Amnesia: The Dark Descent

André

Edit history:

André: 2011-08-01 02:14:21 pm

André: 2011-08-01 02:13:29 pm

2011-08-01 04:10:37 am

Main Work!!!

Quote from Blazier:

Just wanna also comment that in the study, the shovel glitch is quite a bit slower than just using the windows. Unless you can make it 3-4 seconds faster than in your planning videos, it's slower than what Apjjm did in his segmented run. Also, you should go around the pipes instead of under them in the Machine Room, I'm pretty sure.

Yeah but you have to considered that I am less fluid than Apjjm cause I do a lot of mistake, just check Apjjm rock pile VS. mine, also, I said that I'm going to use the normal way instead(cause the shovel was only a security not to fall), because I was going way too slower on the window.

For the machine room, you can still keep your half running speed(because of the shadow appearing) while doing that, actually it's more precise and faster by about 0.5 to 1 second. The machine room is the place I never had really perfect in about a hundred or more of attempts, it's all precision stuff almost undoable perfectly in a SS, I personally never been satisfied by my machines rooms I did so far.

[quote="Blazier"]Just wanna also comment that in the study, the shovel glitch is quite a bit slower than just using the windows. Unless you can make it 3-4 seconds faster than in your planning videos, it's slower than what Apjjm did in his segmented run. Also, you should go around the pipes instead of under them in the Machine Room, I'm pretty sure.[/quote]
Yeah but you have to considered that I am less fluid than Apjjm cause I do a lot of mistake, just check Apjjm rock pile VS. mine, also, I said that I'm going to use the normal way instead(cause the shovel was only a security not to fall), because I was going way too slower on the window.

For the machine room, you can still keep your half running speed(because of the shadow appearing) while doing that, actually it's more precise and faster by about 0.5 to 1 second. The machine room is the place I never had really perfect in about a hundred or more of attempts, it's all precision stuff almost undoable perfectly in a SS, I personally never been satisfied by my machines rooms I did so far.

André

Edit history:

André: 2011-08-01 05:31:53 pm

André: 2011-08-01 05:31:35 pm

2011-08-01 05:30:21 pm

Main Work!!!

I destroy the game. Remember the entrance hall glitch I found, I think using this glitch should be considered in a different category. With only 5 minutes of search I could be able to do it everywhere I think. At first I was searching trick to help you

First a Storage that make you save about 10 seconds, with doing a straight line instead of moving around to get in and out

After this, I search in the study to test the approach I found in the storage(you grab the rod and get out immediately) and realize at the same time, "this could be probably be done every else where in the game"

Take 2 try for Storage and 4 for Study. Which prove these glitch I found prove that the loading of this game is destroy(like we open the door in the loading and the loadiong time isn't even count in the final time, it should be in a different category).

Apjjm

Edit history:

Apjjm: 2011-08-01 06:07:50 pm

2011-08-01 06:03:01 pm

What?

LOL that it is insane. It would be possible to just go from one map to the next over and over with that only having to move to interact with stuff. Off the top of my head, then, the only maps using that glitch you would have to play are:
>Cellar Archives because of the lock pick (41 seconds)
>Storage, for the drill and rods (75 seconds)
>Study & Guest room for rod and key (40 seconds between them)
>Machine room (90 seconds)
>Back hall only for activating the elevator (8 seconds)
>Elevator, because it is unskippable (37.084 seconds)
>Prison #1 (north) - Because of hammer & chisel puzzle (77 seconds)
>Morgue - only until the vaccine is administered (60 seconds?)
>Choir west & Transept for orb peices (240 seconds)
>Chancel for the capture (25 seconds)
>Orb chamber for the end (40 seconds)
Total (generously) estimated time using that glitch ~ 12 mins.
Perhaps it is possible to pick up stuff with the glitch? In that case it is about 3 minutes!

So yeah, totally different category. I might work on it though until I have the money for a new HDD, because I have the hard drive space to record loading screens :).

---

In other news, found a way to break the library in justine!

