somewhere in the area of 17-18k probably, maybe a bit more.  With that you buy CUR2 (red), 2 silver swords, 2 cabins, 2 softs, pures, and max out on heal potions (or at least close).  For demonstrative purposes we'll say you leave coneria with 0 gold.

In Melmond we just need to buy a silver bracelet, 1 iron helmet, and 1 iron gauntlet.  We've already bought or found 2 iron armors, 2 iron shields, and iron helmet, and an iron gauntlet.

After selling the iron staff, sabre, 2x silver daggers, dragon sword, copper bracelet, random junk (wooden helm(s), copper gauntlet, and the 3rd gold chest in the dwarves' cave, you have just enough to keep the silver armor.  Maybe give the gold bracelet to the white mage instead later.

As far as the ice cave, I don't know.  You said you were buying silver everything for the fighters at crescent lake.  I don't even know if you're supposed to have enough money to buy them anyway.  I think I did on my last playthrough but I was a level or two higher than I should have been, more gil, and I'm not sure if it's worth it anyway.

Instead, what about picking up a silver axe instead?  You'll be at the weapon shop anyway, should have some throwaway gold, and it does a little extra damage at the expense of hit%, but you'll maintain the 2 hits/attack.

Agreed on the flame sword.  I got it because I was agama farming and wanted the fights to last one round as early and as often as possible (the flame sword being better than the zeus gauntlet for that).  It is on a horrible, horrible floor of the ice cave though.   >:(

I assume you're shooting for level 18 on the fighter so you cross the 4 hit threshold for the excalibur?

The mage staff/light axe were more ideas than suggestions.  I agree on the light axe.  It would only be useful in a few battles, at most.  However it is actually less out of the way than the mage staff if you're going from the opal armor to the SLAB floor (going down instead of cutting across the middle).

Assuming you don't have WARP at this point, I tentatively want to say getting the mage staff on the way back would be worth it.  I'm not sure though.  It would be useful for some of the bigger group fights you'll face like wizards in the mirage tower for example.  However, you'll have a lot of level 3 spell charges at this point and you have the zeus gauntlet as well, so it's a judgement call.

Procape is another tough choice for sure.  Not a bad idea about counting hits in the ToF although that might be a bit oversimplified and the variance on that kind of thing would be huge.  I agree that it would give you a rough estimate on how much it would help, just make sure to count multiple hits from enemies.  Having the RDM with the opal bracelet, procape, ribbon, and proring is pretty solid though.  Outside of Lich2's nuke he'll be pretty safe.  If he gets 1hko'd by kraken then the White can use life.

The heal stuff is important in a single segment run, no doubt.  If you have to you can get something like worms down to 1 remaining, then spam heal helm+heal staff+white shirt for a little bit, maybe use defense sword once so your lead fighter maxes on evasion a little quicker.

GarlandG

2010-03-11 04:16:38 pm

I will knock you all down!

Damn, I never expected Tuff_fish to be a speed runner.

I can't possibly contribute to this, so all I can say is good luck!

Tuff_fish

2010-03-11 05:34:14 pm

Haha.. I'm not tuff_fish. I'm surprised you know who he is. He's hilarious though Grin

I just played until the ice cave. Like I said before, I think this route is really, really good, and at most I'd only make a few very minor adjustments.

- I think I'd buy a 3rd and maybe even a 4th soft in elfland before going to Melmond. They have to last for quite awhile-- until after Ordeals. This will come at the expense of some heal potions which is OK.

- I remember gEists as yEllow and gHouls as wHite. This is important because they hit for 3 possible attacks (and a very likely stun) so it's important to target them with your fighters when they are in mixed groups (like specter/geist combination in earth cave).

- Skip the Titan's Tunnel chests. They are too far out of the way. Not worth the silver helmet (+1 absorb, no change in evasion), axe that sells for 1k, and the 1k in gold.

- When I got to crescent lake I was at around 15k in gold. ~20k after selling coral sword and random iron stuff. This was enough for heal potions and silver shields/helmets/gauntlets. If you're short, skip a helmet for the second fighter because it's hardly an upgrade (or maybe a shield instead because you're getting an ice shield in the ice cave).

- Sorcerers/red gargoyles/medusa/etc. in Ordeals, good luck

- Zeus gauntlet alternate chest is the 'empty' one in the lower left corner of the last floor. I probably wouldn't wait but if you are battle counting and really need to get off the normal zeus gauntlet floor this is good to know.

- Zombie D's are frustrating because it's hard to plan how many you're going to be able to kill. Sometimes I can kill quite a few, other times I need to get out of Ordeals very quickly.

