TASBot SGDQ 2015 feedback thread for improving future GDQ appearences

2015-08-10 12:34:01 pm

Jumping Turtle

On the TAS vs humans point, I do think it may be neat seeing TASbot race SMB1 vs Andy G or Cosmicd12. It may put them in a brighter spotlight, but just for a fun incentive sounds good, right?

dwangoAC

2015-08-10 03:12:50 pm

Keeper of TASBot

Quote from JaggerG:

On the TAS vs humans point, I do think it may be neat seeing TASbot race SMB1 vs Andy G or Cosmicd12. It may put them in a brighter spotlight, but just for a fun incentive sounds good, right?

We could have the human runner up against TASBot with the human trying to be within x seconds of the fastest known, to show how good the humans are (insanely good). The downside is it's still prone to shaming the human if done poorly, but this could be a good donation incentive...

Habreno

Edit history:

Habreno: 2015-08-10 08:18:53 pm

2015-08-10 08:16:12 pm

Quote from dwangoAC:

Quote from JaggerG:

On the TAS vs humans point, I do think it may be neat seeing TASbot race SMB1 vs Andy G or Cosmicd12. It may put them in a brighter spotlight, but just for a fun incentive sounds good, right?

We could have the human runner up against TASBot with the human trying to be within x seconds of the fastest known, to show how good the humans are (insanely good). The downside is it's still prone to shaming the human if done poorly, but this could be a good donation incentive...

What if you put up an incentive that there is a race, and once met, a second incentive for giving the human an X second head start for every $Y raised?

dwangoAC

2015-08-10 10:19:31 pm

Keeper of TASBot

Quote from Habreno:

What if you put up an incentive that there is a race, and once met, a second incentive for giving the human an X second head start for every $Y raised?

Oooh, this is a great idea! Or even more evil, it could be like save/kill the animals where it starts with 10 seconds for the human and people can add or remove 60ths of a second / a frame for every $100 donated either direction with the values canceling each other out, i.e. if "More time" gets $10k and "Less time" gets $8k you'd end up with 100 seconds - 80 seconds = 20 seconds, for a total of 30 seconds extra total for the human. This could work... Any volunteers to run against TASBot on a particular game? Smiley

JaggerG

2015-08-10 11:57:51 pm

Jumping Turtle

The reason I brought up SMB1 is because they pretty often get really close to 5 minutes even, and at one point those particular runners had PBs about 6 frames off the old TAS. Maybe something like Mike Tyson's Punch-Out could be good, too?

dangodofthunder

2015-08-11 10:55:14 am

Quote from JaggerG:

On the TAS vs humans point, I do think it may be neat seeing TASbot race SMB1 vs Andy G or Cosmicd12. It may put them in a brighter spotlight, but just for a fun incentive sounds good, right?

I am of the opinion that the twitch community at large would interpret this as self congraulatory [term for obscene gestures] by the TAS community showing their superiority over human runners, even though we've discussed the great lengths that both communities have put into collaboration.

At best, it'd be a John Henry like allegory. At worst, it'd be a demonstration of the superiority of machines and programming over human skill. Put me down as someone who dislikes this idea.

Bismuth

2015-08-11 11:10:48 am

Worthless categories WR master

I really doubt having the runners be live and everyone being together would give this vibe at all. It would take someone major misunderstanding of the atmosphere to have the feeling that we're shaming real-time runners. That being said, I've seen people say that couch commentators are "competitors who run the game who get put on the couch of a guy they don't really know as a consolation prize" so I guess anything's possible.

FillInTheBlank

2015-08-12 04:57:06 am

Quote from dwangoAC:

incorrect references to "last year was awesome, this year sucked" even though the AGDQ 2015 TAS block was only 6 months ago

You do know "last year" is referring to AGDQ2014 which was last year.

AGDQ2014 showing even disregarding the total control portion of SMW was better the the SGDQ2015 showing by a far stretch.
It included games well known by the community with some nice commentary.

