Wizardry (Rule Discussion)

2008-05-19 06:18:39 pm

Talk to the Hand

This was inspired by the fact that, and you know this if you visit my site at all </subtle plug ;)>, I'm playing through a translated version of Wizardry I-III on the SNES at present. Not that I'm anywhere near being able to actually speedrun a Wizardry game (And I would use the NES version of one of the first two games), but I wanted to throw this topic up and wasn't quite sure where to do it, because there's a more general rules question contained herein.

The typical SDA rule is that a run has to be done "out-of-the-box-style". This is fine. The problem as it applies to the Wizardry games specifically is that the only time the game is truly in its fresh-out-of-the-box state is...fresh out of the box.

I'll explain further. The basic way that Wizardry (Well, 1 to 5 anyway) works is that you have a roster of characters. You can have up to 20 in all, and up to 6 can be in any one party (This makes it possible to very slowly gold farm by creating a character, giving its gold to another character, deleting the character you just robbed, and repeating). Generally speaking, you can switch between these members at will. There's also a store, which exists independently of any characters/party. And here's the problem. The store has a bunch of items that are in infinite supply. In a fresh-out-of-the-box game, however, there are a couple items that are NOT in infinite supply, so when you start with a given set of new characters, depending on what you bought with a previous set, you may not have all the items available to you (Which isn't so bad in the early game, but can get annoying when you can actually afford said items). This works the other way, too: Any items you find in the dungeon can be sold to the store, and they will now be available in at least limited supply for future characters to purchase (Again, not a huge deal early-game, could help a lot later on). So I guess my question at this point is whether the game is even runnable according to SDA rules, and if so, what the restrictions would be as far as store items go.

I'm also curious as to where timing would start. Character creation is not character control, so could I theoretically take as much time as I need to re-roll my stats until I get premium characters/gold farm by pulling the create-rob-delete loop/something else I haven't thought of.

Thread title:

This was inspired by the fact that, and you know this if you visit my site at all </subtle plug ;)>, I'm playing through a translated version of Wizardry I-III on the SNES at present. Not that I'm anywhere near being able to actually speedrun a Wizardry game (And I would use the NES version of one of the first two games), but I wanted to throw this topic up and wasn't quite sure where to do it, because there's a more general rules question contained herein.

The typical SDA rule is that a run has to be done "out-of-the-box-style". This is fine. The problem as it applies to the Wizardry games specifically is that the only time the game is truly in its fresh-out-of-the-box state is...fresh out of the box.

I'll explain further. The basic way that Wizardry (Well, 1 to 5 anyway) works is that you have a roster of characters. You can have up to 20 in all, and up to 6 can be in any one party (This makes it possible to very slowly gold farm by creating a character, giving its gold to another character, deleting the character you just robbed, and repeating). Generally speaking, you can switch between these members at will. There's also a store, which exists independently of any characters/party. And here's the problem.  The store has a bunch of items that are in infinite supply. In a fresh-out-of-the-box game, however, there are a couple items that are [b]NOT[/b] in infinite supply, so when you start with a given set of new characters, depending on what you bought with a previous set, you may not have all the items available to you (Which isn't so bad in the early game, but can get annoying when you can actually afford said items). This works the other way, too: Any items you find in the dungeon can be sold to the store, and they will now be available in at least limited supply for future characters to purchase (Again, not a huge deal early-game, could help a lot later on). So I guess my question at this point is whether the game is even runnable according to SDA rules, and if so, what the restrictions would be as far as store items go.

I'm also curious as to where timing would start. Character creation is not character control, so could I theoretically take as much time as I need to re-roll my stats until I get premium characters/gold farm by pulling the create-rob-delete loop/something else I haven't thought of.

getter77

2008-05-19 07:07:48 pm

100% runs=great to watch

My guess...is it would just fall under the Twinking Clause a la Diablo II and all.

Rolling I'd say might well be a timed dealie, or just figured upon reflective, since the Infinity engine game runs and such all feature blasting through it as fast as possible to their clickery.

I do want to see somebody be through all Wizardry games in enough visual fidelity to see all text as it happens to keep up though...so soldier onwards! 8-)

Emptyeye

2008-05-21 09:07:08 pm

Talk to the Hand

I just talked to Mike on AIM. The summary: I got the go-ahead to do a run on the game sort of "as-is" (It came down to the fact that there's no easy way to completely wipe the store data that I know of, short of replacing the game's battery), and the character creation process does NOT count towards timing (This is important in the creation of the front-line characters especially, as I can now spend time trying to roll a Samurai or two in the front ranks).

getter77

Edit history:

getter77: 2008-05-22 07:14:44 pm

2008-05-22 07:12:52 pm

100% runs=great to watch

Awesome....so long as I can keep up with the action this will be awesome to watch! Best of luck 8-)

Also: To pump yourself up for Wiz 2-4ish, I recommend watching the fansub of the Wizardry OVA. Watching that....made me track down Wiz 8.

Emptyeye

2008-05-25 02:26:15 pm

Talk to the Hand

Well, remember that there really isn't a whole lot of relevant plot per se to the early Wizardries...just a lot of battle text where I'll probably go slowly at first and speed it up after I gain a few levels (And become confident that I can survive battles without having to keep a close eye on my characters).

Incidentally, the SNES Wizardry I-III collection has something that would be REALLY helpful in the pre-timing stages: If you get a bad stat roll, you can simply hit Y and get an instant re-roll of your bonus points. Note that since timing doesn't start until I actually do something with the characters, it's not a huge deal to have to manually almost create the character and then say "No I don't want to keep it" like you have to in the NES versions, but hitting a button to re-roll stats is a lot less inconvenient!

getter77

2008-05-25 03:20:41 pm

100% runs=great to watch

One doesn't watch the Wizardry OVA for the plot...one watches it for the badassery and violence that lives up to the imaginations of those slogging through the less graphic(al) NES/SNES versions. 8-)

Awesome on the stat reroll stuff...game like this for a speedrun you'd probably do well to get idealish stats.

ZenicReverie

2013-03-22 02:05:35 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Wow, has it been this long? I still remembered this topic. I'm not sure if you discovered it Emptyeye, but on the NES Wizardry games, you can reset the data.

Go to the Training Ground. Delete all characters, then select delete again and it'll ask if you want to reset saved data. Select yes, reset console when it says to, and you now have a fresh out of the box game (including the default characters).

