Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction -> Druid run

2005-11-13 03:15:12 am

Quote:

As for Diablo being dumb, he is still the hardest of the big three to kill IMO.

As he should be, he's got gobs of Hp, (iirc) 60% block, and though his attacks are random, they pack a considerable punch. Tongue

Hmm... so from what I hear, the pally's elemental auras are pretty strong... Is holy fire just early-game powerful, or could a HF build move into nm or even hell? maybe i should try playing a couple pally builds...

Oh yeah, how do you guys get used to using potions/etc out of your inventory? i try to use it when i can (the advantages are obvious) but damn is it awkward.

jimsfriend

2005-11-13 03:24:40 am

Like A Fox

I've gotten into the bad habit of drinking potions out of my inventory only. The potions in my belt stay in my belt.

With maxed synergies: Holy Fire
Current Skill Level: 20
Radius: 16.6 yards
Fire Damage: 643-713 to your attack
Fire Damage: 107.2-118.8

With no synergies
Current Skill Level: 20
Radius: 16.6 yards
Fire Damage: 111-123 to your attack
Fire Damage: 18.5-20.5

I would have to say this damage would be worthless in Hell. At level 50 with maxed synergies, it does 4k added to attack and 650 damage to nearby enemies. Not really all that good (can't leach fire damage and many monsters would be immune).

Pweisger

2005-11-13 06:32:56 am

PwNzRd!

I have been had... Cry

Gorash

2005-11-13 12:56:31 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Quote:

I've gotten into the bad habit of drinking potions out of my inventory only. The potions in my belt stay in my belt.

With maxed synergies: Holy Fire
Current Skill Level: 20
Radius: 16.6 yards
Fire Damage: 643-713 to your attack
Fire Damage: 107.2-118.8

With no synergies
Current Skill Level: 20
Radius: 16.6 yards
Fire Damage: 111-123 to your attack
Fire Damage: 18.5-20.5

I would have to say this damage would be worthless in Hell. At level 50 with maxed synergies, it does 4k added to attack and 650 damage to nearby enemies. Not really all that good (can't leach fire damage and many monsters would be immune).

Would fall into the same category as the fire claws druid. Pick a mad fast weapon (6shael phase blade) and hack away.

Btw. didn't they fix the shif+left click on non sellable item bug in 1.11? I remember reading something like that in the patchlogs.

Twisted Synapse

2005-11-13 03:51:33 pm

Yeah those numbers don't look too impressive, then again I'm generally the type to nab risky multi-thousand damage abilities.

And I do seem to remember reading about that bug being fixed, but I'm by no means eager to go trying to sell my cube.

Also, I must wonder if that dreaded AR problem couldn't be gone around with some Eth runes? -25% enemy defense is actually quite useful (four Eths and your AR no longer matters at ALL). Though I can imagine the pain of getting both eth runes and socketed weapons (luck manipulation seems the obvious way, but it'd still be a pain i'm sure).

Though when i think about it, D might be the game-breaker for a melee run; you can't do damage while you're running around his various attacks (although some mad poison could fix that somewhat) and he has 60% block... Although the sheer attack speed of something like the DS baba could get past this, I don't envy the guy trying it. Tongue

Gorash

2005-11-13 04:58:43 pm

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Well you know how it is, someone has to try it, and you'll curse a lot if someone else does and your ideas prove right.
Wink

Also I did Diablo with a melee char already, it was a fire claws sin. It's not that hard, all you have to have is something that reduces frost length so you can still run away when he frosts you.

Twisted_Synapse

2005-11-13 07:51:51 pm

Clarity through Insanity

Makes me wonder how viable the elemental claw skills are... never really used the charge-ups much, myself.

I'm finding myself playing and planning more like a speedrunner, and am even considering trying some early-game builds (things that'd be good for a run, but crap for Hell). Though planning a char out to level 85 - and not having it suck early-game - is quite fun, too. Tongue

Hmm... maybe i should speed up my mouse's moving speed (as in, speed settings, not just my movements) and practice rapidly using stuff from my inv. Any advice on getting good with that, or is it just a matter of practicing?

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-11-13 08:38:02 pm

2005-11-13 08:36:28 pm

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From my experience most speed in Diablo comes from luck. Also inventory management isn't that often necessary (even more if you use all the shortcuts available). Vendors are the only thing where you need to do stuff quickly, every other visit in the inventory should be limited to 1-2 seconds. I consider myself pretty weak with fast mouse movement to be honest (only if not grabbing drops of course...)