There plenty of TAS runs vastly more entertaining than Ikaruga (or any SHMUP for that matter) that you could have shown.
TASblock doesn't have to 1-up the end of 2015 or 2014 but it at least has to be entertaining through-out which it failed to do so this SGDQ.

JaggerG

2015-08-12 10:15:25 am

Jumping Turtle

Maybe some meant 2014, but generally, the AGDQ2015 TASblock had been pretty highly regarded, too.

presjpolk

2015-08-12 10:44:00 am

HELLO!

Basically the people raving about the previous marathons didn't actually want to see TASed gameplay. They wanted to see ACEs.

dwangoAC

2015-08-12 11:05:45 am

Keeper of TASBot

Quote from FillInTheBlank:

There plenty of TAS runs vastly more entertaining than Ikaruga (or any SHMUP for that matter) that you could have shown.

I've noticed a large amount of division when it comes to SHMUP's - I've received some passionate feedback from people who were downright overjoyed that SHMUP's were represented with comments that GDQ's should have more of them, but I've received twice that many (less passionate) responses saying SHMUP's are a poor choice. It seems like a love it or hate it category, to say the least. In retrospect, Ikaruga should have been before Sonic Advance and possibly could have benefited from an additional couch commentator (although I think ShinerCCC did fine).

Please note that we pitched a number of games in the TAS submission and the game selection committee for SGDQ 2015 picked Ikaruga out of our submissions, so there was at least some intentional planning outside of my involvement that put it on the schedule. I'm getting the general feeling that Ikaruga would be getting similar feedback even if it had been done in realtime as it's just one of those categories that's a love-it-or-hate-it scenario. For those who were passionate I'm actually glad it made it in, although I don't anticipate pitching another SHMUP anytime soon (even Gradius).

Quote from presjpolk:

Basically the people raving about the previous marathons didn't actually want to see TASed gameplay. They wanted to see ACEs.

Right, and I didn't give them what they wanted. I expect SGDQ events will always disappoint that crowd as there's no way to sustain a new major breakthrough every 6 months but I suspect we can decidedly blow their minds again at AGDQ 2016 if what we're planning pans out.

[quote="FillInTheBlank"]There plenty of TAS runs vastly more entertaining than Ikaruga (or any SHMUP for that matter) that you could have shown.[/quote]

I've noticed a large amount of division when it comes to SHMUP's - I've received some passionate feedback from people who were downright overjoyed that SHMUP's were represented with comments that GDQ's should have more of them, but I've received twice that many (less passionate) responses saying SHMUP's are a poor choice.  It seems like a love it or hate it category, to say the least.  In retrospect, Ikaruga should have been before Sonic Advance and possibly could have benefited from an additional couch commentator (although I think ShinerCCC did fine).

Please note that we pitched a number of games in the TAS submission and the game selection committee for SGDQ 2015 picked Ikaruga out of our submissions, so there was at least some intentional planning outside of my involvement that put it on the schedule.  I'm getting the general feeling that Ikaruga would be getting similar feedback even if it had been done in realtime as it's just one of those categories that's a love-it-or-hate-it scenario.  For those who were passionate I'm actually glad it made it in, although I don't anticipate pitching another SHMUP anytime soon (even Gradius).

[quote="presjpolk"]Basically the people raving about the previous marathons didn't actually want to see TASed gameplay. They wanted to see ACEs.[/quote]

Right, and I didn't give them what they wanted.  I expect SGDQ events will always disappoint that crowd as there's no way to sustain a new major breakthrough every 6 months but I suspect we can decidedly blow their minds again at AGDQ 2016 if what we're planning pans out.

Blubbler

2015-08-13 03:51:27 am

Quote from JaggerG:

and at one point those particular runners had PBs about 6 frames off the old TAS

No, it's over 3 seconds. I don't know where people get this "6 frames" myth from. And if you use no reset strats it becomes more like 10 seconds. Here is an RTA vs TAS comparison, but you can't play that well in one attempt.

