Thief 2: The Metal Age

WheretIB

2015-12-06 09:47:37 am

Quote from LotBlind:

Do you feel like studying another weird effect?

Sure.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2015-12-06 03:49:08 pm

2015-12-06 03:35:28 pm

WheretIT: Just in general, I wouldn't mind if we had a copy of the partial source code in the Strategy Guide under a new sub-page of the main page. Would it be possible for you to take all the available code and create one document containing all of it? Could you also do another sum-up of what's possible and what isn't with the infinite potion stuff, especially whether or not you can get infinite invisibility or maybe some other effect on Soulforged too? Can you get two or more simultaneous effects? As I understand you can trigger it anywhere in the map, but it's always with a given timing after a load/save (after 8 seconds). But why is the first area special then? Is there a small number of similar zones around the map?

As for your next challenge, here's a few things to get you started:
- Slow-fall potions: why do they cause you to be freed from being stuck inside doors while transgressing and generally from all kinds of immobile states? How do they work in general?
- A tough one: Why does taking screenshots (even ones I'm taking with an external screen capture program!) cause a similar getting unstuck effect? It can't be the game's code surely?

Jake: I'm sorting out the guide a bit now (half-done). After that I might have some ideas for how to structure the video guides too. I'll put them in the Skype chat room.

Everyone: So we agreed that RTA is banned? Meaning ISP is only really gonna be used with segmented runs unless a non-save/load method is found. I edited the categories definitions pretty heavily so check it out if you like.

Having read WheretIT's technical explanation of the ISP, can anyone remember anything that doesn't get explained by it? Think about different times when you've activated it. Maybe even go back and try to replicate alternate methods of triggering it if you like. Not something to be frittered with because it could determine whether or not it's going into just the segmented or maybe in the IL run too.

If you read this post, is this also explained away by what we know about the code?

Meanwhile does someone wanna test if doing a gate boost while UNleaning is any different from when leaning? Meaning you'd have to lean before you uncrouch. I also came up with this: if you use an elevatoring technique while going up an actual elevator (like the dumbwaiter in mission 1 or the elevators in various other missions), could you not reach ledges/loot/whatever faster that way? There's a technique I call Fast Elevatoring in which you just basically spam the items above you while also spamming jump. This gets you up quick but is pretty inconsistent. You'd just need to grab a few loaves or whatever it is you have on the table in the mission 1 kitchen. You could also send the elevator back down faster.

Alternatively, whenever there's a button that you can reach that sends the elevator down/up again (when you're riding it), maybe you can just aim and shoot it or throw something at it to get it just a bit earlier? Doesn't that do anything on Life of the Party?

Jeez, Azal's guide is really comprehensive! I didn't even know there was another technique of stacking crates for a staircase for instance. There's apparently a difference between the bottom and top and sides of the crate so you only have the tiny flat area when you drop it on its side... which might have an impact on stuff actually. I'll edit that into the guide. There might be so much more as well Shocked

[b]WheretIT[/b]: Just in general, I wouldn't mind if we had a copy of the partial source code in the Strategy Guide under a new sub-page of the main page. Would it be possible for you to take all the available code and create one document containing all of it? Could you also do another sum-up of what's possible and what isn't with the infinite potion stuff, especially whether or not you can get infinite invisibility or maybe some other effect on Soulforged too? Can you get two or more simultaneous effects? As I understand you can trigger it anywhere in the map, but it's always with a given timing after a load/save (after 8 seconds). But why is the first area special then? Is there a small number of similar zones around the map?

As for your next challenge, here's a few things to get you started:
- Slow-fall potions: why do they cause you to be freed from being stuck inside doors while transgressing and generally from all kinds of immobile states? How do they work in general?
- A tough one: Why does taking screenshots (even ones I'm taking with an external screen capture program!) cause a similar getting unstuck effect? It can't be the game's code surely?

[b]Jake[/b]: I'm sorting out the guide a bit now (half-done). After that I might have some ideas for how to structure the video guides too. I'll put them in the Skype chat room.

[b]Everyone[/b]: So we agreed that RTA is banned? Meaning ISP is only really gonna be used with segmented runs unless a non-save/load method is found. I edited the categories definitions pretty heavily so check it out if you like.

Having read WheretIT's technical explanation of the ISP, can anyone remember anything that doesn't get explained by it? Think about different times when you've activated it. Maybe even go back and try to replicate alternate methods of triggering it if you like. Not something to be frittered with because it could determine whether or not it's going into just the segmented or maybe in the IL run too.

If you read [url=https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/thief_2_the_metal_age_verifiers_needed_404.html]this post[/url], is this also explained away by what we know about the code?

Meanwhile does someone wanna test if doing a gate boost while UNleaning is any different from when leaning? Meaning you'd have to lean before you uncrouch. I also came up with this: if you use an elevatoring technique while going up an actual elevator (like the dumbwaiter in mission 1 or the elevators in various other missions), could you not reach ledges/loot/whatever faster that way? There's a technique I call Fast Elevatoring in which you just basically spam the items above you while also spamming jump. This gets you up quick but is pretty inconsistent. You'd just need to grab a few loaves or whatever it is you have on the table in the mission 1 kitchen. You could also send the elevator back down faster.

Alternatively, whenever there's a button that you can reach that sends the elevator down/up again (when you're riding it), maybe you can just aim and shoot it or throw something at it to get it just a bit earlier? Doesn't that do anything on Life of the Party?

Jeez, Azal's guide is really comprehensive! I didn't even know there was another technique of stacking crates for a staircase for instance. There's apparently a difference between the bottom and top and sides of the crate so you only have the tiny flat area when you drop it on its side... which might have an impact on stuff actually. I'll edit that into the guide. There might be so much more as well :o

WheretIB

2015-12-07 01:07:47 am

Quote from LotBlind:

- Slow-fall potions: why do they cause you to be freed from being stuck inside doors while transgressing and generally from all kinds of immobile states? How do they work in general?

Slow Fall potion is based on a 'TimedPotion' the same way Speed Potion and Invisiblity Potions is.

Code:

/* Potion's effect is to reduce gravity on the imbiber to 50%.
   Also reduces movement speed by 50%, keeping jump distance about
   the same.  Only supported for player-character imbiber.
   */
BEGIN_SCRIPT(LoGravPotion,TimedPotion)
METHODS:
   METHOD void PotionEffect(object imbiber, boolean start)
   {
      if(!Object.InheritsFrom(imbiber,Object.Named("Avatar")))
         return;
      if(start)
      {
         vector vel;

         // Arrest downward velocity by 50%.  If you'd been at 50%
         // gravity all along, you'd actually only be at 30% less
         // velocity at the same depth (a factory of 1/root(2)).
         // This will then tend to encourage use of the potion in
         // mid-fall, which sounds like fun. -TJS
         Physics.GetVelocity(imbiber,vel);
         if(vel.z<0) vel.z/=2;
         Physics.SetVelocity(imbiber,vel);

         DrkInv.AddSpeedControl("LoGrav",0.5,1.0);
         Physics.SetGravity(imbiber,0.50);
      }
      else
      {
         Physics.SetGravity(imbiber,1.00);
         DrkInv.RemoveSpeedControl("LoGrav");
      }
   }
END_SCRIPT(LoGravPotion)

The 'special' effects that the Slow Fall potions have are the side-effect of changing the player velocity.

