Anyone ever consider a 7th Saga speed run?

2010-08-14 09:05:57 pm

Why try beating the 2x Cocoon battles at all? When I level there, I just run from every battle that doesn't have an S. Brain in it.

PJ

2010-08-14 09:51:00 pm

Is PJ

I never try beating them. I always attempt to run, but rarely succeed in that level range. In fact, trying to beat them at all is pretty much suicide.

FionordeQuester

2010-08-14 10:06:59 pm

Hmm...something's not right here.

You seem to have a lot more trouble with these enemies than I usually do. Now, I usually reset my game until Lejes is at the highest level he can be, and has over 70 speed at Level 15 when I recruit him. And I keep resetting to get the maximum benefit out of seeds. Do you think that's what's causing the disparity?

PJ

2010-08-14 10:13:13 pm

Is PJ

70 speed at level 15. You only have access to 1 A.Seed at that point (assuming you get him before R.Pison like my route plans). Average stat growth (4 speed per level) would get you to like...64ish by level 15, unless I am not remembering his initial speed right. It's possible that the ~10 more speed you have is doing something. Then again, I don't know how much trouble you are having. The best way to test is for me to just see if I notice a difference when I do my test run next week. That will tell for sure. ^_^

Sorry I don't have a better answer.

FionordeQuester

2010-08-14 10:21:13 pm

I'm not having much trouble actually. Oh sure, I'll die sometimes, but I've only died twice from Patrof to Luze.

PJ

2010-08-14 10:24:20 pm

Is PJ

Wow. That's really impressive. I am interested in trying this then.

FionordeQuester

2010-08-14 10:31:46 pm

Trying what? Your route? Or resetting over and over?

PJ

2010-08-14 11:36:48 pm

Is PJ

No, trying my route. I can't reset in the real run, of course. ^_^ I really am curious to see if there is an impact from the Elnard boost or not.

FionordeQuester

Edit history:

FionordeQuester: 2010-08-15 08:25:02 am

2010-08-14 11:38:43 pm

If you're lucky, there should be. By the way, what if you don't get Lejes at the point you get to Level 14? Keep grinding and trying and retrying, giving up if Lux gets to 15 and still failing to get Lejes?

By the way, you said that you mentioned that you like fighting random encounters even after getting to Level 29, but, it seems fairly pointless to me. I suggest a balance. How about fighting only solo enemies that are easily destroyed by Vacuum, group enemies that are one shotted by Vaccum 2, and on some enemies, you buff up your Defense and spam the Sky Rune for more MP?

PJ

2010-08-15 02:57:31 pm

Is PJ

If I can't get Lejes by the time I am level 15, then I reset. I need to get him by then otherwise I waste too much time leveling and such. I'd really like him to join at level 14 while Lux is at level 13. That is really ideal, since I don't have to stay in the Eygus cave for too long to level.

Fighting random encounters may seem 'pointless', but in my experience it is usually faster than attempting to run away. My speed at this level is not enough to run away as easily as it is at level 43. In my SS glitchless run, I run away from every single random encounter in the rest of the game, once I reach 43 (unless I can't run). 29 is a little iffy though. Battles like solo Griffan or solo R.Demon in Bilthem are really easy and are basically just as fast to kill than to attempt a run. I'll still try to run away from battles that I can't win (Coccoon + B.Night + Wyrock is a classic example in Baran), or use Vac2 on battles with multiple enemies with low resistance, but in general I fight if there isn't much loss of time. At the very least, I'd likely gain another level by the time I reach Monmo, which might cut out a turn or two. Who knows.

If I can't get Lejes by the time I am level 15, then I reset.  I need to get him by then otherwise I waste too much time leveling and such.  I'd really like him to join at level 14 while Lux is at level 13.  That is really ideal, since I don't have to stay in the Eygus cave for too long to level.

Fighting random encounters may seem 'pointless', but in my experience it is usually faster than attempting to run away.  My speed at this level is not enough to run away as easily as it is at level 43.  In my SS glitchless run, I run away from every single random encounter in the rest of the game, once I reach 43 (unless I can't run).  29 is a little iffy though.  Battles like solo Griffan or solo R.Demon in Bilthem are really easy and are basically just as fast to kill than to attempt a run.  I'll still try to run away from battles that I can't win (Coccoon + B.Night + Wyrock is a classic example in Baran), or use Vac2 on battles with multiple enemies with low resistance, but in general I fight if there isn't much loss of time.  At the very least, I'd likely gain another level by the time I reach Monmo, which might cut out a turn or two.  Who knows.