- Great idea on buying the pure spell. Level 4 white magic isn't going to be used anyway, and as long as you have a couple pure items in reserve the spell is plenty. Gold is a non-issue at that point.

Haha.. I'm not tuff_fish.  I'm surprised you know who he is.  He's hilarious though  ;D

I just played until the ice cave.  Like I said before, I think this route is really, really good, and at most I'd only make a few very minor adjustments.

- I think I'd buy a 3rd and maybe even a 4th soft in elfland before going to Melmond.  They have to last for quite awhile-- until after Ordeals.  This will come at the expense of some heal potions which is OK.

- I remember gEists as yEllow and gHouls as wHite.  This is important because they hit for 3 possible attacks (and a very likely stun) so it's important to target them with your fighters when they are in mixed groups (like specter/geist combination in earth cave).

- Skip the Titan's Tunnel chests.  They are too far out of the way.  Not worth the silver helmet (+1 absorb, no change in evasion), axe that sells for 1k, and the 1k in gold.

- When I got to crescent lake I was at around 15k in gold. ~20k after selling coral sword and random iron stuff.  This was enough for heal potions and silver shields/helmets/gauntlets.  If you're short, skip a helmet for the second fighter because it's hardly an upgrade (or maybe a shield instead because you're getting an ice shield in the ice cave).

- Sorcerers/red gargoyles/medusa/etc. in Ordeals, good luck

- Zeus gauntlet alternate chest is the 'empty' one in the lower left corner of the last floor.  I probably wouldn't wait but if you are battle counting and really need to get off the normal zeus gauntlet floor this is good to know.

- Zombie D's are frustrating because it's hard to plan how many you're going to be able to kill.  Sometimes I can kill quite a few, other times I need to get out of Ordeals very quickly.

- Great idea on buying the pure spell.  Level 4 white magic isn't going to be used anyway, and as long as you have a couple pure items in reserve the spell is plenty.  Gold is a non-issue at that point.

Tuff_fish

2010-03-11 11:15:31 pm

I timed how long the agama farming would take. 16 minutes or so, details:

- Done on emulator, frameskip turned off (obviously)
- Started next to agama square
- Party level 11, red mage XP@16,755, 2980 TNL
- Ice armor on front fighter, ice shield on second fighter for fire resistance.
- Strategy was to attack with both fighters and red mage (2x ice swords, silver sword) and heal staff with white mage (zeus if full)
- Ended up doing 37 fights, only one lasted until the second round. The flame sword is obviously not needed for this.
- Heal staff kept everyone full, except after one fight I used 3 heal potions on the red because he was getting bullied.
- Finished in 16 minutes with party at level 15 and red mage XP@39,621.

Frankly, this is faster than I thought it would be. I'll leave it to you to decide whether it's worth it or not. Cheesy

ZeeJustin

2010-03-12 04:26:41 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

Haha.. I'm not tuff_fish. I'm surprised you know who he is. He's hilarious though

Son of a god damn bitch Hyatchhyatchkakaka!!!

GarlandG

2010-03-13 04:44:12 am

I will knock you all down!

Daggum, yet another person who knows who he is. **** me to goddamn tears!

Been a huge fan of him for years now.

PS. not sure if the f-word is allowed, so I censored it.

Tuff_fish

2010-03-13 11:43:01 pm

Holy mackerel! For some relevance to this site look up tuff_fish tries super mario on youtube. Grin

Wink I just watched parts 2 through 8 of your run. You run through everything a little quicker than I envisioned so I realize some of my advice becomes sort of obsolete in that respect. For example, waiting for level 4 is obviously too late to get the dwarves' chests and I overestimate how much gold you'll have in some of the later parts of the run (after the mummies in particular).

I still think the chests can be pushed back a tad bit (i.e. level 3) and it would be beneficial to work in some attack magic given how much physical attacks miss at low levels. Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the run when you get a chance to post the rest of the videos.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-14 02:49:21 pm

Yo Wonkle, what were your boss strategies for Lich2, Kary2, Kraken2, and Tiamat2? I'm having trouble with Lich2 and Kraken2, and would like to know what you have to say for the other two.

Lenophis

2010-03-14 03:06:40 pm

0-10

I'm guessing Lich2 goes something like this:

Pray like a mother that he doesn't kill you.

Although if the mages are petrified, that probably won't happen. I do have one question, though. It's a bit riskier, but you could get a mage petrified on the earth floor instead of the ice cave, any reason why you don't?

FionordeQuester

2010-03-14 03:22:22 pm

Probably because it was single segment.