Would like to speedrun Quake, have a few questions

2009-07-08 05:14:28 am

Invisible avatar

Quote from Idkbutlike2:

The exact opposite of that, picking the settings out on the options menu and keeping them that way forever.

You can use "cvar_savevars 2", then change your settings. They'll stay around (that's for JoeQuake).

Or, stick them in the autoexec.cfg.

Idkbutlike2

2009-07-08 03:56:51 pm

Thanks, dex! So basically, bunny hopping in most other games is like zigzagging in Quake, right?
P.S, how do you toggle a speed meter on in QdQstats (or is it a separate tool?)?

dex

2009-07-08 04:35:33 pm

Invisible avatar

In JoeQuake you can use show_speed 1. There's also a velocity meter in QDQStats under some impulse or other, but I can't recall it right now, and why would you want to use that one anyway? It actually prints, so the messages end in the demo. And there's a lot of messages with that.

Well, no. Zigzagging is ground only, and it's just alternate pressing of two buttons, with some mouse movement if you want to get clever. Most bunnyhop techniques are slightly similar to Quake bunnyhopping (CS bunny is pretty similar in its basic form, though forward tapping and all that jazz is strictly Quake. Likewise for Kay-style bunnies. Warning, that bunnyhopping technique is the hardest one, and it's not really essential for good running anyway).

m1dy

Edit history:

m1dy: 2009-07-09 12:21:30 am

2009-07-08 11:10:34 pm

Hey! I'm getting better! I actually got to 500 speed this time!

http://www.sendspace.com/file/u7sfov (Watch it with show_speed 1 if you can, please :))

I didn't change my sensitivity either, I do have to lift my mouse up though. What do you guys think? My starting jumps are rather terrible (gonna work on those of course) but if you watch the whole thing (it's only one or two minutes long) you'll see me hit 500 speed briefly a few times. Is this good for my low amount of experience and practice?

After watching the demo, you'll notice that I lose speed at certain parts. I've reviewed the demo and due to my little knowledge of Quake's physics and whatnot... I can't exactly see what I'm doing wrong. If you guys could give me some tips on how to improve my bunnyhop and explain why I'm losing speed that'd be splendid.

EDIT: Also I've ran into a bug and I'm not sure what's causing it... sometimes my gun will "jam" and then when I switch to another gun it won't stop firing until I click my fire button again? Really annoying.

EDIT 2: Okay the problem is with the -dinput parameter in my joequake-gl.exe shortcut. Spider-Waffle has the same problem as I do. The polling rate of my mouse is 1000 and I really don't want to lower it as it's very important to me. Unless there's a way to fix it I either have to not use -dinput or lower my mouse's polling rate. Anyone got some advice on this one? Should I just turn -dinput off? How important is it?

Hey! I'm getting better! I actually got to 500 speed this time!

http://www.sendspace.com/file/u7sfov (Watch it with show_speed 1 if you can, please :))

I didn't change my sensitivity either, I do have to lift my mouse up though. What do you guys think? My starting jumps are rather terrible (gonna work on those of course) but if you watch the whole thing (it's only one or two minutes long) you'll see me hit 500 speed briefly a few times. Is this good for my low amount of experience and practice?

After watching the demo, you'll notice that I lose speed at certain parts. I've reviewed the demo and due to my little knowledge of Quake's physics and whatnot... I can't exactly see what I'm doing wrong. If you guys could give me some tips on how to improve my bunnyhop and explain why I'm losing speed that'd be splendid.

EDIT: Also I've ran into a bug and I'm not sure what's causing it... sometimes my gun will "jam" and then when I switch to another gun it won't stop firing until I click my fire button again? Really annoying.

EDIT 2: Okay the problem is with the -dinput parameter in my joequake-gl.exe shortcut. Spider-Waffle has the same problem as I do. The polling rate of my mouse is 1000 and I really don't want to lower it as it's very important to me. Unless there's a way to fix it I either have to not use -dinput or lower my mouse's polling rate. Anyone got some advice on this one? Should I just turn -dinput off? How important is it?

dex

Edit history:

dex: 2009-07-09 05:41:33 am

2009-07-09 05:33:43 am

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I don't use dinput. I'm the third fastest bunnyhopper on 100m. So it's probably not at all important, though it might be necessary depending on your mouse, hardware et cetera. The best choice is to try without -dinput in the shortcut and see how it works. It might be necessary with an USB mouse.

What I found helpful is m_filter 1, though. Also, while this is NOT a necessary tweak, and it's certainly an annoying one, it might help a person's bunnyhop.