FionordeQuester

Edit history:

FionordeQuester: 2010-08-15 04:52:34 pm

2010-08-15 04:03:10 pm

Well, when I was at Level 33, I ran from every random encounter, and I didn't find running to be tough at all until I got to the Past. Of course, you're doing this single segment, so I guess ANY risk is kind of unnacceptable to you, huh? I don't blame you.

In other news, I have now finally righted a great injustice by uploading one of the best music tracks this game has. Only problem is, even when I use the Youtube search bar, I can't get it up for some reason! What gives?

PJ

2010-08-15 06:42:35 pm

Is PJ

Haha, I agree that that is the best music in the game. I love that cutscene just because I get to listen to that track. ^_^ Good selection.

If you were able to escape from everything at level 33, then it might be ok. In my last 8 playthroughs, I was level 43 for the middle of the game so I was just thinking back awhile to when I was playing that at a reasonable level. I don't really fight because of the 'risk' of running; I fight just because it is pretty similar in terms of time, but much more fun. Obviously it depends which battle I get into, but if it's something I can kill reasonably fast or something that doesn't present a major threat to me, yet gives good experience, then I'll fight. If I don't like the enemies, or if I'm not confident, or if they give low experience (Coccoons!), etc, I'll run.

FionordeQuester

2010-08-15 07:11:40 pm

By the way, I have a question. You say that Level 43 is a good level for Lejes to fight Gorsia, but, what's a good level for everyone else? I remember in your stream that Kamil was at Level 51, yet was still getting pwned by Gorsia every which way and that.

PJ

2010-08-15 08:52:26 pm

Is PJ

Hahaha. Well, 43 is a good level to stop fighting S.Brains. That corresponds to a level of 47 (or 48, rarely) at Gorsia. I don't even remember why it's such a good pick. Maybe it let's me dodge some attacks sometimes? Or maybe it is just high enough magic stat to survive a magic hit. I honestly don't know. I beat Gorsia at 47 with Wilme, Esuna, Lejes, and Valsu solo (although Valsu can do it sooner because of Elixer spam). Kamil beat him at 51 eventually, just from sheer luck. Olvan and Lux were my first two solo playthroughs, so I wasn't concerned with speed, but I finally beat Gorsia at level like....60-something with Olvan and 54 (or something close to it) with Lux. Aka, high enough level to survive two magic attacks.

Basically, you need to be a high enough level to survive any of his magic attacks, have decent enough speed to dodge most of the time after Wind Rune and B.Agility (to not run out of potions), and do reasonable damage to him. That's my guess at least. I really just 'found it out' by noticing that I couldn't beat Gorsia once at level 44-45, yet could kill him in a few attempts at level 47 for some characters. Mostly just experience speaking there.

So to answer your question, 47 works for solo Lejes, Wilme, Esuna, and Valsu. Kamil and Olvan should never be used solo, but they need 52+ to stand a good chance. No estimate for solo Lux. He can likely kill under 50, but my bro and I had too much fun leveling with him because he could hit for over 1k, so we just leveled until he could survive two magic hits. Didn't test much before that point. Can be done at lower levels with a partner, too. Worth noting.

Hahaha.  Well, 43 is a good level to stop fighting S.Brains.  That corresponds to a level of 47 (or 48, rarely) at Gorsia.  I don't even remember why it's such a good pick.  Maybe it let's me dodge some attacks sometimes?  Or maybe it is just high enough magic stat to survive a magic hit.  I honestly don't know.  I beat Gorsia at 47 with Wilme, Esuna, Lejes, and Valsu solo (although Valsu can do it sooner because of Elixer spam).  Kamil beat him at 51 eventually, just from sheer luck.  Olvan and Lux were my first two solo playthroughs, so I wasn't concerned with speed, but I finally beat Gorsia at level like....60-something with Olvan and 54 (or something close to it) with Lux.  Aka, high enough level to survive two magic attacks.

Basically, you need to be a high enough level to survive any of his magic attacks, have decent enough speed to dodge most of the time after Wind Rune and B.Agility (to not run out of potions), and do reasonable damage to him.  That's my guess at least.  I really just 'found it out' by noticing that I couldn't beat Gorsia once at level 44-45, yet could kill him in a few attempts at level 47 for some characters.  Mostly just experience speaking there.

So to answer your question, 47 works for solo Lejes, Wilme, Esuna, and Valsu.  Kamil and Olvan should never be used solo, but they need 52+ to stand a good chance.  No estimate for solo Lux.  He can likely kill under 50, but my bro and I had too much fun leveling with him because he could hit for over 1k, so we just leveled until he could survive two magic hits.  Didn't test much before that point.  Can be done at lower levels with a partner, too.  Worth noting.

