Anyone ever consider a 7th Saga speed run?

2010-03-12 08:26:35 am

I'd try it myself, but I don't have it on a console, only on emulator. If I somehow managed to have a run that beat 7 hours (the limit for speed runs right?), would somebody else please follow the route? I want there to be a 7th Saga run on this sight.

Thread title:

ZenicReverie

2010-03-12 09:52:10 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Maybe someone will tackle it after the TAS is done. The guy who's practicing for the ActRaiser 2 run did a single segment submitted to TG that was 11 hours, so it'll definitely be shorter than that. I think most people wrote the game off as being too long and no one really made an attempt at it for that reason. I think the TAS is aiming for 2 hours, so a time of about 4 hours seems possible for a segmented run, and possibly about 8 or 9 for a SS.

This thread should be merged with http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php?topic=2209.0 though because this has been discussed before.

PJ

2010-03-12 02:16:56 pm

Is PJ

I was actually just discussing this with somebody else. Strange. Perhaps you are him. ^_^

I am the one who did the SS run for TG. I ran it in 11.5 hours. I made one mistake which cost 1 hour, and had some pretty bad unluck for the Sky Rune battle which cost another 30 minutes, but the rest of the run is as lucky as possible (Gorsia took 6 minutes to kill, the second last dungeon was run without a battle, etc). I claim 10.5 hours is the fastest single segment time possible.

Due to the nature of the segmenting in this game, I say that 4 hours is 100% impossible. In fact, even if you could save before and after every battle, you can still not get 4 hours on console. That's why the TAS is an absolute joke. Ignore that entire run if you plan to do a speed run of this game. The best time you will ever see segmented is around 8 hours. I guarantee that. I beat this game 9 times, once with each character solo, twice with a certain character (for the WR run), and one time with a partner. The fastest time I have ever gotten is 9:48. Granted I didn't reset when I died in battle except for apprentice battles.

I don't even know how you would do a segmented run, since there are so many places where things go wrong. If I HAD to segment this game, I'd do it in 4 segments:

1. Beginning of the game to Patrof.
2. Patrof to immediately before Sky Rune battle.
3. Sky Rune to end game.
4. Final dungeon and Gorsia.

Maybe split segment 4 into two segments for each of the final dungeon and the Gorsia battle. Still, any more segmenting is pretty pointless. You will never be able to manipulate the luck of each battle. I have said this to a lot of different people a lot of different times. 7th Saga is not a speed run that belongs here because nobody will watch it. It is my favorite RPG and by far my best RPG, but it shouldn't go here. Even an optimized run is around 8 hours (at best).

If there is that much interest for this game, I will no-death single segment Elnard (the SFC version of this game) in 5.5 hours. I have gotten 5:58 on it with a lot of wasted time, so I am positive I can beat it in 5:30 or less single segment. In fact, I was able to get through the entire present in that game in 2:25. With better leveling planning I might be able to break 5 hours. This is the best option for a 7th Saga run, though. It is the same exact game except with higher stat growth, so the excessive leveling (around 6 hours) of Saga can be cut out entirely, leaving just the bare bones of the game behind. It is actually a really entertaining run.

Edit: Forgot to add that I am actually going to be streaming the end of my latest playthrough of Saga relatively soon. I just finished leveling Kamil yesterday so I am ready to finish the present and run the entire past. If you want an idea of how difficult a run of this game will actually be, you should check it out. I'll be doing it next weekend at a time TBD.

I was actually just discussing this with somebody else.  Strange.  Perhaps you are him.  ^_^

I am the one who did the SS run for TG.  I ran it in 11.5 hours.  I made one mistake which cost 1 hour, and had some pretty bad unluck for the Sky Rune battle which cost another 30 minutes, but the rest of the run is as lucky as possible (Gorsia took 6 minutes to kill, the second last dungeon was run without a battle, etc).  I claim 10.5 hours is the fastest single segment time possible.

Due to the nature of the segmenting in this game, I say that 4 hours is 100% impossible.  In fact, even if you could save before and after every battle, you can still not get 4 hours on console.  That's why the TAS is an absolute joke.  Ignore that entire run if you plan to do a speed run of this game.  The best time you will ever see segmented is around 8 hours.  I guarantee that.  I beat this game 9 times, once with each character solo, twice with a certain character (for the WR run), and one time with a partner.  The fastest time I have ever gotten is 9:48.  Granted I didn't reset when I died in battle except for apprentice battles.

I don't even know how you would do a segmented run, since there are so many places where things go wrong.  If I HAD to segment this game, I'd do it in 4 segments:

1.  Beginning of the game to Patrof.
2.  Patrof to immediately before Sky Rune battle.
3.  Sky Rune to end game.
4.  Final dungeon and Gorsia.

Maybe split segment 4 into two segments for each of the final dungeon and the Gorsia battle.  Still, any more segmenting is pretty pointless.  You will never be able to manipulate the luck of each battle.  I have said this to a lot of different people a lot of different times.  7th Saga is not a speed run that belongs here because nobody will watch it.  It is my favorite RPG and by far my best RPG, but it shouldn't go here.  Even an optimized run is around 8 hours (at best).

If there is that much interest for this game, I will no-death single segment Elnard (the SFC version of this game) in 5.5 hours.  I have gotten 5:58 on it with a lot of wasted time, so I am positive I can beat it in 5:30 or less single segment.  In fact, I was able to get through the entire present in that game in 2:25.  With better leveling planning I might be able to break 5 hours.  This is the best option for a 7th Saga run, though.  It is the same exact game except with higher stat growth, so the excessive leveling (around 6 hours) of Saga can be cut out entirely, leaving just the bare bones of the game behind.  It is actually a really entertaining run.

Edit:  Forgot to add that I am actually going to be streaming the end of my latest playthrough of Saga relatively soon.  I just finished leveling Kamil yesterday so I am ready to finish the present and run the entire past.  If you want an idea of how difficult a run of this game will actually be, you should check it out.  I'll be doing it next weekend at a time TBD.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-12 02:25:26 pm

So your saying the RNG in 7th Saga is set in stone? If you happen to be SuperNES from Youtube by the way, then yes, I was just talking to you as ArcsaurdeQuester. Yo.

PJ

2010-03-12 02:41:04 pm

Is PJ

Yup, that's me. ^_^

No, the RNG isn't set in stone. Like anything on the SNES, you can manipulate the RNG with menu navigation and delays and whatnot if you have perfect reflexes and frame-precise input. However, as we are humans and not robots, we can't do that. The thing that makes Saga difficult though is that the enemies don't need to do specific actions to kill you. They can kill you with pretty much anything at all. So it isn't a matter of manipulating an enemy to not use a certain attack on you, or to use a less threatening attack. A run of this game involves power leveling to the point where you can dodge attacks nearly every time, otherwise you are dead. I streamed the middle of this game awhile ago and made a few clips of battles (some random ecounters, one boss battle) that are 100% unwinnable at the given level. Might be worth watching those:

http://www.justin.tv/clip/ff1c8769cd51a932
http://www.justin.tv/clip/d9c45ed70ec6af82
http://www.justin.tv/clip/9c11294a681e658f
http://www.justin.tv/clip/b3912ba5c4fb2eac
http://www.justin.tv/clip/3b5a840bd50f17db
http://www.justin.tv/clip/181e22a6a5236d2a

And of course, what happens if you have to fight Lux for the Sky Rune:

Now, these are all using Kamil, who is the worst character to choose for a speed run. However, all of the other characters still face the same difficulties in those battles (except Lux, who can't fight himself for the Sky Rune).