Code:

STDMETHOD(SetVelocity)(object obj, const vector ref vel)
{
   // Setting velocities from scripts wants to be initially clear from the
   // effects of friction, so we break all contacts.  
   cPhysModel *pModel = g_PhysModels.GetActive(obj);
   if (pModel)
   {
      for (int i=0; i<pModel->NumSubModels(); i++)
      {
         pModel->DestroyAllTerrainContacts(i);
         DestroyAllObjectContacts(obj, i, pModel);
      }
   }
   PhysSetVelocity(obj, (mxs_vector*)&vel);
   return S_OK;
}

As you can see, changing the player speed destroys all the physics body contacts. By destroying solved physics contacts, the physics engine has to re-compute collisions again. That's what makes you 'unstuck' in some cases.

'DestroyAllObjectContacts' also calls 'BreakClimb' function that detaches you from the rope (that's why you fall from it if you drink a Slow Fall potion):

Code:

if (pModel1->IsRopeClimbing() && pModel1->GetClimbingObj() == objID2)
   BreakClimb(objID1, FALSE, TRUE);
else
if (pModel2->IsRopeClimbing() && pModel2->GetClimbingObj() == objID1)
   BreakClimb(objID2, FALSE, TRUE);

Not only can you break known 'contacts' to unstuck yourself, you can also use that to get yourself stuck. Try going into a door and drink 4-5 Slow Fall potions at the same time. You can get yourself stuck in any door (I was playing around at Soulforge again).

I'll address the other questions from your post a bit later, didn't have a lot of time to check and compose other stuff.

[quote="LotBlind"]- Slow-fall potions: why do they cause you to be freed from being stuck inside doors while transgressing and generally from all kinds of immobile states? How do they work in general?[/quote]
Slow Fall potion is based on a 'TimedPotion' the same way Speed Potion and Invisiblity Potions is.

[hidden="Slow Fall Potion Script"]
[code]/* Potion's effect is to reduce gravity on the imbiber to 50%.
   Also reduces movement speed by 50%, keeping jump distance about
   the same.  Only supported for player-character imbiber.
   */
BEGIN_SCRIPT(LoGravPotion,TimedPotion)
METHODS:
   METHOD void PotionEffect(object imbiber, boolean start)
   {
      if(!Object.InheritsFrom(imbiber,Object.Named("Avatar")))
         return;
      if(start)
      {
         vector vel;

// Arrest downward velocity by 50%.  If you'd been at 50%
         // gravity all along, you'd actually only be at 30% less
         // velocity at the same depth (a factory of 1/root(2)).
         // This will then tend to encourage use of the potion in
         // mid-fall, which sounds like fun. -TJS
         Physics.GetVelocity(imbiber,vel);
         if(vel.z<0) vel.z/=2;
         Physics.SetVelocity(imbiber,vel);

DrkInv.AddSpeedControl("LoGrav",0.5,1.0);
         Physics.SetGravity(imbiber,0.50);
      }
      else
      {
         Physics.SetGravity(imbiber,1.00);
         DrkInv.RemoveSpeedControl("LoGrav");
      }
   }
END_SCRIPT(LoGravPotion)[/code][/hidden]

The 'special' effects that the Slow Fall potions have are the side-effect of changing the player velocity.

[hidden=SetVelocity][code]STDMETHOD(SetVelocity)(object obj, const vector ref vel)
{
   // Setting velocities from scripts wants to be initially clear from the
   // effects of friction, so we break all contacts.  
   cPhysModel *pModel = g_PhysModels.GetActive(obj);
   if (pModel)
   {
      for (int i=0; i<pModel->NumSubModels(); i++)
      {
         pModel->DestroyAllTerrainContacts(i);
         DestroyAllObjectContacts(obj, i, pModel);
      }
   }
   PhysSetVelocity(obj, (mxs_vector*)&vel);
   return S_OK;
}
[/code][/hidden]

As you can see, changing the player speed destroys all the physics body contacts. By destroying solved physics contacts, the physics engine has to re-compute collisions again. That's what makes you 'unstuck' in some cases.

'DestroyAllObjectContacts' also calls 'BreakClimb' function that detaches you from the rope (that's why you fall from it if you drink a Slow Fall potion):
[code]if (pModel1->IsRopeClimbing() && pModel1->GetClimbingObj() == objID2)
   BreakClimb(objID1, FALSE, TRUE);
else
if (pModel2->IsRopeClimbing() && pModel2->GetClimbingObj() == objID1)
   BreakClimb(objID2, FALSE, TRUE);[/code]

Not only can you break known 'contacts' to unstuck yourself, you can also use that to get yourself stuck. Try going into a door and drink 4-5 Slow Fall potions at the same time. You can get yourself stuck in any door (I was playing around at Soulforge again).

I'll address the other questions from your post a bit later, didn't have a lot of time to check and compose other stuff.

WheretIB

2015-12-07 02:20:57 pm

While it is possible to make an infinite Slow Fall potion, it isn't the case with the Invisibility Potion.

The game performs player visibility calculations 5 times a second.

Code:

const long kVisibilityUpdateRate = 200;

void AIUpdateVisibility(ObjID objId)
{
   Assert_(IsAPlayer(objId));

   sAIVisibility * pVisibility = AIGetVisibility(objId);

   int timeSinceLast = (pVisibility) ? AIGetTime() - pVisibility->updateTime : 0;

   if (!pVisibility || timeSinceLast > kVisibilityUpdateRate)
   {
...

The way Invisibility Potion works if that is sets the last computed visibility value to 0:

Code:

Property.Set(self,"AI_Visibility","Level",0);
Property.Set(self,"AI_Visibility","Light rating",0);
Property.Set(self,"AI_Visibility","Movement rating",0);
Property.Set(self,"AI_Visibility","Exposure rating",0);

And also schedules the next update X seconds in the future.

Code:

         // note that this will need to be converted to milliseconds for the property
         float time=GetTime();
         integer timeout=8600;

         if(Property.Possessed(self,"ScriptTiming"))
            timeout=Property.Get(self,"ScriptTiming");

         if(!Object.HasMetaProperty(imbiber,invis))
            Object.AddMetaProperty(imbiber,invis);
         // Postdate the property so as to disable updates
         Property.Set(imbiber,"AI_Visibility","Last update time",
                      integer(time*1000)+timeout);

So even though you can prevent the Invisibility Potion from stopping its effects normaly, the visibility updates will continue to be calculated in X seconds.

