Turok 2 hard mode speed run

2013-07-20 01:51:40 am

Quote from Bismuth:

As for individual levels, I believe the best would be to have saves that are done exactly after the level cutscene, like I did in my DM and RoS segmented runs. The rules would be that it is forbidden to have weapons from "later" levels, basically to have anything that you shouldn't have at this point in the game (for example torpedo launcher in River of Souls). Basically, what I did for my saves was that I did a run of PoA, I saved after entering DM, I did a segmented run of DM, I saved after entering RoS, then I did a segmented run of RoS.

It would also be possible to warp to the individual levels right from the start of the game – in other words, you start each level with only the talon, bow, flare gun and three lives. This does not seem to be a huge problem, as new weapons are found along the way and usually not so much time is wasted by killing enemies. Drawbacks would be that it requires cheating (the level warp cheat) in the first place and it's certainly not the fastest it can be (imagine destroying the force fields in the Hive with a plasma rifle).

The logic of the new level order sounds right, some testing would be nice. I like the unorthodoxy of it. :-) I think it would be interesting to see how much of a benefit a firestorm cannon or missile launcher would be in River of Souls.

[quote="Bismuth"]
As for individual levels, I believe the best would be to have saves that are done exactly after the level cutscene, like I did in my DM and RoS segmented runs. The rules would be that it is forbidden to have weapons from "later" levels, basically to have anything that you shouldn't have at this point in the game (for example torpedo launcher in River of Souls). Basically, what I did for my saves was that I did a run of PoA, I saved after entering DM, I did a segmented run of DM, I saved after entering RoS, then I did a segmented run of RoS.[/quote]

It would also be possible to warp to the individual levels right from the start of the game – in other words, you start each level with only the talon, bow, flare gun and three lives. This does not seem to be a huge problem, as new weapons are found along the way and usually not so much time is wasted by killing enemies. Drawbacks would be that it requires cheating (the level warp cheat) in the first place and it's certainly not the fastest it can be (imagine destroying the force fields in the Hive with a plasma rifle).

The logic of the new level order sounds right, some testing would be nice. I like the unorthodoxy of it. :-) I think it would be interesting to see how much of a benefit a firestorm cannon or missile launcher would be in River of Souls.

Bismuth

Edit history:

Bismuth: 2013-07-22 02:08:05 am

Bismuth: 2013-07-21 10:03:18 am

Bismuth: 2013-07-21 10:02:48 am

2013-07-21 10:02:39 am

Worthless categories WR master

A firestorm cannon against the sisters of despair? I'm interested already. I will try this route today probably, check out my stream this afternoon.

Veritate I thought of it too but I think that the "cheating" part is irrelevant, as it is used to warp directly to the level and not to actually cheat. What really bothers me though is the fact that you start out levels with nothing. Especially the Hive, like you said.

Squeebles

2013-08-14 02:46:45 pm

Well if you're really all that interested in using high grade weapons in RoS I already figured out as tactic for that earlier in the planning that went into Gigan's run- He just didn't find it consistent enough or think it would be worth the time. At the last armory in DM there's a tile for the Eye of Truth talisman which leads across over a tree. You can glitch climb that bridge by starting on the downhill side- Jumping forward into the broken end of the invisible bridge- Rapidly jumping a few times diagonal right/forward to get stuck in it- Then aiming your view just barely over the center of the bridge(so you don't jump over the other side of the bridge and fall off) and rapidly jumping straight forward until you glitch climb up and over the bridge to follow it across. One cage near you holds the Firestorm Cannon/Flamethrower/Charge Dart, the next cage across has the Grenade Launcher/PFM Layer, and the cage at the bottom has the Scorpion Missile Launcher.

Bismuth

2013-08-19 10:09:18 am

Worthless categories WR master

I knew about that trick already Squeebles, but there is no way stopping to get those weapons will be actually helpful. I really like the idea of having Firestorm cannon in River of Souls but only if it would cost no time to do so, because it doesn't mean a big time save, it only gives more stability and consistency on fighting the sisters of despair.

Squeebles

2013-08-19 11:05:22 am

Understood then.

Bismuth

Edit history:

Bismuth: 2013-09-26 01:48:50 am

Bismuth: 2013-09-26 01:48:43 am

Bismuth: 2013-09-26 01:04:51 am

2013-09-26 01:04:16 am

Worthless categories WR master

I'm digging this thread up, there's something I found a long time ago (I think it was back when I was doing my segmented river of souls run) and I thought it was irrelevant, but now I felt like sharing it. In the last area of RoS, the one with the Primagen key, the feather, the talisman portal, the totem defense portal, the last soul gate, the warp to the last graveyard, etc., you can get from the talisman portal/primagen key area to the higher ground where the portal to the graveyard is by spamming jump in the corner of the walls there. Unfortunately, it would skip mission objectives, and the monsters are not there so neither are the triggers on the doors. Now I'm thinking, did I try going into the last graveyard and warping back to see if the monsters are there? That would require testing.