Yup, that's me.  ^_^

No, the RNG isn't set in stone.  Like anything on the SNES, you can manipulate the RNG with menu navigation and delays and whatnot if you have perfect reflexes and frame-precise input.  However, as we are humans and not robots, we can't do that.  The thing that makes Saga difficult though is that the enemies don't need to do specific actions to kill you.  They can kill you with pretty much anything at all.  So it isn't a matter of manipulating an enemy to not use a certain attack on you, or to use a less threatening attack.  A run of this game involves power leveling to the point where you can dodge attacks nearly every time, otherwise you are dead.  I streamed the middle of this game awhile ago and made a few clips of battles (some random ecounters, one boss battle) that are 100% unwinnable at the given level.  Might be worth watching those:

http://www.justin.tv/clip/ff1c8769cd51a932
http://www.justin.tv/clip/d9c45ed70ec6af82
http://www.justin.tv/clip/9c11294a681e658f
http://www.justin.tv/clip/b3912ba5c4fb2eac
http://www.justin.tv/clip/3b5a840bd50f17db
http://www.justin.tv/clip/181e22a6a5236d2a

And of course, what happens if you have to fight Lux for the Sky Rune:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smDNwbit4H8

Now, these are all using Kamil, who is the worst character to choose for a speed run.  However, all of the other characters still face the same difficulties in those battles (except Lux, who can't fight himself for the Sky Rune).

FionordeQuester

2010-03-12 03:01:14 pm

What about Hard Resetting? Also, I've watched three so far, and that Sage battle could've been easily won with better tactics.

PJ

2010-03-12 03:09:15 pm

Is PJ

Hahahahaha. Watch the one battle I tried to win. If they want to kill you, they will. There are no "better tactics" than using B Power on the first turn.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-12 03:12:32 pm

No, I'm talking about the one where you fought only one, tried and failed to run away twice, got down to less than half the health, then proceeded to heal yourself WHEN YOU COULD'VE EASILY KILLED IT RIGHT THEN AND THERE, screwed up that chance, and got clobbered as a result.

I agree with you completely on every fight involving more than one Sage, don't get me wrong.

PJ

2010-03-12 03:31:26 pm

Is PJ

You have played this game before right? If so, you know the probability of hitting a Sage with level 20 Kamil. The strategy I used there had the highest probability of success, compared to swinging, missing, and getting OHKOd by any attack he has. You can't play this game as risky as possible because you will never get past the first cave. You play this game based on probability. At level 20, the chances of actually hitting a Sage with a character with a speed as low as Kamil, Lux, or Olvan is really laughable.

I also find it interesting that you assume that even if I did hit the Sage, he would be "easily killed". Since you are an expert at this game, you know all about the huge range of damage you can deal with attacks. Therefore, I don't need to tell you that the 79 damage I dealt to him was a really low roll for a defend attack from the Kamil in this video and that I would need a really, really high roll on a normal attack to kill him, ASSUMING I can even hit him.

So this was my plan for the battle, which is the correct plan: try to escape until Sage does something threatening. Undo his threatening action (heal or Star Rune, depending on what he did). Either try to escape or defend. If he uses MP Catcher again, attack. Hope for a really high roll for either a OHKO or an easy finish. If the roll is low, you are dead. Try to create another opportunity for a defend-attack before he heals or kills you. If the roll is high, attack on the next turn regardless of his action and hope to hit him.

You have played this game before right?  If so, you know the probability of hitting a Sage with level 20 Kamil.  The strategy I used there had the highest probability of success, compared to swinging, missing, and getting OHKOd by any attack he has.  You can't play this game as risky as possible because you will never get past the first cave.  You play this game based on probability.  At level 20, the chances of actually hitting a Sage with a character with a speed as low as Kamil, Lux, or Olvan is really laughable.

I also find it interesting that you assume that even if I did hit the Sage, he would be "easily killed".  Since you are an expert at this game, you know all about the huge range of damage you can deal with attacks.  Therefore, I don't need to tell you that the 79 damage I dealt to him was a really low roll for a defend attack from the Kamil in this video and that I would need a really, really high roll on a normal attack to kill him, ASSUMING I can even hit him.

So this was my plan for the battle, which is the correct plan:  try to escape until Sage does something threatening.  Undo his threatening action (heal or Star Rune, depending on what he did).  Either try to escape or defend.  If he uses MP Catcher again, attack.  Hope for a really high roll for either a OHKO or an easy finish.  If the roll is low, you are dead.  Try to create another opportunity for a defend-attack before he heals or kills you.  If the roll is high, attack on the next turn regardless of his action and hope to hit him.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-12 03:57:25 pm

You have played this game before right? If so, you know the probability of hitting a Sage with level 20 Kamil. The strategy I used there had the highest probability of success, compared to swinging, missing, and getting OHKOd by any attack he has. You can't play this game as risky as possible because you will never get past the first cave. You play this game based on probability. At level 20, the chances of actually hitting a Sage with a character with a speed as low as Kamil, Lux, or Olvan is really laughable.

The chances are still better than trying to run away in my experience. And to be honest, I gave up on Kamil halfway through that cave. I still to this day can't believe how much better Wilme performed.

I also find it interesting that you assume that even if I did hit the Sage, he would be "easily killed". Since you are an expert at this game, you know all about the huge range of damage you can deal with attacks. Therefore, I don't need to tell you that the 79 damage I dealt to him was a really low roll for a defend attack from the Kamil in this video and that I would need a really, really high roll on a normal attack to kill him, ASSUMING I can even hit him.

Hm...huh, I missed that Defend command. I assumed that was a regular attack, sorry. And you don't have to be so sarcastic about it >_<....

So this was my plan for the battle, which is the correct plan: try to escape until Sage does something threatening. Undo his threatening action (heal or Star Rune, depending on what he did). Either try to escape or defend. If he uses MP Catcher again, attack. Hope for a really high roll for either a OHKO or an easy finish. If the roll is low, you are dead. Try to create another opportunity for a defend-attack before he heals or kills you. If the roll is high, attack on the next turn regardless of his action and hope to hit him.

I haven't played with Kamil for a while, so I'm curious. What exactly are the odds of escaping? What formula is used? It seems that I might have been mistaken, so I'm gonna try this run out myself before I say anymore criticism of your actions. Also, since I'm gonna be trying this out myself, how did you develop your strategies?