While it is possible to make an infinite Slow Fall potion, it isn't the case with the Invisibility Potion.

The game performs player visibility calculations 5 times a second.
[hidden="Player visibility update"][code]const long kVisibilityUpdateRate = 200;

void AIUpdateVisibility(ObjID objId)
{
   Assert_(IsAPlayer(objId));

sAIVisibility * pVisibility = AIGetVisibility(objId);

int timeSinceLast = (pVisibility) ? AIGetTime() - pVisibility->updateTime : 0;

if (!pVisibility || timeSinceLast > kVisibilityUpdateRate)
   {
...[/code][/hidden]
The way Invisibility Potion works if that is sets the last computed visibility value to 0:
[code]Property.Set(self,"AI_Visibility","Level",0);
Property.Set(self,"AI_Visibility","Light rating",0);
Property.Set(self,"AI_Visibility","Movement rating",0);
Property.Set(self,"AI_Visibility","Exposure rating",0);
[/code]
And also schedules the next update X seconds in the future.
[hidden="Invisibility Potion effect start"][code]         // note that this will need to be converted to milliseconds for the property
         float time=GetTime();
         integer timeout=8600;

if(Property.Possessed(self,"ScriptTiming"))
            timeout=Property.Get(self,"ScriptTiming");

if(!Object.HasMetaProperty(imbiber,invis))
            Object.AddMetaProperty(imbiber,invis);
         // Postdate the property so as to disable updates
         Property.Set(imbiber,"AI_Visibility","Last update time",
                      integer(time*1000)+timeout);[/code][/hidden]
So even though you can prevent the Invisibility Potion from stopping its effects normaly, the visibility updates will continue to be calculated in X seconds.

WheretIB

2015-12-07 02:59:14 pm

Quote from LotBlind:

Can you get two or more simultaneous effects?

Yes, you can have a Speed Potion and a Slow Fall potions being active and infinite. Doing that in the starting zone will take a lot of time though.

Quote from LotBlind:

As I understand you can trigger it anywhere in the map, but it's always with a given timing after a load/save (after 8 seconds). But why is the first area special then? Is there a small number of similar zones around the map?

You can trigger the bug in five areas of the map where TrigFlicker objects are used.

I don't have a lot of experience with Dromed editor, so I couldn't find their location, but by running around the level, I have found that outside the starting area, these triggers are activated in the area where there is a 'furnace' light that turns on and off and in the room next to it, where there are sawblades, presses and a fire (this is the place where ISP was activated on the twitch stream originally).

In that area, 3 TrigFlicker objects work simultaneously, so it may be possible to activate multiple potions at the same time there, but the timing would be hard to figure out.

[quote="LotBlind"]Can you get two or more simultaneous effects?[/quote]
Yes, you can have a Speed Potion and a Slow Fall potions being active and infinite. Doing that in the starting zone will take a lot of time though.

[quote="LotBlind"]As I understand you can trigger it anywhere in the map, but it's always with a given timing after a load/save (after 8 seconds). But why is the first area special then? Is there a small number of similar zones around the map?[/quote]
You can trigger the bug in five areas of the map where TrigFlicker objects are used.

I don't have a lot of experience with Dromed editor, so I couldn't find their location, but by running around the level, I have found that outside the starting area, these triggers are activated in the area where there is a 'furnace' light that turns on and off and in the room next to it, where there are sawblades, presses and a fire (this is the place where ISP was activated on the twitch stream originally).

In that area, 3 TrigFlicker objects work simultaneously, so it may be possible to activate multiple potions at the same time there, but the timing would be hard to figure out.

jakeplissken

2015-12-07 07:26:45 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Hi again guys, sorry for the absence. Been a bit overwhelmed lately.

I think a separate archive channel for strategy guide related stuff is a great idea. I already locally deleted most of the videos I made for the existing tricks so I'd just have to download them via youtube and then reupload them on the new channel. We can start a priority list of all the things that we'd like to cover and develop a stricter formula for demonstrating them on video.

If we're taking votes, my opinion is that RTA should only be used on segmented runs (including "single-segment" with quickloads). I read through WheretIB's description very closely and I think that any ISP without s/l must be a fluke, contrary to what I previously thought. It seems that there is no way that the timers would interact in the way they do without loading. It's a bit disappointing that there is probably no possible SS setup, but it's not that big of a deal unless we place undue value on the idea of getting sub-1hr. Sub-1 is actually trivial with ISP; on my first practice run I got a 59:09 with lots of mistakes. The sum of my best splits without ISP is sub-1 as well, but just barely. So it's possible in a single segment, but only in a perfect run.

Another thing to note is that a lot of the stuff Azal does in his guide is much harder to do in NewDark. Personally I find crate stacking to be particularly challenging because sometimes the crates rotate a bit too much and make it impossible to stack the next one, and when stacking you either drop them too far and drop it off the edge of the staircase, or drop it so close that you can't climb on. But he also includes a lot of mechanics that we don't see much in the run (like how if crates are dropped from high enough, they shatter), and there's a lot of options open for exploration and creativity with the route if only we could think up some applications.

Hi again guys, sorry for the absence. Been a bit overwhelmed lately.

I think a separate archive channel for strategy guide related stuff is a great idea. I already locally deleted most of the videos I made for the existing tricks so I'd just have to download them via youtube and then reupload them on the new channel. We can start a priority list of all the things that we'd like to cover and develop a stricter formula for demonstrating them on video.

If we're taking votes, my opinion is that RTA should only be used on segmented runs (including "single-segment" with quickloads). I read through WheretIB's description very closely and I think that any ISP without s/l must be a fluke, contrary to what I previously thought. It seems that there is no way that the timers would interact in the way they do without loading. It's a bit disappointing that there is probably no possible SS setup, but it's not that big of a deal unless we place undue value on the idea of getting sub-1hr. Sub-1 is actually trivial with ISP; on my first practice run I got a 59:09 with lots of mistakes. The sum of my best splits without ISP is sub-1 as well, but just barely. So it's possible in a single segment, but only in a perfect run.

Another thing to note is that a lot of the stuff Azal does in his guide is much harder to do in NewDark. Personally I find crate stacking to be particularly challenging because sometimes the crates rotate a bit too much and make it impossible to stack the next one, and when stacking you either drop them too far and drop it off the edge of the staircase, or drop it so close that you can't climb on. But he also includes a lot of mechanics that we don't see much in the run (like how if crates are dropped from high enough, they shatter), and there's a lot of options open for exploration and creativity with the route if only we could think up some applications.

OneginIII

2015-12-08 02:50:41 pm

twitch.tv/oneginiii

I haven't had motivation to run this game recently, but I want to comment on some stuff that's been discussed.