FionordeQuester

Edit history:

FionordeQuester: 2010-08-15 08:58:39 pm

2010-08-15 08:57:32 pm

I see. So, the absolute minimum is basically just being able to survive a magic attack. I think I'll have to ask Kirkq the formula for that one. I've heard the Game Mechanics isn't quite correct on a few things.

FionordeQuester

2010-08-15 11:43:27 pm

Oh, and I've retested your route. It turns out, it's at Gariso's castle that you have issues with running, not after him.

PJ

2010-08-15 11:52:35 pm

Is PJ

Oh yea, those enemeis are fierce. Chimeres and V.Nights, right? I've always had issues with them. Really tough enemies. Fortunately, I can usually run through there without a battle until the end room. I was more concerned with M.Pison's cave. There are a lot of tough battles there usually.

FionordeQuester

2010-08-16 12:00:21 am

Actually, I found M. Pison's cave to be pretty easy. I almost never fail to run from monsters there.

PJ

2010-08-16 12:04:20 am

Is PJ

That is very encouraging news. It is mostly B.Nights, Swords, and Flames there, which aren't overly fast enemies, but if I fail to run away I might be in for a world of pain. Sounds good, though.

This week I am going to be working on Battletoads a lot, but I think I will stream a practice run of Saga maybe mid-week. At the very latest, the weekend. I'll of course update when I know for sure when I'll be streaming.

Winkwonle

2010-08-16 06:19:14 am

Thanks for streaming!

I was wondering: is there a way for you to evaluate how much time is gained from fighting random encounters once you're finished hunting S.Brains, in comparison to systematically running away? I was faced with a similar question when playing FF1, where some encounters seemed really quick and easy, but not as much as were those used for explicit leveling-up purposes. (I ended up concluding that I should do all my leveling in a block and always run away thereafter.) If the answer is that it's better to fight some random encounters because they're much faster to kill than S.Brains and they still give good exp, then are you sure that S.Brains are the best way to go in the first place?

Also while I'm here I wanted to ask: what do you think of fighting regular Brains for a while until you have 7-8 Recovery potions? Would that help prevent unlucky deaths later on?

I've been following the current discussion silently, since I generally don't know the game enough to contribute. On that subject, do you reckon there are enough experts of this game on SDA so as to provide objective and knowledgeable verifiers? (Even on GameFAQs, 7th Saga doesn't seem terribly popular...) I do believe that this run has its place here, obviously, but I'm a little worried because I don't see a lot of different opinions and ideas clashing on this forum. I don't know, maybe it's just because the game doesn't offer many valid choices, but still I'd be happy to see other mute forum readers confirm that they believe in your game plan.

Thanks for streaming!

I was wondering: is there a way for you to evaluate how much time is gained from fighting random encounters once you're finished hunting S.Brains, in comparison to systematically running away? I was faced with a similar question when playing FF1, where some encounters seemed really quick and easy, but not as much as were those used for explicit leveling-up purposes. (I ended up concluding that I should do all my leveling in a block and always run away thereafter.) If the answer is that it's better to fight some random encounters because they're much faster to kill than S.Brains and they still give good exp, then are you sure that S.Brains are the best way to go in the first place?

Also while I'm here I wanted to ask: what do you think of fighting regular Brains for a while until you have 7-8 Recovery potions? Would that help prevent unlucky deaths later on?

I've been following the current discussion silently, since I generally don't know the game enough to contribute. On that subject, do you reckon there are enough experts of this game on SDA so as to provide objective and knowledgeable verifiers? (Even on GameFAQs, 7th Saga doesn't seem terribly popular...) I do believe that this run has its place here, obviously, but I'm a little worried because I don't see a lot of different opinions and ideas clashing on this forum. I don't know, maybe it's just because the game doesn't offer many valid choices, but still I'd be happy to see other mute forum readers confirm that they believe in your game plan.

FionordeQuester

Edit history:

FionordeQuester: 2010-08-17 12:05:36 pm

FionordeQuester: 2010-08-17 12:01:26 pm

FionordeQuester: 2010-08-17 11:58:34 am

2010-08-17 11:57:56 am

Not popular on Gamefaqs? Seemed fairly popular to me, when I made my thread about how I was playing it for the first time. Anyways, I think I've played the game enough times even before this whole thing started to be a verifier. Then, I know of a guy called BCSBuster on Youtube who recorded an LP on Youtube specifically to show you how you can beat this game solo. Then we have ShinerCCC here, who once tried a quote "pathetic attempt at a speed run" at this game, but hit a wall somewhere in Dowaine or Pandam. That's already three guys, which I believe is the minimum amount of verifiers needed. The only trick to me is convincing BCSBuster to sign an account here and verify the run. And if that doesn't work, we have Kirkq, who made the TAS of this game, and Nitrodon, who helped Kirkq make the TAS by providing him indepth explanations all about how the mechanics of this game worked (he even claimed that the Gamne Mechanics Faq on GameFaqs was incorrect on some points).