[i]You have played this game before right?  If so, you know the probability of hitting a Sage with level 20 Kamil.  The strategy I used there had the highest probability of success, compared to swinging, missing, and getting OHKOd by any attack he has.  You can't play this game as risky as possible because you will never get past the first cave.  You play this game based on probability.  At level 20, the chances of actually hitting a Sage with a character with a speed as low as Kamil, Lux, or Olvan is really laughable.[/i]

The chances are still better than trying to run away in my experience.  And to be honest, I gave up on Kamil halfway through that cave.  I still to this day can't believe how much better Wilme performed.

[i]I also find it interesting that you assume that even if I did hit the Sage, he would be "easily killed".  Since you are an expert at this game, you know all about the huge range of damage you can deal with attacks.  Therefore, I don't need to tell you that the 79 damage I dealt to him was a really low roll for a defend attack from the Kamil in this video and that I would need a really, really high roll on a normal attack to kill him, ASSUMING I can even hit him.[/i]

Hm...huh, I missed that Defend command.  I assumed that was a regular attack, sorry.  And you don't have to be so sarcastic about it >_<....

[i]So this was my plan for the battle, which is the correct plan:  try to escape until Sage does something threatening.  Undo his threatening action (heal or Star Rune, depending on what he did).  Either try to escape or defend.  If he uses MP Catcher again, attack.  Hope for a really high roll for either a OHKO or an easy finish.  If the roll is low, you are dead.  Try to create another opportunity for a defend-attack before he heals or kills you.  If the roll is high, attack on the next turn regardless of his action and hope to hit him.[/i]

I haven't played with Kamil for a while, so I'm curious.  What exactly are the odds of escaping?  What formula is used?  It seems that I might have been mistaken, so I'm gonna try this run out myself before I say anymore criticism of your actions.  Also, since I'm gonna be trying this out myself, how did you develop your strategies?

PJ

2010-03-12 04:25:57 pm

Is PJ

Haha, sorry. Didn't mean to come across so sarcastic. Looking back, that was pretty rude. Undecided

The odds of escaping are really, really low with the low speed trio (Lux, Kamil, Olvan), but it is still higher than the odds the actually killing a Sage. Low speed characters are vastly disadvantaged in battle because they can't dodge attacks and create opportunities. It would be better to know the formulas, which I unfortunately do not, but I am playing off of 100+ hours of experience with this game for my strategies. There are some enemies that are just too strong to attempt to kill at certain levels (Coccoons, Sages, and Mutants are good examples). All of my route planning just came from trial and error, too. I beat the game with every character, so I know which ones were easiest and which ones had really difficult routes. Same with the level guidelines I sent you earlier; it can certainly be done at lower levels than what I had said to you, but reaching those levels and proceeding generally pays off in the end. It takes more time to level, but then the next section of the game is much easier.

As I said before, I'll be streaming a HUGE chunk of the game next weekend. I highly recommend tuning in to catch some of my strategies. It covers the present from Bilthem to the end of the game. I'll be using my mic and dictating my strategies for every battle, level, treasure pick-up, etc. The end of the present and the entire past is the hardest part of the game and can cost you your run if you are not careful about it (even segmented). It should take...maybe 1.5-2 hours.

If you're going to start a new file and try some stuff, try to beat my fastest time to Patrof: 1:50. I was cruising on that attempt. Haha. I got the Wind Rune in under 1 hour, and made it to the Water Rune 40 minutes later. That was using Wilme, too. He crushed the beginning of the game, but his time was squashed once he ran into the mid-game slew of magic users.

Haha, sorry.  Didn't mean to come across so sarcastic.  Looking back, that was pretty rude. :-\

The odds of escaping are really, really low with the low speed trio (Lux, Kamil, Olvan), but it is still higher than the odds the actually killing a Sage.  Low speed characters are vastly disadvantaged in battle because they can't dodge attacks and create opportunities.  It would be better to know the formulas, which I unfortunately do not, but I am playing off of 100+ hours of experience with this game for my strategies.  There are some enemies that are just too strong to attempt to kill at certain levels (Coccoons, Sages, and Mutants are good examples).  All of my route planning just came from trial and error, too.  I beat the game with every character, so I know which ones were easiest and which ones had really difficult routes.  Same with the level guidelines I sent you earlier; it can certainly be done at lower levels than what I had said to you, but reaching those levels and proceeding generally pays off in the end.  It takes more time to level, but then the next section of the game is much easier.

As I said before, I'll be streaming a HUGE chunk of the game next weekend.  I highly recommend tuning in to catch some of my strategies.  It covers the present from Bilthem to the end of the game.  I'll be using my mic and dictating my strategies for every battle, level, treasure pick-up, etc.  The end of the present and the entire past is the hardest part of the game and can cost you your run if you are not careful about it (even segmented).  It should take...maybe 1.5-2 hours.

If you're going to start a new file and try some stuff, try to beat my fastest time to Patrof: 1:50.  I was cruising on that attempt.  Haha.  I got the Wind Rune in under 1 hour, and made it to the Water Rune 40 minutes later.  That was using Wilme, too.  He crushed the beginning of the game, but his time was squashed once he ran into the mid-game slew of magic users.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-12 04:35:09 pm

I'm gonna try that...right now as a matter of fact.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-12 05:08:09 pm

Actually, nix on starting right away, I don't even have a route planned out yet Tongue

However, I will be posting these things as a reference guide...

ARMOR Thunder Fire Ice Vacuum Debuff
----------------------------------------------
Xtri 0 20 0 0 0
----------------------------------------------
Coat 0 0 0 0 0
Brwn 0 0 0 0 0
Blck 10 10 10 10 10
----------------------------------------------
XtriAR 0 0 0 0 0
PsyteAR 0 0 0 0 0
AnimAR 0 0 0 0 0
RoylAR 0 0 0 0 0
CourAR 0 0 0 0 0
BravAR 0 0 0 0 0
MystcAR 0 0 0 0 0
FortAR 0 0 0 0 0
ScaleML 0 0 0 0 0
ChainML 0 0 0 0 0
KrynML 0 0 0 0 0
----------------------------------------------
LghtRB 0 0 0 0 0
CttnRB 0 0 0 20 20
SilkRB 0 0 0 20 20
XtreRB 0 0 0 0 0
SeasRB 0 0 0 20 20
HopeRB 0 0 0 20 20
AngerRB 0 0 0 20 20
VictRB 0 0 0 20 20
DespRB 10 10 10 20 20
ConfRB 10 10 10 20 20
MystcRB 10 10 10 30 30
ImmoRB 20 20 20 30 30
----------------------------------------------
FireCL 0 40 0 0 0
IceCL 0 0 40 0 0
----------------------------------------------