Having a dedicated YT channel for strats sounds cool. I would be fine with just a playlist too, or maybe a list of links in the wiki guide.

As for RTA, I don't want to see it banned. Any SDA submission is going to be regular single-segment anyways, so RTA is only a thing on the speedrun.com leaderboards. ISP is a really cool glitch and having it kinda disappear from use by having it only in a not-yet-existing segmented run would also disappoint me. ISP is just the kind of glitch that makes speedrunning cool for me. It's just ridiculous and easily saves like 3-4 minutes (someone should really time how much at some point). When I get motivated again I'll come back to RTA to also get a sub 1. I don't know if I'll keep going after that though.

I've also been thinking of going through the game trying to find small optimizations with some of the new boost ideas and such. I already have some ideas. I'll try to do something like that when I have time.

I haven't had motivation to run this game recently, but I want to comment on some stuff that's been discussed.

Having a dedicated YT channel for strats sounds cool. I would be fine with just a playlist too, or maybe a list of links in the wiki guide.

As for RTA, I don't want to see it banned. Any SDA submission is going to be regular single-segment anyways, so RTA is only a thing on the speedrun.com leaderboards. ISP is a really cool glitch and having it kinda disappear from use by having it only in a not-yet-existing segmented run would also disappoint me. ISP is just the kind of glitch that makes speedrunning cool for me. It's just ridiculous and easily saves like 3-4 minutes (someone should really time how much at some point). When I get motivated again I'll come back to RTA to also get a sub 1. I don't know if I'll keep going after that though.

I've also been thinking of going through the game trying to find small optimizations with some of the new boost ideas and such. I already have some ideas. I'll try to do something like that when I have time.

LotBlind

2015-12-09 12:24:44 pm

WheretIT: Great stuff again! So the game only delays the next visibility check by the invis potion's effect duration? Which means even if you got it to skip that phase, that would cause you to become visible again after just 0.2 seconds? If so that sounds a bummer but good to know.

How about could you get the ISP in the starting area, then activate slow-fall later on in one of the other areas? Would you have to wait around for a long time? I'm just asking so we can get this whole thing cleared off our minds for good.

Do you think you could take charge over the "source code" section of the guide so you could format it yourself in the most appropriate way? The mark-up is very simple as you can see, even the ToC is automatic. That page is only supposed to contain snippets of code that address specific questions (with a few comments) as to how stuff works whenever relevant to understanding the various glitches and tricks. The full source code might be compiled into a .txt or .doc file or something like that and just linked. In any case if I didn't have to update that myself as well (we do NOT want stuff to just get buried in the thread) I'd have more time for keeping the tricks page tidy as well as for actual new glitchhunting. I didn't copy the invisibility etc. snippets in yet.

I could not replicate using slow-fall potions to get stuck on doors, only a barrel. Can you provide a video or a more thorough explanation?

jake: Is it possible for you to start that new YT channel? I already have the two channels a single user is allowed to have. You could let everyone here have the rights to edit it, but perhaps it's prudent if you send the info via PM.

We need to do a thorough check with you or someone when I've finished reorganizing the guide (1/3 left!) to see what's doable in NewDark, what isn't. We very much need to know. I didn't realize any physics were changed that affect objects such as crates... Azal (I think it's by Luthien actually about stacking) points out that it's NOT easy to do and will require tons of resets.

Onegin: As before, you can do whatever you like on any other sites. No comment from us. It's true that segmented is far from here but you gotta peer into the future when talking about run categories lest you inconvenience future runners. Good luck with attempts!

Everyone: Does anyone remember any other places than mission 2 with locks external to the door? If not, I'll move that trick under the mission 2 subsection.

WheretIT: Great stuff again! So the game only delays the next visibility check by the invis potion's effect duration? Which means even if you got it to skip that phase, that would cause you to become visible again after just 0.2 seconds? If so that sounds a bummer but good to know.

How about could you get the ISP in the starting area, then activate slow-fall later on in one of the other areas? Would you have to wait around for a long time? I'm just asking so we can get this whole thing cleared off our minds for good.

Do you think you could take charge over the[url=https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Thief_2/Source_Code] "source code" section[/url] of the guide so you could format it yourself in the most appropriate way? The mark-up is very simple as you can see, even the ToC is automatic. That page is only supposed to contain snippets of code that address specific questions (with a few comments) as to how stuff works whenever relevant to understanding the various glitches and tricks. The full source code might be compiled into a .txt or .doc file or something like that and just linked. In any case if I didn't have to update that myself as well (we do NOT want stuff to just get buried in the thread) I'd have more time for keeping the tricks page tidy as well as for actual new glitchhunting. I didn't copy the invisibility etc. snippets in yet.

I could not replicate using slow-fall potions to get stuck on doors, only a barrel. Can you provide a video or a more thorough explanation?

jake: Is it possible for you to start that new YT channel? I already have the two channels a single user is allowed to have. You could let everyone here have the rights to edit it, but perhaps it's prudent if you send the info via PM.

We need to do a thorough check with you or someone when I've finished reorganizing the guide (1/3 left!) to see what's doable in NewDark, what isn't. We very much need to know. I didn't realize any physics were changed that affect objects such as crates... Azal (I think it's by Luthien actually about stacking) points out that it's NOT easy to do and will require tons of resets.

Onegin: As before, you can do whatever you like on any other sites. No comment from us. It's true that segmented is far from here but you gotta peer into the future when talking about run categories lest you inconvenience future runners. Good luck with attempts!

Everyone: Does anyone remember any other places than mission 2 with locks external to the door? If not, I'll move that trick under the mission 2 subsection.

WheretIB

2015-12-09 03:32:17 pm

Quote from LotBlind:

I could not replicate using slow-fall potions to get stuck on doors, only a barrel. Can you provide a video or a more thorough explanation?

Here's an example:

I hold Shift+Forward to run into the door during the beginning. This doesn't always work, sometimes I had to drink all 5 potions to get stuck inside. Was not able to escape so far.

WheretIB

2015-12-09 04:13:15 pm

Quote from LotBlind:

So the game only delays the next visibility check by the invis potion's effect duration? Which means even if you got it to skip that phase, that would cause you to become visible again after just 0.2 seconds? If so that sounds a bummer but good to know.

Yes, just like that.

Quote from LotBlind:

How about could you get the ISP in the starting area, then activate slow-fall later on in one of the other areas?

You could, but is the infinite slow fall potion actually that good in this level?

Quote from LotBlind:

Do you think you could take charge over the "source code" section of the guide so you could format it yourself in the most appropriate way?

I'll check what I can do at the end of the week.

Quote from LotBlind:

A tough one: Why does taking screenshots (even ones I'm taking with an external screen capture program!) cause a similar getting unstuck effect? It can't be the game's code surely?

