Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction -> Druid run

Pweisger

2005-08-09 07:30:42 am

PwNzRd!

How deliciously evil!

Mkt2015

2005-08-09 10:16:04 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

Is this being treated as simply the fastest you can get through it or the fastest per character? Considering that each character has completely different abilities and even sub-characters of the same class have very different strategies, I'm a bit surprised that if one run (sorc) beats the (assa) then the assassin run gets taken away.

A druid could go completely elemental or become a wolf and just use hunger on bosses to make sure you stay alive. Going elemental would probably be longer, but would the run have to be under 2 hours? There is a 7 hour cap.

A barbarian has that nifty jump ability and many ways of manipulating enemies.

Couldn't a paladdin go thorns all the way. Even on a low level most enemies die just by trying to attack you. I know this wouldn't work on bosses...but it would definitely be funny to watch a pal run through Hell while enemies just killed themselves in his path.

Just some thoughts.

Gorash

2005-08-09 11:43:26 am

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Well at the moment Diablo2 is one category for each class.
But since every character of one class starts with the same ability, I don't see the need for different categories for each build ("look, I made a smite pala run, clobbering baal to death took only 4 hours").

Paladin thorns has been considered, but seeing the insane damage the pala gets from his elemental auras, namely holy fire, thorns is out of question.

As for the druid, ask marsh, he finished a druid with the fire elemental tree, and he did so quite fast, he said the skills were very hard to place correctly later.

Siyko

2005-08-09 02:24:42 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

I didn't know that jimsfriend. I've tried swapping map files though, and they seem to have some sort of tie to teh character, and D2 starts barfing when you switch them. I'm sure theres some hex edit you could do, but I haven't put too much work into figuring it out.

I think one run per class is fine. If a fire sorc beats the lightning sorc, then take down the lightning sorc. The other player is taking the same starting position, and simply going a different route. Otherwize, you might as well categorize different runs for different routes the players select! (ignoring 100% runs and such)

I think an elemental druid would take a WHOLE lot of skill, especially with molten boulder and using proper crowd control with fissure and stuff. I also think he'd be gimped in the later 3 acts, just due to no speed increase. But that's not really going to cost more than 10-15 minutes I think, so who knows?

I also think Thorns Pally would be viable, but I don't know how it would compare to a holy fire build. IIRC, HF synergies off Resist Fire, and you can pump that at level 1 (i think, not sure), which would give him a nice leveling aura (holy fire) and resist fire for the later 2 acts.

I didn't know that jimsfriend. I've tried swapping map files though, and they seem to have some sort of tie to teh character, and D2 starts barfing when you switch them. I'm sure theres some hex edit you could do, but I haven't put too much work into figuring it out.

I think one run per class is fine. If a fire sorc beats the lightning sorc, then take down the lightning sorc. The other player is taking the same starting position, and simply going a different route. Otherwize, you might as well categorize different runs for different routes the players select! (ignoring 100% runs and such)

I think an elemental druid would take a WHOLE lot of skill, especially with molten boulder and using proper crowd control with fissure and stuff. I also think he'd be gimped in the later 3 acts, just due to no speed increase. But that's not really going to cost more than 10-15 minutes I think, so who knows?

I also think Thorns Pally would be viable, but I don't know how it would compare to a holy fire build. IIRC, HF synergies off Resist Fire, and you can pump that at level 1 (i think, not sure), which would give him a nice leveling aura (holy fire) and resist fire for the later 2 acts.

Vasja Volin

2005-08-09 05:30:16 pm

If you wanted to search for a good map to use, you could use the -seed command. what you would do is open up your D2X shortcut, find the target line, and add -seed ######### after it (the line would look like this : "G:\Program Files\Diablo II\Diablo II.exe" -seed 2082478214). This forces the first map made by the game to be of that seed. This way, you use a high-level character (preferably sorc of 60+) and look through the maps on normal and nightmare difficulty (you must switch difficulties to obtain the new seed you place, because if the file you use already has its own map, it will not create a new one based on the seed. If you play multiplayer, however, this is not a problem.) I've been trying to do this for a while, but with very little luck - most of the maps seem to be random enough that although you may gain time in some places, other places you will lose out on. As a side note, however, if anyone wants to do mephisto runs at some point, the seed I wrote up there is great for running with a sorc - just go left 2 screens from the waypoint, and you will be at the durance.

