Divine Divinity

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2014-12-10 01:13:37 pm

LotBlind: 2014-12-10 01:05:01 pm

2014-12-10 01:04:46 pm

When you're placing the orbs in the receptacles, is the screen a little glitched actually? I think for me it looked normal.

I corrected a lot of you English in the walkthrough you wrote Smiley

Wait, why do you save the game when you're fighting Josephina? Also could you manipulate her to stay out of the corners somehow so more scorpions can fight her at once? You seemed to have too many scorpions out maybe because they were almost getting the way or can you pass through them, I can't remember...

You seemed a little disoriented in the dwarven halls. Maybe getting to know the map even better would help you. Looks like you're using saving in more than one place meaning this is an RTA, which means any other save/load glitches (except the ones that make it NG+) are also allowed for that category. I forget what we talked about earlier.

The harpy in the dwarven mines took you down to almost zero health but not quite right? So no tricks used there? Why didn't you just put a few more points into constitution before it? Also could you have gained the exp needed to get another level in scorpion trap by the end? I noticed you can get massive exp by attacking dwarf guards (that get summoned if you breach the peace in the dwarven halls). This would speed up the compulsory fights a bit. Another idea would be to use the times you're waiting for teleportation to become active to fight things...

For the Wasteland, did you try throwing a pyramid near Zandalor first, tp to him but don't trigger the event yet. Throw the stone to the dungeon etc. If it's always the same, you could learn the time it takes teleportation to become available better in the few spots where you have to spam to see if it works. Unless the dialogue doesn't stop the timer. (make of note of this in the tricks page?)

Of course you've tested to see you can't just skip the forts altogether?

Any way you could activate shadows before the fights start in the last cave? I seem to remember you lose your invisibility when talking to npcs so maybe no.

35:40 Here you lost concentration? Aren't you just supposed to throw the stone?
36:44 Why does the are you pass through stay dark here?

Why do you need to cast Wizard's Sight AFTER throwing the stone on several occasions?

Are you sure you wouldn't save more time overall if you did the trick to get full map vision in some areas to make your throwing faster? Especially because your run is already RTA.

Your uploaded video has the wrong time in the title screen... Cheesy

it's not your only typo I think. As such, getting only about 30 seconds slower than one's best splits combined in a run of this length is pretty good, but maybe there's still ways to make it faster and more consistent.

EDIT: Are you sure the crouch trick only works with crouching? Did anyone test it with other stamina-consuming actions (apparently not running)? It's not relevant to the run but anyway.

When you're placing the orbs in the receptacles, is the screen a little glitched actually? I think for me it looked normal.

I corrected a lot of you English in the walkthrough you wrote :)

Wait, why do you save the game when you're fighting Josephina? Also could you manipulate her to stay out of the corners somehow so more scorpions can fight her at once? You seemed to have too many scorpions out maybe because they were almost getting the way or can you pass through them, I can't remember...

You seemed a little disoriented in the dwarven halls. Maybe getting to know the map even better would help you. Looks like you're using saving in more than one place meaning this is an RTA, which means any other save/load glitches (except the ones that make it NG+) are also allowed for that category. I forget what we talked about earlier.

The harpy in the dwarven mines took you down to almost zero health but not quite right? So no tricks used there? Why didn't you just put a few more points into constitution before it? Also could you have gained the exp needed to get another level in scorpion trap by the end? I noticed you can get massive exp by attacking dwarf guards (that get summoned if you breach the peace in the dwarven halls). This would speed up the compulsory fights a bit. Another idea would be to use the times you're waiting for teleportation to become active to fight things...

For the Wasteland, did you try throwing a pyramid near Zandalor first, tp to him but don't trigger the event yet. Throw the stone to the dungeon etc. If it's always the same, you could learn the time it takes teleportation to become available better in the few spots where you have to spam to see if it works. Unless the dialogue doesn't stop the timer. (make of note of this in the tricks page?)

Of course you've tested to see you can't just skip the forts altogether?

Any way you could activate shadows before the fights start in the last cave? I seem to remember you lose your invisibility when talking to npcs so maybe no.

35:40 Here you lost concentration? Aren't you just supposed to throw the stone?
36:44 Why does the are you pass through stay dark here?

Why do you need to cast Wizard's Sight AFTER throwing the stone on several occasions?

Are you sure you wouldn't save more time overall if you did the trick to get full map vision in some areas to make your throwing faster? Especially because your run is already RTA.

Your uploaded video has the wrong time in the title screen... :D it's not your only typo I think. As such, getting only about 30 seconds slower than one's best splits combined in a run of this length is pretty good, but maybe there's still ways to make it faster and more consistent.

EDIT: Are you sure the crouch trick only works with crouching? Did anyone test it with other stamina-consuming actions (apparently not running)? It's not relevant to the run but anyway.

Bantaris

Edit history:

Bantaris: 2014-12-11 06:52:37 am

Bantaris: 2014-12-11 06:16:05 am

2014-12-10 03:36:44 pm

Thank you very much for you detailed respone and all the things you pointed out. (and especially the corrections, they were much needed)

About the RTA think:
To my understanding, saving & reloading is allowed, if otherwise you could not continue your run. In my case, dying is usually the problem, so I saved whenever I reached a dangerous area.
If this really makes it RTA, then so be it, as to me this feels necessary. I'd be losing to many runs otherwise. Then I'll looking for some other uses, like the full map vision.

In the Josephina fight I had to save for a different reason. To fullfill the quest for Bronthion you have to collect the three artifacts, one of which is dropped by her. The problem is that if she dies next to a wall (or in this run the bookshelf), it's common for the staff to be dropped OOB, where you can't pick it up.
For all the bosses, I try to surround them with my scropions, which makes them die really fast. This fight however is in a really small room with a lot of other monsters arround, so it's hard to not have her end up next to a wall.
I agreed that I overdid it a bit with summoning scorpions and they ended up blocking my path. As only three were attacking her at a time, about six should be enough to keep her and the other monsters busy.

In the Dwarven Halls I actually was a bit disorientated, as I didn't land, where I planed to (maybe I miscounted), as I usually throw it south of the teleporter. I knew I had laned on an island, so I had to cross the river, but then I didn't know whether to go left or right. Knowing the map better would have helped me in this situiation.