Haven't got around to this yet, but from a short glance, it seems that the game uses variable-time frame updates with the upper limit of 150ms step per frame. When the collision detection is performed with such a large time step, there might be some bugs. (Modern games usually run physics at constant 16ms fixed-step update intervals to avoid issues)

I've tried to use screenshot to get outside from being stuck inside a door, but I had no luck with that, could you maybe provide a save file to test?

[quote="LotBlind"]So the game only delays the next visibility check by the invis potion's effect duration? Which means even if you got it to skip that phase, that would cause you to become visible again after just 0.2 seconds? If so that sounds a bummer but good to know.[/quote]
Yes, just like that.

[quote="LotBlind"]How about could you get the ISP in the starting area, then activate slow-fall later on in one of the other areas?[/quote]
You could, but is the infinite slow fall potion actually that good in this level?

[quote="LotBlind"]Do you think you could take charge over the "source code" section of the guide so you could format it yourself in the most appropriate way?[/quote]
I'll check what I can do at the end of the week.

[quote="LotBlind"]A tough one: Why does taking screenshots (even ones I'm taking with an external screen capture program!) cause a similar getting unstuck effect? It can't be the game's code surely?[/quote]
Haven't got around to this yet, but from a short glance, it seems that the game uses variable-time frame updates with the upper limit of 150ms step per frame. When the collision detection is performed with such a large time step, there might be some bugs. (Modern games usually run physics at constant 16ms fixed-step update intervals to avoid issues)

I've tried to use screenshot to get outside from being stuck inside a door, but I had no luck with that, could you maybe provide a save file to test?

LotBlind

2015-12-10 12:35:08 pm

WheretIB: I can't provide a save file because I run v. 1.07 (unless you have that one running). I have never gotten unstuck from doors that way, only ceilings really. If you go to mission 2 and do a bay door boost slightly wrong you should get stuck in the door or ceiling instead (open it ajar i.e. open and close while standing in its way so it stays ajar, crouch, get underneath it, then e.g. drink a slow-fall and jump). Then you might be able to make your fall to the floor faster by hitting screenshot.

Hey, are you sure that door isn't already open? As in it might not have moved but is it in a closed/locked state? Cause that changes how they behave quite a bit. Otherwise we may have found the first real trick that works with NewDark but not OldDark.

There's probably no level where infinite slow-falling is more tempting THAN Soulforge because of all the elevators and stuff. Maybe Party too. But anyway the question was intended for covering anything vaguely useful to know.

Guys, I'm sorry but I've found another ridiculous boost Tongue

All you do is open/close a door half-way and lean into it. Hope it's "supported" by NewDark or OldDark runs are going to be like 10 minutes faster.

WheretIB: I can't provide a save file because I run v. 1.07 (unless you have that one running). I have never gotten unstuck from doors that way, only ceilings really. If you go to mission 2 and do a bay door boost slightly wrong you should get stuck in the door or ceiling instead (open it ajar i.e. open and close while standing in its way so it stays ajar, crouch, get underneath it, then e.g. drink a slow-fall and jump). Then you might be able to make your fall to the floor faster by hitting screenshot.

Hey, are you sure that door isn't already open? As in it might not have moved but is it in a closed/locked state? Cause that changes how they behave quite a bit. Otherwise we may have found the first real trick that works with NewDark but not OldDark.

There's probably no level where infinite slow-falling is more tempting THAN Soulforge because of all the elevators and stuff. Maybe Party too. But anyway the question was intended for covering anything vaguely useful to know.

Guys, I'm sorry but I've found another ridiculous boost :P All you do is open/close a door half-way and lean into it. Hope it's "supported" by NewDark or OldDark runs are going to be like 10 minutes faster.

WheretIB

2015-12-10 12:49:27 pm

I remember Thief 1 having half-closed door lean boosts that gave you so much speed you usually died in a second. Does Thief 2 have something similar? Smiley

LotBlind

2015-12-11 03:49:13 pm

At some point we do need to take a close look at everything T1 had and test it once again for T2, but also, importantly, vice versa. T1 has such ridiculous shit that some of the smaller things may well have been overlooked. On the other hand does Thief 1 reeaalllyy need any more speed Tongue

The boost I found gives you a high but very manageable amount of speed.

Can anyone make heads or tails of this: http://www.greywool.com/azal/Tutorials/Movement_Skills/
What does the guy mean by what he's written under "Moving on uneven or slippery surfaces"? Something about crouching to increase friction and lean+running to climb up slopes, but you can't lean and straferun at the same time so...

He also points out a quick save/quick load can enable movement when you're stuck... I think I'm seeing a similar effect to screenshotting. Or not quite. Gotta mess with this some more.

I found a better method of door transgression using crouch-mantle. Seeing as none of you can do it anyway, I'll just include it in the guide.

I just read about an easter egg this game has I didn't know about: go to mission 2, input 7002 on the code pads, go to Porter's 2nd floor (the art gallery) and enter his office. Read the scroll Cheesy

At some point we do need to take a close look at everything T1 had and test it once again for T2, but also, importantly, vice versa. T1 has such ridiculous shit that some of the smaller things may well have been overlooked. On the other hand does Thief 1 reeaalllyy need any more speed :P

The boost I found gives you a high but very manageable amount of speed.

Can anyone make heads or tails of this: http://www.greywool.com/azal/Tutorials/Movement_Skills/
What does the guy mean by what he's written under "Moving on uneven or slippery surfaces"? Something about crouching to increase friction and lean+running to climb up slopes, but you can't lean and straferun at the same time so...

He also points out a quick save/quick load can enable movement when you're stuck... I think I'm seeing a similar effect to screenshotting. Or not quite. Gotta mess with this some more.

I found a better method of door transgression using crouch-mantle. Seeing as none of you can do it anyway, I'll just include it in the guide.

I just read about an easter egg this game has I didn't know about: go to mission 2, input 7002 on the code pads, go to Porter's 2nd floor (the art gallery) and enter his office. Read the scroll :D

WheretIB

2015-12-12 02:58:58 pm

I've tried door lean boosts that worked in Thief 1, but they don't seem to work in Thief 2 with NewDark:

PS. It seems that I don't have 'Edit' access at the wiki, so I can't add source code to the page myself.

LotBlind

2015-12-13 02:07:13 pm

I found a mention of a method of getting extra money using an exploit:

Quote:

Money Doubling: Save the game immediately before completing a mission. Complete the mission as usual, and save the game in a different save position. Reload save that was made before the mission was completed. Complete the mission again. The statistics screen will combine the money from both missions. Repeat this to earn as much as needed.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't use this in a segmented run... It doesn't even make it NG+ or anything because you're using a save file you create during the run.

Mission 2 route: if you climb the first ladder like you normally do, then do a 180 and walk the catwalk down to the door, is that going to be slower? What if you reroute the loot that's in the main office area that you need to enter to tick the objective? I think with a slow-fall potion you might be able to mantle the catwalk directly off the crates at least with NewDark mantling.