In case you don't want to go through that hassle, here's the list of items that start out in Boltac's:

Long Sword 25
Short Sword 15
Anointed Mace 30
Anointed Flail 150
Staff 10
Dagger 5
Small Shield 20
Large Shield 40
Robes 15
Leather Armor 50
Chain Mail 90
Breast Plate 200
Plate Mail 750
Helm 100
Potion of Curing 500
Potion of Neutralizing 300
Blade of Biting 15000
Rod of Iron 3000
Scroll of Sleep 500
Padded Leather 1500
Shiny Chain 1500
Sturdy Plate 1500
Iron Shield 1500
Body Armor 1500
Scroll of Pain 500
Scroll of Fire 500
Studly Staff 2500
Potion of Glass 1500
Gloves of Copper 6000

Wow, has it been this long? I still remembered this topic. I'm not sure if you discovered it Emptyeye, but on the NES Wizardry games, you can reset the data.

Go to the Training Ground. Delete all characters, then select delete again and it'll ask if you want to reset saved data. Select yes, reset console when it says to, and you now have a fresh out of the box game (including the default characters).

In case you don't want to go through that hassle, here's the list of items that start out in Boltac's:

Long Sword		25
Short Sword		15
Anointed Mace		30
Anointed Flail		150
Staff			10
Dagger			5
Small Shield		20
Large Shield		40
Robes			15
Leather Armor		50
Chain Mail		90
Breast Plate		200
Plate Mail		750
Helm			100
Potion of Curing	500
Potion of Neutralizing	300
Blade of Biting		15000
Rod of Iron		3000
Scroll of Sleep		500
Padded Leather		1500
Shiny Chain		1500
Sturdy Plate		1500
Iron Shield		1500
Body Armor		1500
Scroll of Pain		500
Scroll of Fire		500
Studly Staff		2500
Potion of Glass		1500
Gloves of Copper	6000

Emptyeye

2013-03-22 08:22:29 am

Talk to the Hand

Oh wow, very interesting. That's good to know. I had forgotten I had even made this topic, but it's cool that you can get a fresh-out-of-box state on it. I'll have to note that.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

Edit history:

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin: 2013-03-23 10:04:05 am

2013-03-23 10:03:12 am

Learning to Stream

Wizardry is one of my favourite games of all time and my fave series after Might and Magic. Definitely nice to see some love for this game. The catch is, holy crap the randomness!!

But what I can recall... 2 Fighters, Thief, Cleric, Mage, Wizard absolute awesome roster [Fighters obvious, Thief to become a Ninja later... though others can become Ninja's too.. but a Thief is easier], Cleric absolutely needed, Mage absolutely needed and a Wizard for instant identify [Hopefully...] and a double dose of Mage and Cleric.

First while will be rolling hard... because yeah.. you want OPTIMAL characters. Best bonus you can roll is a 23, iirc, but that's rare as hell. Rolling all 14's in Swords and Serpents is easier.

Of course there's the Ultima thing where you can pillage pre-existing characters for monies and items... but honestly I'd hope that could be avoided and let this be truly skill and luck.

There is the usual grinding level 1... up and down the 2 main halls, fight... pray your Thief can actually DISARM the damn trapped chests... then shortly it's to Level 2 to ATTEMPT to decimate Creeping Coins. They have nasty halatosis though... and considering how large a grouping they come in, can spell doom for a party... but at the same point, it's so early in the run, it's a crap shoot. Awesome Experience and Gold though.

Then it's going to the Hidden elevator on Floor 1 in the darkened area and going to Level 4. The really NASTY fight for test of courage and all... [Yeah, definitely want your Mage to be ready to unleash Hell quick and dirty]

Then when you get the Ribbbon.. it's literally grinding Level 4 until you feel you're strong enough... then going to Level 8. This is now where the Holy Shit run begins due to Vampires paralyzing and draining levels and other stuff... but I mean literally 1 fight minimum and you can take the chute down to Level 9, Werdna's level, and POOF! Teleporter to town!

If you survive this point, it's just a matter of grinding hard, praying for Poison Giants [Instant Kill with.. shit.. Makanito was it? Well a Level 5 spell none the less with the Mage] for DISGUSTING experience... awesome weapons] and potetnially somewhere a Helm of Malor [which will allow you to chant Malor a few times and go down to the Chute on Level 8 lickety split]

Of course, changing a Thief into a Ninja is an absolute must if you CAN! Believe me, 10ac to begin sucks, but dear God, when that Ninja is in the saddle and getting levels.. something so reassuring about "Ninja has just decapitated the xxx". ESPECIALLY during the Werdna fight!

And then there's Werdna in general... I have seen Werdna with a single monster once or twice [if I am not recalling poorly].. but usually Werdna comes packing with some serious Greater Demons, Vampires and other "Fuck Me!" enemies in town. Believe me, Werdna can be a run killer no matter the level, if one of the enemies gets lucky against you.

Attached is the guide I wrote a LONG time ago, but should be helpful I hope. I have crappy maps I made as well if desired.

Wizardry is one of my favourite games of all time and my fave series after Might and Magic. Definitely nice to see some love for this game. The catch is, holy crap the randomness!!

But what I can recall... 2 Fighters, Thief, Cleric, Mage, Wizard   absolute awesome roster [Fighters obvious, Thief to become a Ninja later... though others can become Ninja's too.. but a Thief is easier], Cleric absolutely needed, Mage absolutely needed and a Wizard for instant identify [Hopefully...] and a double dose of Mage and Cleric.

First while will be rolling hard... because yeah.. you want OPTIMAL characters. Best bonus you can roll is a 23, iirc, but that's rare as hell. Rolling all 14's in Swords and Serpents is easier.

Of course there's the Ultima thing where you can pillage pre-existing characters for monies and items... but honestly I'd hope that could be avoided and let this be truly skill and luck.

There is the usual grinding level 1... up and down the 2 main halls, fight... pray your Thief can actually DISARM the damn trapped chests... then shortly it's to Level 2 to ATTEMPT to decimate Creeping Coins. They have nasty halatosis though... and considering how large a grouping they come in, can spell doom for a party...  but at the same point, it's so early in the run, it's a crap shoot. Awesome Experience and Gold though.