If you want to practice, then rather practice fast situation analysis. Getting hit means in most cases a tenfold loss in time, because your current action is interrupted, you get into hit recovery, have to worry about other monsters hitting you again, need to gulp down a heal pot, which then has to be refilled later, costing you more time. So try to get through the situations avoiding getting hit.

Before the first SDA runs got made I used to run act1 with a friend. Make new chars and without knowing the map (hardly possible in multiplayer) complete act1 together as fast as possible.

Pweisger

2005-11-14 02:27:21 am

PwNzRd!

Will no one dare venture into nightmare or hell difficulty?

Gorash

2005-11-14 02:38:33 am

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Don't think so. If you do it with a preset char all diversity goes down, lv50 sorc with the best equip normal Baal can drop is fastest. Period. Boring.

And if you include a normal run, then you'll have a long thing to do. And it would still be a sorc...

Besides, I want to see the other 5 (or 4) chars on normal done...

Zurreco

Edit history:

Zurreco: 2005-11-14 07:11:20 am

2005-11-14 02:39:36 am

Just call me the cynicism machine

Well, Nightmare and Hell have too many extenuating circumstances. Starting a normal character grants you the same stats and skills and equipment off of the bat guaranteed. Nightmare and Hell could technically be started in an almost uninfintesimal (read: infinite) amount of ways, be it stat spreads to skill sets to equipment. There is no standard to work by.

Also, Nightmare and Hell would just be Normal with more time slashing and less time moving. While I am for games being speedrun'd on their highest difficulty, Diablo II on higher difficulties amounts to more pain and less pleasure.

Still, feel free to test the waters, if you want.

jimsfriend

Edit history:

jimsfriend: 2005-11-14 04:19:38 am

2005-11-14 04:18:20 am

Like A Fox

If you have 4 eth runes for -100% defense, does that count for the weapon in your other hand too? If so, double swing for the barb could have a weak 4 eth sword in one hand and a power damage weapon in the other (4 socket ith+tal maybe) then Diablo would be much easier. Unfortunately the level requirement is kind of high, but since it is a melee build I would think more leveling would be required anyway. For finding these runes you could use luck manipulation and at the beginning of every segment (except the first one) kill the countess for her 1-2 rune drop and if you get an eth, ith, or tir then go on with that segment.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=infinitesimal
Zurreco, I think you meant infinite.

Twisted_Synapse

Edit history:

Twisted_Synapse: 2005-11-14 05:42:43 am

2005-11-14 05:07:31 am

Clarity through Insanity

I'm fairly certain mods such as -def, -%def, etc are weapon-specific, But I can easily test this (a good editor makes these tests easy). I'll just plant a low-level char in nm or hell with a few weapons of varying mods and see what he can hit.

Even if it is weapon-specific, a single eth in each weapon can make a huge difference. I think i'll go test that stuff out while it's in my head.

EDIT: I've tried it and have concluded -%def is weapon-specific. in Hell with a level 15 char (req level of Eth rune) i had 5% chance to hit a fallen. I used sets of weapons which had Freezes Target in one hand, and Blinds Target in the other. with both weapons having -100% i still only had what seemed a 50% chance to hit a basic Hell fallen (this leads me to believe level has a HUGE roll in this, which is news to me), with the blind hand at -100% and freeze with no -%def at all i managed to trigger blind on the fallen probably 30 times out of close to 50 double swings, and freeze twice (min 5% chance to hit).

I used level 8 double swing for all of this, no masteries, just DS and some custom handaxes.

EDIT2: Now that I'm looking at the sin (gonna try a fire claw sin, can someone give me the rundown of that build?), what about a kicksin? lvl1 skill with some +AR, all you'd need is decent boots (could gamble for better boots later if need be). The damage is 50/50 str/dex and the kicks cause KB, which sends critters into hit recovery. You could also nab either dual claws and claw block or throw on a shield (neither will get you very good numbers, but every little bit helps, right? :P). With a little BoS you could kick fairly fast for some decent damage maybe?

I'm fairly certain mods such as -def, -%def, etc are weapon-specific, But I can easily test this (a good editor makes these tests easy).  I'll just plant a low-level char in nm or hell with a few weapons of varying mods and see what he can hit.