ACCESSORY Thunder Fire Ice Vacuum Debuff
----------------------------------------------
Horn 30 30 30 30 30
----------------------------------------------
Pod 30 30 30 30 30
----------------------------------------------
XtriSH 30 30 30 30 30
KrynSH 30 30 30 30 30
CourSH 30 30 30 30 30
BrillSH 30 30 30 30 30
JustSH 30 30 30 30 30
SoundSH 30 30 30 30 30
MystSH 30 30 30 30 30
AngerSH 30 30 30 30 30
IllusSH 30 30 30 30 30
MystcSH 30 30 30 30 30
FrtnSH 30 30 30 30 30
ImmoSH 30 30 30 30 30
----------------------------------------------
XtriHM 30 30 30 40 40
Scarf 30 30 30 40 40
MaskMK 30 30 30 40 40
KrynMK 30 30 30 40 40
BrillCR 30 30 30 40 60
----------------------------------------------
Ring 30 30 30 95 30
Amulet 30 30 30 30 95
----------------------------------------------

b) Fire Cloak: found immediately behind the armor shop in
Dowaine. It provides high defense against fire magic.

c) Ring: found in the southwest corner of the inn in Pandam.
It helps defend against vacuum spells.

d) Ice Cloak: found behind the far southwest pillar in the
castle of Baran (where you fight the Serpent). It provides high
defense against ice magic.

e) Amulet: found behind the right-most pillar in a group of 3
on the right side of the entrance hall of Bilthem castle. It helps
defend against debuff spells. It's also Lejes's best accessory in the
game.

__Pr Seed: Search the small nook straight E of the entrance to Rablesk

__P Seed: Chest in Aran Castle (where Romus is)

__A Seed: Chest in Cave of Earth (where Pison is)

__Pr Seed: Chest in Melenam

__P Seed: Search the table in front of the elder in Guntz

__A Seed: Chest in Cavern under Patrof (on the way to evil apprentice)

__Pr Seed: Chest in Cavern under Patrof

__P Seed: Chest in Patrof Castle (where evil apprentice is)

__A Seed: Chest in basement of NE building in Bone

__M Seed: Chest in Grime Tower (Olvan gets this early)

__V Seed: Chest in Grime Tower (Olvan gets this early)

__A Seed: Chest in basement of Olvan's father's house in Pang

__V Seed: Chest in Cave to Boere (on the way to Luze)

__Pr Seed: Chest in Cave to Boere (on the way to Luze)

__I Seed: Chest in Cave of Laosu (W of Padal)

__I Seed: Chest in Baran Castle (where Serpent is)

__V Seed: Chest in Bilthem Castle (where Doros is)

__A Seed: Chest in North Tower (can go to Grime Tower from here)

__M Seed: Chest in Cave of Kapel (on the way to Bugask)

__Pr Seed: Chest in Cave of Silence (where M-Pison is)

__P Seed: Chest in basement of present-day Gorfun (where Gariso is)

__A Seed: Search SE corner of engine room in Airship after crash

__M Seed: Chest in Barrier Cave (where Saro is)

__P Seed: Chest in Barrier Cave (where Saro is)

__P Seed: Chest in past-day Gorfun (where Gorsia is)

Actually, nix on starting right away, I don't even have a route planned out yet :P

However, I will be posting these things as a reference guide...

ARMOR       Thunder  Fire  Ice  Vacuum  Debuff
----------------------------------------------
Xtri            0     20     0     0      0
----------------------------------------------
Coat            0      0     0     0      0
Brwn            0      0     0     0      0
Blck           10     10    10    10     10
----------------------------------------------
XtriAR          0      0     0     0      0
PsyteAR         0      0     0     0      0
AnimAR          0      0     0     0      0
RoylAR          0      0     0     0      0
CourAR          0      0     0     0      0
BravAR          0      0     0     0      0
MystcAR         0      0     0     0      0
FortAR          0      0     0     0      0
ScaleML         0      0     0     0      0
ChainML         0      0     0     0      0
KrynML          0      0     0     0      0
----------------------------------------------
LghtRB          0      0     0     0      0
CttnRB          0      0     0    20     20
SilkRB          0      0     0    20     20
XtreRB          0      0     0     0      0
SeasRB          0      0     0    20     20
HopeRB          0      0     0    20     20
AngerRB         0      0     0    20     20
VictRB          0      0     0    20     20
DespRB         10     10    10    20     20
ConfRB         10     10    10    20     20
MystcRB        10     10    10    30     30
ImmoRB         20     20    20    30     30
----------------------------------------------
FireCL          0     40     0     0      0
IceCL           0      0    40     0      0
----------------------------------------------

ACCESSORY   Thunder  Fire  Ice  Vacuum  Debuff
----------------------------------------------
Horn           30     30    30    30     30
----------------------------------------------
Pod            30     30    30    30     30
----------------------------------------------
XtriSH         30     30    30    30     30
KrynSH         30     30    30    30     30
CourSH         30     30    30    30     30
BrillSH        30     30    30    30     30
JustSH         30     30    30    30     30
SoundSH        30     30    30    30     30
MystSH         30     30    30    30     30
AngerSH        30     30    30    30     30
IllusSH        30     30    30    30     30
MystcSH        30     30    30    30     30
FrtnSH         30     30    30    30     30
ImmoSH         30     30    30    30     30
----------------------------------------------
XtriHM         30     30    30    40     40
Scarf          30     30    30    40     40
MaskMK         30     30    30    40     40
KrynMK         30     30    30    40     40
BrillCR        30     30    30    40     60
----------------------------------------------
Ring           30     30    30    95     30
Amulet         30     30    30    30     95
----------------------------------------------

b) Fire Cloak: found immediately behind the armor shop in
Dowaine.  It provides high defense against fire magic.

c) Ring: found in the southwest corner of the inn in Pandam.
It helps defend against vacuum spells.

d) Ice Cloak: found behind the far southwest pillar in the
castle of Baran (where you fight the Serpent).  It provides high
defense against ice magic.

e) Amulet: found behind the right-most pillar in a group of 3
on the right side of the entrance hall of Bilthem castle.  It helps
defend against debuff spells.  It's also Lejes's best accessory in the
game.

__Pr Seed: Search the small nook straight E of the entrance to Rablesk

__P Seed: Chest in Aran Castle (where Romus is)

__A Seed: Chest in Cave of Earth (where Pison is)

__Pr Seed: Chest in Melenam

__P Seed: Search the table in front of the elder in Guntz

__A Seed: Chest in Cavern under Patrof (on the way to evil apprentice)

__Pr Seed: Chest in Cavern under Patrof

__P Seed: Chest in Patrof Castle (where evil apprentice is)

__A Seed: Chest in basement of NE building in Bone

__M Seed: Chest in Grime Tower (Olvan gets this early)

__V Seed: Chest in Grime Tower (Olvan gets this early)

__A Seed: Chest in basement of Olvan's father's house in Pang

__V Seed: Chest in Cave to Boere (on the way to Luze)

__Pr Seed: Chest in Cave to Boere (on the way to Luze)

__I Seed: Chest in Cave of Laosu (W of Padal)

__I Seed: Chest in Baran Castle (where Serpent is)

__V Seed: Chest in Bilthem Castle (where Doros is)

__A Seed: Chest in North Tower (can go to Grime Tower from here)

__M Seed: Chest in Cave of Kapel (on the way to Bugask)

__Pr Seed: Chest in Cave of Silence (where M-Pison is)

__P Seed: Chest in basement of present-day Gorfun (where Gariso is)

__A Seed: Search SE corner of engine room in Airship after crash

__M Seed: Chest in Barrier Cave (where Saro is)

__P Seed: Chest in Barrier Cave (where Saro is)

__P Seed: Chest in past-day Gorfun (where Gorsia is)

FionordeQuester

2010-03-12 05:44:19 pm

Also, I've been looking into the mechanics Faq, and have discovered some interesting things...