The tweak is as such. Turn off always run in the menu (you probably need to use cvar_savevars 1 or cvar_savevars 2 to do that, but it's an useful option anyway... Just backup your main config when you want to fiddle with it, because the changes will be saved!). Then, quit Quake, and put a line "+speed" (without the quotes) in your autoexec.

Right now your sideways walking will change significantly. It's a *VERY* annoying effect for the first few days while you get used to it, but bunnyhopping with +speed and always run off tends to be easier to learn. If you don't want to waste 3 days getting used to that effect, don't change it. I know it made a lot of a difference for my bunnyhopping, and I know it's the same with Bergie (one of the retired runners that did awesome runs).

Also check this thread, there are a few good tips there.

Can't watch the demos right now, sorry, but I'll check them out when I relog to Windows :).

Edit: about the bug. It happens when you restart the level while pressing the fire button. It can happen with the jump button etc.

The reason is that when keeping the button pressed, the fire/jump command is repeated indefinitely. When released, a command to cease that earlier command is sent. However, after a restart the release of the button won't send that command, and that's why you'll keep shooting/jumping. The moment you press the corresponding button again, there will be no new command sent, but the release command *will* turn off the earlier command. Smiley

I don't use dinput. I'm the third fastest bunnyhopper on 100m. So it's probably not at all important, though it might be necessary depending on your mouse, hardware et cetera. The best choice is to try without -dinput in the shortcut and see how it works. It might be necessary with an USB mouse.

What I found helpful is m_filter 1, though. Also, while this is NOT a necessary tweak, and it's certainly an annoying one, it might help a person's bunnyhop.

The tweak is as such. Turn off always run in the menu (you probably need to use cvar_savevars 1 or cvar_savevars 2 to do that, but it's an useful option anyway... Just backup your main config when you want to fiddle with it, because the changes will be saved!). Then, quit Quake, and put a line "+speed" (without the quotes) in your autoexec.

Right now your sideways walking will change significantly. It's a *VERY* annoying effect for the first few days while you get used to it, but bunnyhopping with +speed and always run off tends to be easier to learn. If you don't want to waste 3 days getting used to that effect, don't change it. I know it made a lot of a difference for my bunnyhopping, and I know it's the same with Bergie (one of the retired runners that did awesome runs).

Also check [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,4156.0.html]this thread[/url], there are a few good tips there.

Can't watch the demos right now, sorry, but I'll check them out when I relog to Windows :).

Edit: about the bug. It happens when you restart the level while pressing the fire button. It can happen with the jump button etc.

The reason is that when keeping the button pressed, the fire/jump command is repeated indefinitely. When released, a command to cease that earlier command is sent. However, after a restart the release of the button won't send that command, and that's why you'll keep shooting/jumping. The moment you press the corresponding button again, there will be no new command sent, but the release command *will* turn off the earlier command. :)

Relomy

2009-07-09 07:33:36 am

sv nice

Quote from m1dy:

Hey! I'm getting better! I actually got to 500 speed this time!

http://www.sendspace.com/file/u7sfov (Watch it with show_speed 1 if you can, please :))

I didn't change my sensitivity either, I do have to lift my mouse up though. What do you guys think? My starting jumps are rather terrible (gonna work on those of course) but if you watch the whole thing (it's only one or two minutes long) you'll see me hit 500 speed briefly a few times. Is this good for my low amount of experience and practice?

After watching the demo, you'll notice that I lose speed at certain parts. I've reviewed the demo and due to my little knowledge of Quake's physics and whatnot... I can't exactly see what I'm doing wrong. If you guys could give me some tips on how to improve my bunnyhop and explain why I'm losing speed that'd be splendid.

EDIT: Also I've ran into a bug and I'm not sure what's causing it... sometimes my gun will "jam" and then when I switch to another gun it won't stop firing until I click my fire button again? Really annoying.

EDIT 2: Okay the problem is with the -dinput parameter in my joequake-gl.exe shortcut. Spider-Waffle has the same problem as I do. The polling rate of my mouse is 1000 and I really don't want to lower it as it's very important to me. Unless there's a way to fix it I either have to not use -dinput or lower my mouse's polling rate. Anyone got some advice on this one? Should I just turn -dinput off? How important is it?

I would not recommend "practicing" bunny hoping like that. You get a big boost in speed by strafing around 180 degrees like that.

Here's another dzip of demos that may help or may not. The one with no forward tapping should be about what you should aim for since you definitely shouldn't start with forward tapping until you get the basic style down. The one with "random turns" is demo of why you shouldn't really practice like that.