All in all I would guess the route could become more like this: get primagen key, get water boost, activate the switch to open the last corridor, open the talisman portal, go back there and glitch-jump your way up, and then two things.
1. Do the graveyard, come back with monsters spawned, get the feather, get the soul gate, come back into the talisman portal.
2. This is more far-fetched. Imagine you can do the same kind of jump, up do get directly to the rooms by the soul gate. Open the doors, get the gate, come back down, enter graveyard, come back, get the feather and head to the talisman portal.

The first possibility seems quite slow, I would be very surprised if it turned out faster than the current route. Remember, water boost gets lost very early in that route, and all the soul gate segment would be without it. The second one, while interesting, is impossible, 99.9% sure. And all of this is assuming monsters/triggers do spawn if you go to the graveyard, and for the second one, that the monsters near the soul gate would be spawned so you can open the doors.

Edit: alright, here's my take on it

I'm digging this thread up, there's something I found a long time ago (I think it was back when I was doing my segmented river of souls run) and I thought it was irrelevant, but now I felt like sharing it. In the last area of RoS, the one with the Primagen key, the feather, the talisman portal, the totem defense portal, the last soul gate, the warp to the last graveyard, etc., you can get from the talisman portal/primagen key area to the higher ground where the portal to the graveyard is by spamming jump in the corner of the walls there. Unfortunately, it would skip mission objectives, and the monsters are not there so neither are the triggers on the doors. Now I'm thinking, did I try going into the last graveyard and warping back to see if the monsters are there? That would require testing.

All in all I would guess the route could become more like this: get primagen key, get water boost, activate the switch to open the last corridor, open the talisman portal, go back there and glitch-jump your way up, and then two things. 
1. Do the graveyard, come back with monsters spawned, get the feather, get the soul gate, come back into the talisman portal. 
2. This is more far-fetched. Imagine you can do the same kind of jump, up do get directly to the rooms by the soul gate. Open the doors, get the gate, come back down, enter graveyard, come back, get the feather and head to the talisman portal.

The first possibility seems quite slow, I would be very surprised if it turned out faster than the current route. Remember, water boost gets lost very early in that route, and all the soul gate segment would be without it. The second one, while interesting, is impossible, 99.9% sure. And all of this is assuming monsters/triggers do spawn if you go to the graveyard, and for the second one, that the monsters near the soul gate would be spawned so you can open the doors.

Edit: alright, here's my take on it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD27u91rJw8

giganotabehemoth87

2013-10-02 04:49:55 am

It's a shame the trick doesn't pay off as we would like. Having said that the first time i got up there for some reason the Dinosoid that stands in front of the eagle feather door was there but not the other two. So the soul gate trek couldn't be done. Since then i have been getting up there and there's no Dinosoids at all... I also agree that it looks nearly impossible to find any way to scale the big wall. I thought of doing a diagonal water boost speed jump from the graveyard portal to the huge arch supports (there's like a little gap which Turok could potentially stand on), from there another easy jump could be done to the ledge. But this proved to be useless as well. I really hate the invisible boundaries they put in this game.

Bismuth

2013-10-02 05:32:35 pm

Worthless categories WR master

Yeah, they put a lot of boundaries and that kills a lot of skips. In Port of Adia, it's pretty crazy how little you can do off the main path due to invisible walls and fake bridges. Remember how you can't do any skip at the last child, and how just a small miscalculation and you go down at the very beginning on the bridge with the first endtrail that triggers opening the wall. Try to cut a corner and the whole thing becomes fake and you fall to your demise. Same goes for the little bridge to the switch that opens the room for the other switch that opens the first soul gate in RoS, you can't cut corners or you'll end up falling through. It is indeed such a shame.

giganotabehemoth87

2013-10-03 04:30:58 pm

Ok it's worth mentioning a little time saver here which i failed to spot in my level 5 run, hah and we thought it was optimal. Full credit of this goes F2FRONT500 (youtube name).

At the second generator near the second key. After you destroy the generator, instead of waiting for the lift to go up to the tunnels with the mites, simply run back and death warp, and then walk along to the area with the key. It's around 10 - 15 seconds faster !.