1) Other than HP, Androids are actually every bit as tough as Pison himself is, and even possess 1.5x the Speed that he does!
2) But they're also completely defenseless against the spells HPCatcher, MPCatcher, Petrify, and Defense2. The characters who learn any of these at a level where you can actually use them on the Androids are Olvan, Valsu, Wilme, Esuna, and Lejes. Only Olvan, Valsu, and Lejes get the one I'm really interested in though, Petrify (though HPCatcher might also be awesome, I'm not sure).

ShinerCCC

2010-03-12 05:51:44 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Immunity is meaningless when Androids have that much Speed. They'll dodge whatever spell you have in mind. And they only bother you for a short stretch of the game anyway.

I randomly looked into speedrunning this game a long time ago and didn't even get as far as the Wind Rune. I'm not exactly an expert though, my only experience with this game is a Wilme playthrough (no partner, got to the submarine and found that everything on the other side of that cave is impossible to kill, it's actually probably the hardest enemies on that whole continent) and an excellently successful Esuna playthrough (Valsu had the Sky Rune...and I got him to join me at the very end of the game LOL)

Anyway, because of Bone being impossibly difficult, especially for someone who levels minimally (i.e. for a speedrun) this means you should pick one of the three characters who can go around: Olvan (teleport through Tower of Grime, never tried that but I think it's supposed to be hard), Lux or Esuna (Get to take the boat instead). Esuna has a tough time at the start of the game, but Lux gets huge starting stats so he gets off to a running start. But it peters out versus Androids anyway, probably due to his low Speed, and you don't actually have to level to kill that dog at the start. I would consider Esuna for this run, because Ice 1 is a reliable way to kill anything, her physical attacks actually aren't that bad so she can last during boss fights, and she's charismatic so she can easily get another apprentice to join her.

ALSO the 7 hour thing is a soft limit. We have Tales of Symphonia which is just shy of 8 hours, Okami is almost 10 hours, etc.

Immunity is meaningless when Androids have that much Speed. They'll dodge whatever spell you have in mind. And they only bother you for a short stretch of the game anyway.

I randomly looked into speedrunning this game a long time ago and didn't even get as far as the Wind Rune. I'm not exactly an expert though, my only experience with this game is a Wilme playthrough (no partner, got to the submarine and found that everything on the other side of that cave is impossible to kill, it's actually probably the hardest enemies on that whole continent) and an excellently successful Esuna playthrough (Valsu had the Sky Rune...and I got him to join me at the very end of the game LOL)

Anyway, because of Bone being impossibly difficult, especially for someone who levels minimally (i.e. for a speedrun) this means you should pick one of the three characters who can go around: Olvan (teleport through Tower of Grime, never tried that but I think it's supposed to be hard), Lux or Esuna (Get to take the boat instead). Esuna has a tough time at the start of the game, but Lux gets huge starting stats so he gets off to a running start. But it peters out versus Androids anyway, probably due to his low Speed, and you don't actually have to level to kill that dog at the start. I would consider Esuna for this run, because Ice 1 is a reliable way to kill anything, her physical attacks actually aren't that bad so she can last during boss fights, and she's charismatic so she can easily get another apprentice to join her.

ALSO the 7 hour thing is a soft limit. We have Tales of Symphonia which is just shy of 8 hours, Okami is almost 10 hours, etc.

Nitrodon

2010-03-12 05:59:41 pm

The North Tower (the place you go via Grime Tower) is definitely out, and the area around Pandam probably isn't any better than Dowaine. I'd say the destination from Bone is not important at all to the choice of character.

PJ

2010-03-12 06:10:05 pm

Is PJ

I agree with Nitrodon. Grime Tower is useful only for the Illusion Shield (which is godly!). Grime Tower has a lot of 3x Red Demon, 3X S. Witch, and 3x Sage battles, which are absolutely unwinnable for Olvan.

Taking the boat to Pandam really is only an advantage to Esuna, since she can get the hidden Ring there to be used for S. Brain leveling so she doesn't die from Vacuum. For Lux, it doesn't help much since he has to trek all the way up and right to Telaine anyways. The Pandam area has Red Demons, which are marginally easier than Coccoons, Sages, or Defeats that roam around Dowaine, but it also has Mutants which are far harder. Even at high levels, Mutants are still a big problem. Running from Dowaine to Telaine is really the ideal situation:

http://www.justin.tv/clip/c06bab2c35800a07

There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do that in a segmented run. I even did it in my single segment run. It is one of a few places where a no-battle run is necessary (the other two being the final two dungeons).

When you are looking at enemy resistances, ignore everything except Vacuum resistance. I dumped all the enemy data from the ROM and printed off a list of enemies and their Vacuum resistances; I studied this for a long time until I had it all memorized for my run. Any Vac res between 30 and 50 is basically a guaranteed KO with Vacuum; 70%+ is not worth trying (that means you, S.Brain!). Petrify resist is interesting, but I have never found it to be that useful. It's useful for a last-ditch effort (a lone enemy needs two turns to be killed and you are very low on health), but otherwise it isn't that advantageous. Especially on an enemy like an Android who you can't hit.

The other only resistances that are useful are really obvious weaknesses. For example, Red Demon has 0% Ice resistance, so he can be killed by a single Ice 1 from anybody with a reasonable magic stat (Esuna, Lejes, Valsu, and high-level Kamil).

I agree with Nitrodon.  Grime Tower is useful only for the Illusion Shield (which is godly!).  Grime Tower has a lot of 3x Red Demon, 3X S. Witch, and 3x Sage battles, which are absolutely unwinnable for Olvan.

Taking the boat to Pandam really is only an advantage to Esuna, since she can get the hidden Ring there to be used for S. Brain leveling so she doesn't die from Vacuum.  For Lux, it doesn't help much since he has to trek all the way up and right to Telaine anyways.  The Pandam area has Red Demons, which are marginally easier than Coccoons, Sages, or Defeats that roam around Dowaine, but it also has Mutants which are far harder.  Even at high levels, Mutants are still a big problem.  Running from Dowaine to Telaine is really the ideal situation:

http://www.justin.tv/clip/c06bab2c35800a07

There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to do that in a segmented run.  I even did it in my single segment run.  It is one of a few places where a no-battle run is necessary (the other two being the final two dungeons).

When you are looking at enemy resistances, ignore everything except Vacuum resistance.  I dumped all the enemy data from the ROM and printed off a list of enemies and their Vacuum resistances; I studied this for a long time until I had it all memorized for my run.  Any Vac res between 30 and 50 is basically a guaranteed KO with Vacuum; 70%+ is not worth trying (that means you, S.Brain!).  Petrify resist is interesting, but I have never found it to be that useful.  It's useful for a last-ditch effort (a lone enemy needs two turns to be killed and you are very low on health), but otherwise it isn't that advantageous.  Especially on an enemy like an Android who you can't hit.