The first time I approached the harpy, it did exactly what is was afraid of. It did kill me in one hit (you can see my corpse falling down). When I reloaded, the game didn't display my healthbar correctly, but I was on full health. Later, when I took some damage, it updated.

Starting a dialog doesn't stop the timer on a flying pyramid, so throwing it straight to the dungeon, should be the fastest. I'll note this in the tricks page.

Skipping all the forts was the first thing I hoped to be possible, but sadly it doesn't seem to work. The Demon of Lies is spawned, but he remains neutral and I haven't found a way to kill him in this state. Maybe this would trigger the credits, but who knows. Now I feel like testing it again, just to be sure.
Apparently for the event to start properly, you have to complete every fort and go through the cutscene.

In this game, bosses have the bad habbit to talk to you before they let you kill them, so everytime the dialog box pops up, the invisibility effect gets cancled (the same goes for opening doors). The only boss this works on is the Succubus.

35:40
I guess you mean that I should throw the pyramid before talking to Demona or at least do it without leaving the room.
It's usually the case, that as soon as you teleport in, the dialog starts and Demona starts attacking you. In this case I have to fight her, as I have to use Wizards Sight to throw the pyramid correctly. This would cancel the invisibility effect and she'd kill me.
If the fight doesn't start right away, then I could throw the pyramid, but first I'd have to get the other pyramid inside the room. Otherwise one pyramid would be at the next fort and the other one would be outside the room. So I have to get both pyramids inside, throw one and then fight the boss. For this to save time, picking up the second pyramid would have to be faster than fighting Demona and teleporting back outside (I can't throw it after summoning my scorpions to keep her from attacking me, as the dialog box resets my view to where I am). I'll have to do some testing, but your idea might save some time.

36:44
Before going invisible Moriendor hit me with a spell, which causes blindness. This prevents you from seeing npcs (however you can still see effects they caused) and revealing the map. This also happened during the first fight with Josephina and in the first encounter with him in the mines (although there I could reveal the map in a tiny radius).

Casting Wizards Sight AFTER throwing the pyramid: Do you mean e.g. at 37:00 (Fort 4 to Boss)?
Casting Wizards sight multiple times, causes the map to stay revealed permanently (fixed in later versions), so I thought I could do that and then wait for the pyramid to appear on screen, to avoid having to spam the use-pyramid-button. Then I noticed I could use the time to multiply my scorpion trap, just in case 16 wasn't enough for one boss (?).
Generaly I do this to know exactly when the pyramid lands, as I have nothing else to do.

Do you mean the trick which refills your stamina? I've done barely any testing on the other classes, so I can't be certain. I'd be interesting to know, whether it works for them too.

Thanks for pointing that out, as this really is quite an akward mistake. I'll change that right away. As for other typos, sometimes they are typos, somethimes it's due to a lack of knowledge of the english language. Corrections are alway welcome.
Consistency has been one of my biggest problems, either due to my skills or difficult parts in the run. I'm still looking for an easy way to safely get Dr Elrath's Note, without being murdered by either the Djin or the trap. Recently I found out that to some degree, the traps in the Treasury can be avoided by using Shadow Potions, which made my life a lot easier.

Thank you very much for you detailed respone and all the things you pointed out. (and especially the corrections, they were much needed)

About the RTA think:
To my understanding, saving & reloading is allowed, if otherwise you could not continue your run. In my case, dying is usually the problem, so I saved whenever I reached a dangerous area.
If this really makes it RTA, then so be it, as to me this feels necessary. I'd be losing to many runs otherwise. Then I'll looking for some other uses, like the full map vision.

In the Josephina fight I had to save for a different reason. To fullfill the quest for Bronthion you have to collect the three artifacts, one of which is dropped by her. The problem is that if she dies next to a wall (or in this run the bookshelf), it's common for the staff to be dropped OOB, where you can't pick it up.
For all the bosses, I try to surround them with my scropions, which makes them die really fast. This fight however is in a really small room with a lot of other monsters arround, so it's hard to not have her end up next to a wall.
I agreed that I overdid it a bit with summoning scorpions and they ended up blocking my path. As only three were attacking her at a time, about six should be enough to keep her and the other monsters busy.

In the Dwarven Halls I actually was a bit disorientated, as I didn't land, where I planed to (maybe I miscounted), as I usually throw it south of the teleporter. I knew I had laned on an island, so I had to cross the river, but then I didn't know whether to go left or right. Knowing the map better would have helped me in this situiation.

The first time I approached the harpy, it did exactly what is was afraid of. It did kill me in one hit (you can see my corpse falling down). When I reloaded, the game didn't display my healthbar correctly, but I was on full health. Later, when I took some damage, it updated.

Starting a dialog doesn't stop the timer on a flying pyramid, so throwing it straight to the dungeon, should be the fastest. I'll note this in the tricks page.

Skipping all the forts was the first thing I hoped to be possible, but sadly it doesn't seem to work. The Demon of Lies is spawned, but he remains neutral and I haven't found a way to kill him in this state. Maybe this would trigger the credits, but who knows. Now I feel like testing it again, just to be sure.
Apparently for the event to start properly, you have to complete every fort and go through the cutscene.

In this game, bosses have the bad habbit to talk to you before they let you kill them, so everytime the dialog box pops up, the invisibility effect gets cancled (the same goes for opening doors). The only boss this works on is the Succubus.

35:40
I guess you mean that I should throw the pyramid before talking to Demona or at least do it without leaving the room.
It's usually the case, that as soon as you teleport in, the dialog starts and Demona starts attacking you. In this case I have to fight her, as I have to use Wizards Sight to throw the pyramid correctly. This would cancel the invisibility effect and she'd kill me.
If the fight doesn't start right away, then I could throw the pyramid, but first I'd have to get the other pyramid inside the room. Otherwise one pyramid would be at the next fort and the other one would be outside the room. So I have to get both pyramids inside, throw one and then fight the boss. For this to save time, picking up the second pyramid would have to be faster than fighting Demona and teleporting back outside (I can't throw it after summoning my scorpions to keep her from attacking me, as the dialog box resets my view to where I am). I'll have to do some testing, but your idea might save some time.