Even if it is weapon-specific, a single eth in each weapon can make a huge difference.  I think i'll go test that stuff out while it's in my head.

EDIT: I've tried it and have concluded -%def is weapon-specific.  in Hell with a level 15 char (req level of Eth rune) i had 5% chance to hit a fallen.  I used sets of weapons which had Freezes Target in one hand, and Blinds Target in the other.  with both weapons having -100% i still only had what seemed a 50% chance to hit a basic Hell fallen (this leads me to believe level has a HUGE roll in this, which is news to me), with the blind hand at -100% and freeze with no -%def at all i managed to trigger blind on the fallen probably 30 times out of close to 50 double swings, and freeze twice (min 5% chance to hit).

I used level 8 double swing for all of this, no masteries, just DS and some custom handaxes.

EDIT2:  Now that I'm looking at the sin (gonna try a fire claw sin, can someone give me the rundown of that build?), what about a kicksin?  lvl1 skill with some +AR, all you'd need is decent boots (could gamble for better boots later if need be).  The damage is 50/50 str/dex and the kicks cause KB, which sends critters into hit recovery.  You could also nab either dual claws and claw block or throw on a shield (neither will get you very good numbers, but every little bit helps, right? :P).  With a little BoS you could kick fairly fast for some decent damage maybe?

Zurreco

2005-11-14 07:10:25 am

Just call me the cynicism machine

Quote:

Zurreco, I think you meant infinite.

YOU'VE WON THIS ROUND, FRIEND OF JIM!

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-11-14 04:58:28 pm

2005-11-14 12:24:37 pm

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Gaaaah, what do you expect?
If you greatly increase monster level, AR and monster def is not important anymore.

The formula to calculate hit percentage is:

(Own-AR + Monster-Def) / (2*Monster-Def) * (Own-Level + Monster-Level) / (2*Monster-Level)

So even if you reduce the Monster-Def to the minimum value (it's then capped to 95%) the difference in level will result in a multiplicator of (15+66)/132 = 61%, which totals in just over 58% chance to hit. This is the same effect as versus Baal because incidently Baal in normal has a similar level as a Fallen in hell.

And btw.: You cannot get a 4 socketed weapon in normal. I don't know why exactly, but even with socketing quest, stuff that dropped in normal gets at most 3 sockets.

On your edit2:
- BoS is amust.
- shield is better than 2nd claw if you want block chance, low level and lots of dex are sure 50%+ block. However, fire claws gain a charge from every hit with two claws so fighting gets a huge boost from two claws. I went two claws.
- kicksin? Hmm, never tried that but I think without finding exceptional boots in act4 you'll be screwed.

I'll look up my notes from that char for you...
Edit: even better, I still have the saves on my webspace.
Grab them here, it's the char "alotfaster". Played on 8pl though, hence the long time and the high level, but for testing it should be ok.

Gaaaah, what do you expect?
If you greatly increase monster level, AR and monster def is not important anymore.

The formula to calculate hit percentage is:

(Own-AR + Monster-Def) / (2*Monster-Def) * (Own-Level + Monster-Level) / (2*Monster-Level)

So even if you reduce the Monster-Def to the minimum value (it's then capped to 95%) the difference in level will result in a multiplicator of (15+66)/132 = 61%, which totals in just over 58% chance to hit. This is the same effect as versus Baal because incidently Baal in normal has a similar level as a Fallen in hell.

And btw.: You cannot get a 4 socketed weapon in normal. I don't know why exactly, but even with socketing quest, stuff that dropped in normal gets at most 3 sockets.

On your edit2:
- BoS is amust.
- shield is better than 2nd claw if you want block chance, low level and lots of dex are sure 50%+ block. However, fire claws gain a charge from every hit with two claws so fighting gets a huge boost from two claws. I went two claws.
- kicksin? Hmm, never tried that but I think without finding exceptional boots in act4 you'll be screwed.

I'll look up my notes from that char for you...
Edit: even better, I still have the saves on my webspace. 
[url=http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0016830/d2/]Grab them here[/url], it's the char "alotfaster". Played on 8pl though, hence the long time and the high level, but for testing it should be ok.