Then it's going to the Hidden elevator on Floor 1 in the darkened area and going to Level 4. The really NASTY fight for test of courage and all... [Yeah, definitely want your Mage to be ready to unleash Hell quick and dirty]

Then when you get the Ribbbon.. it's literally grinding Level 4 until you feel you're strong enough... then going to Level 8. This is now where the Holy Shit run begins due to Vampires paralyzing and draining levels and other stuff... but I mean literally 1 fight minimum and you can take the chute down to Level 9, Werdna's level, and POOF! Teleporter to town!

If you survive this point, it's just a matter of grinding hard, praying for Poison Giants [Instant Kill with.. shit.. Makanito was it? Well a Level 5 spell none the less with the Mage] for DISGUSTING experience... awesome weapons] and potetnially somewhere a Helm of Malor [which will allow you to chant Malor a few times and go down to the Chute on Level 8 lickety split]

Of course, changing a Thief into a Ninja is an absolute must if you CAN! Believe me, 10ac to begin sucks, but dear God, when that Ninja is in the saddle and getting levels.. something so reassuring about "Ninja has just decapitated the xxx". ESPECIALLY during the Werdna fight!

And then there's Werdna in general... I have seen Werdna with a single monster once or twice [if I am not recalling poorly].. but usually Werdna comes packing with some serious Greater Demons, Vampires and other "Fuck Me!" enemies in town. Believe me, Werdna can be a run killer no matter the level, if one of the enemies gets lucky against you.

Attached is the guide I wrote a LONG time ago, but should be helpful I hope. I have crappy maps I made as well if desired.

Attachment:

Wizardry 1 - Proving Grounds of The Mad Overlord - Solve [3_55l].Txt

Yagamoth

2013-03-23 10:27:51 am

INTJ

I wonder if Wizardry can even be run single segment. I mean, as far as I know of that series (never really played it myself, mind you) it is mostly on save + load reliant, isn't it?

ZenicReverie

2013-03-23 10:42:19 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Yagamoth:

I wonder if Wizardry can even be run single segment. I mean, as far as I know of that series (never really played it myself, mind you) it is mostly on save + load reliant, isn't it?

There's no save / load. The game is constantly saving, so if your party dies, there's no reloading. You're free to retrieve their bodies though.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

Edit history:

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin: 2013-03-23 12:46:51 pm

2013-03-23 12:36:13 pm

Learning to Stream

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Quote from Yagamoth:

I wonder if Wizardry can even be run single segment. I mean, as far as I know of that series (never really played it myself, mind you) it is mostly on save + load reliant, isn't it?

There's no save / load. The game is constantly saving, so if your party dies, there's no reloading. You're free to retrieve their bodies though.

Correction.. you are free to HOPE TO GOD you can retrieve their bodies. Or even resurrect them.... and pray you don't get teleported into stone...

This game CAN be done single segment [Not just because the TAS does this in under a minute or so].... it just gets tedious. Maybe 2-3 hrs to run depending on luck and initial start?

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

2013-03-23 12:45:14 pm

Learning to Stream

Forgive the double post, but this is relevant in its own accord;

Alignment!!

This is one of the BIGGEST bitches in this game.

Neutral has its advantages in regards to well... you can queue with ANYONE... but the disadvantage is class change. Iirc, Ninja's can only be from Evil Alignment.
Been a long time.. but I think even with Dagger of Thieves, it won't let you. I could be wrong... but if not.. ew.

Party of all Good... Party of all Evil? That's fine... except... you have to balance your actions.

Friendly party of Monsters? Evil means you kill those bastards! Good means you MUST leave them be!

If you fail to follow your alignment, you have the chance of 1 or all 6 characters changing alignment [save for Neutral] This means, Good Party attacking a friendly group could change one or all to Evil [Or Evil Party letting them could turn someone into Good]. This can be problematic! I mean sure, you can try and reverse that... but in some cases it could take LOTS of this scenario to return your parties back to the correct alignment.

This also is not only a huge time waster as when you go back to the surface, anyone of the opposite alignment will leave the party and will NOT join you willingly. This wastes even FURTHER time as you need to take a party, drop them at the stairs in the maze, go back to the Inn, get the OTHERS, go to the dungeon and search and pick up the party members.

Oh yeah, did I mention that the enemies can be true assholes and steal EVERYTHING from the party left there... even at the freaking stairs of Level 1 back to town! Yes.. I am serious... you have potential to have EVERY ITEM STOLEN! This holds true for characters who are dead and left in the maze waiting for a pickup. And it gets worse with the whole alignment thing.

x.x;;

Forgive the double post, but this is relevant in its own accord;

Alignment!!

This is one of the BIGGEST bitches in this game.

Neutral has its advantages in regards to well... you can queue with ANYONE... but the disadvantage is class change. Iirc, Ninja's can only be from Evil Alignment.
Been a long time.. but I think even with Dagger of Thieves, it won't let you. I could be wrong... but if not.. ew.

Party of all Good... Party of all Evil? That's fine... except... you have to balance your actions.

Friendly party of Monsters? Evil means you kill those bastards! Good means you MUST leave them be!

If you fail to follow your alignment, you have the chance of 1 or all 6 characters changing alignment [save for Neutral] This means, Good Party attacking a friendly group could change one or all to Evil [Or Evil Party letting them could turn someone into Good]. This can be problematic! I mean sure, you can try and reverse that... but in some cases it could take LOTS of this scenario to return your parties back to the correct alignment.

This also is not only a huge time waster as when you go back to the surface, anyone of the opposite alignment will leave the party and will NOT join you willingly. This wastes even FURTHER time as you need to take a party, drop them at the stairs in the maze, go back to the Inn, get the OTHERS, go to the dungeon and search and pick up the party members.

Oh yeah, did I mention that the enemies can be true assholes and steal EVERYTHING from the party left there... even at the freaking stairs of Level 1 back to town! Yes.. I am serious... you have potential to have EVERY ITEM STOLEN! This holds true for characters who are dead and left in the maze waiting for a pickup. And it gets worse with the whole alignment thing.

x.x;;

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

2013-03-26 10:45:24 pm

Learning to Stream

Alright... even more information. I was in error in my own guide for max bonus amount. Apparently you can get as high as 25 Bonus Points dependent on Race chose. I got 25 Bonus Points for a Gnome I made into my Cleric. VERY nice I may add!