If you wanted to search for a good map to use, you could use the -seed command. what you would do is open up your D2X shortcut, find the target line, and add -seed ######### after it (the line would look like this : "G:\Program Files\Diablo II\Diablo II.exe" -seed 2082478214). This forces the first map made by the game to be of that seed. This way, you use a high-level character (preferably sorc of 60+) and look through the maps on normal and nightmare difficulty (you must switch  difficulties to obtain the new seed you place, because if the file you use already has its own map, it will not create a new one based on the seed. If you play multiplayer, however, this is not a problem.) I've been trying to do this for a while, but with very little luck - most of the maps seem to be random enough that although you may gain time in some places, other places you will lose out on. As a side note, however, if anyone wants to do mephisto runs at some point, the seed I wrote up there is great for running with a sorc - just go left 2 screens from the waypoint, and you will be at the durance.

jimsfriend

2005-08-09 06:30:52 pm

Like A Fox

Siyko I'm sorry the maps wouldn't switch characters, I didn't think that would be a problem. I could always ask Blizzard tech support if it is supposed to happen that way as I have a running e-mail with <jamesk.support@blizzard.com>. If there is an easier way to find a good map, he would know (although it could be a dangerous subject as he might think I am trying to suggest the maphack).

Vasja Volin the maps probably do appear to be random, but with 10billion choices (assuming the seeds are 0000000000 to 9999999999) there is probably something that has the shortest possible route in all locations. Unfortunately for one person to explore every map (even with the map hack) would take several hundred years... or thousands if you are not lightning quick.

Also, anyone who knows more about computers than me (that would be all of you), is it possible there is a way to write your own seed for the map (as in: you draw the map yourself). If this violates the terms in the Blizzard license agreement then I don't suggest trying, but I'm sure someone out there could probably figure it out... it can't be that much harder than writing a map hack program. (I guess it could, I wouldn't know). If this could be done I don't know if radix would approve as it is incredibly similar to using the maphack which is a cheat, but what do I know.

Siyko I'm sorry the maps wouldn't switch characters, I didn't think that would be a problem.  I could always ask Blizzard tech support if it is supposed to happen that way as I have a running e-mail with <jamesk.support@blizzard.com>.  If there is an easier way to find a good map, he would know (although it could be a dangerous subject as he might think I am trying to suggest the maphack).

Vasja Volin the maps probably do appear to be random, but with 10billion choices (assuming the seeds are 0000000000 to 9999999999) there is probably something that has the shortest possible route in all locations.  Unfortunately for one person to explore every map (even with the map hack) would take several hundred years... or thousands if you are not lightning quick.

Also, anyone who knows more about computers than me (that would be all of you), is it possible there is a way to write your own seed for the map (as in: you draw the map yourself).  If this violates the terms in the Blizzard license agreement then I don't suggest trying, but I'm sure someone out there could probably figure it out... it can't be [i]that[/i] much harder than writing a map hack program.  (I guess it could, I wouldn't know).  If this could be done I don't know if radix would approve as it is incredibly similar to using the maphack which is a cheat, but what do I know.

Kaldron

2005-08-09 08:12:34 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

nearly all maps have always the same structure

i tried this waytheory today during my ladderrun, and i get in 90% the correct path first

so you dont lose that much time

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-08-10 12:08:43 am

2005-08-10 12:07:36 am

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Quote:

Siyko I'm sorry the maps wouldn't switch characters, I didn't think that would be a problem. I could always ask Blizzard tech support if it is supposed to happen that way.

Most probably it is. But even if it is not, asking the programmer to remove inconvenient features is hardly the way to do it. Wink

Quote:

Vasja Volin the maps probably do appear to be random, but with 10billion choices (assuming the seeds are 0000000000 to 9999999999) there is probably something that has the shortest possible route in all locations. Unfortunately for one person to explore every map (even with the map hack) would take several hundred years... or thousands if you are not lightning quick.

Assuming the seed is a 32bit Integer it's around 4 billion, but still to much.

Quote:

Also, anyone who knows more about computers than me (that would be all of you), is it possible there is a way to write your own seed for the map. If this violates the terms in the Blizzard license agreement then I don't suggest trying, but I'm sure someone out there could probably figure it out... it can't be that much harder than writing a map hack program.