36:44
Before going invisible Moriendor hit me with a spell, which causes blindness. This prevents you from seeing npcs (however you can still see effects they caused) and revealing the map. This also happened during the first fight with Josephina and in the first encounter with him in the mines (although there I could reveal the map in a tiny radius).

Casting Wizards Sight AFTER throwing the pyramid: Do you mean e.g. at 37:00 (Fort 4 to Boss)?
Casting Wizards sight multiple times, causes the map to stay revealed permanently (fixed in later versions), so I thought I could do that and then wait for the pyramid to appear on screen, to avoid having to spam the use-pyramid-button. Then I noticed I could use the time to multiply my scorpion trap, just in case 16 wasn't enough for one boss (?).
Generaly I do this to know exactly when the pyramid lands, as I have nothing else to do.

Do you mean the trick which refills your stamina? I've done barely any testing on the other classes, so I can't be certain. I'd be interesting to know, whether it works for them too.

Thanks for pointing that out, as this really is quite an akward mistake. I'll change that right away. As for other typos, sometimes they are typos, somethimes it's due to a lack of knowledge of the english language. Corrections are alway welcome.
Consistency has been one of my biggest problems, either due to my skills or difficult parts in the run. I'm still looking for an easy way to safely get Dr Elrath's Note, without being murdered by either the Djin or the trap. Recently I found out that to some degree, the traps in the Treasury can be avoided by using Shadow Potions, which made my life a lot easier.

LotBlind

2014-12-11 12:21:16 pm

Yeah there's Single Segment and there's Single Segment with resets which is also called Real Time Attack (because if there was an in-game timer it's no longer valid). So yeah you should focus on either making the best out of saving/loading (remember the NG+ thing though) or develop the run towards SS which means it'll pass verification more easily if you used somewhat safer strategies. Aaaand the other choice is segmented in which case you could combine save tricks with segmentation to make them more efficient (even though there's no segmentation penalty anymore).

Killing the Demon of Lies: you can't interact with him with your weapon out to make him angry can you? Cheesy

Otherwise maybe some area effect spell... but it's more than likely that it's just another thing the game doesn't let you skip because of the overall way the plot triggers activate.

Crazy idea: could you find a way to make scorpions spawn on the other side of a wall or if you spawn them from far away could you make them fight the bosses without triggering the speech. I don't think this could even save time though...

35:40 (a few second before actually): you run to the left for a bit for some reason. That's what I meant... but of course you're right that what you said was a good idea to test! Cheesy

Ahhh... blindness. Also: my bad with the 37:00 thing, I forgot the pyramid takes some time to land. That's why you get the dialogue about not being able to tp yet. Add the wizard's sight trick to the RPs.

The fact that you're still finding important tricks like using shadow potions to avoid the traps tells me the run isn't quite ready yet. You should keep looking for more interesting and/or useful tricks.

Yeah there's Single Segment and there's Single Segment with resets which is also called Real Time Attack (because if there was an in-game timer it's no longer valid). So yeah you should focus on either making the best out of saving/loading (remember the NG+ thing though) or develop the run towards SS which means it'll pass verification more easily if you used somewhat safer strategies. Aaaand the other choice is segmented in which case you could combine save tricks with segmentation to make them more efficient (even though there's no segmentation penalty anymore).

Killing the Demon of Lies: you can't interact with him with your weapon out to make him angry can you? :D Otherwise maybe some area effect spell... but it's more than likely that it's just another thing the game doesn't let you skip because of the overall way the plot triggers activate.

Crazy idea: could you find a way to make scorpions spawn on the other side of a wall or if you spawn them from far away could you make them fight the bosses without triggering the speech. I don't think this could even save time though...

35:40 (a few second before actually): you run to the left for a bit for some reason. That's what I meant... but of course you're right that what you said was a good idea to test! :D

Ahhh... blindness. Also: my bad with the 37:00 thing, I forgot the pyramid takes some time to land. That's why you get the dialogue about not being able to tp yet. Add the wizard's sight trick to the RPs.

The fact that you're still finding important tricks like using shadow potions to avoid the traps tells me the run isn't quite ready yet. You should keep looking for more interesting and/or useful tricks.

Bantaris

Edit history:

Bantaris: 2014-12-11 01:34:35 pm

Bantaris: 2014-12-11 01:31:47 pm

2014-12-11 01:31:23 pm

Ok, now I got it, never thought of the ingame timer to be the difference.

In this case, I think I'll stick to Single Segment without resets. The only benefit making it a RTA would give me, is more safety, which I hope to achieve anyways.
The two most sensitive parts of the run are for one Dr Elraths Note, but as it's early in the run, it's not too bad. The part I'm more worried about is the first Fort. Even with a lot of constitution, the Deathknights still easily kill you with their sword-lightning-attack. While scrolling through the void and after using Wizards Sight they tend to kill me in mere seconds.
If Josephina dropps her Staff outside the room, I'll have to use my pyramids to get there.

If i decided to make the run NG+, it would for one allow me to bring items from another savegame. The first items I could think of were the statue and quest items, although I can't tell yet, if this would be usefull with all these triggers the game has. Further exploration could bring up some new things, but that's not my priority at the moment.

I have not found a way to make the Demon aggressive or "interact with my weapons" (also a nice way to put it Cheesy

). The Demon of Lies behaves like a neutral npc, so I don't think aoe attacks affect him. I tried to use the spider statue on him, which should allow me to attack friendly npc, but I still didn't work.

About your idea:
When the dialog starts, you can mouse over the portraits, to see their attitude (?) towards you. In the case of the bosses it says "neutral", whick means neither me nor my scorpions can attack them. Another problem is that I'm not allowed to move to far away from the fight, as the area would be unloaded.

34:50 :
The reason I walked to the left was that i was exited and thought I was somwhere else. So there was no use to it other than wasting time. It's always good to have somebody pointing out little things to make you think about it again. This way I found several things, so thank you thumbsup

.