Like dex, I also don't use -dinput and I use +speed and always run off.

As for your demos, I'd probably have to say the main reason you lose speed is due to lack of forward tapping.. I'm not sure there's a way around it.

[quote="m1dy"]
Hey! I'm getting better! I actually got to 500 speed this time!

http://www.sendspace.com/file/u7sfov (Watch it with show_speed 1 if you can, please :))

I didn't change my sensitivity either, I do have to lift my mouse up though. What do you guys think? My starting jumps are rather terrible (gonna work on those of course) but if you watch the whole thing (it's only one or two minutes long) you'll see me hit 500 speed briefly a few times. Is this good for my low amount of experience and practice?

After watching the demo, you'll notice that I lose speed at certain parts. I've reviewed the demo and due to my little knowledge of Quake's physics and whatnot... I can't exactly see what I'm doing wrong. If you guys could give me some tips on how to improve my bunnyhop and explain why I'm losing speed that'd be splendid.

EDIT: Also I've ran into a bug and I'm not sure what's causing it... sometimes my gun will "jam" and then when I switch to another gun it won't stop firing until I click my fire button again? Really annoying.

EDIT 2: Okay the problem is with the -dinput parameter in my joequake-gl.exe shortcut. Spider-Waffle has the same problem as I do. The polling rate of my mouse is 1000 and I really don't want to lower it as it's very important to me. Unless there's a way to fix it I either have to not use -dinput or lower my mouse's polling rate. Anyone got some advice on this one? Should I just turn -dinput off? How important is it?
[/quote]

I would not recommend "practicing" bunny hoping like that.  You get a big boost in speed by strafing around 180 degrees like that.

[url=http://www.sendspace.com/file/gatkgi]Here[/url]'s another dzip of demos that may help or may not.  The one with no forward tapping should be about what you should aim for since you definitely shouldn't start with forward tapping until you get the basic style down.  The one with "random turns" is demo of why you shouldn't really practice like that.

Like dex, I also don't use -dinput and I use +speed and always run off.

As for your demos, I'd probably have to say the main reason you lose speed is due to lack of forward tapping.. I'm not sure there's a way around it.

Idkbutlike2

Edit history:

Idkbutlike2: 2009-07-09 11:10:22 am

2009-07-09 11:03:02 am

I found Kay's technique to be VERY effective, but you have to be way too damn precise to make it work right (I'm finally getting below 12 seconds even on 72 fps).

Edit: That +speed thing makes strafing way more angled, but it does help you go faster.

m1dy

2009-07-09 12:20:01 pm

@Relomy: The reason I was frequently turning around in the demo wasn't because it gains a lot of speed, but because I use a very low sensitivity so I wanted to get used to picking my mouse up off of my desk a lot while bunnyhopping. 30 minutes or so of doing that helped quite a bit with changing directions in the middle of a run. It was mainly to see if I'm able to keep my momentum without losing it after taking the time to gain it. I still practice bunnyhopping normally like everyone else.

Quote from dex:

Edit: about the bug. It happens when you restart the level while pressing the fire button. It can happen with the jump button etc.

The reason is that when keeping the button pressed, the fire/jump command is repeated indefinitely. When released, a command to cease that earlier command is sent. However, after a restart the release of the button won't send that command, and that's why you'll keep shooting/jumping. The moment you press the corresponding button again, there will be no new command sent, but the release command *will* turn off the earlier command. Smiley

I'm not holding fire when I begin a level. Nothing will be jammed down when I start it the level, it always happens as I'm fighting enemies. I noticed it mostly happens with the grenade launcher. It'll start out by not firing at all and then after I click mouse1 again it'll start spewing grenades out until I press mouse1 again. Sad

@Relomy: The reason I was frequently turning around in the demo wasn't because it gains a lot of speed, but because I use a very low sensitivity so I wanted to get used to picking my mouse up off of my desk a lot while bunnyhopping. 30 minutes or so of doing that helped quite a bit with changing directions in the middle of a run. It was mainly to see if I'm able to keep my momentum without losing it after taking the time to gain it. I still practice bunnyhopping normally like everyone else.

[quote="dex"]Edit: about the bug. It happens when you restart the level while pressing the fire button. It can happen with the jump button etc.