That's the thing where it gets tricky. The maphack does not invent stuff (at least the orginal maphack, extra stuff doen't count here), as far as I understood it, the maphack only cheats the game into thinking you already uncovered all of the map. The actual revealing, drawing etc. is done by the game. All it does is finding the map where the game saves where you've been, and setting everything to true.

Now finding a seed to a map is harder. Although it's something different, the problem is very similar to finding a collision to a good hash. For each seed a map that is generated from it, like for each file a CRC32 hash exists. While computing the latter from the first is easy, the reverse is next to impossible. In CRC32 this feature is wanted, in Diablo it is an unwanted side effect of using the seed for a pseudo random number generator. Basically it results in a completely different bach of random numbers (which is wanted, even if only increasing the seed by one) and then in a completely different map.

While this was no answer that would get me any points in a cryptography test, the chances of an easy algorithm to revert map creation are very tiny at best.

Btw.: Legal Qustion - To what extent can a company tell you what you may do with the data they sold you? May they outrule the single player use of maphack? I see why this is not allowed in Closed BNet, but farily I don't give a damn about what they tell me to do with it in single player...

[quote]Siyko I'm sorry the maps wouldn't switch characters, I didn't think that would be a problem.  I could always ask Blizzard tech support if it is supposed to happen that way.[/quote]
Most probably it is. But even if it is not, asking the programmer to remove inconvenient features is hardly the way to do it. ;)

[quote]Vasja Volin the maps probably do appear to be random, but with 10billion choices (assuming the seeds are 0000000000 to 9999999999) there is probably something that has the shortest possible route in all locations.  Unfortunately for one person to explore every map (even with the map hack) would take several hundred years... or thousands if you are not lightning quick.[/quote]
Assuming the seed is a 32bit Integer it's around 4 billion, but still to much.

[quote]Also, anyone who knows more about computers than me (that would be all of you), is it possible there is a way to write your own seed for the map.  If this violates the terms in the Blizzard license agreement then I don't suggest trying, but I'm sure someone out there could probably figure it out... it can't be [i]that[/i] much harder than writing a map hack program.[/quote]
That's the thing where it gets tricky. The maphack does not invent stuff (at least the orginal maphack, extra stuff doen't count here), as far as I understood it, the maphack only cheats the game into thinking you already uncovered all of the map. The actual revealing, drawing etc. is done by the game. All it does is finding the map where the game saves where you've been, and setting everything to true.

Now finding a seed to a map is harder. Although it's something different, the problem is very similar to finding a collision to a good hash. For each seed  a map that is generated from it, like for each file a CRC32 hash exists. While computing the latter from the first is easy, the reverse is next to impossible. In CRC32 this feature is wanted, in Diablo it is an unwanted side effect of using the seed for a pseudo random number generator. Basically it results in a completely different bach of random numbers (which is wanted, even if only increasing the seed by one) and then in a completely different map.

While this was no answer that would get me any points in a cryptography test, the chances of an easy algorithm to revert map creation are very tiny at best.

Btw.: Legal Qustion - To what extent can a company tell you what you may do with the data they sold you? May they outrule the single player use of maphack? I see why this is not allowed in Closed BNet, but farily I don't give a damn about what they tell me to do with it in single player...

jimsfriend

2005-08-10 03:14:31 am

Like A Fox

Told you I don't know much about computers... my schools computer science course was java... the most pointless computer language ever created.

About the amount of seeds, four billion is a heck of a lot more than I want to look into. But creating the map, there is something people sell and trade on bnet called script (I guess it's the programming of the game?) and unless I misunderstand how it works, I think it is supposed to create items. Would altering the script to make it affect maps rather than items be difficult? (Yet again, I don't know much about computers)

Quote:

the problem is very similar to finding a collision to a good hash

This is where you lost me. And about not caring what Blizzard thinks about their license agreement in single player, I won't care much either until they give me the realm and ladder only rune words Angry

I just didn't want to offend anybody by suggesting something that would be considered illegal or cheating.

Siyko

Edit history:

Siyko: 2005-08-10 03:38:55 am

2005-08-10 03:38:01 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Java useless??? Oh cmon, once you get past the PUBLIC STATIC VOID MAIN STRING ARGS and its pointless neccessity, it's all good Tongue

and reverse-engineering the map would really be right next to impossible. When D2 creates the map, it uses that seed to spawn a bunch of conditions based off it. Not only would you need to obtain the code that decides this (read: illegal), but you would have to go through EVERY random condition, and find out which ones would save the most time, and try to find a number that would settle the most number of those conditions as possible.