LOL that it is insane. It would be possible to just go from one map to the next over and over with that only having to move to interact with stuff. Off the top of my head, then, the only maps using that glitch you would have to play are:
 >Cellar Archives because of the lock pick (41 seconds)
 >Storage, for the drill and rods (75 seconds)
 >Study & Guest room for rod and key (40 seconds between them)
 >Machine room (90 seconds)
 >Back hall only for activating the elevator (8 seconds)
 >Elevator, because it is unskippable (37.084 seconds)
 >Prison #1 (north) - Because of hammer & chisel puzzle (77 seconds)
 >Morgue - only until the vaccine is administered (60 seconds?)
 >Choir west & Transept for orb peices (240 seconds)
 >Chancel for the capture (25 seconds)
 >Orb chamber for the end (40 seconds)
Total (generously) estimated time using that glitch ~ 12 mins.
Perhaps it is possible to pick up stuff with the glitch? In that case it is about 3 minutes!

So yeah, totally different category. I might work on it though until I have the money for a new HDD, because I have the hard drive space to record loading screens :).

---

In other news, found a way to break the library in justine!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1Cyw21Tus0

André

2011-08-01 07:11:24 pm

Main Work!!!

lol for Justine it's a bit better than what I expected Tongue

.

Also I think it would be possible to grab item with this, I'll check this later but for the moment nothing must be in the way(nothing interactive(i.e. a door you can move, a chair etc.)) I'll also have to evaluate if the distance matter.

For the moment, I thinks you'll have to use your old entrance hall route(I don't know if mine is faster), also, I found a way to get OOB in the rainy hall and get through it, but it's damn more slow than the usual way, so getting through it normally is just faster, same for Choir. I think we found almost everything to almost go in a straight line from one door to the other everywhere it's possible, I'll check for the Nave and the refineries, Start my speedrun, Optimize, encode and submit. everything should be done in the month, so I'll try to finish before the 1st of september Tongue

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I can't wait for your next segment.

jera

Edit history:

jera: 2011-08-02 04:55:50 am

2011-08-02 04:39:23 am

procrastenating

I don't want to sound like a total noob (I am), but how does that glitch exactly work, I don't understand it fully :-)

André

2011-08-02 05:20:06 am

Main Work!!!

Quote from jera:

I don't want to sound like a total noob (I am), but how does that glitch exactly work, I don't understand it fully :-)

which one:
The one in amnesia: Justine: is a boost by spamming jump in a tight area(between the roof and the bookcase)to force through the roof.
The one with the loading is spamming action(sometime with jump) to succeed opening the target during the loading screen, ATM, nothing interactive must be in the way and we can't grab item with this glitch, also I don't know if the distance matter, for the moment I succeed no matter how far the door was.

jera

2011-08-02 05:35:08 am

procrastenating

I meant the loading screen. So the game lets you interact with a door (aiming at it) when loading the area after save/exit?

André

2011-08-02 05:57:07 am

Main Work!!!

Quote from jera:

I meant the loading screen. So the game lets you interact with a door (aiming at it) when loading the area after save/exit?

Yeah but I thinks it must be press(action) at a precise moment(0.05second) that vary depending on the context.

jera

2011-08-02 08:38:34 am

procrastenating

Nice find :-)

André

Edit history:

André: 2011-08-04 04:41:13 pm

2011-08-04 04:40:25 pm

Main Work!!!

First

Quote from jera:

I meant the loading screen. So the game lets you interact with a door (aiming at it) when loading the area after save/exit?

Not always, it also depend on some factors(which for the moment is unknown to me, if I find them, I'll post them

Second, Apjjm, do you know what trigger the speed in the rainy hall(right when you start), it seem very random and I'm kind of very bored of restarting till I get what I want(3 perfect speed factor in the rainy hall)

Third, I'll do my glitch-less speedrun soon, I try once and then but every times, I'm not satisfied, found that "you could" TRY with a very low% rate to overrun the two monster in the sewer but it'S almost impossible(no damage taken, no route mistake, be VERY Precise in the turns, etc.

Finally, the glitch in my other run are starting to be all friendly ecxept the Entrance Hall and the Nave take too much time IMO but it's still faster than the original route. Once the two will be done, I'll submit those two.

P.S. did you continue with the recording of your speedrun and where are you Wink

.