The other only resistances that are useful are really obvious weaknesses.  For example, Red Demon has 0% Ice resistance, so he can be killed by a single Ice 1 from anybody with a reasonable magic stat (Esuna, Lejes, Valsu, and high-level Kamil).

FionordeQuester

Edit history:

FionordeQuester: 2010-03-12 09:34:19 pm

2010-03-12 09:18:01 pm

Alright, here's the tentative plan. I start this game, and get into enough battles on the way to Rablesk that I almost level up. I save, end segment, then I start the next segment, get into another battle, get an awesome level up, then get to Romus and get ROFL god stomped by him. I'm not completely sure if that's a good plan or not, but I'm gonna put it into action now anyways, just to see what's gonna happen.

Hold on though PJ, I want to know, did you ever need any B Power or B Protects with Lejes?

EDIT: Oh snap, um, one problem. My emulator won't save my game, so I'm forced to use save states. Will that screw me up in terms of luck manipulation?

PJ

2010-03-12 09:40:33 pm

Is PJ

Did I ever use B Protects and B Powers? Yes. Probably around 90 of them. Hahaha. They are the most valuable items in this game. You already missed a few important steps if that's your plan though. Pick up the hidden Mirror in Lemele castle and the hidden Opal in the town. Sell the Opal and buy two B Powers and 1 Potn 2. Talk to the woman outside the item shop for a free Potn 1 (and search jars in Rablesk for another Potn 1). The order of B Power, Potn 2, Potn 1 in your item list is really crucial and saves a lot of time over the course of the entire run.

Once you die and kill Romus, buy some B Protects so those are below Potn 1. Those four items are the most used so it's important to keep their place in the item list.

Save states will likely mess up the luck manipulation, yea. Won't really matter though, tbh, unless your movements are frame perfect everytime you leave the Inn, exit the town, and navigate on the world map.

Ah, one last thing. You will want to get that Pr Seed in Rablesk at some point. Maybe after you go to get the Whistle, since it's pretty close there. And manipulate it to be a 4.

I honestly don't think you should be worrying about the beginning of the game. It can be run near perfectly in a single segment run even. Just play until you get halfway through the game and THEN worry about planning. That's where you'll see how difficult segmenting is going to be, and how important character choice is.

Did I ever use B Protects and B Powers?  Yes.  Probably around 90 of them.  Hahaha.  They are the most valuable items in this game.  You already missed a few important steps if that's your plan though.  Pick up the hidden Mirror in Lemele castle and the hidden Opal in the town.  Sell the Opal and buy two B Powers and 1 Potn 2.  Talk to the woman outside the item shop for a free Potn 1 (and search jars in Rablesk for another Potn 1).  The order of B Power, Potn 2, Potn 1 in your item list is really crucial and saves a lot of time over the course of the entire run.

Once you die and kill Romus, buy some B Protects so those are below Potn 1.  Those four items are the most used so it's important to keep their place in the item list.

Save states will likely mess up the luck manipulation, yea.  Won't really matter though, tbh, unless your movements are frame perfect everytime you leave the Inn, exit the town, and navigate on the world map.

Ah, one last thing.  You will want to get that Pr Seed in Rablesk at some point.  Maybe after you go to get the Whistle, since it's pretty close there.  And manipulate it to be a 4.

I honestly don't think you should be worrying about the beginning of the game.  It can be run near perfectly in a single segment run even.  Just play until you get halfway through the game and THEN worry about planning.  That's where you'll see how difficult segmenting is going to be, and how important character choice is.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-12 09:48:06 pm

What's the reason for the Mirror? And what equipment did you purchase for Lejes? And also, if frame perfect steps are what it's going to take to make a run that's acceptable for Speed Demos Archives, than I'm gonna do that, or I'm not gonna finish at all.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-12 10:02:26 pm

Alright, I got a level up that gained me 6 HP, 3 to Power and Magic, and 5 to Speed. I asked the guy who did the TAS what he believed to be the most important stats in the game, and he said Power, Speed, and Magic (I asked him which stats were worth restarting for for the best results). I actually managed to get to Romus at Level 2, so should I be happy and continue on, or continue until at least two of those stats are maxed and the other is average?

PJ

2010-03-12 10:24:35 pm

Is PJ

I guess I am confused with what you are trying to accomplish. I sent you the entire route I used for my run, including the gear I purchased. What is the point of you running on emulator? Are you testing to make sure it works? The whole playthrough on emulator in confusing to me, really.

As for the mirror, it will either be used on the Trick in Cave of Earth when you decide to fight him, or it'll be used in a Manrot battle between Bonro and Zellis or b/w Zellis and Melenam cave. That's when it is used for my runs generally. Or maybe since this is a segmented run, you'd make a segment for the run from Zellis to Melenam and you wouldn't need it. Idk. The whole concept of segments for this game is still pretty tough for me to understand.

For leveling, it doesn't really matter honestly. You can't play it like the TAS and beat it at level 8 or whatever. You'll still need to be level 40 to beat it, so even if you get average stats it'll still be fine. I say just max speed. Power and magic and guard don't matter much. Speed is the most important stat.

I guess I am confused with what you are trying to accomplish.  I sent you the entire route I used for my run, including the gear I purchased.  What is the point of you running on emulator?  Are you testing to make sure it works?  The whole playthrough on emulator in confusing to me, really.

As for the mirror, it will either be used on the Trick in Cave of Earth when you decide to fight him, or it'll be used in a Manrot battle between Bonro and Zellis or b/w Zellis and Melenam cave.  That's when it is used for my runs generally.  Or maybe since this is a segmented run, you'd make a segment for the run from Zellis to Melenam and you wouldn't need it.  Idk.  The whole concept of segments for this game is still pretty tough for me to understand.

For leveling, it doesn't really matter honestly.  You can't play it like the TAS and beat it at level 8 or whatever.  You'll still need to be level 40 to beat it, so even if you get average stats it'll still be fine.  I say just max speed.  Power and magic and guard don't matter much.  Speed is the most important stat.

FionordeQuester

Edit history:

FionordeQuester: 2010-03-12 11:14:08 pm

2010-03-12 10:36:46 pm

I guess I am confused with what you are trying to accomplish. I sent you the entire route I used for my run, including the gear I purchased. What is the point of you running on emulator? Are you testing to make sure it works? The whole playthrough on emulator in confusing to me, really.

I'm trying out your route, but also seeing what I can do to improve on it. I'm still trying to beat that 1:44 benchmark you know. For example, right now what I'm trying to accomplish, is to see how long I can put off grinding until Level 7. If all goes well, I can put it off until I destroy Romus, then start grinding with those extra levels I'm already guaranteed to have. So, if I don't succeed in improving your route, at least I'll have first hand experience in executing it. Also, one other thing, your route never mentions stuff like getting the Mirror and getting those B Powers and everything. It never even mentions fighting that Trick.