Twisted_Synapse

Edit history:

Twisted_Synapse: 2005-11-14 05:32:52 pm

2005-11-14 04:30:59 pm

Clarity through Insanity

That hitrate stuff. Whoa. I somehow didn't know this stuff.

The sockets things is more-or-less true, as item sockets is based on item level, which is based on mlvl etc etc.. Basically, you could get more than three sockets, just not until late in normal where monster and area levels start to go up. As for my items, hax. No, seriously Tongue

As for the claw block vs shield thing, yes early on dex+shield would likely be better, especially since you can block while moving (claw block is only attacking or standing still) albeit at a reduced rate (1/3 while running). Claw-block though doesn't need dex at all and can block any form of attack except Smite (heard about this from various pvp forums, dunno if it's true). a few points of claw-block could maybe let you slouch on res (not that low res stopped anyone yet).

Oh hell, if claw-block can't block smite... one of Dury's main attacks is Smite! Angry

I'll check out that char you linked next time i play D2 (just waking up, need food).

EDIT: aw crap totally forgot My thing i was gonna say about the kicksin... But the damage on a kicksin is by no means a problem, you shouldn't need higher types of boots til you could buy em in a shop, the damage from whatever boots you can nab should be impressive. I was ~lv8 wearing heavy boots with slvl6 talon doing around 50 max i think..? I'll need to go check back on that. Anyways, the one big thing about talon is every six levels (not hard points, even +skills does this) gives another kick (6, 12, 18..) up to the max of 6 kicks at slvl30. iirc the best speed (or maybe the only speed, do kicks even use IAS?) was 7 frames on the opening kick, 3 on the rest. The only possible downside is that 6 mana cost, but wasn't marsh using traps that cost waaay more than that? Didn't seem to bother him Tongue

Also, +damage of all sorts should work with talon; i know elemental damage does. Talon won't show the added damage on the char screen, but you will see the effects of it (chill from cold dmg etc). I think procing mods work with talon, too, which means getting a claw with amp on striking could help rip up bosses (you'd be kicking at near-zeal speeds so it should trigger eventually on super tough critters). Right now I've got a kicksin in act1 mostly going players2-4 so it's no speedrun, but later i intend to make here a set of Strength (amn+tir) katars or blade talons (katars have -10 speed and talons have -20, making them the fastest normal claws) for the 25% crushing blow (and +20 str :o).

I'm really making this post long as hell... anyways EDIT2:
Noes your fire claws sin is using a cestus (slowest of all claws aghh) in her off hand. It's obviously for the added damage, though. Looks like you were building her for late-game with the single points into things like fade and shadow warrior (coulda put those two points into claw block mister :P).

Now as for that kicksin, at lvl12 with slvl 9 talon my current sin is doing 2 hits for 25-33 without boots, 38-59 with chain boots. Also i have rediscovered that it's not 50/50 str/dex for damage, it's roughly 60%/50% str/dex (i.e., str counts considerably more). also for the best kick speed (nabbed from diabloii.net, sorry i can't grab some more complete formulae for damage/speed/etc)
WSM [-30] Slvl 1 BoS + 19% IAS
WSM [-20] Slvl 3 BoS + 29% IAS
WSM [-10] Slvl 2 BoS + 40% IAS / Slvl 4 BoS + 29% IAS
WSM [0] Slvl 5 BoS + 40% IAS / Slvl 9 BoS + 29% IAS
-Where WSM is base weapon speed. Katars are -10, claws -10, blade talons -20. iirc the cestus is something like 30. When using two claws, kicks will use the average of the WSM of your two claws (i.e., one blade talon and one cestus would mean a kick WSM of 5).

Also good could be Steel (tir+el) for swords/axes/maces for its ~25-33% open wounds, or malice (any melee, even claws Ith+El+Eth) for 100% OW. The OW would be doing phys damage based on your level while you aren't able to hit yourself (great for dealing with say Diablo's high block), and with a speed-oriented attack such as double swing, zeal, or talon you could trigger it pretty reliably.

That hitrate stuff.  Whoa.  I somehow didn't know this stuff.

The sockets things is more-or-less true, as item sockets is based on item level, which is based on mlvl etc etc..  Basically, you [i]could[/i] get more than three sockets, just not until late in normal where monster and area levels start to go up.  As for my items, hax.  No, seriously :P

As for the claw block vs shield thing, yes early on dex+shield would likely be better, especially since you can block while moving (claw block is only attacking or standing still) albeit at a reduced rate (1/3 while running).  Claw-block though doesn't need dex at all and can block [i]any form of attack[/i] except Smite (heard about this from various pvp forums, dunno if it's true).  a few points of claw-block could maybe let you slouch on res (not that low res stopped anyone yet).