For instance, lets simplify the crap out of it, and say
(if seed is divisible by 5, the road turns left right outside town)
(if seed*2 + 5 is divisible by 9, the Oasis WP is right near the maggot lair)

I don't know if this is even the kind of calculations they would do, but its the same basic idea, so you can see how hard it would be to reverse engineer it if theres a condition for each and every variation a map can have.

As for the legality of it, you're running the software on your computer. So as long as you don't log on to their servers with maphack, it's really none of their business. Even if you do go on bnet, the worst they can do is disable your cd-key for bnet use. Perhaps they could press some really lame legal action, but that's just not realistic, or in anyone's interest.

Java useless??? Oh cmon, once you get past the PUBLIC STATIC VOID MAIN STRING ARGS and its pointless neccessity, it's all good  :P

and reverse-engineering the map would really be right next to impossible. When D2 creates the map, it uses that seed to spawn a bunch of conditions based off it. Not only would you need to obtain the code that decides this (read: illegal), but you would have to go through EVERY random condition, and find out which ones would save the most time, and try to find a number that would settle the most number of those conditions as possible.

For instance, lets simplify the crap out of it, and say
(if seed is divisible by 5, the road turns left right outside town)
(if seed*2 + 5 is divisible by 9, the Oasis WP is right near the maggot lair)

I don't know if this is even the kind of calculations they would do, but its the same basic idea, so you can see how hard it would be to reverse engineer it if theres a condition for each and every variation a map can have.

As for the legality of it, you're running the software on your computer. So as long as you don't log on to their servers with maphack, it's really none of their business. Even if you do go on bnet, the worst they can do is disable your cd-key for bnet use. Perhaps they could press some really lame legal action, but that's just not realistic, or in anyone's interest.

jimsfriend

2005-08-10 04:19:30 am

Like A Fox

Quote:

the problem is very similar to finding a collision to a good hash

Lost Me

Quote:

For instance, lets simplify the crap out of it, and say
(if seed is divisible by 5, the road turns left right outside town)
(if seed*2 + 5 is divisible by 9, the Oasis WP is right near the maggot lair)

Now that I understand.

I suppose "reverse engineering" it would be kind of tricky because they probably have hundreds of lines of program for each equation for locations of various things (waypoints and dungeons and such). But since you guys know more about this stuff than me, do you know of any 3rd party programs that would allow me to open up the .map files to see what is inside? I tried to google it and the only site I came up with looked really suspicious, so I didn't download anything from it.

Now about java. I had a project in school that in order to complete I was going to have to alter the Integer class I believe in the toString() method. I got confused when it said (some sent value)>>>=3. Perhaps you can enlighten me of the meaning of this line of code? Needless to say, I was unable to complete the project.

[quote]the problem is very similar to finding a collision to a good hash[/quote]

Lost Me

[quote]For instance, lets simplify the crap out of it, and say 
(if seed is divisible by 5, the road turns left right outside town) 
(if seed*2 + 5 is divisible by 9, the Oasis WP is right near the maggot lair) [/quote]

Now that I understand.

I suppose "reverse engineering" it would be kind of tricky because they probably have hundreds of lines of program for each equation for locations of various things (waypoints and dungeons and such).  But since you guys know more about this stuff than me, do you know of any 3rd party programs that would allow me to open up the .map files to see what is inside?  I tried to google it and the only site I came up with looked really suspicious, so I didn't download anything from it.

Now about java.  I had a project in school that in order to complete I was going to have to alter the Integer class I believe in the toString() method.  I got confused when it said (some sent value)>>>=3.  Perhaps you can enlighten me of the meaning of this line of code?  Needless to say, I was unable to complete the project.

Lag.Com

Edit history:

Lag.Com: 2005-08-10 09:23:47 am

2005-08-10 09:22:42 am

sda loyalist

Quote:

I got confused when it said (some sent value)>>>=3.