Squeebles

2013-10-04 08:46:02 am

Interesting one Gigan, I had tried that once or twice but I could never figure what the actual effect on time was. Also on a note related to invisible boundaries, the last thing I had tried to figure out before giving up was some theoretical idea for a P-key skip in level 3. There's a building that goes out to the corner where the gate is in the toxic water but I've had no luck reaching it; At the guard tower before the first wide bridge(that leads down to the mud) You can climb up and then go to either corner of the area where there's a rock and a 10 green shell pickup- There you can sorta catch on some half-built surfaces between the inside and outside of that wall by jumping diagonally into them(leaning slightly towards the outside of the wall) but a little more than halfway across there's an invisible barrier on either side that stops any further progress. Maybe with tool assistance there could be some loophole found but I haven't had any luck on my end.

Bismuth

Edit history:

Bismuth: 2013-10-06 04:44:20 pm

2013-10-06 03:46:35 pm

Worthless categories WR master

I wish I could still run this game... It's not the interest that's lacking, it's just that with university and other life events, plus I've been more involved in getting good DK64 101% times, and now my practice for AGDQ is gonna start on Minecraft. I suggested this game for Bad Games Done Quick in March-April (I don't remember the dates) though so at one point or another I'm getting back on Turok. I haven't quit, I just moved on to other things for about a year!

Edit: I recognize it doesn't fit that well in Bad Games Done Quick but it was suggested that games that don't make the cut for a GDQ could be good candidates. While some like me believe that Turok 2 was one of the best shooters of its time, a lot more would say that the game was nearly unplayable on N64 (which is true, I must admit) and the level design was uninspired, too dark, repetitive and confusing. I agree to some extent, but then again there are a lot of things that Acclaim did so well in that game, like creating an unsettling atmosphere, having varied enemy AI that can fight each other, and essentially creating an adventure FPS that lasts for dozens of hours. But hey, maybe Brossentia will just be happy to have more games to the schedule!

I wish I could still run this game... It's not the interest that's lacking, it's just that with university and other life events, plus I've been more involved in getting good DK64 101% times, and now my practice for AGDQ is gonna start on Minecraft. I suggested this game for Bad Games Done Quick in March-April (I don't remember the dates) though so at one point or another I'm getting back on Turok. I haven't quit, I just moved on to other things for about a year!

Edit: I recognize it doesn't fit that well in Bad Games Done Quick but it was suggested that games that don't make the cut for a GDQ could be good candidates. While some like me believe that Turok 2 was one of the best shooters of its time, a lot more would say that the game was nearly unplayable on N64 (which is true, I must admit) and the level design was uninspired, too dark, repetitive and confusing. I agree to some extent, but then again there are a lot of things that Acclaim did so well in that game, like creating an unsettling atmosphere, having varied enemy AI that can fight each other, and essentially creating an adventure FPS that lasts for dozens of hours. But hey, maybe Brossentia will just be happy to have more games to the schedule!

Squeebles

2013-10-07 11:59:36 am

I could enjoy watching it either way, and I wish you the best of luck on your DK64 running efforts in the meantime Bismuth -vrosses fingers-

Bismuth

2013-10-07 12:02:34 pm

Worthless categories WR master

Sadly though, even DK64 is on hold right now, my last run was a 7:25 (WR is 6:41) but now I'm barely even running anything Sad

Bismuth

2013-10-13 05:40:04 am

Worthless categories WR master

Today I did a SM64 stream (new 70 star PB!) followed by a tiny bit of Turok 2, but first, this happened... http://www.twitch.tv/bismuth9/c/3076751
Overhead item glitch in pitch black, get on my level.

Squeebles

2013-10-18 08:59:30 am

Man, that is one hell of a difficult glitch ^o^;

Bismuth

2014-01-23 08:22:38 am

Worthless categories WR master

Hey guys, it's been quite a while but here I am announcing that I am going back to Turok 2. I will finish that SS speedrun and start grinding some runs. I'll be doing some heavy derusting/relearning tonight (hopefully) and you should see me start heavily posting in this thread again shortly. I've been wanting to come back to Turok 2 but what really sparked my motivation for it was talking for a good 20 minutes with Weatherton about it at AGDQ2014. Hopefully I will finally get to learn Primagen's Lightship and start doing runs. Goal time: sub-1:55 Cheesy

Bismuth

2014-01-27 05:21:50 pm

Worthless categories WR master

I expected ultra-mega-rust and I still ended up with a sub-47 time on first 3 missions. I lost most of my time on blue feather skip in death marshes, and not getting some key water boosts.

giganotabehemoth87

2014-01-27 06:19:00 pm

Nice. will be good to see this game get some action again.