Oh hell, if claw-block can't block smite... one of Dury's main attacks is Smite!  >:(

I'll check out that char you linked next time i play D2 (just waking up, need food).

EDIT: aw crap totally forgot My thing i was gonna say about the kicksin...  But the damage on a kicksin is by no means a problem, you shouldn't need higher types of boots til you could buy em in a shop, the damage from whatever boots you can nab should be impressive.  I was ~lv8 wearing heavy boots with slvl6 talon doing around 50 max i think..?  I'll need to go check back on that.  Anyways, the one big thing about talon is every six levels (not hard points, even +skills does this) gives another kick (6, 12, 18..) up to the max of 6 kicks at slvl30.  iirc the best speed (or maybe the only speed, do kicks even [i]use[/i] IAS?) was 7 frames on the opening kick, 3 on the rest.  The only possible downside is that 6 mana cost, but wasn't marsh using traps that cost waaay more than that?  Didn't seem to bother him :P

Also, +damage of all sorts should work with talon; i know elemental damage does.  Talon won't show the added damage on the char screen, but you will see the effects of it (chill from cold dmg etc).  I [i]think[/i] procing mods work with talon, too, which means getting a claw with amp on striking could help rip up bosses (you'd be kicking at near-zeal speeds so it should trigger eventually on super tough critters).  Right now I've got a kicksin in act1 mostly going players2-4 so it's no speedrun, but later i intend to make here a set of Strength (amn+tir) katars or blade talons (katars have -10 speed and talons have -20, making them the fastest normal claws) for the 25% crushing blow (and +20 str :o).

I'm really making this post long as hell... anyways EDIT2:
Noes your fire claws sin is using a cestus (slowest of all claws aghh) in her off hand.  It's obviously for the added damage, though.  Looks like you were building her for late-game with the single points into things like fade and shadow warrior (coulda put those two points into claw block mister :P).

Now as for that kicksin, at lvl12 with slvl 9 talon my current sin is doing 2 hits for 25-33 without boots, 38-59 with chain boots.  Also i have rediscovered that it's not 50/50 str/dex for damage, it's roughly 60%/50% str/dex (i.e., str counts considerably more). also for the best kick speed (nabbed from diabloii.net, sorry i can't grab some more complete formulae for damage/speed/etc)
WSM [-30] Slvl 1 BoS + 19% IAS
WSM [-20] Slvl 3 BoS + 29% IAS
WSM [-10] Slvl 2 BoS + 40% IAS / Slvl 4 BoS + 29% IAS
WSM [0] Slvl 5 BoS + 40% IAS / Slvl 9 BoS + 29% IAS
-Where WSM is base weapon speed.  Katars are -10, claws -10, blade talons -20.  iirc the cestus is something like 30.  When using two claws, kicks will use the [i]average[/i] of the WSM of your two claws (i.e., one blade talon and one cestus would mean a kick WSM of 5).

Also good could be Steel (tir+el) for swords/axes/maces for its ~25-33% open wounds, or malice (any melee, even claws Ith+El+Eth) for 100% OW.  The OW would be doing phys damage based on your level while you aren't able to hit yourself (great for dealing with say Diablo's high block), and with a speed-oriented attack such as double swing, zeal, or talon you could trigger it pretty reliably.

acxy500

2006-01-07 06:25:27 pm

YES!! (this has nothing to do with the run though)
A record is made 4 posts in a row from a same person. Ooh, I've been searchig for that kinda thing. And now I've found it! Grin

yay

jimsfriend

2006-01-07 06:40:47 pm

Like A Fox

Last 3 posts of page one and first post of page 2 for those of you that don't want to look.

tenfoLd

2006-01-08 12:23:55 am

http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=consoles_newer;action=display;num=1120629616;start= this one is more check out joshs posts Tongue

jimsfriend

2006-01-08 03:31:40 am

Like A Fox

http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=main;action=display;num=1062712843;start=
Eight. Of course, this was over two years ago and it seems the rules were a little bit more lax in the beginning... Rules? What rules?