PJ has been exchanging emails with Kirkq, so, I think that's something like three guys whom we all know for sure is qualified, and two others that are also likely.

Not popular on Gamefaqs? Seemed fairly popular to me, when I made my thread about how I was playing it for the first time. Anyways, I think I've played the game enough times even before this whole thing started to be a verifier. Then, I know of a guy called BCSBuster on Youtube who recorded an LP on Youtube specifically to show you how you can beat this game solo. Then we have ShinerCCC here, who once tried a quote "pathetic attempt at a speed run" at this game, but hit a wall somewhere in Dowaine or Pandam. That's already three guys, which I believe is the minimum amount of verifiers needed. The only trick to me is convincing BCSBuster to sign an account here and verify the run. And if that doesn't work, we have Kirkq, who made the TAS of this game, and Nitrodon, who helped Kirkq make the TAS by providing him indepth explanations all about how the mechanics of this game worked (he even claimed that the Gamne Mechanics Faq on GameFaqs was incorrect on some points).

PJ has been exchanging emails with Kirkq, so, I think that's something like three guys whom we all know for sure is qualified, and two others that are also likely.

PJ

Edit history:

PJ: 2010-08-17 01:47:23 pm

2010-08-17 01:44:09 pm

Is PJ

Thanks for your input, Winkwonle! Btw, I'm really looking forward to watching your FF1 run. I enjoyed reading about the progress, even if I didn't post there. Wink

As for the escaping random encounters...I honestly don't have a "set plan". I keep just trying to describe what generally happens at that stage, but it doesn't really work as well as just playing it, IMO. The leveling against S.Brains is definitely the best way to go, from what I've seen. I level there to the lowest level at which I am comfortable with beating the bosses. When I get in a battle, I kill the enemies if it doesn't take much more time than running just because the exp will add up to an extra level eventually, which means a better chance at beating the bosses/running from enemies. This is just single-segment mindset coming back to play I think. In a segmented run, I'd obviously not even get into a random encounter, or run from one that I do fight. In a SS run though, it never hurts to have some extra security. To be perfectly honest, the time difference between fighting and running vs the easy battles is probably offset by just a single unintentional death, which is super common in a SS run.

As for the recovery potions, you are definitely right about them being important later on normally, but not in this run. When I boost Lux in the past, there is no chance of him needing more than 9 Potn 3's for the entire rest of the game, basically. In a normal run, I try to get as many recoveries as I can (including the two hidden recoveries in Padal and the first town in the past...Pharano maybe?), since the final battle is an absolute monster. That isn't really necessary in the glitched run though, fortunately. I'll still get the hidden recoveries, but I won't worry if I don't get many extra recoveries as drops.

I was initially concerned about verification of this run, but now I don't think it is an issue. FionordeQuester has done a lot of testing of this game recently, and might be a qualified verifier. Nitrodon and kirkq are obviously very qualified to verify if they have time and interest. My brother would be a decent one too if he's interested, because he has beaten the game just as many times as I have; he and I would basically SS an entire playthrough, just taking turns playing certain sections of the game. So he's definitely very competent. Ideally, the verifiers would have finished the game a few times so they know about the trouble spots and aren't too critical of deaths during some of those. It'll be ok, though. It seems like there are plenty of Saga fans out there to verify this. Haha.

Edit: To add to the verification thing: I plan to write a vast amounts of comments to go with my submission, so pretty much anybody will know where I went wrong or could improve. Even if someone isn't truly familiar with the game, the comments should be detailed enough to help them along. Haha.

Thanks for your input, Winkwonle!  Btw, I'm really looking forward to watching your FF1 run.  I enjoyed reading about the progress, even if I didn't post there.  ;)

As for the escaping random encounters...I honestly don't have a "set plan".  I keep just trying to describe what generally happens at that stage, but it doesn't really work as well as just playing it, IMO.  The leveling against S.Brains is definitely the best way to go, from what I've seen.  I level there to the lowest level at which I am comfortable with beating the bosses.  When I get in a battle, I kill the enemies if it doesn't take much more time than running just because the exp will add up to an extra level eventually, which means a better chance at beating the bosses/running from enemies.  This is just single-segment mindset coming back to play I think.  In a segmented run, I'd obviously not even get into a random encounter, or run from one that I do fight.  In a SS run though, it never hurts to have some extra security.  To be perfectly honest, the time difference between fighting and running vs the easy battles is probably offset by just a single unintentional death, which is super common in a SS run.