----

A shame if door boosts (I dunno if it's technically different from what I called "lean boost" earlier, but in any case "door boost" should be unambiguous) are OldDark only. Well I guess all the more incentive for someone someday to run it.

Asked someone about the edit rights thing...

I found a mention of a method of getting extra money using an exploit:
[quote]Money Doubling: Save the game immediately before completing a mission. Complete the mission as usual, and save the game in a different save position. Reload save that was made before the mission was completed. Complete the mission again. The statistics screen will combine the money from both missions. Repeat this to earn as much as needed.[/quote]

I don't see any reason why you couldn't use this in a segmented run... It doesn't even make it NG+ or anything because you're using a save file you create during the run.

Mission 2 route: if you climb the first ladder like you normally do, then do a 180 and walk the catwalk down to the door, is that going to be slower? What if you reroute the loot that's in the main office area that you need to enter to tick the objective? I think with a slow-fall potion you might be able to mantle the catwalk directly off the crates at least with NewDark mantling.

----

A shame if door boosts (I dunno if it's technically different from what I called "lean boost" earlier, but in any case "door boost" should be unambiguous) are OldDark only. Well I guess all the more incentive for someone someday to run it.

Asked someone about the edit rights thing...

LotBlind

2015-12-14 10:14:57 am

Before I ask anyone else (they said any registered user should be able to edit the KB), can we confirm you were properly logged in when you made the attempt? What's the exact error message?

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2015-12-16 12:44:47 pm

2015-12-16 12:44:20 pm

Remembered a trick I'd seen earlier: the Quick Rope Climb. Added description of this and multiple other additions into the guide.

Jesus H.C. once again! I just realized you can control which way Garrett swings the sword by moving your mouse towards the left if you want a leftwards swing (default is rightwards).

Man, spiders have weird A.I.

Hmm... I should stop bumping this on my own.

jakeplissken

2016-01-13 05:50:18 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Hey guys, I'm back running this game again. Just streamed a little bit today and did a little practice. My single segment run died to Trail of Blood so I decided to break out the old stopwatch and do some testing.

First of all some optimizations I've implemented. In Eavesdropping, jumping over the stairway by the door where you listen to the conversation is half a second faster than running around it because you can trigger the dialogue a little faster. In Trail of Blood, I've seen people skip the speed potion at the top of the spiral staircase. I timed several different routes starting from grabbing the ruby stone, to get the potion and to get to the point where you jump across the river, and all of them are about 11 seconds. To leave the building takes around 7 seconds if nobody bodyblocks you. So if health is not an issue, it's ALWAYS better to take that potion. You do lose about half of your HP from the fall if you're at full HP though, so taking any damage makes this risky anyway.

At the very beginning of Life of the Party, it's possible to jump across the gap over which the metal pipes run instead of climbing up on top of the pipes and running across, but the timing window is very narrow. You've got maybe four or five frames to jump and then your camera has to be perfect to get the mantle. May be relevant to a segmented run in the near future. I've also started buying a flash bomb for the flash/blackjack knockout on the lady mechanist who so often blocks you in the doorway of the library. It's potentially slower but more consistent. If you can toss it from far enough away you barely lose time. Even if you don't have to use it, it still comes in handy getting by the rest of the mechanists on the rooftops.

I've gotten the setup for the infinite speed potion pretty consistent. I quicksave/quickload after Karras finishes saying "Thou art Garrett, are you not?" and use the speed potion immediately upon reloading. The margin for error seems fairly wide. However, it's not possible to start running into the cathedral during Karras' line. I think it must have something to do with parts of the level being loaded, but I tried several setups and just standing where you get spawned in was by far the most consistent. During this time I open the front door of the cathedral, because you have to go through it at the very end of the level and with a speed potion active it's not possible to go through closed doors without slightly slowing down due to the distance at which you can frob the door. Naturally since we only use one speed potion, I changed the starting items to be 1 speed potion, three fire arrows, and one frogbeast egg. Having the extra two fire arrows allows you to blast open the double doors into the room with the plans rather than picking the lock. Furthermore since steel plates work even better than frogbeast eggs for breaking your fall (and are reusable if necessary) I don't bother with the frogbeast egg on the gantry above the machines in the front hall of the cathedral.

Hey guys, I'm back running this game again. Just streamed a little bit today and did a little practice. My single segment run died to Trail of Blood so I decided to break out the old stopwatch and do some testing.

First of all some optimizations I've implemented. In Eavesdropping, jumping over the stairway by the door where you listen to the conversation is half a second faster than running around it because you can trigger the dialogue a little faster. In Trail of Blood, I've seen people skip the speed potion at the top of the spiral staircase. I timed several different routes starting from grabbing the ruby stone, to get the potion and to get to the point where you jump across the river, and all of them are about 11 seconds. To leave the building takes around 7 seconds if nobody bodyblocks you. So if health is not an issue, it's ALWAYS better to take that potion. You do lose about half of your HP from the fall if you're at full HP though, so taking any damage makes this risky anyway.

At the very beginning of Life of the Party, it's possible to jump across the gap over which the metal pipes run instead of climbing up on top of the pipes and running across, but the timing window is very narrow. You've got maybe four or five frames to jump and then your camera has to be perfect to get the mantle. May be relevant to a segmented run in the near future. I've also started buying a flash bomb for the flash/blackjack knockout on the lady mechanist who so often blocks you in the doorway of the library. It's potentially slower but more consistent. If you can toss it from far enough away you barely lose time. Even if you don't have to use it, it still comes in handy getting by the rest of the mechanists on the rooftops.

I've gotten the setup for the infinite speed potion pretty consistent. I quicksave/quickload after Karras finishes saying "Thou art Garrett, are you not?" and use the speed potion immediately upon reloading. The margin for error seems fairly wide. However, it's not possible to start running into the cathedral during Karras' line. I think it must have something to do with parts of the level being loaded, but I tried several setups and just standing where you get spawned in was by far the most consistent. During this time I open the front door of the cathedral, because you have to go through it at the very end of the level and with a speed potion active it's not possible to go through closed doors without slightly slowing down due to the distance at which you can frob the door. Naturally since we only use one speed potion, I changed the starting items to be 1 speed potion, three fire arrows, and one frogbeast egg. Having the extra two fire arrows allows you to blast open the double doors into the room with the plans rather than picking the lock. Furthermore since steel plates work even better than frogbeast eggs for breaking your fall (and are reusable if necessary) I don't bother with the frogbeast egg on the gantry above the machines in the front hall of the cathedral.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2016-01-14 12:08:10 pm

2016-01-14 12:00:05 pm

Here's some old notes first:

-Looks like some missions actually have less loot on hard/expert than normal! Didn't expect that. I still think running 100% on Expert only is a smart idea.