That's a self-assignment operator, expanded it looks like this:
value = value >>> 3;

>>> is a bit shifting operator (don't know how much you know about those), basically this shifts bits 3 columns to the right, which is almost equivalent to dividing by 8. Because it says '>>>' instead of just '>>', I THINK this makes it cyclic, so any bits that get shuffled off the end reappear at the start, so
01101011₂ >> 3 = 00001101₂, but
01101011₂ >>> 3 = 01101101₂
(I could be wrong about the >>> / >> thing, but it seems logical to me)

As for the rest of the discussion, because of the way the maps are put together, it's extremely difficult to just open some of the data files and work it out. I suspect decompiling the exe / dll files might help, but it's not a project I'd like to start, and frankly I think D2 runs should be done without pre-exploration anyway. Smiley

Kaldron

2005-08-10 12:53:49 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

i think the way of pre-exploration made in the soloruns is okay...

but analyzing the mapfiles is imho nearly the same like maphack, there is no difference between this, both just analyze the files

i think, all runs should be done in way, that every normal owner of the game could replay (okay, random maps are never the same, but the kind of finding the way should be possible for every normal d2-player without any special code (3rd party programs... look in the licence agreement..)

Siyko

2005-08-10 01:39:42 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

kaldron, it's not like it'd be writing the maps by hand. It's just another way of exploring them. The maps are still generated by the game, but we are just given more control over what the game considers random.

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-08-10 03:56:27 pm

2005-08-10 03:45:54 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Hmmm, ok I thought my first attempt to explain it was probably too complicated, so here a simpler analogy:

As Siyko said, the map is created from a batch of random numbers. Getting a batch of numbers that create your certain map is possible. I'd say the difficulty of finding them/creating a program that finds them for you is equal to the effort mousepad put into the maphack.

But now you don't want to hear the batch of random numbers. You want one seed that tells the random number generator to generate your exact batch of ~100 random numbers that make up your map. And now think about this: We have about 4 billion seeds, but even if every one of the 100 random numbers is only a boolean (which they ain't of course, worsening everything) it gives us a whooping 2¹⁰⁰ possible batches of random numbers, which is close to 10³⁰. For comparision: 1 billion is a mere 10⁹. Common sense tells you that you can't generate so much more batches of bandom numbers from so "few" seeds. Now you have not only to find maps that suit you, but maps that can be seeded in the first place. That's the difficulty. And to remind you how exponential stuff works, the chance of finding one member of 10⁹ seedable maps in 10³⁰ total is roughly the chance of getting 3 lotto jackpots in a row.

I hope this was understandable.

And about the ladder only rune words, I think they gave them to you with patch 1.11, I've tested high rune cubing so far... 8 Zod runes in half an hour works Roll Eyes

Hmmm, ok I thought my first attempt to explain it was probably too complicated, so here a simpler analogy:

As Siyko said, the map is created from a batch of random numbers. Getting a batch of numbers that create your certain map is possible. I'd say the difficulty of finding them/creating a program that finds them for you is equal to the effort mousepad put into the maphack.

But now you don't want to hear the batch of random numbers. You want one seed that tells the random number generator to generate your exact batch of ~100 random numbers that make up your map. And now think about this: We have about 4 billion seeds, but even if every one of the 100 random numbers is only a boolean (which they ain't of course, worsening everything) it gives us a whooping 2[sup]100[/sup] possible batches of random numbers, which is close to 10[sup]30[/sup]. For comparision: 1 billion is a mere 10[sup]9[/sup]. Common sense tells you that you can't generate so much more batches of bandom numbers from so "few" seeds. Now you have not only to find maps that suit you, but maps that can be seeded in the first place. That's the difficulty. And to remind you how exponential stuff works, the chance of finding one member of 10[sup]9[/sup] seedable maps in 10[sup]30[/sup] total is roughly the chance of getting 3 lotto jackpots [i]in a row[/i].

I hope this was understandable.

And about the ladder only rune words, I think they gave them to you with patch 1.11, I've tested high rune cubing so far... 8 Zod runes in half an hour works ::) ;D

jimsfriend

2005-08-10 04:51:11 pm

Like A Fox

Quote:

the chance of finding one member of 10⁹ seedable maps in 10³⁰ total is roughly the chance of getting 3 lotto jackpots in a row.

Is that with or without a power ball Tongue

So I suppose maps will remain luck of the draw for the speed runners (although I would at least make sure I had a good arcane).