As for the recovery potions, you are definitely right about them being important later on normally, but not in this run.  When I boost Lux in the past, there is no chance of him needing more than 9 Potn 3's for the entire rest of the game, basically.  In a normal run, I try to get as many recoveries as I can (including the two hidden recoveries in Padal and the first town in the past...Pharano maybe?), since the final battle is an absolute monster.  That isn't really necessary in the glitched run though, fortunately.  I'll still get the hidden recoveries, but I won't worry if I don't get many extra recoveries as drops.

I was initially concerned about verification of this run, but now I don't think it is an issue.  FionordeQuester has done a lot of testing of this game recently, and might be a qualified verifier.  Nitrodon and kirkq are obviously very qualified to verify if they have time and interest.  My brother would be a decent one too if he's interested, because he has beaten the game just as many times as I have; he and I would basically SS an entire playthrough, just taking turns playing certain sections of the game.  So he's definitely very competent.  Ideally, the verifiers would have finished the game a few times so they know about the trouble spots and aren't too critical of deaths during some of those.  It'll be ok, though.  It seems like there are plenty of Saga fans out there to verify this.  Haha.

Edit:  To add to the verification thing: I plan to write a vast amounts of comments to go with my submission, so pretty much anybody will know where I went wrong or could improve.  Even if someone isn't truly familiar with the game, the comments should be detailed enough to help them along.  Haha.

Winkwonle

2010-08-18 05:53:17 am

Yeah, I'm eager to see it out too. It may still take over a month though.

If you say that fighting is faster, I believe you. I was just wondering. Also it's interesting to hear about the out-proportioned influence of Lux's glitch-boost. If I understand correctly, all the leveling serves only in the present, because the entire past is done relying on Lux, right? (provided you can avoid dying in regular battles before Melenam, that is)

Hah, I can picture your brother and you playing during countless afternoons some fifteen years ago! My older brother and I used to play the same games when I was younger, but I would normally wait for him to complete it once, and then I would beat it myself five times or so. To this day, I'm still stuck playing those old games again and again (much less frequently though), while he doesn't care anymore (plays newer games). It's nice that you have someone close who can appreciate the subtleties of your runs.

Final thing: good idea writing extensive comments. It's also useful for the casual viewers (after the run is published), not just the verifiers. I'm glad to hear from both of you that verification won't be a problem at all. Good luck, even though you don't seem to need so much. Good patience, I should say. Roll Eyes

Yeah, I'm eager to see it out too. It may still take over a month though.

If you say that fighting is faster, I believe you. I was just wondering. Also it's interesting to hear about the out-proportioned influence of Lux's glitch-boost. If I understand correctly, all the leveling serves only in the present, because the entire past is done relying on Lux, right? (provided you can avoid dying in regular battles before Melenam, that is)

Hah, I can picture your brother and you playing during countless afternoons some fifteen years ago! My older brother and I used to play the same games when I was younger, but I would normally wait for him to complete it once, and then I would beat it myself five times or so. To this day, I'm still stuck playing those old games again and again (much less frequently though), while he doesn't care anymore (plays newer games). It's nice that you have someone close who can appreciate the subtleties of your runs.

Final thing: good idea writing extensive comments. It's also useful for the casual viewers (after the run is published), not just the verifiers. I'm glad to hear from both of you that verification won't be a problem at all. Good luck, even though you don't seem to need so much. Good patience, I should say. ::)

BCSBuster

2010-08-18 10:28:36 pm

I'm happy to do a run - I did an LP of this game on YouTube. Look under the BCSBuster channel. I would suggest a few things if this run were to work:

- Don't take a partner. It means less leveling up that you have to do. Plus, you really only have to level up in one area, and that's at the beginning of the game. That being said:
- Wilme would be the way to go as far as choosing a character. His very high speed allows you to barely take any damage, make you more successful in running from battles, and therefore survive longer and not have to do as much leveling. Plus, you don't have to buy any weapons, meaning that you can spend all of your cash on healing items. Valsu might work too, since he can cast several healing spells on himself.

As far as segments go, I like PJ's 4 segments; it seems like a good balance between parts of the game.

Anyways, just my 2 cents. Let me know what you all think!

BCSBuster

2010-08-18 10:32:14 pm

PS - does anyone have Skype? Add me at dericho06 and we can talk some more.