The reason is that when keeping the button pressed, the fire/jump command is repeated indefinitely. When released, a command to cease that earlier command is sent. However, after a restart the release of the button won't send that command, and that's why you'll keep shooting/jumping. The moment you press the corresponding button again, there will be no new command sent, but the release command *will* turn off the earlier command. :)
[/quote]

I'm not holding fire when I begin a level. Nothing will be jammed down when I start it the level, it always happens as I'm fighting enemies. I noticed it mostly happens with the grenade launcher. It'll start out by not firing at all and then after I click mouse1 again it'll start spewing grenades out until I press mouse1 again. :(

dex

2009-07-09 02:34:25 pm

Invisible avatar

Huh. That's weird. That sounds more like an issue with the mouse than anything. Did you try turning -dinput off? I can't recall something like that happening here.

m1dy

2009-07-09 02:51:57 pm

Yeah like I said it's only when -dinput is on, that's why I asked how important it is (What does it do anyways?... other than utilize Direct Input of course).

Spider-Waffle has the same exact problem as me, but we both use a polling rate of 1000, so that's probably it. Lips Sealed

dex

2009-07-09 03:16:57 pm

Invisible avatar

Other than utilize direct input, nothing, at least to my knowledge. It's likely you won't need it at all. Like I said, I don't use it, and it's probably the same with most of the runners. If there are any benefits to using -dinput they are probably negligible, though again, that might all depend on the mouse and other hardware, so I wouldn't like to say that it's definitely useless.

The best idea is to try playing without -dinput. If it feels fine, then you probably won't need it at all.

m1dy

Edit history:

m1dy: 2009-07-09 06:07:48 pm

2009-07-09 05:03:49 pm

Alright.

Well here's my current best, you can definitely see some major improvement: 100m in 12.33611

EDIT: And Here's a YouTube video if you don't want to open Quake.

I'm getting pretty close to being able to sustain 500+ speed.

Cheesy

Relomy

2009-07-09 06:38:51 pm

sv nice

I'd say you are good to go with trying to forward tap. The rest will come after playing for a while. I started with 100m then went to e1m1 and just played those forever.

Idkbutlike2

2009-07-09 09:42:10 pm

Here's a quick demo I did, any pointers for me?

Attachment:

100m.dem

m1dy

2009-07-09 10:08:37 pm

Don't look at the ground. That's a very bad habit and will be detrimental to speedrunning for sure. Lips Sealed

Very smooth though. Smiley

Lag.Com

2009-07-10 02:13:26 am

sda loyalist

Quote from Relomy:

I'd say you are good to go with trying to forward tap.

Seems a bit hasty. He should at least beat my terrible attempt first, surely. Roll Eyes

lolfu_

2009-07-10 02:49:16 am

I have to say I'm hesitant about using 100m as a bunny practice map - it's such an artificial situation and basically just lets you know how fast you can bunny straight forward. How many maps are like that? I'm not saying it is useless - but my recommendation would be to go running actual maps, where your route will twist and turn, not to mention that there will be monsters in your way! That is what speedrunning is about.
And if you do 100% demos, bunnying is not the key (though it helps with shaving off seconds and doing tricks)...

quadrazid

2009-07-10 03:40:43 am

Svart Lyser Tronen

Can someone explain for me why I get 10sec on 100m with EZquake and 13sec using WINquake (or what to call it)

And why do my JOEquake crash when it loads another map, first map is no problem.

dex

2009-07-10 05:57:18 am

Invisible avatar

EZQuake is a qw client. Quakeworld physics are very different, and bunnyhopping becomes a lot easier.

I have no idea about the crashing, which joequake are you using? joequake-gl.exe or joequake.exe?

Stubgaard

2009-07-10 07:20:01 am

Hey Ho Let's Go

Attaching two demos by myself and Mandel. The demos include printed text messages showing when the various keys were pressed and released during the run. Could be helpful to watch closely in slow motion (to get slow motion, type host_framerate 0.005 or something similar at the console before playing the demo).

Attachment:

demos_with_keys.dz

Relomy

2009-07-10 07:40:42 am

sv nice

Quote from lag:

Quote from Relomy:

I'd say you are good to go with trying to forward tap.

Seems a bit hasty. He should at least beat my terrible attempt first, surely. Roll Eyes

I can't break 11.8 without forward tapping.

Quote from lolfu_:

I have to say I'm hesitant about using 100m as a bunny practice map - it's such an artificial situation and basically just lets you know how fast you can bunny straight forward. How many maps are like that? I'm not saying it is useless - but my recommendation would be to go running actual maps, where your route will twist and turn, not to mention that there will be monsters in your way! That is what speedrunning is about.
And if you do 100% demos, bunnying is not the key (though it helps with shaving off seconds and doing tricks)...