Then comes the big SDA query in regards to resets. Now, if you die in battle, if you hit Reset, it will let you go back to the Maze wherever you last opened the Menu. This takes about 5-6 seconds depending on Menu speed. If it's a forced battle, you will encounter that battle again... so it's not a get out of Jail free card.

The question comes up as, would it be allowable to reset in occasion of Death or Teleporter trap perhaps... or if you roll the dice and deal with what you get.

If it's accepted, would there be a seperate category for a deathless run or would they meld together [as literally it's heavily luck based, so you could in reality get a faster time even dying 9 times.. depending on your luck in Monster Encounter, Treasure Found, Healing requirements]

Got my NES hooked up again and my characters rolled [My Wife shook her head at the fact I was rolling characters...] and found it took me about 10-12 minutes to make an ideal party of 6. [2 Fighters where I lucked out and got 18 bonus back to back, which is insanely lucky, 1 Thief, 1 Cleric, 1 Mage, 1 Wizard]

I figure 15 mins is a good rough time to possibly have to roll for good characters if you're as picky as I am. [Swords and Serpents is way nicer in luck to get 3 14's]

I am going to try and get a split program running on my Laptop [which has a dead wifi card now] and do some attempts and see roughly how long it will take to run the game. Considering this will be warm ups as I haven't played in years, it can only get better.

Alright... even more information. I was in error in my own guide for max bonus amount. Apparently you can get as high as 25 Bonus Points dependent on Race chose. I got 25 Bonus Points for a Gnome I made into my Cleric. VERY nice I may add!

Then comes the big SDA query in regards to resets. Now, if you die in battle, if you hit Reset, it will let you go back to the Maze wherever you last opened the Menu. This takes about 5-6 seconds depending on Menu speed. If it's a forced battle, you will encounter that battle again... so it's not a get out of Jail free card.

The question comes up as, would it be allowable to reset in occasion of Death or Teleporter trap perhaps... or if you roll the dice and deal with what you get.

If it's accepted, would there be a seperate category for a deathless run or would they meld together [as literally it's heavily luck based, so you could in reality get a faster time even dying 9 times.. depending on your luck in Monster Encounter, Treasure Found, Healing requirements]

Got my NES hooked up again and my characters rolled [My Wife shook her head at the fact I was rolling characters...] and found it took me about 10-12 minutes to make an ideal party of 6. [2 Fighters where I lucked out and got 18 bonus back to back, which is insanely lucky, 1 Thief, 1 Cleric, 1 Mage, 1 Wizard]

I figure 15 mins is a good rough time to possibly have to roll for good characters if you're as picky as I am. [Swords and Serpents is way nicer in luck to get 3 14's]

I am going to try and get a split program running on my Laptop [which has a dead wifi card now] and do some attempts and see roughly how long it will take to run the game. Considering this will be warm ups as I haven't played in years, it can only get better.

ZenicReverie

2013-03-26 11:57:05 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Rolling an 18 with Elf or Dwarf can get you a Samurai as well. Higher HP, and Mage spells at level 4 compared to a fighter.

Patashu

2013-03-27 02:30:42 am

@Mr. Kelly R. Flewin: You can run that, it would be 'single segment with resets' instead of 'single segment', I think is the correct terminology.

ZenicReverie

2013-03-27 07:43:32 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Resets to escape bad luck is not a good use of resets.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

2013-03-27 10:26:43 pm

Learning to Stream

Quote from ZenicReverie:

Rolling an 18 with Elf or Dwarf can get you a Samurai as well. Higher HP, and Mage spells at level 4 compared to a fighter.

I was actually going to post about that.. totally forgot last night until I reconsulted the manual and then shook my head at forgetting something so obvious.

Totally worth redoing my rolls just to remedy that. Extra Mage spells are TOTALLY worth it for decimating the game.

And I agree ZR, Not too thrilled by that idea myself... mind you anyone with the guts to pull off a SS, they will rock in my world.

May focus on this tomorrow night or Friday [rare day off]... though I had a dream I got a Helm of Malor off the hop, totally cocky and teleported to the 8th floor, opened the door... then broke the game by being Level 1 and having a Vampire drain me 2 levels and the game just crashed. Was funny as hell mind you!

Reiska

2013-07-31 03:55:31 pm

Reading over this topic: I've done a little SS-with-resets/RTA/whatever you want to call it routing on Wizardry 1 NES myself. I don't think any other category is even remotely sane for the game, since the two boss fights (Blue Ribbon and Werdna) are basically completely RNG-dependent regardless of your level, and they're where the bulk of the resets come from.

It's a pretty simple strat, and could probably be optimized a little more, but I'm not sure how much:

1) Create characters. I'm of the opinion that the starting stat rolls are actually mostly inconsequential, but if SDA timing wouldn't include them you might as well go for it. I think for a speedrun on the NES version (and only the NES version!), the best party to go with is 3 fighters, a cleric, and 2 mages. That's right, no thief - on the NES version, from everything I've found, armor has no effect for the player and basic weapons from Boltac's are sufficient, so there's no need to ever open a treasure chest. The fighters and cleric should definitely be dwarves for the extra vitality (and indeed, you want to put as many of your stat points as you can into vitality); the mages should probably be dwarves too if they get enough points for it (I'm not sure they do, my last run used elves and holy god is their HP awful). Alignment-wise, you're probably best off with neutral on everyone but the cleric, whose alignment can be good or evil, it doesn't matter - the reasons for this in a bit. I don't think going for the advanced classes is worth it since they take longer to level up and their extra abilities aren't going to come into play.

2) Assemble your party, buy weapons at Boltac's. Long swords for the fighters, anointed flail for the cleric. No armor. No weapons for the mages.

3) Enter the maze, equip. Grind to level 3 off the door encounters in the three rooms closest to the stairs. Undead kobold and highwayman fights should be avoided at all costs. If a PC dies, reset (and generally, if it happens twice for me, I just abort the run, but I'll usually accept one). Ambushes by either undead kobolds or highwaymen are generally resets (or dead runs). Did at least one of your mages learn Dilto? If yes, continue. If no, run's over, start again.