First
[quote="jera"]I meant the loading screen. So the game lets you interact with a door (aiming at it) when loading the area after save/exit?[/quote]
Not always, it also depend on some factors(which for the moment is unknown to me, if I find them, I'll post them

Second, Apjjm, do you know what trigger the speed in the rainy hall(right when you start), it seem very random and I'm kind of very bored of restarting till I get what I want(3 perfect speed factor in the rainy hall)

Third, I'll do my glitch-less speedrun soon, I try once and then but every times, I'm not satisfied, found that "you could" [u][b]TRY[/b][/u] with a [u][b]very low[/b][/u]% rate to overrun the two monster in the sewer but it'S almost impossible(no damage taken, no route mistake, be VERY Precise in the turns, etc.

Finally, the glitch in my other run are starting to be all friendly ecxept the Entrance Hall and the Nave take too much time IMO but it's still faster than the original route. Once the two will be done, I'll submit those two.

P.S. did you continue with the recording of your speedrun and where are you ;) .

Apjjm

2011-08-05 07:29:24 am

What?

Still haven't done recording, probably will start again in September - I'm quite busy at the moment.

André

2011-08-06 02:20:05 pm

Main Work!!!

Hey, I need your opinion on something.
The definition for Low% and 100% for Amnesia:The Dark Descent, Because it will probably be the game I will run on AGDQ(Seriously Tongue

) and donation would be based on those.
My personal opinion is:
Low%: minimum of everything(basic object absolutely necessary to the progression of the game(Needle, drill parts, rods, machine room key, Hammer and chisel, copper tube and the orb pieces), completing only necessary momento(receive the first one in the Storage), grabbing no note and no journal pages.
100%: collect all Items(except oil potion, Laudanum and Tinderbox), completing every momento, grabbing all notes and journal pages(these one are not cool but I think it's conciderable) with Good ending(Saving Agrippa).

Apjjm

Edit history:

Apjjm: 2011-08-06 03:16:44 pm

Apjjm: 2011-08-06 03:16:13 pm

2011-08-06 03:15:32 pm

What?

If you were doing donation goals, perhaps getting people to chose what ending you get would be better? Then the time difference wouldn't be nearly as big?
If we were to consider the 100% though, I would suggest that the items part isn't necessary - as it wasn't in Justine (you could skip picking up two of the slides IIRC) - just getting all notes & journal stuff, and completing each puzzle would be required (This pretty much means you don't need the bucket and the crank - but everything else is required). You could also set up a donation goal for doing Justine as that can be done reliably in under 5 minutes.

André

2011-08-06 06:57:06 pm

Main Work!!!

Yeah it seem a good Idea. My initial idea was donation for with or without glitch and bad, normal or good ending, so I think I'll stay with this and add the Justine and I'll do the equivalent speedrun(i.e. Normal+good ending=saving everyone and bad ending=saving no one).

Also, for the 100% definition, I though it needed at least all Items because on SDA they say"if there isn't a percentage counter, imagine what the game creator would have think for a 100%", but I agree that your definition is very good"every momento(puzzles), journal pages and notes".

If I do that I personally hope people won't bid for bad ending since I think waiting in the Cells for a couples of minutes is faster than speedrunning everything and wait in the orb chamber but I very unsure of this.

Apjjm

Edit history:

Apjjm: 2011-08-07 08:29:59 am

2011-08-07 08:27:43 am

What?

You have to wait around 7-10 minutes for the prison death, so it is faster (even with doing zimmerman vision map) to get the bad ending normally by letting Alexander through the portal. In phantagaming's run, the whole of chapter 3 took about 5 minutes, and with the new tricks we have - we should be easily faster than this even in a SS.

André

2011-08-07 08:35:25 am

Main Work!!!

Yeah I timed it today and it took me 12 minutes, your right it's faster the normal way(12 minutes is about the half your segmented run does Tongue

). yeah even in a SS, this part is the easiest part of the game, the glitches there aren't hard and usually when i'm there in my speedrun, I'm pretty sure my speedrun will be a success, I think it happen twice I died after the cells(IIRC, the jump in the OOB before the inner sanctum and once in the Inner sanctum because the glitch took me too much time and I didn't notice I miss the switch to close the door).

Apjjm

Edit history:

Apjjm: 2011-08-09 05:05:06 pm

Apjjm: 2011-08-09 05:03:47 pm

Apjjm: 2011-08-09 05:00:27 pm

2011-08-09 04:56:37 pm

What?