Plus, I need experience. There's no way I'm going to be able to get the results I want without doing test runs and all that first.

As for the mirror, it will either be used on the Trick in Cave of Earth when you decide to fight him, or it'll be used in a Manrot battle between Bonro and Zellis or b/w Zellis and Melenam cave. That's when it is used for my runs generally. Or maybe since this is a segmented run, you'd make a segment for the run from Zellis to Melenam and you wouldn't need it. Idk. The whole concept of segments for this game is still pretty tough for me to understand.

Segments are saving and resetting until you get maximum results like getting only awesome level ups and runnig until very few monsters between where you are and where you are going.

Plus, I've just come up with this awesome idea! Maybe, I can make it so that almost all my fighting is on S-Brains, and for everything else, I'll recruit high speed partners with maxed Elnard boosts to speed, so that I can just RUN from everything except the monsters I want to grind off of!

For leveling, it doesn't really matter honestly. You can't play it like the TAS and beat it at level 8 or whatever. You'll still need to be level 40 to beat it, so even if you get average stats it'll still be fine. I say just max speed. Power and magic and guard don't matter much. Speed is the most important stat.

Actually, the maker of the TAS say that they're going to need at least Level 25 to beat Gorsia. They say he's flat out impossible otherwise.

[i]I guess I am confused with what you are trying to accomplish.  I sent you the entire route I used for my run, including the gear I purchased.  What is the point of you running on emulator?  Are you testing to make sure it works?  The whole playthrough on emulator in confusing to me, really.[/i]

I'm trying out your route, but also seeing what I can do to improve on it.  I'm still trying to beat that 1:44 benchmark you know.  For example, right now what I'm trying to accomplish, is to see how long I can put off grinding until Level 7.  If all goes well, I can put it off until I destroy Romus, then start grinding with those extra levels I'm already guaranteed to have.  So, if I don't succeed in improving your route, at least I'll have first hand experience in executing it.  Also, one other thing, your route never mentions stuff like getting the Mirror and getting those B Powers and everything.  It never even mentions fighting that Trick.

Plus, I need experience.  There's no way I'm going to be able to get the results I want without doing test runs and all that first.

[i]As for the mirror, it will either be used on the Trick in Cave of Earth when you decide to fight him, or it'll be used in a Manrot battle between Bonro and Zellis or b/w Zellis and Melenam cave.  That's when it is used for my runs generally.  Or maybe since this is a segmented run, you'd make a segment for the run from Zellis to Melenam and you wouldn't need it.  Idk.  The whole concept of segments for this game is still pretty tough for me to understand.[/i]

Segments are saving and resetting until you get maximum results like getting only awesome level ups and runnig until very few monsters between where you are and where you are going.

Plus, I've just come up with this awesome idea!  Maybe, I can make it so that almost all my fighting is on S-Brains, and for everything else, I'll recruit high speed partners with maxed Elnard boosts to speed, so that I can just RUN from everything except the monsters I want to grind off of!

[i]For leveling, it doesn't really matter honestly.  You can't play it like the TAS and beat it at level 8 or whatever.  You'll still need to be level 40 to beat it, so even if you get average stats it'll still be fine.  I say just max speed.  Power and magic and guard don't matter much.  Speed is the most important stat.[/i]

Actually, the maker of the TAS say that they're going to need at least Level 25 to beat Gorsia.  They say he's flat out impossible otherwise.

FionordeQuester

2010-03-12 11:11:08 pm

Update: Hah, hah, ha! Success! Here's a run down! Note that when I say segments, I mean that's what the segments would've been if I actually had this on my SNES.

Segment 2: First time through, I run into an easily dispatched enemy before entering the castle and get that kind of level up I wanted so badly. I run away from a Stone, and then get into a fierce battle with a Chimera. I used Fire on it for half its HP, and then I actually manage to punch it out with physical attacks. I didn't even need to use any Potions! Romus kicks my ass, and its back to Rablesk I go.

Segment 3: I get the Whistle, get that 4 bonus from the Pr Seed, and save again.

Segment 4: All the way back to Romus, and guess what? I didn't get A SINGLE FIGHT! I dodged all of them! Romus goes down pretty easily, and the two level ups I got even ended up being above average! So, wow, that took me about two hours of repeated failures, but man was it worth it. Now begins the next part. My tentative plan is to keep making new segments, with each one landing me with a battle with three baddies at a time, all the way until Level 7, like PJ suggests. If I'm feeling ambitious enough, I'm also gonna restart each segment, until that three on one fight ends up with me recieving a Potion1 or Opal from the monsters.

If I can actually do this, that'd be so awesome. But, I also know that it's far from over, and that it's gonna be extremely long and frustatring, and that's alright. But guys, if you could keep helping in whatever way you can, that'd be awesome, because I'm still not sure I quite know what I'm getting myself into....

Update:  Hah, hah, ha!  Success!  Here's a run down!  Note that when I say segments, I mean that's what the segments would've been if I actually had this on my SNES.

Segment 2: First time through, I run into an easily dispatched enemy before entering the castle and get that kind of level up I wanted so badly.  I run away from a Stone, and then get into a fierce battle with a Chimera. I used Fire on it for half its HP, and then I actually manage to punch it out with physical attacks.  I didn't even need to use any Potions!  Romus kicks my ass, and its back to Rablesk I go.

Segment 3: I get the Whistle, get that 4 bonus from the Pr Seed, and save again.

Segment 4: All the way back to Romus, and guess what?  I didn't get A SINGLE FIGHT!  I dodged all of them!  Romus goes down pretty easily, and the two level ups I got even ended up being above average!  So, wow, that took me about two hours of repeated failures, but man was it worth it.  Now begins the next part.  My tentative plan is to keep making new segments, with each one landing me with a battle with three baddies at a time, all the way until Level 7, like PJ suggests.  If I'm feeling ambitious enough, I'm also gonna restart each segment, until that three on one fight ends up with me recieving a Potion1 or Opal from the monsters.

If I can actually do this, that'd be so awesome.  But, I also know that it's far from over, and that it's gonna be extremely long and frustatring, and that's alright. But guys, if you could keep helping in whatever way you can, that'd be awesome, because I'm still not sure I quite know what I'm getting myself into....

PJ

2010-03-12 11:54:07 pm

Is PJ

Quote from FionordeQuester:

Also, one other thing, your route never mentions stuff like getting the Mirror and getting those B Powers and everything. It never even mentions fighting that Trick.

Yea I didn't mention a lot of stuff because I assumed most of it was common knowledge. :/ My mistake maybe.

Quote from FionordeQuester:

Segments are saving and resetting until you get maximum results like getting only awesome level ups and runnig until very few monsters between where you are and where you are going.

Plus, I've just come up with this awesome idea! Maybe, I can make it so that almost all my fighting is on S-Brains, and for everything else, I'll recruit high speed partners with maxed Elnard boosts to speed, so that I can just RUN from everything except the monsters I want to grind off of!