As we are already speaking of discovering new things:
Thanks to you, I took another look at the Demons boss room and found something interesting. The statues blocking your path, which you are supposed to activate the levers for, don't block the path for you pyramids. So instead of teleporting through walls, you can go through the entrance door and toss it the rest of the way.
Compared to the current run, that'd save about 30s.

I will be keeping my eyes open for more occasions to save time, so maybe 35min can become a thing.

Ok, now I got it, never thought of the ingame timer to be the difference.

In this case, I think I'll stick to Single Segment without resets. The only benefit making it a RTA would give me, is more safety, which I hope to achieve anyways.
The two most sensitive parts of the run are for one Dr Elraths Note, but as it's early in the run, it's not too bad. The part I'm more worried about is the first Fort. Even with a lot of constitution, the Deathknights still easily kill you with their sword-lightning-attack. While scrolling through the void and after using Wizards Sight they tend to kill me in mere seconds.
If Josephina dropps her Staff outside the room, I'll have to use my pyramids to get there.

If i decided to make the run NG+, it would for one allow me to bring items from another savegame. The first items I could think of were the statue and quest items, although I can't tell yet, if this would be usefull with all these triggers the game has. Further exploration could bring up some new things, but that's not my priority at the moment.

I have not found a way to make the Demon aggressive or "interact with my weapons" (also a nice way to put it :D ). The Demon of Lies behaves like a neutral npc, so I don't think aoe attacks affect him. I tried to use the spider statue on him, which should allow me to attack friendly npc, but I still didn't work.

About your idea:
When the dialog starts, you can mouse over the portraits, to see their attitude (?) towards you. In the case of the bosses it says "neutral", whick means neither me nor my scorpions can attack them. Another problem is that I'm not allowed to move to far away from the fight, as the area would be unloaded.

34:50 :
The reason I walked to the left was that i was exited and thought I was somwhere else. So there was no use to it other than wasting time. It's always good to have somebody pointing out little things to make you think about it again. This way I found several things, so thank you :thumbsup:.

As we are already speaking of discovering new things:
Thanks to you, I took another look at the Demons boss room and found something interesting. The statues blocking your path, which you are supposed to activate the levers for, don't block the path for you pyramids. So instead of teleporting through walls, you can go through the entrance door and toss it the rest of the way.
Compared to the current run, that'd save about 30s.

I will be keeping my eyes open for more occasions to save time, so maybe 35min can become a thing.

LotBlind

2014-12-12 10:15:17 am

The in-game timer thing is critical if it's used for timing the run but here it actually isn't... It's just a way of allowing "true" single segment categories to exist alongside RTA whenever they're not too similar. Either one you submit is okay though.

Those death knights are the worst! They were the only really threatening thing in the last part of my playthrough.

I meant talking to the demon like you talk to NPCs where you lose their friendly status if you don't sheath your sword first.

35 minutes HAS TO become a thing. Or I'll never talk to you again!

Bantaris

2014-12-12 02:19:39 pm

I hope I won't disappoint you, but things are looking quite good so far, as there are already a few changes.

Using the teleporter before talking to the boss (only works at fort #4) could save maybe 15 seconds and teleporting through the statues for the final boss saves about 30 seconds. As going invisible in the treasury lets you skip the poision traps, it also saves some time (maybe 5 seconds).
Today I made another change to the route in the Dark Forest area. Although making it a lot harder, because you have to walk through the OOB area, where you have basically no way to orientate yourself, I timed it and it saved ~55 seconds.
Including all these things in a run as good as the one I just did, would bring the time close to 36:40, which means I'm already halfway there.

I've never been so wrong as to think my route was near perfect, there's always a ton to do.

LotBlind

2014-12-13 08:58:58 am

Absolutely, you can never be sure you've got your game figured out completely...

Bantaris

Edit history:

Bantaris: 2015-01-08 09:39:35 am

Bantaris: 2015-01-07 01:48:13 pm

Bantaris: 2015-01-07 01:47:31 pm

2015-01-07 01:01:09 pm

Reading some articles hoping to find out anything useful, I did indeed find something that promised a lot of potential. People mentioned having problems with their movespeed being permanently reduced and Raze (as he seems to be omniscient for this game) brought up that it might have to do with the Troll King, since he casts a Slow spell.

I guess you know, what I was testing next: Infinite speed?
Already after a couple of tries, I found a way, to stack the effect of crouching and being slowed. Even after the first time, you move really fast, but still not to fast to lose control of the character. It's still slow enough to maneuver inside caves ect.
Repeating the Statue glitch once more, makes you go even faster, and that's where things start to become interesting. At this point you are so fast that you start glitching through walls. The downside of this is that moving in rooms is basically impossible, but crouching helps in these cases.

So while beeing outside where there are few obstacles, you can go to warp speed. If you hit a wall you want to pass through, but you don't have your teleporters with you, running at it, will get you through eventually. Whilst inside, you can crouch to go to a more manageable speed.

As you own the GOG version, would you mind testing some of the glitches or even parts of the route (eg. the Elrath quest, as it might not work the way I do it). I everything works correctly, I'll switch to this version.

EDIT: I uploaded a short demonstration video. This alone saves ~30s.

Reading some articles hoping to find out anything useful, I did indeed find something that promised a lot of potential. People mentioned having problems with their movespeed being permanently reduced and Raze (as he seems to be omniscient for this game) brought up that it might have to do with the Troll King, since he casts a Slow spell.

I guess you know, what I was testing next: Infinite speed?
Already after a couple of tries, I found a way, to stack the effect of crouching and being slowed. Even after the first time, you move really fast, but still not to fast to lose control of the character. It's still slow enough to maneuver inside caves ect.
Repeating the Statue glitch once more, makes you go even faster, and that's where things start to become interesting. At this point you are so fast that you start glitching through walls. The downside of this is that moving in rooms is basically impossible, but crouching helps in these cases.

So while beeing outside where there are few obstacles, you can go to warp speed. If you hit a wall you want to pass through, but you don't have your teleporters with you, running at it, will get you through eventually. Whilst inside, you can crouch to go to a more manageable speed.

As you own the GOG version, would you mind testing some of the glitches or even parts of the route (eg. the Elrath quest, as it might not work the way I do it). I everything works correctly, I'll switch to this version.