I've worked out the cause of the level-transition warp. It should be limited enough to not justify an extra catagory, but we'll see i guess.
All applicable areas (Some loading screens will appear messed up because i used load-map from the dev panel to initially warp to the them):

To understand the glitch, the first thing to consider is how the levels are built. There are several "script areas" added into the maps which represent a variety of things such a triggers. A subset of these areas are "Player_StartArea"s and are used for setting respawn / checkpoint / teleport locations. When a map is loaded from a level transition door (or starting a new game) a StartArea is specified, and that is where you appear to start.

However, that isn't the full story. What actually happens is when the map is loaded, all the areas are loaded in. Then game then looks for which area it should spawn the player at (as defined by the transition between levels), if it fails to find a matching area it will spawn the player at the first StartArea loaded. This is noteworthy, as when loading a save, no target area is defined - the player is teleported to his actual position later on, but initially spawns on the first loaded StartArea.

This glitch becomes exploitable when loading a save via the menu, for some reason the direction the player was facing is set before the position the player was at! This means there is a tiny window where the player is facing the direction as he was before the save, but is actually at the location of one "StartArea"! This is exploited by spamming use and manipulating the direction before the save, to trigger an interact callback on a door somewhere other than where you actually are (assuming the callback isn't ran until the map fully loads?)

The entrance hall is quite an odd case - the start area that is first loaded is "Player_StartArea_1" (as usual in most maps) except, this area is actually by the exit door (I am guessing this is because the commentary states that the initial route plan for the game had the player going from the archives into the water lurker areas (named "Archive_Tunnels") first, which then connected onto the Entrance hall - but this was changed after the areas for map were initially set out). The kicker is that the area you do spawn at has you facing the direction you need to trigger the exit door in the first StartArea.

Another interesting case is "Choir_East" (The choir with the orb peices). This map has the StartArea by the bull as the initial start area for some reason, so this glitch is unexploitable there.

A final note is my definition of "Initial start area" or "first loaded start area". I am basing this off the list that is presented in the dev-panel (see the modding wiki for information on getting this up) of start areas in the "Teleport to start area" list - it seems to be in no alphabetical or sorted order on some maps, so the only conclusion is that the areas are placed in the list in the order they were defined inside the map file. In every map I've tested the first area in this list is area where you are transiently at - so this seems to be a good way to determine nearby objects. This also explains why maps must define a start area in order to load.

I've worked out the cause of the level-transition warp. It should be limited enough to not justify an extra catagory, but we'll see i guess.
All applicable areas (Some loading screens will appear messed up because i used load-map from the dev panel to initially warp to the them):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejdMdY4H1lg

To understand the glitch, the first thing to consider is how the levels are built. There are several "script areas" added into the maps which represent a variety of things such a triggers. A subset of these areas are "Player_StartArea"s and are used for setting respawn / checkpoint / teleport locations. When a map is loaded from a level transition door (or starting a new game) a StartArea is specified, and that is where you [b]appear[/b] to start.

However, that isn't the full story. What actually happens is when the map is loaded, all the areas are loaded in. Then game then looks for which area it should spawn the player at (as defined by the transition between levels), if it fails to find a matching area it will spawn the player at the first StartArea loaded. This is noteworthy, as when loading a save, no target area is defined - the player is teleported to his actual position later on, but initially spawns on the first loaded StartArea.

This glitch becomes exploitable when loading a save via the menu, for some reason the direction the player was facing is set [b]before[/b] the position the player was at! This means there is a tiny window where the player is facing the direction as he was before the save, but is actually at the location of one "StartArea"! This is exploited by spamming use and manipulating the direction before the save, to trigger an interact callback on a door somewhere other than where you actually are (assuming the callback isn't ran until the map fully loads?)

The entrance hall is quite an odd case - the start area that is first loaded is "Player_StartArea_1" (as usual in most maps) except, this area is actually by the exit door (I am guessing this is because the commentary states that the initial route plan for the game had the player going from the archives into the water lurker areas (named "Archive_Tunnels") first, which then connected onto the Entrance hall - but this was changed after the areas for map were initially set out). The kicker is that the area you do spawn at has you facing the direction you need to trigger the exit door in the first StartArea.

Another interesting case is "Choir_East" (The choir with the orb peices). This map has the StartArea by the bull as the initial start area for some reason, so this glitch is unexploitable there.