Lag.com thanks for the explanation... but I don't think my teacher would understand, much less me. But I did put a System.out.println(); in there to output the value of (value)>>>=3 and it gave me an integer value between 0 and 3 no matter what number I put in (value).

Quote:

The maps are still generated by the game, but we are just given more control over what the game considers random.

The way Siyko put it makes it sound a lot like what the tool-assisted emulator runs do (manipulate luck) and if that is the case I suppose that probably puts an end to this discussion.

Quote:

Codes: The use of hidden codes at the start of a game which are beneficial are not allowed

Rules in the SDA forum. I guess changing the randomness of the map generation is probably considered a code (although an extremely complex one) as it would require you to alter the programming of the game (or at least one of it's off shoot files) to give you advantage over other players.

Quote:

And about the ladder only rune words, I think they gave them to you with patch 1.11

I'll believe it when you put JahMalJahSurJahBer in a six socket sword and come up with Last Wish. I'm sure not going to try it as my few runes in single player are very precious to me. However I did accidentally stumble upon a very simple method of single player duping and could use hr cubing to create anything I want... that would just be cheating.

Is anyone going to be trying another speed run with a differenc character soon? I like watching the progress they post on these forums and would like to give some advice where possible. (I don't know if they use them but some of the low level rune words are pretty good). Good sources for help would also be
www.battle.net/diablo2exp
www.d2skills.com
If you don't already know about them.

[quote]the chance of finding one member of 10[sup]9[/sup] seedable maps in 10[sup]30[/sup] total is roughly the chance of getting 3 lotto jackpots in a row. 
[/quote]
Is that with or without a power ball  :P

So I suppose maps will remain luck of the draw for the speed runners (although I would at least make sure I had a good arcane).

Lag.com thanks for the explanation... but I don't think my teacher would understand, much less me.  But I did put a System.out.println(); in there to output the value of (value)>>>=3 and it gave me an integer value between 0 and 3 no matter what number I put in (value).

[quote]The maps are still generated by the game, but we are just given more control over what the game considers random. [/quote]
The way Siyko put it makes it sound a lot like what the tool-assisted emulator runs do (manipulate luck) and if that is the case I suppose that probably puts an end to this discussion.

[quote]Codes: The use of hidden codes at the start of a game which are beneficial are not allowed[/quote]
Rules in the SDA forum.  I guess changing the randomness of the map generation is probably considered a code (although an extremely complex one) as it would require you to alter the programming of the game (or at least one of it's off shoot files) to give you advantage over other players.

[quote]And about the ladder only rune words, I think they gave them to you with patch 1.11[/quote]
I'll believe it when you put JahMalJahSurJahBer in a six socket sword and come up with Last Wish.  I'm sure not going to try it as my few runes in single player are very precious to me.  However I did accidentally stumble upon a very simple method of single player duping and could use hr cubing to create anything I want... that would just be cheating.

Is anyone going to be trying another speed run with a differenc character soon?  I like watching the progress they post on these forums and would like to give some advice where possible.  (I don't know if they use them but some of the low level rune words are pretty good).  Good sources for help would also be 
www.battle.net/diablo2exp
www.d2skills.com
If you don't already know about them.

Pweisger

2005-08-10 11:26:35 pm

PwNzRd!

The other runs did not use a code to generate their maps, so I think it is pretty much a given that you can't use it.

Zurreco

2005-08-10 11:33:51 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

Why don't we just make it so that all submitted runs have to use a specific map seed? That way, future runs will be comparable.

Ekarderif

2005-08-11 01:24:56 am

Your almighty lordship

Quote:

However I did accidentally stumble upon a very simple method of single player duping and could use hr cubing to create anything I want... that would just be cheating.

Glitches are all in good name here ;). Well, most of them are anyways. I don't see a big reason to rule out duping (though it should be in a separate category).

jimsfriend

2005-08-11 03:09:31 am

Like A Fox

I define single player here as anything not involved in the Battle.net realms and therefore I include the LAN connection in my house (I guess this is a poor definition as the game calls it "other multiplayer"). The duping process I discovered requires more than one computer in order to work. I use the term "single player" rather loosely, basically the same way I use it with my dad because he knows even less about computers than I do. So I guess it would be better to say rather than "single player" duping I should call it "offline" duping as it does not involve an internet connection. I won't explain anymore on this forum as it would probably be considered cheating.