EDIT: I uploaded a short demonstration video. This alone saves ~30s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ZCDi9GU14

LotBlind

2015-01-08 11:03:38 am

Hey!

I'm scared of watching that video after your description... I told you! Smiley

I'll launch up the game some day and try to replicate your route. I'll ask you if I have any questions. Wait, so how are you getting the slow effect? You go to the Troll King? And then you do what? Can I have a step by step instructions.

Can't you just toggle always run to control your speed?

Are you sure you can skip the quest triggers for the gnome quest? Doesn't that mess up the game at all?

Bantaris

Edit history:

Bantaris: 2015-01-08 11:35:20 am

Bantaris: 2015-01-08 11:30:26 am

Bantaris: 2015-01-08 11:25:42 am

2015-01-08 11:25:21 am

If you keep your cursor close to your character, toggeling shouldn't be a problem and possibly even faster, but I usually have it, where you'd run anyways. It's just a matter of habit. As far as I can tell, walking is roughly the same speed as crouching and without having to stop to crouch, it should be faster. I'll try to get used to it.

Conveniently the cave of the Troll King is not to far away from the main route, so it's not a big detour.
It works similar to the statue glitch (repeat twice for warp speed):
Wait for the Troll King to cast his Slow spell on you.
Use your statue and crouch during the animation.
Use the statue again and wait for the slow effect to run out.
Uncrouch, be happy and fast.

I tried to implement skipping the bee/hornet quest previously, but it didn't save any time, but I haven't experienced any problems.

Bantaris

2015-01-08 12:00:55 pm

To figure out, how much faster using this glitch actually makes you, I made a few tests. I just ran across part of the top map (top left corner to river), took the times and compared them.

It seems that each "modifier" to your speed (crouch, statue and slow) doubles/halfes your speed. So going at warp speed should be 8x faster than normal running (although times show it's 7,5x).

LotBlind

2015-01-08 12:16:54 pm

So for the record GOG is 1.0061A. I just noticed the game has difficulty settings (!). I guess that means you should include "hard" in your category if that's your chosen one. Otherwise I guess someone could go for "easy" too. It's partially just a matter of game-per-game conventions but normally choosing the easiest or the hardest setting is your safest bet because they make the most sense (and are both almost always allowed). But if for some reason "hard" should be the fastest then there might not be another category.

Why exactly do you wanna switch to my version? It has some nasty bugs actually. There's random SFX white noise sometimes and the musics are a little broken. It's not unplayable but still.

Bantaris

2015-01-08 12:39:50 pm

Actually, the retail version has difficulty settings as well. I don't know of anything that makes harder faster/slower to run, but I've always been going for it. Just to make things more interesting I guess.

Depending on the bugs, it might even be beneficial. But the main reason I'd switch versions is the resolution. Mine runs on max 1024x768 and more vision could be helpful when going even faster. It'd also make recording easier.

LotBlind

2015-01-08 12:56:10 pm

hmm... looks like the guy you first talk to can stock all four kinds of potions that you need. I guess you know this but you just went with whatever luck you could get. Seeing as restarting the run from that point doesn't take long, and especially now that the new trick will cut loads of time off, you should definitely go for manipulating that to get the best-case scenario.

Just to make a note, if you watch the intro cutscene in the middle of an in-game one it makes something a bit weird happens (you lose sight of the world) but can't see any uses for it.

"hard" should have more hp on the bosses so it's definitely slower. This is based on this thread:
http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=348280

Bantaris

Edit history:

Bantaris: 2015-01-08 01:05:01 pm

Bantaris: 2015-01-08 01:04:25 pm

Bantaris: 2015-01-08 01:04:03 pm

2015-01-08 01:03:53 pm

The merchants are also something I'm a bit confused by. As you said, you'd expect them to have different items in stock everytime you restart the game, but for whatever reason, that's not the case for me. I get exactly the same items everytime on every merchant. Maybe they have the same stock to begin with and are random on later restock, but i don't know yet.

If he says so, then it's right. Since there is no reason no to, I'll switch to easy.

LotBlind

2015-01-08 01:44:00 pm

I can confirm that merchant thing. This thread says they restock when you've leveled up...
http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=395465

However it's not that simple. Maybe you also need to go to another location first or something. I checked all my save files and at least the first healer you talk to seems to always have had the exact same potions (which are different from your potions...). Mine had everything except stamina ones (i.e. also shadow). Does the bookcase always have the stamina potion for you? It shouldn't, right? If you can gain a significant amount of time by getting ideal item rolls this unfortunate situation (I presume it would at least change if you installed again) might call for save/loading (or segmenting) to get something you need from a container. I think you've already explained how it is. The only thing that might save you a little time is a statuette without having to go to the magic shop for it right?

It looks like you're clicking the "next line" button to skip dialogues but pressing "enter" also seems to work. Dunno which is better. If you use enter you can already place the cursor where it needs to be afterwards.

My version has a different NPC bring you the pyramid. It also has an extra little dialogue of the character saying "If I wanna get back here I need to drop the pyramid before using it." when you are about to Use the second pyramid to get back to the village. It's fast to skip ofc.

Have you tried throwing the pyramid to skip the cutscene outside the gates? Did that mess up the story? AFAICS only thing he does is trigger an optional quest if you talk to him about it.

I noticed you can place almost anything in your inventory in this game: could it ever be faster to use this to move stuff out of the way instead of dragging them over?

I can tell it's going to take me a long time to actually replicate your route Smiley

there's so many things to try.

I can confirm that merchant thing. This thread says they restock when you've leveled up...
http://www.larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=395465

However it's not that simple. Maybe you also need to go to another location first or something. I checked all my save files and at least the first healer you talk to seems to always have had the exact same potions (which are different from your potions...). Mine had everything except stamina ones (i.e. also shadow). Does the bookcase always have the stamina potion for you? It shouldn't, right? If you can gain a significant amount of time by getting ideal item rolls this unfortunate situation (I presume it would at least change if you installed again) might call for save/loading (or segmenting) to get something you need from a container. I think you've already explained how it is. The only thing that might save you a little time is a statuette without having to go to the magic shop for it right?