Are you doing first 3 level runs again or do you mean full game runs ?. if the latter, have you found out why the game does that horrible permanent death fall glitch yet on the Hive ?

Bismuth

2014-01-28 03:47:34 am

Worthless categories WR master

No, I haven't. I just remembered that glitch and I'm slowly remembering why I never went for full game runs. I wanna do them now, at the very least get a semi-ok time (like 2:10 maybe, that would mean about 6 minutes slower than your run on each of the three last levels). If I find the time for it I will probably do one run of the hive this week but first I need to grind that primagen key early trick again, I tried about 15 times yesterday and didn't get it once.

Behemoth

2014-01-28 06:42:22 am

Might be worth just not doing death abuse on the Hive, except when it's actually unavoidable, Like the P-key area itself when you return from picking up the key (unless there's a way to get back without falling, I can't remember now). Of course it would be even better if you can do that trick in one shot but that's a crazy hard proposition at this point. Reducing the death abuse could sustain the run at the cost of probably a couple of minutes. Then when you feel happy about the run perhaps start introducing a few more and see how the game handles it. Maybe there will be a cut off point from no glitching occurring to the glitch rearing it's ugly head again. With that knowledge you can then start deciding which are the most useful death falls and which are the least best and then omit the least best ones.

Bismuth

Edit history:

Bismuth: 2014-01-29 06:47:20 am

Bismuth: 2014-01-29 06:42:07 am

2014-01-29 06:41:15 am

Worthless categories WR master

There is one way to get back without falling actually, the only "essential" one is on the feather, it would require activating stuff and waiting for elevators and I don't want that.

Bismuth

Edit history:

Bismuth: 2014-02-14 12:20:58 am

2014-02-14 12:07:41 am

Worthless categories WR master

I have bad news for segmented speedrunning of this game.

The transition times are counted in the game time, therefore every segment will add 68 frames (2.267 seconds) to the game time. It's kind of shitty but I will deal with it and calculate an RTA equivalent by perfectly cropping saves like I did in test runs of segmented ILs. I will be recording segments and timing them precisely using virtual dub, and I'm holding an excel spreadsheet that compares runs. My first segment of Port of Adia (first area) had a time of 0:30 and for the second segment (second area, first child) I spent a good 2 hours on it and ended up with a 1:36. For comparison, I had 1:37 in a test run where I combined those two segments together, so this run is already probably about 3.5 seconds faster.

I had a lot of 1:37s and timed them all by counting the frames where I had control. My first 1:37 was 1998 frames or 66.60 seconds. I eventually did 66.30, 66.20, 66.17, 65.73, 65.70 and 65.67. That means my 65.67 was at worst a 1:37.03. I also timed two 1:36 runs where I left the cage too early and did not rescue the child; I had one 65.53 and one 65.43. When I finally got the 1:36 I timed it at 65.20, so it was a great one.

It's sad that each segment adds 68 frames (± a few), but since I care more about the run itself than the game time, I'll do as many segments as necessary and I'll use that timing method to establish the best times I do. The game time will probably be roughly 20-35 seconds slower per level than a SS would have had with the same time, but a faster run is a faster run, no matter what the game time says, in my opinion.

In RTA timing, starting from the "Start game" input in the menu, which is what I think we should use as a start point (I used to use gaining control as a start point but it's not very good), until the first completely blue frame after the second segment, I have 1:38.20. There's only a 2-second difference in the starting points, yet my best RTAs at this point are generally high 1:33-low 1:34. This means it is pretty clear that the game runs faster when you don't set it to 30 FPS, unless somehow I am 2 seconds faster when I play this game single-segment than when I try to optimize my play as much as possible.

I have bad news for segmented speedrunning of this game.

The transition times are counted in the game time, therefore every segment will add 68 frames (2.267 seconds) to the game time. It's kind of shitty but I will deal with it and calculate an RTA equivalent by perfectly cropping saves like I did in test runs of segmented ILs. I will be recording segments and timing them precisely using virtual dub, and I'm holding an excel spreadsheet that compares runs. My first segment of Port of Adia (first area) had a time of 0:30 and for the second segment (second area, first child) I spent a good 2 hours on it and ended up with a 1:36. For comparison, I had 1:37 in a test run where I combined those two segments together, so this run is already probably about 3.5 seconds faster.

I had a lot of 1:37s and timed them all by counting the frames where I had control. My first 1:37 was 1998 frames or 66.60 seconds. I eventually did 66.30, 66.20, 66.17, 65.73, 65.70 and 65.67. That means my 65.67 was at worst a 1:37.03. I also timed two 1:36 runs where I left the cage too early and did not rescue the child; I had one 65.53 and one 65.43. When I finally got the 1:36 I timed it at 65.20, so it was a great one.