4) Grind on Murphy's Ghost until the party hits level 9. You should cast two Diltos on him per fight until the fighters reach level 5, then one Dilto per fight after that (and you can also throw in Morlis in place of Dilto once the mages hit level 7). Murphy's Ghost is not the best exp/time ratio possible; randoms on B4F are potentially faster, but also require you to return to town to recharge HP/MP more often and the time loss from that may outweigh the slower gain from Murphy's Ghost (not to mention they also carry a significant run-killing risk if you get ambushed by breathing enemies). Did at least one of your mages learn Makanito? If yes, continue; if no, run's over, start again. This is where alignment matters; Murphy's Ghost is very frequently a friendly encounter in the NES version, and having an all-neutral party but the cleric allows you to not care.

5) Somewhere in there you may need to collect the keys from B1F and the statues and gold key from B2F. I'm not sure if these are actually necessary since you can get to the elevator by taking the back door from the area around Murphy's Ghost, need to do more research in this regard.

6) Take the elevator to B4F, go to the monster allocation center and fight the Blue Ribbon boss fight. There are a number of ways you can approach this fight. First, the danger level of the opponents: from most dangerous to least dangerous, IMO, they go Mages > Ninja > Clerics > Fighters. One Makanito from one of your mages will always kill the enemy Fighters and Mages, leaving only the Clerics and Ninja to deal with. On your first turn, you will always want one mage to cast Makanito and the other to cast his best damage spell (hopefully Madalto) at the clerics. Having the fighters attack the ninja is faster, while having the fighters attack the mages (in case Makanito fires late) is safer. The clerics and ninja can both instant kill in various ways, and the ninja does high physical damage as well. Win the fight, ignore the treasure, then go get the blue ribbon. Return to town for healing HP/MP. There are lots of ways in which this fight can go sour and force a reset: the clerics hitting you with Montino, your mages dying prematurely, big AoEs of death from the enemy mages, etc.

6) Now take the service elevator to B9F and head for the chute. You want either a friendly encounter or just an easy fight (Master Thieves are a good one) for the forced encounter in the way.

7) On B10F, just gun straight for Werdna. Here's where most of the resets come in - you have a bunch of forced encounters to get through and all but a few of them are unwinnable. The ones you can win are against Frost Giants (Makanito them), Will-o-Wisps (Dilto them repeatedly), Master Thieves (same as on B9F), and the fight with 4 Murphy's Ghosts (though that fight takes a long time to win). Frost Giants are easily the "preferred" encounter.

8) Werdna is all luck, seriously. If he ambushes you, you reset. If he Tiltowaits, you reset. If the Vampire Lord kills your mages or cleric with some AoE spell, you reset. Etc. Or, if you're not allowing resets for bad luck, then your run's over. He does that probably 90% of the time. Ideally, you'll ambush him and he'll spawn with only a single Vampire Lord and Vampire. Surprise round attacks, if you get them, should be focused on the vampire lord. Mages should both unload their biggest nuke (Madalto > Dalto/Lahalito > Mahalito) on the Vampire Lord until he's dead, then the Vampire after that. Cleric should cast either Montino or Badi on Werdna. Yes, Badi can work on him very rarely. You very likely will only get one turn, and at the very most two, to make it stick before you're forced to reset or lose the run. If you go the Montino route, once the vampires are dead, the mages should spam every Dilto they have at Werdna while the fighters wail on him; if you go the Badi route, the battle's over once the vampires are dead.

9) Upon winning the battle, use the amulet and teleport 3 south, 17 west, and 9 up. Go up the stairs. You win.

I ran this route on emulator last night and got an RTA time (including character creation and all the resets) of 1:39:44, and that was with some serious mistakes.

Reading over this topic: I've done a little SS-with-resets/RTA/whatever you want to call it routing on Wizardry 1 NES myself.  I don't think any other category is even remotely sane for the game, since the two boss fights (Blue Ribbon and Werdna) are basically completely RNG-dependent regardless of your level, and they're where the bulk of the resets come from.

It's a pretty simple strat, and could probably be optimized a little more, but I'm not sure how much:

1) Create characters.  I'm of the opinion that the starting stat rolls are actually mostly inconsequential, but if SDA timing wouldn't include them you might as well go for it.  I think for a speedrun on the NES version (and only the NES version!), the best party to go with is 3 fighters, a cleric, and 2 mages.  That's right, no thief - on the NES version, from everything I've found, armor has no effect for the player and basic weapons from Boltac's are sufficient, so there's no need to ever open a treasure chest.  The fighters and cleric should definitely be dwarves for the extra vitality (and indeed, you want to put as many of your stat points as you can into vitality); the mages should probably be dwarves too if they get enough points for it (I'm not sure they do, my last run used elves and holy god is their HP awful).  Alignment-wise, you're probably best off with neutral on everyone but the cleric, whose alignment can be good or evil, it doesn't matter - the reasons for this in a bit.  I don't think going for the advanced classes is worth it since they take longer to level up and their extra abilities aren't going to come into play.

2) Assemble your party, buy weapons at Boltac's.  Long swords for the fighters, anointed flail for the cleric.  No armor.  No weapons for the mages.

3) Enter the maze, equip.  Grind to level 3 off the door encounters in the three rooms closest to the stairs.  Undead kobold and highwayman fights should be avoided at all costs.  If a PC dies, reset (and generally, if it happens twice for me, I just abort the run, but I'll usually accept one).  Ambushes by either undead kobolds or highwaymen are generally resets (or dead runs).  Did at least one of your mages learn Dilto?  If yes, continue.  If no, run's over, start again.

4) Grind on Murphy's Ghost until the party hits level 9.  You should cast two Diltos on him per fight until the fighters reach level 5, then one Dilto per fight after that (and you can also throw in Morlis in place of Dilto once the mages hit level 7).  Murphy's Ghost is not the best exp/time ratio possible; randoms on B4F are potentially faster, but also require you to return to town to recharge HP/MP more often and the time loss from that may outweigh the slower gain from Murphy's Ghost (not to mention they also carry a significant run-killing risk if you get ambushed by breathing enemies).  Did at least one of your mages learn Makanito?  If yes, continue; if no, run's over, start again.  This is where alignment matters; Murphy's Ghost is very frequently a friendly encounter in the NES version, and having an all-neutral party but the cleric allows you to not care.

5) Somewhere in there you may need to collect the keys from B1F and the statues and gold key from B2F.  I'm not sure if these are actually necessary since you can get to the elevator by taking the back door from the area around Murphy's Ghost, need to do more research in this regard.