I'd still consider it the best map for learning how to bhop.. worked well for me. I know it's pointless to argue against those who think practicing on 100m won't make you better. But I'd say learning how to bunny hop is the first step of learning how to bunny hop around twist and turns.

[quote="lag"]
[quote="Relomy"]
I'd say you are good to go with trying to forward tap.[/quote]
Seems a bit hasty. He should at least beat my terrible attempt first, surely. ::)
[/quote]

I can't break 11.8 without forward tapping.

[quote="lolfu_"]
I have to say I'm hesitant about using 100m as a bunny practice map - it's such an artificial situation and basically just lets you know how fast you can bunny straight forward. How many maps are like that? I'm not saying it is useless - but my recommendation would be to go running actual maps, where your route will twist and turn, not to mention that there will be monsters in your way! That is what speedrunning is about. 
And if you do 100% demos, bunnying is not the key (though it helps with shaving off seconds and doing tricks)...
[/quote]

I'd still consider it the best map for learning how to bhop.. worked well for me.  I know it's pointless to argue against those who think practicing on 100m won't make you better.  But I'd say learning how to bunny hop is the first step of learning how to bunny hop around twist and turns.

TheVoid

2009-07-10 07:47:15 am

What about you Quake guys creating a map for more bunnyhopping practise? You know the ones with corners and little pillars to stand on etc. 100m+ Wink

Idkbutlike2

2009-07-10 09:03:05 am

Quote from quadrazid:

Can someone explain for me why I get 10sec on 100m with EZquake and 13sec using WINquake (or what to call it)

And why do my JOEquake crash when it loads another map, first map is no problem.

Usually that occurs if you have "deathmatch 1" as the setting because by default, a multiplayer game shouldn't have random map switches. For me, it happened when I practiced bhopping on dm3, and tried to switch to 100m, and the program crashed. And speaking of ezQuake, it's because of the framerate and mouse motion differences. With 72 fps, you have to be very exact about using forward taps, but on higher framerates, you don't, and when you do it, it sends you flying (just an expression), while 72 only gives a gradual boost of speed.

Lag.Com

2009-07-10 11:44:41 am

sda loyalist

Quote from Relomy:

I can't break 11.8 without forward tapping.

I've got 11.06 and I don't even bunnyhop correctly

quadrazid

2009-07-10 01:25:24 pm

Svart Lyser Tronen

Quote from dex:

EZQuake is a qw client. Quakeworld physics are very different, and bunnyhopping becomes a lot easier.

I have no idea about the crashing, which joequake are you using? joequake-gl.exe or joequake.exe?

joequake.exe

Quote from Idkbutlike2:

Quote from quadrazid:

Can someone explain for me why I get 10sec on 100m with EZquake and 13sec using WINquake (or what to call it)

And why do my JOEquake crash when it loads another map, first map is no problem.

Usually that occurs if you have "deathmatch 1" as the setting because by default, a multiplayer game shouldn't have random map switches. For me, it happened when I practiced bhopping on dm3, and tried to switch to 100m, and the program crashed. And speaking of ezQuake, it's because of the framerate and mouse motion differences. With 72 fps, you have to be very exact about using forward taps, but on higher framerates, you don't, and when you do it, it sends you flying (just an expression), while 72 only gives a gradual boost of speed.

Okey
But I don't use +forward tapping, And I think 3 seconds is a lot with the same techniqe used.

[quote="dex"]
EZQuake is a qw client. Quakeworld physics are very different, and bunnyhopping becomes a lot easier.

I have no idea about the crashing, which joequake are you using? joequake-gl.exe or joequake.exe?
[/quote]
joequake.exe

[quote="Idkbutlike2"]
[quote="quadrazid"]
Can someone explain for me why I get 10sec on 100m with EZquake and 13sec using WINquake (or what to call it)

And why do my JOEquake crash when it loads another map, first map is no problem.
[/quote]
Usually that occurs if you have "deathmatch 1" as the setting because by default, a multiplayer game shouldn't have random map switches. For me, it happened when I practiced bhopping on dm3, and tried to switch to 100m, and the program crashed. And speaking of ezQuake, it's because of the framerate and mouse motion differences. With 72 fps, you have to be very exact about using forward taps, but on higher framerates, you don't, and when you do it, it sends you flying (just an expression), while 72 only gives a gradual boost of speed.
[/quote]

Okey
But I don't use +forward tapping, And I think 3 seconds is a lot with the same techniqe used.