A final note is my definition of "Initial start area" or "first loaded start area". I am basing this off the list that is presented in the dev-panel (see the modding wiki for information on getting this up) of start areas in the "Teleport to start area" list - it seems to be in no alphabetical or sorted order on some maps, so the only conclusion is that the areas are placed in the list in the order they were defined inside the map file. In every map I've tested the first area in this list is area where you are transiently at - so this seems to be a good way to determine nearby objects. This also explains why maps must define a start area in order to load.

André

2011-08-09 07:22:18 pm

Main Work!!!

Nice, I couldn't have found a better definition, it's nice seeing that someone finally found how the glitch work. I find cool that you exploit it like that since I found it for you(since I can't save and quit). before reading this, I was exploiting things I found "unknown" because when I was in the Entrance of the Cistern, I was trying to open the machine room door to realize that it won't budge, I was asking myself "did I finally found a way to interact with object"(thinking I was interacting with the lever, but I realize I was trying to open prison northern door. So I finally come with a theory that look like yours but less complex. So I don't have to worry about it anymore Tongue

.

So good luck with everything and I can't wait to see the final result.
P.S.:will you restart your run from the beginning or just restart some segment???

Apjjm

2011-08-10 07:44:38 am

What?

These are the segments I plan to redo:

03_entrance_hall : This is a very easy segment!
10_daniels_room : Save after grabbing the key. This shouldn't be too hard either. I will also redo the transition to the study in the back hall too.
11_study : Save after rod to warp
12_storage : Last segment only, after grabbing drill part. The rest of this map is perfect still.
13_machine_room : After fixing the machine
16_cisten_entrance: Last segment only. Use your new skip after the morgue
19_morgue : Use your new route, then a save-warp on the door after vaccine.

I will also attempt to improve:
08_cellar_maze

Most of the maps with the warp in are thankfully maps i was planning on revisiting anyway.

André

2011-08-10 04:19:45 pm

Main Work!!!

I'll recheck your speedrun up to now during this week and tell you a couple of thing you could improve, because I saw some(back hall guest-study was in them) but forget about them so I'll recheck and tell you about this. Aside from this, I saw your Tetris custom Story Tongue

it's nice, you're strong in modding, are you studying in this???

Also, will you reupload these video when your new segments will be done or it will be a surprise for the verification Smiley

.

André

2011-08-13 04:50:29 pm

Main Work!!!

Also saw your preview of katamari amnesia, tell me when it'll be done I'll try it, it also look very nice.

Apjjm

2011-08-13 08:33:22 pm

What?

Quote:

Also, will you reupload these video when your new segments will be done or it will be a surprise for the verification

Will start uploading when I get around to recording. I'll do from the nave -> the prison as one video, then prison -> end then a final video of improved segments. It is unlikely i will start attempting segments until after I have moved my stuff back out - which is mid September. The mod should hopefully be done before then :).

00Svo

2011-08-16 03:31:22 pm

hey guys. i just beat amnesia today. I read your whole thread and am extremely impressed with what you have goin here. i cant wait to see how fast you guys end up doing this! unter 10 minutes maybe? haha

André

Edit history:

André: 2011-08-16 03:54:42 pm

André: 2011-08-16 03:54:37 pm

André: 2011-08-16 03:54:35 pm

2011-08-16 03:53:54 pm

Main Work!!!

Quote from 00Svo:

hey guys. i just beat amnesia today. I read your whole thread and am extremely impressed with what you have goin here. i cant wait to see how fast you guys end up doing this! unter 10 minutes maybe? haha

I don't think so Tongue

, with the glitches we found I thinks apjjm segmented run should be about 20 minutes and my Single segment(like I can't use any save and quit glitches and there is many of them) should hit the 31 minutes and a perfect execution(which won't happen du to a lot of 5% success glitch) could hit the 30 minutes. at least I'm sure we will exploit the game to is maximum when our speedruns will be done.

André

2011-08-16 04:10:06 pm

Main Work!!!

Quote from Apjjm:

Another interesting case is "Choir_East" (The choir with the orb peices). This map has the StartArea by the bull as the initial start area for some reason, so this glitch is unexploitable there.

I think that the reason is that when you die near the bull you'll start near him instead in front of the door, this happen very rarely in the game(like near the dead grunt and the shadow in the sewer).