-I can tell you for sure the game draws your player model at your feet not your torso's position. Because useful.

-If you run alongside a slippery surface such as a rooftop, I wonder if you don't gain speed by jumping onto that surface, slide down and convert the sliding momentum into forwards momentum by kind of bunnyhopping? Of course the slide acceleration is probably applied in a crosswards direction but if maybe you could keep enough of it to justify the sinusoidal movement.

- I noticed if you go to in front of bay 4 in building B, on the inside, and try to reach the lock or the lever you can't reach either. If you first open the bay door you can reach both easily through the wall! When the bay door is open it also changes the sound promulgation so the sound of clicking the lock is clearly coming from the right where the bay door is. I wonder what causes the change in frobability?

- When you're on a rope and you save/load, you get sent upwards automatically! This might be something you do with every rope in segmented runs... Good thing there's no segment penalties any more.

- I was blackjacking away at an alerted guard and got him to say the following line: "You ever heard of armor taffer?"

jake: If you read the guide, you'd know how you can do that Life of the Party jump... do you want to ask something about it?

I thought we agreed ISP is segmented only? So as to not make the run RTA (any save/load counts as a reset)? Good finds though! If you have some confusion about how far into the room you can run to not lose the ISP (if you still want to mess with it), you should... well, check the guide!

Here's the full low-down on SS vs. RTA that I checked out of curiosity. Based on that I don't think we ever even needed to have a discussion. This should be a pretty clear-cut case of when the resets don't add enough to the run. I guess the difference is about 4 minutes (half of the Soulforge time) but even that is all focused in the same mission.

So yeah the guide is basically ready for being split into OldDark and NewDark sections so we have an accurate map of what you guys need to be on the lookout for and what you don't. Like I said, the best way to do that is through a Skype session or two so I can run you through exactly how I did all the tricks in real time.

EDIT: One of the tricks I found just recently (the rope save/load) changes RTA a little bit more over SS. If you can quick-climb any rope that might actually change routing too.

EDIT EDIT: Oh wait no it doesn't, because RTAs are timed differently from SS runs of Thief. Duh! It should still be good for segmented runs.

Here's some old notes first:

-Looks like some missions actually have less loot on hard/expert than normal! Didn't expect that. I still think running 100% on Expert only is a smart idea.

-I can tell you for sure the game draws your player model at your feet not your torso's position. Because useful.

-If you run alongside a slippery surface such as a rooftop, I wonder if you don't gain speed by jumping onto that surface, slide down and convert the sliding momentum into forwards momentum by kind of bunnyhopping? Of course the slide acceleration is probably applied in a crosswards direction but if maybe you could keep enough of it to justify the sinusoidal movement.

- I noticed if you go to in front of bay 4 in building B, on the inside, and try to reach the lock or the lever you can't reach either. If you first open the bay door you can reach both easily through the wall! When the bay door is open it also changes the sound promulgation so the sound of clicking the lock is clearly coming from the right where the bay door is. I wonder what causes the change in frobability?

- When you're on a rope and you save/load, you get sent upwards automatically! This might be something you do with every rope in segmented runs... Good thing there's no segment penalties any more.

- I was blackjacking away at an alerted guard and got him to say the following line: "You ever heard of armor taffer?"

jake: If you read the guide, you'd know how you can do that Life of the Party jump... do you want to ask something about it?

I thought we agreed ISP is segmented only? So as to not make the run RTA (any save/load counts as a reset)? Good finds though! If you have some confusion about how far into the room you can run to not lose the ISP (if you still want to mess with it), you should... well, [b]check the guide[/b]!

Here's the full [url=https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/single_segment_with_resets_now_accepted.html]low-down on SS vs. RTA[/url] that I checked out of curiosity. Based on that I don't think we ever even needed to have a discussion. This should be a pretty clear-cut case of when the resets don't add enough to the run. I guess the difference is about 4 minutes (half of the Soulforge time) but even that is all focused in the same mission.

So yeah the guide is basically ready for being split into OldDark and NewDark sections so we have an accurate map of what you guys need to be on the lookout for and what you don't. Like I said, the best way to do that is through a Skype session or two so I can run you through exactly how I did all the tricks in real time.

EDIT: One of the tricks I found just recently (the rope save/load) changes RTA a little bit more over SS. If you can quick-climb any rope that might actually change routing too.

EDIT EDIT: Oh wait no it doesn't, because RTAs are timed differently from SS runs of Thief. Duh! It should still be good for segmented runs.

jakeplissken

Edit history:

jakeplissken: 2016-01-19 03:28:46 am

jakeplissken: 2016-01-19 03:28:28 am

2016-01-19 03:26:42 am

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

I hadn't seen that particular jump before anywhere in the guide, nor have I ever seen anyone do it before, so I guess that was my bad. Looks faster for a segmented run.

I think the landscape of this game has changed with the ISP. As Paraxade said on the SS/RTA thread link (page 2):

Quote:

imo a good way to think about this is that this category is for games where resets lead to the run being significantly different - things like significant route changes or huge glitches that are only possible by resetting the game. It's not for games where resetting doesn't do anything that you can't do in-game without resets.

Previously, Thief 2 was the latter case. It was possible to get exactly the same in-game time in a single-segment run as a run that included resets. That is, quicksaving and quickloading added nothing speed-wise to the game, it was merely a means of mitigating errors that would otherwise be run-killers. But now with the introduction of the ISP, a single quicksave and quickload can knock 3-4 minutes off of the end of the run.

So while my previous position was the SS should be considered the be-all, end-all category, with this new trick I simply don't think it's possible to ignore RTA.

I think the whole RTA vs. SS thing can be settled pretty simply by just making the guidelines explicit. IE (not suggesting these should be final or anything)
- RTA is to simply beat the game as fast as possible. Quicksave/quickload, restarts, deaths, etc are all allowed, and hence ISP is allowed. In-game time is deemed irrelevant in this case.
- Single Segment disallows quicksaves/quickloads, deaths, restarts, etc. since these cause inaccuracies in the final timer, and hence ISP is disallowed. In-game time is used for final judgement of the run.

I think this is pretty much in line with many other similar games that have very accurate in-game timers. IE, we can't have a "single segment with resets" because the timer doesn't take into account the time lost when you have to reload a quicksave. There needs to be a judgement call on how such runs should be timed from start to finish.

An example of this would be Pokemon games. Races and casual runs use RTA if a console reset is necessary, because the built-in game timer no longer accurately reflects the player's actual in-game time. However, record attempts use IGT and do not allow for console resets during the run, as it would no longer be single-segment. In the case of Thief 2, quickloading also imposes an artificial inaccuracy on the in-game timer.

So the question I want to throw out for debate is: Is this singular trick at the end of the run important enough to justify the acceptance of RTA, or should it be relegated to segmented runs with Single Segment as the primary measuring stick for Thief 2 runs?