It's sad that each segment adds 68 frames (± a few), but since I care more about the run itself than the game time, I'll do as many segments as necessary and I'll use that timing method to establish the best times I do. The game time will probably be roughly 20-35 seconds slower per level than a SS would have had with the same time, but a faster run is a faster run, no matter what the game time says, in my opinion.

In RTA timing, starting from the "Start game" input in the menu, which is what I think we should use as a start point (I used to use gaining control as a start point but it's not very good), until the first completely blue frame after the second segment, I have 1:38.20. There's only a 2-second difference in the starting points, yet my best RTAs at this point are generally high 1:33-low 1:34. This means it is pretty clear that the game runs faster when you don't set it to 30 FPS, unless somehow I am 2 seconds faster when I play this game single-segment than when I try to optimize my play as much as possible.

Bismuth

Edit history:

Bismuth: 2014-02-14 06:27:28 pm

2014-02-14 06:15:35 pm

Worthless categories WR master

So, like I said, I am working on a segmented run. This time, I'd like to hope that I actually go all the way through the game without losing bits of the run and/or having soundless recordings or other errors. So far I am satisfied with how it's going, though I let in a few tiny mistakes for the sake of my own sanity. Generally, if a segment has a mistake, the rest of it was also abnormally fast so in the end it was still strong.

giganotabehemoth87

2014-02-17 11:12:05 am

By segments are counted do you mean the blue screen phase. If so I kinda figured it did that anyway. Or do you mean a bit extra ?

Yeah start game imput sounds like a good idea. Many games do this way.

Forgive me for being a noob but I'm a little bit confused as to how you're presenting this run. You're doing it segmented but you're focusing on real-time but omitting important, inclusive elements of the gametime/real-time that come from the saves. Is that really allowed or is this just like a serious test run to showcase the best optimization ?.

Anyway the run looks really good so far. Looking forward to seeing all the tricks come together and well as the tighter movements.

Bismuth

Edit history:

Bismuth: 2014-02-18 09:06:12 am

2014-02-17 02:10:30 pm

Worthless categories WR master

Well, I care more about optimization and having a good looking run than about the actual game/real time. If I cared about the real time that much I would not record it with fraps because the game runs faster with unlimited FPS. If I cared about the game time I would run much longer segments to try and optimize long sections because each segment costs a bit over 2 seconds of game-time because the blue transitions are counted in the game time. You can do the test by having a save file, loading it, saving again, loading that save, saving again, etc. and even though you would spend close to no time (ideally none at all) actually playing in the file, your gametime goes up 2-3 seconds every time. For those reasons I feel like trying to optimize either one real/game time in a segmented speedrun would result in a lower quality of gameplay. I'm trying to craft the best gameplay, therefore I'll have to sacrifice a bit of game time/real time for it.

Overall though I still feel like tracking it using real-time cutting out saves and loads is the most accurate reading of the actual speed of the gameplay itself, even though it cannot be compared to RTA because the game runs slower, and they could be beaten fairly easily by playing slower but cutting the run into fewer segments. Losing 2.3 seconds on a segment that lasts 15 seconds is obviously hurting the game time, but it still allowed me to play that segment 17 frames (0.53 seconds) faster than it would have been if I hadn't (first completed segment vs. final segment I kept).

Well, I care more about optimization and having a good looking run than about the actual game/real time. If I cared about the real time that much I would not record it with fraps because the game runs faster with unlimited FPS. If I cared about the game time I would run much longer segments to try and optimize long sections because each segment costs a bit over 2 seconds of game-time because the blue transitions are counted in the game time. You can do the test by having a save file, loading it, saving again, loading that save, saving again, etc. and even though you would spend close to no time (ideally none at all) actually playing in the file, your gametime goes up 2-3 seconds every time. For those reasons I feel like trying to optimize either one real/game time in a segmented speedrun would result in a lower quality of gameplay. I'm trying to craft the best gameplay, therefore I'll have to sacrifice a bit of game time/real time for it.

Overall though I still feel like tracking it using real-time cutting out saves and loads is the most accurate reading of the actual speed of the gameplay itself, even though it cannot be compared to RTA because the game runs slower, and they could be beaten fairly easily by playing slower but cutting the run into fewer segments. Losing 2.3 seconds on a segment that lasts 15 seconds is obviously hurting the game time, but it still allowed me to play that segment 17 frames (0.53 seconds) faster than it would have been if I hadn't (first completed segment vs. final segment I kept).