It looks like you're clicking the "next line" button to skip dialogues but pressing "enter" also seems to work. Dunno which is better. If you use enter you can already place the cursor where it needs to be afterwards.

My version has a different NPC bring you the pyramid. It also has an extra little dialogue of the character saying "If I wanna get back here I need to drop the pyramid before using it." when you are about to Use the second pyramid to get back to the village. It's fast to skip ofc.

Have you tried throwing the pyramid to skip the cutscene outside the gates? Did that mess up the story? AFAICS only thing he does is trigger an optional quest if you talk to him about it.

I noticed you can place almost anything in your inventory in this game: could it ever be faster to use this to move stuff out of the way instead of dragging them over?

I can tell it's going to take me a long time to actually replicate your route :) there's so many things to try.

ogam

Edit history:

ogam: 2015-01-08 03:35:28 pm

2015-01-08 03:31:18 pm

Throwing your pyramids through the castle gate and using it will cause you to be stuck as the lord protector and soft lock, but that was testing without a castle invitation.

Saving the pyramids for later on to skip zixzax from taking them won't work since he'll teleport block you and take them back until you help zandalor at the council of seven.

Bantaris

Edit history:

Bantaris: 2015-01-09 12:54:06 pm

2015-01-09 08:12:58 am

It's not the bookcase I get the stamina potion from. I buy it from Joram and use the bookcase to duplicate it. Even finding skill books in there wouldn't save time, as I skill them while waiting for a cutscene.

Somehow I missed that pressing "enter" goes to the next line. Unfortunately it doesn't close dialogues, but I'll do it in future.

I get the same dialogue when I use the pyramid from my inventory for the first time.
Another cutscene, which can be skipped: The fist time you meet Zandalor.
While you'd believe it is necessary, it isn't and it can be skipped by throwing your pyramid a little to the south of where it would trigger normaly.

That depends on which gates you mean.
At the gates in Aleroth, you can open them and then throw the pyramdi through it. This allows you to skip the cutscene with Seth. While the main story is not influenced by it, you need to talk to him to start the healer quest, which is one way to obtain the invitation. It's still possible to talk to him without starting the cutscene, but you have to be carefull not to step into the trigger.
The conversations around the gate at Stormfist Castle can't be skipped. If you enter it via your pyramids, you're not introduced as Janus' bodyguard.
Leaving early isn't possible as well. I have tried to do so by glitching through the walls, which gave me some options. I went straight to the Treasure Chamber where you meet Zandalor, avoiding both the quests inside the castle and the prision, but this part of the story wouldn't start. So I continued Stormfist Castle until you get thrown out. Between this and the cutscene with Elona there is an area you can walk around in. I tired to go the opposite direction, gliching to the other side of the castle, but as you leave you get stopped by her.
Using the pyramids and hoping to get past the trigger is also not possible. As the game constantly checks for them to appear either in your inventory or the map and calls Zixtax to get them, I tried to place one inside the castle and one somewhere else before entering Sormfist Castle, but they get disabled after Zixzax should have taken them from you.
It is however be possible to place them in convenient places and use them once they are enabled to skip some walking.

After noticing a misktake of mine, I decided to rework the route up to Stormfist Castle and to go back to Mitox' quests (13 seconds slower) for the invitation. Completing them you receive the portal scroll of the human race, which enables the faster route in Dark Forest (~55 seconds faster), I mentioned earlier.
As passing through walls without pyramids is now possible, I'll look for new ways to save time.

It's not the bookcase I get the stamina potion from. I buy it from Joram and use the bookcase to duplicate it. Even finding skill books in there wouldn't save time, as I skill them while waiting for a cutscene.

Somehow I missed that pressing "enter" goes to the next line. Unfortunately it doesn't close dialogues, but I'll do it in future.

I get the same dialogue when I use the pyramid from my inventory for the first time.
Another cutscene, which can be skipped: The fist time you meet Zandalor.
While you'd believe it is necessary, it isn't and it can be skipped by throwing your pyramid a little to the south of where it would trigger normaly.

That depends on which gates you mean.
At the gates in Aleroth, you can open them and then throw the pyramdi through it. This allows you to skip the cutscene with Seth. While the main story is not influenced by it, you need to talk to him to start the healer quest, which is one way to obtain the invitation. It's still possible to talk to him without starting the cutscene, but you have to be carefull not to step into the trigger.
The conversations around the gate at Stormfist Castle can't be skipped. If you enter it via your pyramids, you're not introduced as Janus' bodyguard.
Leaving early isn't possible as well. I have tried to do so by glitching through the walls, which gave me some options. I went straight to the Treasure Chamber where you meet Zandalor, avoiding both the quests inside the castle and the prision, but this part of the story wouldn't start. So I continued Stormfist Castle until you get thrown out. Between this and the cutscene with Elona there is an area you can walk around in. I tired to go the opposite direction, gliching to the other side of the castle, but as you leave you get stopped by her.
Using the pyramids and hoping to get past the trigger is also not possible. As the game constantly checks for them to appear either in your inventory or the map and calls Zixtax to get them, I tried to place one inside the castle and one somewhere else before entering Sormfist Castle, but they get disabled after Zixzax should have taken them from you.
It is however be possible to place them in convenient places and use them once they are enabled to skip some walking.

After noticing a misktake of mine, I decided to rework the route up to Stormfist Castle and to go back to Mitox' quests (13 seconds slower) for the invitation. Completing them you receive the portal scroll of the human race, which enables the faster route in Dark Forest (~55 seconds faster), I mentioned earlier.
As passing through walls without pyramids is now possible, I'll look for new ways to save time.

LotBlind

2015-01-09 01:45:35 pm

I had another idea earlier: is it beneficial for you to pick up a container (put it into your inventory opened so it doesn't weight anything) and use it for duping later?

I was talking about the early game (I'm still in the first town for now), throwing the pyramid to skip Seth but nvm then.

I'll check out more stuff when I can.

Bantaris

2015-01-09 04:03:06 pm

That's indeed a very good idea, espacially when they are weightless, although as of yet, I can't think of a way to use it. Later on, I mostly duplicate the scorpion traps, but as I always keep more than two, which makes using negative inputs is faster. Containers are required for items you only have one of or ones that can't be stacked.