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-08-11 03:46:10 am

2005-08-11 03:45:45 am

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Quote:

However I did accidentally stumble upon a very simple method of single player duping and could use hr cubing to create anything I want... that would just be cheating.

How do you think did I get 8 Zod runes in half an hour? Tongue

I didn't test the rune words yet, but once I got a second PC here to "accidently" forget removing the read only protection of the save game of the rune dropping character I'll try it.

Anyway, all this stuff about cheating isn't for runs. Seeding is nice if you want people to have a competition, to even out the conditions for a contest maybe. For segmented runs I found any map equally good to run. The only thing, the one and only for which I would restart a run is when in act3 the flayer jungle is not accessable without going through great marsh. Everything else is slowed down by getting exp anyway.

Also the game seems to even out the effect of some stuff by itself. When marsh practiced for his run he noticed that exp shrines have fewer monster spawned around them. I found this remarkable...

[quote]However I did accidentally stumble upon a very simple method of single player duping and could use hr cubing to create anything I want... that would just be cheating.[/quote]
How do you think did I get 8 Zod runes in half an hour? :P

I didn't test the rune words yet, but once I got a second PC here to "accidently" forget removing the read only protection of the save game of the rune dropping character I'll try it.

Anyway, all this stuff about cheating isn't for runs. Seeding is nice if you want people to have a competition, to even out the conditions for a contest maybe. For segmented runs I found any map equally good to run. The only thing, the one and only for which I would restart a run is when in act3 the flayer jungle is not accessable without going through great marsh. Everything else is slowed down by getting exp anyway.

Also the game seems to even out the effect of some stuff by itself. When marsh practiced for his run he noticed that exp shrines have fewer monster spawned around them. I found this remarkable...

jimsfriend

Edit history:

jimsfriend: 2005-08-11 04:33:43 am

2005-08-11 04:32:56 am

Like A Fox

Quote:

exp shrines have fewer monster spawned around them

I wonder if it was this way in version 1.0? Maybe they changed it in a later patch, but if they did it was probably before 1.07 which I believe is when LoD came out.

Quote:

How do you think did I get 8 Zod runes in half an hour?

You may have 8 zod runes... but do you have 40x 7%smfc Grin

Or for a melee character 40 209spc (which is actually legit somehow... glitch) Grin

And really, if you are doing it the way I do it you should have filled up the Rogue Encampment in a half hour because the amount you have grows exponentially... at least until it fills you inventory and stash Tongue

(or did you start at "el"?)

But I lost all my high level characters when my brothers comp crashed (mainly the lvl 90 zon) and in 1.10 and 1.11 it is sooooooo hard to beat hell without help from other people with uber leet gear.

I suppose this should be in a new thread, but as I have no plans to do the run I won't start a new run to suggest that someone else does.
Anyway, I think a poison javazon might do pretty good. 4 points critical strike, 17points poison javalin. (kill radament for extra point). Does anybody know how the poison damage per second works (psn java at lvl 17 does 1750-1953 over 40 seconds so is the equation for how much damage is dealt per second linear like it is when a monster does poison damage to you or does it do less damage in the first 20 seconds and more in the last 20 to make you wait for the damage?) I hope you get what I am trying to ask.

Also, I know that many of you are familiar with the scrolling function of the map hack that lets you see 2 or 3 screens away from your character. I believe the area that you can scroll and still see something before you get to the black wall is the only spot where monsters are spawned. I was wondering (since poison damage takes place over time) does this mean that monsters "unspawn" when the leave that area so any damage that would otherwise be dealt to them will no longer make them die and give you experience?

And one last thing since I'm so incredibly off topic... what is the significance of the red flag on the folder next to this (I think thread is the right word) on the forum list?

[quote]exp shrines have fewer monster spawned around them[/quote]
I wonder if it was this way in version 1.0?  Maybe they changed it in a later patch, but if they did it was probably before 1.07 which I believe is when LoD came out.

[quote]How do you think did I get 8 Zod runes in half an hour?[/quote]
You may have 8 zod runes... but do you have 40x 7%smfc  ;D
Or for a melee character 40 209spc (which is actually legit somehow... glitch)  ;D
And really, if you are doing it the way I do it you should have filled up the Rogue Encampment in a half hour because the amount you have grows exponentially... at least until it fills you inventory and stash  :P    (or did you start at "el"?)