6) Take the elevator to B4F, go to the monster allocation center and fight the Blue Ribbon boss fight.  There are a number of ways you can approach this fight.  First, the danger level of the opponents: from most dangerous to least dangerous, IMO, they go Mages > Ninja > Clerics > Fighters.  One Makanito from one of your mages will always kill the enemy Fighters and Mages, leaving only the Clerics and Ninja to deal with.  On your first turn, you will always want one mage to cast Makanito and the other to cast his best damage spell (hopefully Madalto) at the clerics.  Having the fighters attack the ninja is faster, while having the fighters attack the mages (in case Makanito fires late) is safer.  The clerics and ninja can both instant kill in various ways, and the ninja does high physical damage as well.  Win the fight, ignore the treasure, then go get the blue ribbon.  Return to town for healing HP/MP.  There are lots of ways in which this fight can go sour and force a reset: the clerics hitting you with Montino, your mages dying prematurely, big AoEs of death from the enemy mages, etc.

6) Now take the service elevator to B9F and head for the chute.  You want either a friendly encounter or just an easy fight (Master Thieves are a good one) for the forced encounter in the way.

7) On B10F, just gun straight for Werdna.  Here's where most of the resets come in - you have a bunch of forced encounters to get through and all but a few of them are unwinnable.  The ones you can win are against Frost Giants (Makanito them), Will-o-Wisps (Dilto them repeatedly), Master Thieves (same as on B9F), and the fight with 4 Murphy's Ghosts (though that fight takes a long time to win).  Frost Giants are easily the "preferred" encounter.

8) Werdna is all luck, seriously.  If he ambushes you, you reset.  If he Tiltowaits, you reset.  If the Vampire Lord kills your mages or cleric with some AoE spell, you reset.  Etc.  Or, if you're not allowing resets for bad luck, then your run's over.  He does that probably 90% of the time.  Ideally, you'll ambush him and he'll spawn with only a single Vampire Lord and Vampire.  Surprise round attacks, if you get them, should be focused on the vampire lord.  Mages should both unload their biggest nuke (Madalto > Dalto/Lahalito > Mahalito) on the Vampire Lord until he's dead, then the Vampire after that.  Cleric should cast either Montino or Badi on Werdna.  Yes, Badi can work on him very rarely.  You very likely will only get one turn, and at the very most two, to make it stick before you're forced to reset or lose the run.  If you go the Montino route, once the vampires are dead, the mages should spam every Dilto they have at Werdna while the fighters wail on him; if you go the Badi route, the battle's over once the vampires are dead.

9) Upon winning the battle, use the amulet and teleport 3 south, 17 west, and 9 up.  Go up the stairs.  You win.

I ran this route on emulator last night and got an RTA time (including character creation and all the resets) of 1:39:44, and that was with some serious mistakes.

presjpolk

2013-07-31 07:20:19 pm

HELLO!

I'd been thinking about running it, wondering just how close to the TAS route is possible What you're saying sounds like what I'd fear. Smiley

Reiska

Edit history:

Reiska: 2013-08-01 01:28:05 am

2013-07-31 07:42:49 pm

If there were some reliable way to manipulate a teleporter into the service elevator, you could skip the Blue Ribbon fight at least (this is one of the TAS' tricks). Obviously you'd probably need actual levels. As for the other things the TAS does:

1) Dagger of Thieves, when invoked, changes a character's class to Ninja without making them meet the requirements for it. This is _great_, if you can get one, but not every monster group on B9F has a chance to drop them, and they're very rare even when you face those groups (in many casual runs, I've only ever gotten one once). The odds of getting the decapitation would be higher than 2% with some levels under your belt, though how much higher I don't know. EDIT: Dagger of Thieves has an internal item ID of 83, contributing to the following drop rates (data from WSC version, may not be 100% accurate to NES):

From Frost Giants, Fire Dragons, High Priests (not the one in the boss fight), High Wizards, Master Thieves, Hatamotos, Vampires, Greater Demons, Poison Giants, and Dragon Zombies: 5%
From Raver Lords, High Masters, Flacks, Arch Mages, Maelifics and Vampire Lords: 10%

2) I forgot about Cleric dispell, and they absolutely should be doing it once Werdna's neutralized, yeah.

EDIT: Some more mechanics I dug up courtesy of Japanese sources and GameFAQs forums. The Japanese source was speaking with regard to the WonderSwan port, but presumably the mechanics are at least roughly similar:

1) Regarding encounters:
a) Random encounters have a 5% chance of occurring every time you take a step or change direction. This increases to 10% when traveling through a door. Random encounters faced in this fashion never drop a chest.
b) "Fixed" encounters happen on the other side of many (but not all) doors. They don't have a 100% chance to happen, though; it's more in the range of 70-90%. These encounters always drop treasure chests, which can contain up to 3 items.
c) "Boss" encounters are completely fixed, happen 100% of the time, and always drop the same treasure. There are three of these: Murphy's Ghost (always drops ~50 gold per PC), the Monster Allocation center boss fight (always drops Rod of Flame, Ring of Death and I think Potion of Latumofis, from a chest with a Teleporter trap), and Werdna (always drops amulet).
d) Encounters are friendly 10% of the time, and your choice of action in a friendly encounter has a 5% chance of changing your alignment if the action taken is contrary to your alignment.

2) Starting stats: In the WSC version, at least, initial bonus points are determined by a d20 roll. That said, the range isn't 1-20; it's 5-9, and the d20 is just used for weighting. If the roll comes up 20, then 10 points are added and you roll again until you get something that isn't a 20. On the NES version, the number of bonus points you can get is capped at 29, whereas some of the later console ports (WSC included) let you theoretically get up to a maximum of 60. (The odds of getting 60 are one in 64 million, by the way.)

3) What stats actually do:
a) Strength: Every point of Strength above 15 adds 1 to the damage of all melee attacks. Also affects hit chances, as demonstrated by the TAS, but the precise mechanics of this aren't given.
b) IQ/Piety: Affects success rates of non-damaging spells of the appropriate discipline and the probability of learning new spells "on time". IQ also affects Wizard's identification success, and Piety affects Cleric's dispell success.
c) Vitality: Increases HP. Also determines resurrection success rates. If a character levels up and loses a point of vitality and this puts his vitality below 3, he dies of old age and is deleted.
d) Agility: Affects turn order in battle, surprise rates, and trap avoidance and possibly trap identification. Thieves have a potential maximum 95% chance to correctly identify traps. For ninjas, this is 90%.
e) Luck: Believed to govern resistance to added effects on attacks (status ailments and level drain).