If you ever want to get more than one pyramid, there is a faster way to get them. Click and drag one of them and then use the "Use Pyramid" skill so the dialogue pops up. Close it and immediatly press "Esc". Leave the menu and you should have two in your inventory. From there on you can use the other method.
Earlier I noticed that placing items using the split menu, causes them to reach their destination immediatly. Unfortunately the pyramids don't work like that. They need to be placed properly to work.

As it skips the cutscene in which Seth kills the orcs, I'm glad you noticed it.

I was taking another look at the map of the Rivertown Sewers and I have been fooled. Some text covered up part of the map, so I missed a connection and took a long way around.

Thanks a lot for reviewing some parts. You've aready spotted several things I missed.

That's indeed a very good idea, espacially when they are weightless, although as of yet, I can't think of a way to use it. Later on, I mostly duplicate the scorpion traps, but as I always keep more than two, which makes using negative inputs is faster. Containers are required for items you only have one of or ones that can't be stacked.

If you ever want to get more than one pyramid, there is a faster way to get them. Click and drag one of them and then use the "Use Pyramid" skill so the dialogue pops up. Close it and immediatly press "Esc". Leave the menu and you should have two in your inventory. From there on you can use the other method.
Earlier I noticed that placing items using the split menu, causes them to reach their destination immediatly. Unfortunately the pyramids don't work like that. They need to be placed properly to work.

As it skips the cutscene in which Seth kills the orcs, I'm glad you noticed it.

I was taking another look at the map of the Rivertown Sewers and I have been fooled. Some text covered up part of the map, so I missed a connection and took a long way around.

Thanks a lot for reviewing some parts. You've aready spotted several things I missed.

LotBlind

2015-01-11 02:35:26 pm

Yup still gonna get back on this maybe next week. Make sure to add everything to the tricks page.

LotBlind

2015-01-14 11:54:22 am

So I managed to recreate the statue glitch finally (I missed the part that you have to do it DURING the animation) and I managed to get a lot of speed with the help of the Troll King! I can't tell if it works exactly the same but I guess it does. Unfortunately I'm running into a fatal bug that makes the game unplayable after talking to Doc. Elrath. It places the camera in the top left corner of the world (I think) and never leaves a cutscene that doesn't play out.

Someone says they can throw the stone in through the window:
http://members.shaw.ca/divineone/elrathbreakin.jpg

Maybe it's the same through the wall trick..?

Bantaris

Edit history:

Bantaris: 2015-01-16 03:34:05 am

2015-01-15 12:42:43 pm

It's good to hear that at least the most important glitches work, I suppose duplication works as well, as you haven't mentioned any problems with that.
On the retail version, the cutscene that play when you talk to Elrath for the first time shows a lot of npcs piled up on one spot. Maybe, just like with items, the game teleports them in, whenever they are needed, which in this case is a Guard. You could try to start the cutscene the way it's supposed to be done by visiting the enterance to the quarantined area in the poor quaters (for reference: http://kiya.xanlosch.de/Div_poor.jpg.html) and go to his house afterwards.

At some point I did this on accident, but I could never figure out how. This should be able to save a some time on this route. On some locations the collision (if that's what you'd call it) seems to be buggy, although they're usually too small and specific to hit consistently. This is different from eg. the boss doors, which the game simply doesn't see as an obstacle.
I'll keep my eyes open for other similar places.

On my last run I ran into a problem, which I think is caused by the difficulty setting. Setting it to easy makes everything weaker: bosses, monsters, but apparently also the scorpion traps. While on hard, killing the Succubus can be a matter of 1-2 seconds, on easy I sat there for about a minute. It's possible I did something very wrong, but if that keeps happening, I'll have to go back to hard.

There are a couple adjustments to be done in the forts. Instead of using the pyramids to skip the mazes, it's faster to walk through the walls, which allows you to throw the teleports earlier. It's happened that I downed the boss so fast (they take 2-3 seconds), the pyramids didn't have enough time to land at the next forts. This method is also safer, as you won't uncloak if you fail, which gives monsters time to kill you (I'm looking at you Death Knights Angry

).
Generaly speaking, the teleportes are faster for long distances and situations you want to use them multiple times (eg. Elrath's house).

It's good to hear that at least the most important glitches work, I suppose duplication works as well, as you haven't mentioned any problems with that.
On the retail version, the cutscene that play when you talk to Elrath for the first time shows a lot of npcs piled up on one spot. Maybe, just like with items, the game teleports them in, whenever they are needed, which in this case is a Guard. You could try to start the cutscene the way it's supposed to be done by visiting the enterance to the quarantined area in the poor quaters (for reference: http://kiya.xanlosch.de/Div_poor.jpg.html) and go to his house afterwards.

At some point I did this on accident, but I could never figure out how. This should be able to save a some time on this route. On some locations the collision (if that's what you'd call it) seems to be buggy, although they're usually too small and specific to hit consistently. This is different from eg. the boss doors, which the game simply doesn't see as an obstacle.
I'll keep my eyes open for other similar places.

On my last run I ran into a problem, which I think is caused by the difficulty setting. Setting it to easy makes everything weaker: bosses, monsters, but apparently also the scorpion traps. While on hard, killing the Succubus can be a matter of 1-2 seconds, on easy I sat there for about a minute. It's possible I did something very wrong, but if that keeps happening, I'll have to go back to hard.

There are a couple adjustments to be done in the forts. Instead of using the pyramids to skip the mazes, it's faster to walk through the walls, which allows you to throw the teleports earlier. It's happened that I downed the boss so fast (they take 2-3 seconds), the pyramids didn't have enough time to land at the next forts. This method is also safer, as you won't uncloak if you fail, which gives monsters time to kill you (I'm looking at you Death Knights >:( ).
Generaly speaking, the teleportes are faster for long distances and situations you want to use them multiple times (eg. Elrath's house).

LotBlind

2015-01-16 12:08:08 pm

Pyramid throwing also seems to work now that I worked out how you're supposed to do it. Maybe there's benefits in using caps lock instead of shift btw? Like you could be doing something in the location you're in while already scrolling with caps lock. You could even make your character run in the direction you're scrolling (but not other directions ofc), throw, return back to your location, do whatever you were meant to do in the place you ran to, then teleport.