I understand what a segmented run is, but it just doesn't really make sense for this run for me, to be honest. The beginning of the game (from start through Bone) can be done pretty flawlessly without an issue. There are a lot of very possible enemy encounters, and a lot of possible ways to win them, so manipulation isn't horrible. What I already warned you of though, is the middle of the game. It is not possible to actually get a segment to turn out ideally there because of all the luck you will need. You need to trust me here. I am not sure how far you made it in this game, but the true difficulty of this game doesn't even begin to show its face for a few hours. Before you continue to optimize a route, just play through the game, taking your time, until you have the Star Rune. Then start your optimization from there. The enemy choices for leveling will be very important, and the equipment you choose to buy and the order in which you plan to do the quests. And of course, your final level. THAT is where the difficulty begins. I'm afraid you will spend too much time perfecting the beginning, as countless others have, and then once you reach the middle you will see what I meant.

S.Brains are a good enemy to fight for levels, and very consistent, but you won't be able to kill them if you're at such a low level. I used to try hitting them with Vacuum1, but it is really, really inconsistent and one miss is a death. It is faster to buff and attack them than it is overall to try and instant-kill them. This is where you need to think. If you segment it, you can still only save at an Inn. If you keep going back and saving between every battle, you will lose time. If you try to do an entire segment where you not only fight an S.Brain every battle, but kill it with Vacuum1, you will never do it. Encounter rate on S.Brain Isle (Beore Isle) is around 70% with S.Brains, but the rest of the encounters are Sages, Red Demons, and Coccoons, which not only waste a huge amount of time with their low experience, but they will also likely kill you. Even if you do find an S.Brain every battle, to have Vac1 hit every time on the first attempt is very difficult on console.

Also don't bank on being able to get partners that easily. The IDEAL route with Lejes is to partner with Valsu at level 13 or 14 before fighting Red Pison so he can use Agility on you and let you dodge more often. This saves time later since you can get Star Rune 2-3 levels sooner. However, in my SS run, Valsu fought me! At level 13. The chances of them initiating battle increases as you get more runes; I had 1 rune and it started a battle. Not likely you'll get a fast partner (Valsu, Wilme, Esuna) with anything more than the Wind Rune. Wilme fights always and will probably never join you. Either Valsu or Esuna will likely be your Star Rune battle, which means they are killed forever and can't be joined later, and the other one will perhaps just want to fight you instead of joining. Either way, it is not likely that the strategy will pan out in your favor. Just ignore that strategy of the TAS. Wink

Congrats on running to Romus without a battle. That is what is necessary in this game. Just a note though, I beat him at level 1 without a battle. Wink

Quote from FionordeQuester:

Actually, the maker of the TAS say that they're going to need at least Level 25 to beat Gorsia. They say he's flat out impossible otherwise.

Hahahahaha. I am glad they finally realized this. I saw the intended route a few months ago and laughed for a long time when I looked at the plan for the final battle.

Edit: In your last post, you mention saving after every battle and after the Pr Seed roll. Is this a joke? The time it will take to do that will put you behind my SS run. Not to mention you'll be looking at like 300+ segments for this run.

[quote=FionordeQuester]Also, one other thing, your route never mentions stuff like getting the Mirror and getting those B Powers and everything.  It never even mentions fighting that Trick.[/quote]

Yea I didn't mention a lot of stuff because I assumed most of it was common knowledge.  :/  My mistake maybe.

[quote=FionordeQuester]Segments are saving and resetting until you get maximum results like getting only awesome level ups and runnig until very few monsters between where you are and where you are going.

Plus, I've just come up with this awesome idea!  Maybe, I can make it so that almost all my fighting is on S-Brains, and for everything else, I'll recruit high speed partners with maxed Elnard boosts to speed, so that I can just RUN from everything except the monsters I want to grind off of![/quote]

I understand what a segmented run is, but it just doesn't really make sense for this run for me, to be honest.  The beginning of the game (from start through Bone) can be done pretty flawlessly without an issue.  There are a lot of very possible enemy encounters, and a lot of possible ways to win them, so manipulation isn't horrible.  What I already warned you of though, is the middle of the game.  It is not possible to actually get a segment to turn out ideally there because of all the luck you will need.  You need to trust me here.  I am not sure how far you made it in this game, but the true difficulty of this game doesn't even begin to show its face for a few hours.  Before you continue to optimize a route, just play through the game, taking your time, until you have the Star Rune.  Then start your optimization from there.  The enemy choices for leveling will be very important, and the equipment you choose to buy and the order in which you plan to do the quests.  And of course, your final level.  THAT is where the difficulty begins.  I'm afraid you will spend too much time perfecting the beginning, as countless others have, and then once you reach the middle you will see what I meant.

S.Brains are a good enemy to fight for levels, and very consistent, but you won't be able to kill them if you're at such a low level.  I used to try hitting them with Vacuum1, but it is really, really inconsistent and one miss is a death.  It is faster to buff and attack them than it is overall to try and instant-kill them.  This is where you need to think.  If you segment it, you can still only save at an Inn.  If you keep going back and saving between every battle, you will lose time.  If you try to do an entire segment where you not only fight an S.Brain every battle, but kill it with Vacuum1, you will never do it.  Encounter rate on S.Brain Isle (Beore Isle) is around 70% with S.Brains, but the rest of the encounters are Sages, Red Demons, and Coccoons, which not only waste a huge amount of time with their low experience, but they will also likely kill you.  Even if you do find an S.Brain every battle, to have Vac1 hit every time on the first attempt is very difficult on console.

Also don't bank on being able to get partners that easily.  The IDEAL route with Lejes is to partner with Valsu at level 13 or 14 before fighting Red Pison so he can use Agility on you and let you dodge more often.  This saves time later since you can get Star Rune 2-3 levels sooner.  However, in my SS run, Valsu fought me!  At level 13.  The chances of them initiating battle increases as you get more runes; I had 1 rune and it started a battle.  Not likely you'll get a fast partner (Valsu, Wilme, Esuna) with anything more than the Wind Rune.  Wilme fights always and will probably never join you.  Either Valsu or Esuna will likely be your Star Rune battle, which means they are killed forever and can't be joined later, and the other one will perhaps just want to fight you instead of joining.  Either way, it is not likely that the strategy will pan out in your favor.  Just ignore that strategy of the TAS.  ;)

Congrats on running to Romus without a battle.  That is what is necessary in this game.  Just a note though, I beat him at level 1 without a battle.  ;)

[quote=FionordeQuester]Actually, the maker of the TAS say that they're going to need at least Level 25 to beat Gorsia.  They say he's flat out impossible otherwise.[/quote]

Hahahahaha.  I am glad they finally realized this.  I saw the intended route a few months ago and laughed for a long time when I looked at the plan for the final battle.

Edit:  In your last post, you mention saving after every battle and after the Pr Seed roll.  Is this a joke?  The time it will take to do that will put you behind my SS run.  Not to mention you'll be looking at like 300+ segments for this run.