4) Starting HP is 13-16 for samurai, 8-13 for fighters, 6-11 for priests, 5-7 for thieves, 4-7 for wizards, and 2-5 for mages.

5) HP on levelups: Every time you level up, the game performs this calculation: (Vitality * Level) / 10 + [Level]dX, where dX refers to a die size based on class. X is 8 for fighters, 5 for thieves and wizards, 4 for mages, and 6 for everyone else. If the result is higher than your max HP, the result is your new max HP, otherwise, HP goes up 1.

6) Fighters, samurai, lords, and ninjas get one extra attack per 5 levels. Thieves get one per 8. Other classes get one per 10.

If there were some reliable way to manipulate a teleporter into the service elevator, you could skip the Blue Ribbon fight at least (this is one of the TAS' tricks).  Obviously you'd probably need actual levels.  As for the other things the TAS does:

1) Dagger of Thieves, when invoked, changes a character's class to Ninja without making them meet the requirements for it.  This is _great_, if you can get one, but not every monster group on B9F has a chance to drop them, and they're very rare even when you face those groups (in many casual runs, I've only ever gotten one once).  The odds of getting the decapitation would be higher than 2% with some levels under your belt, though how much higher I don't know.  EDIT: Dagger of Thieves has an internal item ID of 83, contributing to the following drop rates (data from WSC version, may not be 100% accurate to NES):

From Frost Giants, Fire Dragons, High Priests (not the one in the boss fight), High Wizards, Master Thieves, Hatamotos, Vampires, Greater Demons, Poison Giants, and Dragon Zombies: 5%
From Raver Lords, High Masters, Flacks, Arch Mages, Maelifics and Vampire Lords: 10%

2) I forgot about Cleric dispell, and they absolutely should be doing it once Werdna's neutralized, yeah.

EDIT: Some more mechanics I dug up courtesy of Japanese sources and GameFAQs forums.  The Japanese source was speaking with regard to the WonderSwan port, but presumably the mechanics are at least roughly similar:

1) Regarding encounters:
a) Random encounters have a 5% chance of occurring every time you take a step or change direction.  This increases to 10% when traveling through a door.  Random encounters faced in this fashion never drop a chest.
b) "Fixed" encounters happen on the other side of many (but not all) doors.  They don't have a 100% chance to happen, though; it's more in the range of 70-90%.  These encounters always drop treasure chests, which can contain up to 3 items.
c) "Boss" encounters are completely fixed, happen 100% of the time, and always drop the same treasure.  There are three of these: Murphy's Ghost (always drops ~50 gold per PC), the Monster Allocation center boss fight (always drops Rod of Flame, Ring of Death and I think Potion of Latumofis, from a chest with a Teleporter trap), and Werdna (always drops amulet). 
d) Encounters are friendly 10% of the time, and your choice of action in a friendly encounter has a 5% chance of changing your alignment if the action taken is contrary to your alignment.

2) Starting stats: In the WSC version, at least, initial bonus points are determined by a d20 roll.  That said, the range isn't 1-20; it's 5-9, and the d20 is just used for weighting.  If the roll comes up 20, then 10 points are added and you roll again until you get something that isn't a 20.  On the NES version, the number of bonus points you can get is capped at 29, whereas some of the later console ports (WSC included) let you theoretically get up to a maximum of 60.  (The odds of getting 60 are one in 64 million, by the way.)

3) What stats actually do:
a) Strength: Every point of Strength above 15 adds 1 to the damage of all melee attacks.  Also affects hit chances, as demonstrated by the TAS, but the precise mechanics of this aren't given.
b) IQ/Piety: Affects success rates of non-damaging spells of the appropriate discipline and the probability of learning new spells "on time".  IQ also affects Wizard's identification success, and Piety affects Cleric's dispell success.
c) Vitality: Increases HP.  Also determines resurrection success rates.  If a character levels up and loses a point of vitality and this puts his vitality below 3, he dies of old age and is deleted.
d) Agility: Affects turn order in battle, surprise rates, and trap avoidance and possibly trap identification.  Thieves have a potential maximum 95% chance to correctly identify traps.  For ninjas, this is 90%.
e) Luck: Believed to govern resistance to added effects on attacks (status ailments and level drain).

4) Starting HP is 13-16 for samurai, 8-13 for fighters, 6-11 for priests, 5-7 for thieves, 4-7 for wizards, and 2-5 for mages.

5) HP on levelups: Every time you level up, the game performs this calculation: [b](Vitality * Level) / 10 + [Level]dX[/b], where dX refers to a die size based on class.  X is 8 for fighters, 5 for thieves and wizards, 4 for mages, and 6 for everyone else.  If the result is higher than your max HP, the result is your new max HP, otherwise, HP goes up 1.

6) Fighters, samurai, lords, and ninjas get one extra attack per 5 levels.  Thieves get one per 8.  Other classes get one per 10.

Mr. Kelly R. Flewin

2013-08-04 09:34:57 pm

Learning to Stream

Reiska: Thank you so much for all this information! This is absolutely incredible! [I've nailed 25's and 1 29 before... seeing the WSC rates makes me wanna buy a WSC just for that, though I know it will be a bitch to read Japanese if it's a Japan only release.]

Definitely makes me more and more interested to practice this.

Reiska

Edit history:

Reiska: 2013-08-07 03:33:36 pm

2013-08-07 03:32:46 pm

WSC version is Japan-only, but I *think* it has English text options like most of the console ports of the first 5 Wizardry games.

Oh, and one little addendum: encounters on B10F can never be friendly.

jimmypoopins

Edit history:

jimmypoopins: 2015-02-01 07:11:15 pm

2015-02-01 07:10:52 pm

I'm not sure if this post deserves a new thread or not, but I wanted to elaborate on the above, and I encourage anyone who is interested to play this game.