Also: I just posted a 1:00:27 RTA to Speedrun.com (57:53 IGT). Someone please beat this. I want sub 1 hour RTA to happen but I need the motivation to grind out these runs! Tongue

I hadn't seen that particular jump before anywhere in the guide, nor have I ever seen anyone do it before, so I guess that was my bad. Looks faster for a segmented run.

I think the landscape of this game has changed with the ISP. As Paraxade said on the SS/RTA thread link (page 2):

[quote]imo a good way to think about this is that this category is for games where resets lead to the run being significantly different - things like significant route changes or huge glitches that are only possible by resetting the game. It's not for games where resetting doesn't do anything that you can't do in-game without resets.[/quote]

Previously, Thief 2 was the latter case. It was possible to get exactly the same in-game time in a single-segment run as a run that included resets. That is, quicksaving and quickloading added nothing speed-wise to the game, it was merely a means of mitigating errors that would otherwise be run-killers. But now with the introduction of the ISP, a single quicksave and quickload can knock 3-4 minutes off of the end of the run.

So while my previous position was the SS should be considered the be-all, end-all category, with this new trick I simply don't think it's possible to ignore RTA.

I think the whole RTA vs. SS thing can be settled pretty simply by just making the guidelines explicit. IE (not suggesting these should be final or anything)
- RTA is to simply beat the game as fast as possible. Quicksave/quickload, restarts, deaths, etc are all allowed, and hence ISP is allowed. In-game time is deemed irrelevant in this case.
- Single Segment disallows quicksaves/quickloads, deaths, restarts, etc. since these cause inaccuracies in the final timer, and hence ISP is disallowed. In-game time is used for final judgement of the run.

I think this is pretty much in line with many other similar games that have very accurate in-game timers. IE, we can't have a "single segment with resets" because the timer doesn't take into account the time lost when you have to reload a quicksave. There needs to be a judgement call on how such runs should be timed from start to finish.

An example of this would be Pokemon games. Races and casual runs use RTA if a console reset is necessary, because the built-in game timer no longer accurately reflects the player's actual in-game time. However, record attempts use IGT and do not allow for console resets during the run, as it would no longer be single-segment. In the case of Thief 2, quickloading also imposes an artificial inaccuracy on the in-game timer.

So the question I want to throw out for debate is: Is this singular trick at the end of the run important enough to justify the acceptance of RTA, or should it be relegated to segmented runs with Single Segment as the primary measuring stick for Thief 2 runs?

Also: I just posted a 1:00:27 RTA to Speedrun.com (57:53 IGT). Someone please beat this. I want sub 1 hour RTA to happen but I need the motivation to grind out these runs! :P
[hidden]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1iumdekqGI[/hidden]

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2024-02-29 06:35:10 am

2016-01-19 11:26:53 am

Okay my bad, I dug up the wrong thread: here's the newer one. It doesn't add much to this debate though.

jake: if you've read the guide (I know it is or at least was a mess), you should know about the Lean Grab. I sometimes mark edits as "minor" when they're... well, minor, so you don't get an e-mail notification, but you can just see the last changes from "history". Using the lean grab you can do that and other tricks of the sort... Unless you were already using it?

You said it about timing: it would no longer be in-game timing, which always kinda sucks for the run timing person (but that's never been a concern for the run communities themselves). What if we allowed s/l but only for tricks, never recovering from fails? That would allow to keep the timer.

I get the feeling you don't really read my posts or the guide very carefully Tongue

I mentioned another potentially s/l enabled trick and added it into the guide. We have to find out if that's doable for you or not because that kinda stuff is pretty relevant to resolving the "true category" question. I don't understand why no-one ever reacts to this stuff - I've assumed it's because they find it doesn't work for them but I can't possibly know that can I??

Also I sense you're avoiding the question of whether you'd like to help me with this New-OldDark division in the guide. It'd only take a few sessions. If you like respond in PM and we can talk more but I'd really appreciate it.

Okay my bad, I dug up the wrong thread: [url=https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/single_segment_with_resets_now_accepted_globally_26.htmll]here's[/url] the newer one. It doesn't add much to this debate though.

jake: if you've read the guide (I know it is or at least was a mess), you should know about the Lean Grab. I sometimes mark edits as "minor" when they're... well, minor, so you don't get an e-mail notification, but you can just see the last changes from "history". Using the lean grab you can do that and other tricks of the sort... Unless you were already using it?

You said it about timing: it would no longer be in-game timing, which always kinda sucks for the run timing person (but that's never been a concern for the run communities themselves). What if we allowed s/l but only for tricks, never recovering from fails? That would allow to keep the timer.

I get the feeling you don't really read my posts or the guide very carefully :P I mentioned another potentially s/l enabled trick and added it into the guide. We have to find out if that's doable for you or not because that kinda stuff is pretty relevant to resolving the "true category" question. I don't understand why no-one ever reacts to this stuff - I've assumed it's because they find it doesn't work for them but I can't possibly know that can I??

Also I sense you're avoiding the question of whether you'd like to help me with this New-OldDark division in the guide. It'd only take a few sessions. If you like respond in PM and we can talk more but I'd really appreciate it.

OneginIII

2016-03-26 12:31:45 pm

twitch.tv/oneginiii

Okay guys, I got my sub 1 RTA run.
Link to YT:

It was a pretty solid run overall. I got factory key in Eavesdropping, but was dumb and lost like 10-20 seconds anyways. That was probably the biggest mistake in the run. I had several sub 1 pace runs even with west tower keys, so I think as long as you don't get east tower you can possibly sub 1. For reference if anyone cares my sum of bests is 58:21 just to give an idea what kind of RTA run is possible.

With that I'm done with this game for now. If new cool stuff is found I might be back. I'm also maybe doing a commentated version for YouTube, if any of you have any ideas for things I should mention about the speedrun, feel free to share.

LotBlind

2016-03-27 10:53:29 am

Do you mean that as a submittable run then? Or as-is? Do you want feedback? I'm currently neck-deep in another game and will devote attention to Thief 2 again when I can give it my full presence of mind.

OneginIII

2016-03-27 01:37:55 pm

twitch.tv/oneginiii

No, I'm not submitting it anywhere. I would just do the commentary for the fun of it, might not even happen, depends on how lazy I am. The run I got is still very improvable, and for a serious SDA submission you might want to grind it for more than a week I think Smiley

LotBlind

2016-03-28 11:53:17 am

Okay then, I'll check it out anyway in case we don't instantly get anything faster (I seldom have time for "extra" runs when even the public verification is clogged), but if you don't mind, does it have something new worth mentioning in the guide or just better execution of the old route? If you wanted to you could update the old any% SS page (even though you used resets probably), or rather create it with some basic notes that we can update later.