I think using CAPS LOCK might have other benefits too. Could it reduce lag if you're running off screen? You should mess around with it in general.

Ah yeah duplication (negative stack method) works. I can't get the containers method to work though. What happens is the item I was holding disappears until the game is unpaused. Do you ever use this for anything though? Provided you don't need to buy single potions like in the current run. And even if Jooram (or whatever his name is) doesn't stock all the potions you'll need, you don't really need to buy them until you get to the magic shop.

The save/load version works! I tested this loading a pyramid from a save to a quickload file. I actually also noticed you can just use drop&use to actually make the new TP stone work. It places you in the destination that is the latter other pyramid stone you placed. At least that's what happened for me. So stone A took me to stone B, C (the quickloaded and drop&used one) also took me to B, B took me to C. After this I got two "ancient pyramids" (why are they suddenly called that) from a save from the wasteland area. Having just one didn't seem to do anything but now those two teleport to each other... So you could definitely do more with TP stones/Ancient Pyramids.

After that I got one more TP stone pyramid and it did the same as A, tp to B and B still to C.

Come to think of it, why can't you just wait until you get to the town with the magic shop to dupe potions? You won't need them before then anyway. Or get whatever you can from Joorim and the rest from Ars.

Re. difficulty settings and scorpions: could well be one of the game's myriad bugs.

Troll king: I didn't realize there were more than one. There's a second one near the archer's guild but I guess that's out of the way. I'm reading your description of the speed glitch using the troll king method but I'm not sure if I ever gained 8x speed because while moving really fast I couldn't run through a fence. Maybe it only works in some places or I was doing something wrong. Your game seems to be running faster than mine in general (slow computer) so maybe even that could affect this.

Pyramid throwing also seems to work now that I worked out how you're supposed to do it. Maybe there's benefits in using caps lock instead of shift btw? Like you could be doing something in the location you're in while already scrolling with caps lock. You could even make your character run in the direction you're scrolling (but not other directions ofc), throw, return back to your location, do whatever you were meant to do in the place you ran to, then teleport.

I think using CAPS LOCK might have other benefits too. Could it reduce lag if you're running off screen? You should mess around with it in general.

Ah yeah duplication (negative stack method) works. I can't get the containers method to work though. What happens is the item I was holding disappears until the game is unpaused. Do you ever use this for anything though? Provided you don't need to buy single potions like in the current run. And even if Jooram (or whatever his name is) doesn't stock all the potions you'll need, you don't really need to buy them until you get to the magic shop.

The save/load version works! I tested this loading a pyramid from a save to a quickload file. I actually also noticed you can just use drop&use to actually make the new TP stone work. It places you in the destination that is the latter other pyramid stone you placed. At least that's what happened for me. So stone A took me to stone B, C (the quickloaded and drop&used one) also took me to B, B took me to C. After this I got two "ancient pyramids" (why are they suddenly called that) from a save from the wasteland area. Having just one didn't seem to do anything but now those two teleport to each other... So you could definitely do more with TP stones/Ancient Pyramids.

After that I got one more TP stone pyramid and it did the same as A, tp to B and B still to C.

Come to think of it, why can't you just wait until you get to the town with the magic shop to dupe potions? You won't need them before then anyway. Or get whatever you can from Joorim and the rest from Ars.

Re. difficulty settings and scorpions: could well be one of the game's myriad bugs.

Troll king: I didn't realize there were more than one. There's a second one near the archer's guild but I guess that's out of the way. I'm reading your description of the speed glitch using the troll king method but I'm not sure if I ever gained 8x speed because while moving really fast I couldn't run through a fence. Maybe it only works in some places or I was doing something wrong. Your game seems to be running faster than mine in general (slow computer) so maybe even that could affect this.

Bantaris

Edit history:

Bantaris: 2015-01-16 03:02:17 pm

2015-01-16 03:00:15 pm

I can't tell why the other method doesn't work, but maybe it wouldn't be necessary in the GOG version. Just to be sure: Grab the item and hover over the container, pause the game and press ESC, let go of mouseclick, close the menu and unpause.

Buying the potions later might actually be faster. When buying them in Aleroth I have to spend time on duplication the Stamina potion, however I don't have to duplicate my money twice to get enough to buy 4x 150 potions (idk if I need that many, I'll see after my next run) and I won't get as far, since without the Stamina potions at one point my stamina runs out. Which way round would be faster, will take a bit of testing.

EDIT: It is faster to buy them later.

The situation the pyramids don't work after duplication is a bit different. Using the split-stack menu (which requires you to have at least 2) to drop the pyramids, causes them to land instantly, but also to not work.

For scrolling with CAPS LOCK, I'll see if I can find more.

Toll King: To go fast enough, you have to succefully use the glitch twice. The first time you get 4x speed, next use gives you 8x speed. When you have the correct speed, clicking on the ground to move, sometimes your character runs somewhere else (usually a bit in the opposite direction). I doubt that lag is an issue for such an old game, even with a slower computer

I can't tell why the other method doesn't work, but maybe it wouldn't be necessary in the GOG version. Just to be sure: Grab the item and hover over the container, pause the game and press ESC, let go of mouseclick, close the menu and unpause.

Buying the potions later might actually be faster. When buying them in Aleroth I have to spend time on duplication the Stamina potion, however I don't have to duplicate my money twice to get enough to buy 4x 150 potions (idk if I need that many, I'll see after my next run) and I won't get as far, since without the Stamina potions at one point my stamina runs out. Which way round would be faster, will take a bit of testing.

EDIT: It is faster to buy them later.

The situation the pyramids don't work after duplication is a bit different. Using the split-stack menu (which requires you to have at least 2) to drop the pyramids, causes them to land instantly, but also to not work.

For scrolling with CAPS LOCK, I'll see if I can find more.

Toll King: To go fast enough, you have to succefully use the glitch twice. The first time you get 4x speed, next use gives you 8x speed. When you have the correct speed, clicking on the ground to move, sometimes your character runs somewhere else (usually a bit in the opposite direction). I doubt that lag is an issue for such an old game, even with a slower computer