I got a 50:22 (without character creation) after several completed attempts (link here: http://www.twitch.tv/jimmypoopins/c/4593026). The route I used in this run is identical to Reiskas, with the change that I buy a blade of biting before going to fight Werdna (you will have enough moeny). Unfortunately If forget to equip it, and also that I use katino on Murphy's ghosts, since the fighters do a lot more damage when he's asleep. It gets resisted a lot but it's definitely worth it.

I did find two new route improvements yesterday, which inspired me to post it here. The first is to make the mages into elves, and to distribute stats differently. The reason is that high agility for mages makes them act faster, which is very important for mages. Mostly you just want them to act more quickly than the fighters, since you want katino/dilto to fire off before the fighters to actually attack. This is especially important with katino, since the enemies will often wake up. So if your fighters attack, then the mages cast katino, then the enemy wakes up, it's totally useless. On the other hand if katino fires first, then you get 3 hits on a sleeping monster before it wakes up.

As for optimal stat investment, I really don't know. As discussed above the HP is absolutely miserable if you don't dump any points into vitality for an elf (I had mid 20's hp I think at level 9). You want enough agility so that the mages consistently go before the fighters, but you also want a lot of vitality. In a SDA run I probably wouldn't accept anything less than a 19 for mages, and I'd almost consider going for the double critical roll to get in the 20's, though that may be asking too much.

Another comment about this is to dump your fighter stats into something other than agility for this reason. I really wish I knew exactly what luck did, but I put it in there. If anyone has concrete evidence as to what luck does I would greatly appreciate it.

The other route change is to go straight to Murphy's ghost rather than fighting junk at the doors to get to level 3. Don't go back to level up after getting enough xp for level 2. Cast katino with one mage per fight, so they don't potentially overlap and so that if they do hit they get the maximum potential duration. You will still run out of katino's before you get enough xp for level 3. Heal with dios, and you'll always get enough xp before you run out of hp.

I tested this change and I was very close to my gold level 3 split (I got like 3:30, where the gold split was 3:00 which is absurd - my pb had a 5:00 split). A second attempt gave me an even lower time. I am very confident that this is a better route. Unfortunately it's a little bit more boring, but if you do attempts you'll see how inconsistent the level 1-3 split is with the current route.

A quick comment on character creation that I'm not sure was mentioned: build the characters in order fighter fighter fighter cleric mage mage. If you do them out of order (say you got a 25+ so you wanted to make the mage first) then you are screwing yourself later, since when you load an out party it will place the characters in the party in the order in which they were created, not in the order in which they were placed in the initial party. This is very important since you reset so many times in the last area.

I encourage anyone somewhat interested to try this. It's actually a lot of fun. The music is quite good, and the menuing for Murphy's ghost is entertaining enough to not make it too boring. Plus you only spend ~30 minutes grinding him, and the last half of the run is very intense. Unfortunately there is a ton of RNG, but it's still a lot of fun to play.

If anyone has questions I will be happy to answer! PM or post.

I'm not sure if this post deserves a new thread or not, but I wanted to elaborate on the above, and I encourage anyone who is interested to play this game.

I got a 50:22 (without character creation) after several completed attempts (link here: http://www.twitch.tv/jimmypoopins/c/4593026).  The route I used in this run is identical to Reiskas, with the change that I buy a blade of biting before going to fight Werdna (you will have enough moeny).  Unfortunately If forget to equip it, and also that I use katino on Murphy's ghosts, since the fighters do a lot more damage when he's asleep.  It gets resisted a lot but it's definitely worth it.

I did find two new route improvements yesterday, which inspired me to post it here.  The first is to make the mages into elves, and to distribute stats differently.  The reason is that high agility for mages makes them act faster, which is very important for mages.  Mostly you just want them to act more quickly than the fighters, since you want katino/dilto to fire off before the fighters to actually attack.  This is especially important with katino, since the enemies will often wake up.  So if your fighters attack, then the mages cast katino, then the enemy wakes up, it's totally useless.  On the other hand if katino fires first, then you get 3 hits on a sleeping monster before it wakes up.

As for optimal stat investment, I really don't know.  As discussed above the HP is absolutely miserable if you don't dump any points into vitality for an elf (I had mid 20's hp I think at level 9).  You want enough agility so that the mages consistently go before the fighters, but you also want a lot of vitality.  In a SDA run I probably wouldn't accept anything less than a 19 for mages, and I'd almost consider going for the double critical roll to get in the 20's, though that may be asking too much.

Another comment about this is to dump your fighter stats into something other than agility for this reason.  I really wish I knew exactly what luck did, but I put it in there.  If anyone has concrete evidence as to what luck does I would greatly appreciate it.

The other route change is to go straight to Murphy's ghost rather than fighting junk at the doors to get to level 3.  Don't go back to level up after getting enough xp for level 2.  Cast katino with one mage per fight, so they don't potentially overlap and so that if they do hit they get the maximum potential duration.  You will still run out of katino's before you get enough xp for level 3.  Heal with dios, and you'll always get enough xp before you run out of hp.

I tested this change and I was very close to my gold level 3 split (I got like 3:30, where the gold split was 3:00 which is absurd - my pb had a 5:00 split).  A second attempt gave me an even lower time.  I am very confident that this is a better route.  Unfortunately it's a little bit more boring, but if you do attempts you'll see how inconsistent the level 1-3 split is with the current route.

A quick comment on character creation that I'm not sure was mentioned: build the characters in order fighter fighter fighter cleric mage mage.  If you do them out of order (say you got a 25+ so you wanted to make the mage first) then you are screwing yourself later, since when you load an out party it will place the characters in the party in the order in which they were created, not in the order in which they were placed in the initial party.  This is very important since you reset so many times in the last area.

I encourage anyone somewhat interested to try this.  It's actually a lot of fun.  The music is quite good, and the menuing for Murphy's ghost is entertaining enough to not make it too boring.  Plus you only spend ~30 minutes grinding him, and the last half of the run is very intense.  Unfortunately there is a ton of RNG, but it's still a lot of fun to play.

If anyone has questions I will be happy to answer!  PM or post.

Lag.Com

Edit history:

Lag.Com: 2015-02-02 04:14:29 am

2015-02-02 02:01:42 am

sda loyalist

Excellent to see the old classics getting attention like this! Especially because of their reputation for difficulty. I'll watch your run in a sec.

Edit: That was pretty amazing... I guess we'll never see a Single Segment run, huh :p