But I lost all my high level characters when my brothers comp crashed (mainly the lvl 90 zon) and in 1.10 and 1.11 it is sooooooo hard to beat hell without help from other people with uber leet gear.

I suppose this should be in a new thread, but as I have no plans to do the run I won't start a new run to suggest that someone else does.
Anyway, I think a poison javazon might do pretty good.  4 points critical strike, 17points poison javalin.  (kill radament for extra point).  Does anybody know how the poison damage per second works (psn java at lvl 17 does 1750-1953 over 40 seconds so is the equation for how much damage is dealt per second linear like it is when a monster does poison damage to you or does it do less damage in the first 20 seconds and more in the last 20 to make you wait for the damage?) I hope you get what I am trying to ask.

Also, I know that many of you are familiar with the scrolling function of the map hack that lets you see 2 or 3 screens away from your character.  I believe the area that you can scroll and still see something before you get to the black wall is the only spot where monsters are spawned.  I was wondering (since poison damage takes place over time) does this mean that monsters "unspawn" when the leave that area so any damage that would otherwise be dealt to them will no longer make them die and give you experience?

And one last thing since I'm so incredibly off topic... what is the significance of the red flag on the folder next to this (I think thread is the right word) on the forum list?

Gorash

2005-08-11 04:46:32 am

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Quote:

I wonder if it was this way in version 1.0? Maybe they changed it in a later patch, but if they did it was probably before 1.07 which I believe is when LoD came out.

Marsh played 1.10 at that time...

Quote:

Anyway, I think a poison javazon might do pretty good. 4 points critical strike, 17points poison javalin. (kill radament for extra point). Does anybody know how the poison damage per second works[...]?

Radament is a bad idea because it takes too long IMO.
And poison damage is linear, yes.

Quote:

Also, I know that many of you are familiar with the scrolling function of the map hack that lets you see 2 or 3 screens away from your character. [...] I was wondering does this mean that monsters "unspawn" when the leave that area?

I'm not familiar with that function. But yes poison sops working when you are not in the vicinity of the monster for a certain time. Unspawning does not happen, but the hp and status modifier get reset if no player is near the monster for 30 seconds give or take.

Quote:

What is the significance of the red flag on the folder next to this on the forum list?

Scrolling down to the explanation of symbols might enlighten you Smiley

[quote]
I wonder if it was this way in version 1.0?  Maybe they changed it in a later patch, but if they did it was probably before 1.07 which I believe is when LoD came out.[/quote]
Marsh played 1.10 at that time...

[quote]Anyway, I think a poison javazon might do pretty good.  4 points critical strike, 17points poison javalin.  (kill radament for extra point).  Does anybody know how the poison damage per second works[...]?[/quote]
Radament is a bad idea because it takes too long IMO.
And poison damage is linear, yes.

[quote]Also, I know that many of you are familiar with the scrolling function of the map hack that lets you see 2 or 3 screens away from your character. [...] I was wondering does this mean that monsters "unspawn" when the leave that area?[/quote]
I'm not familiar with that function. But yes poison sops working when you are not in the vicinity of the monster for a certain time. Unspawning does not happen, but the hp and status modifier get reset if no player is near the monster for 30 seconds give or take.

[quote]What is the significance of the red flag on the folder next to this on the forum list?[/quote]
Scrolling down to the explanation of symbols might enlighten you :)

jimsfriend

Edit history:

jimsfriend: 2005-08-11 05:17:03 am

2005-08-11 05:16:07 am

Like A Fox

What I meant about the exp shrine was if it always had less monsters around it. I know he played 1.10, was wondering if say version 1.07 still had normal number of monsters by the exp shrine. (Really I was just amazed that the people down at Blizzard had given it that much thought).

I'm sure this sounds dumb... but what does IMO mean?

Quote:

But yes poison sops working when you are not in the vicinity of the monster for a certain time

This answers my question.

I scrolled down and was enlightened Grin

Also I looked on www.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5-baalsminion.shtml (paste it in the address bar if you want to see) and noticed that the minions of destruction have 95% resistance to poison Cry

And the bosses have lost of poison resist too.

Phauxe

2005-08-11 07:24:23 am

I.n
M.y
O.pinion
Tongue

(There was I time I didn't know either :-/)