Judgy

Edit history:

Judgy: 2015-08-13 05:19:07 am

Judgy: 2015-08-13 05:08:13 am

Judgy: 2015-08-13 05:05:28 am

2015-08-13 05:04:43 am

Borderlands 2 Glitch Hunter/ router.

Personally I think the TAS block was great but personally I have a lot of love for what TAS' are. Namely because I do a hell of a lot more Game breaking / routing than I do actual running so I can appreciate the effort that goes in.

I loved Ikaruga, probably because I've played it and know how difficult of a game it is, however I could see why some people not familiar with it would find it tedious simply due to the fact it doesn't look quick, it does look technically imprerssive but not quick.
Mega Man was awesome, not much else to say on that, Sonic was a good idea to show original Hardware VS Camera lag compensation.

all-in-all I think that the TAS block is always impressive but it's down to how you think of speedruns, from a more analytical / Game-braker mindset you think "holy shit that's awesome" but to appeal to everyone you need some kind of perfect WOW-Factor + Look's Impressive + Well known game + Crowd understanding of what TAS is about (which people seem to overlook for some stupid reason) which sadly is a tall order.

my Favourite TAS is Killer Instinct, why? : Because I know the game, It looks impressive (and the combo system of the game helps it do that), it looks quick, it doesn't have WOW! so much as it has funny moments like getting enemies to dance instead of die and stage related special kills. (that and the "ULTRA!!, ULTRA, ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra" "SUPREME VICTORY!" and "PERFECT!" that you know chat would love :D) but for all I like it not everyone else will much with any game at the marathon.

For reference -->

Personally I think the TAS block was great but personally I have a lot of love for what TAS' are. Namely because I do a hell of a lot more Game breaking / routing than I do actual running so I can appreciate the effort that goes in.

I loved Ikaruga, probably because I've played it and know how difficult of a game it is, however I could see why some people not familiar with it would find it tedious simply due to the fact it doesn't look quick, it does look technically imprerssive but not quick.
Mega Man was awesome, not much else to say on that, Sonic was a good idea to show original Hardware VS Camera lag compensation.

all-in-all I think that the TAS block is always impressive but it's down to how you think of speedruns, from a more analytical / Game-braker mindset you think "holy shit that's awesome" but to appeal to everyone you need some kind of perfect WOW-Factor + Look's Impressive + Well known game + Crowd understanding of what TAS is about (which people seem to overlook for some stupid reason) which sadly is a tall order.

my Favourite TAS is Killer Instinct, why? : Because I know the game, It looks impressive (and the combo system of the game helps it do that), it looks quick, it doesn't have WOW! so much as it has funny moments like getting enemies to dance instead of die and stage related special kills. (that and the "ULTRA!!, ULTRA, ultra, ultra, [size="12"]ultra, ultra[/size]" "SUPREME VICTORY!" and "PERFECT!" that you know chat would love :D) but for all I like it not everyone else will much with any game at the marathon.

For reference --> 
https://youtu.be/HlyGXKcIUfc

Jepty

2015-08-13 09:05:03 am

For me, this TAS Block was good.
Megaman 1 and Sonic Advanced were both really good showings to show how far a TAS can take a game. With Megaman 1 being particularly broken and Sonic Advanced being really fast.
Ikaruga was a bit slow, but I can see why it was impressive. It was just too long for what it was worth imo.
The Tas'ing competition was a really good idea that I wouldn't mind seeing again, just make it more organized.
The obvious missing thing was the ACE's and just insane screwing-up of games without it being an actual speedrun. But at the same time AGDQ 2015 was missing speedruns. The only TAS Block that combined both was AGDQ 2014. Which I found having both to be better than just 1 or the other.
Overall, like I said at the start. The TASBlock was good. But it could've been better.
(Probably missing something, will edit post later if I want to add anything)

JaggerG

Edit history:

JaggerG: 2015-08-13 03:25:09 pm

2015-08-13 03:23:31 pm

Jumping Turtle

Quote from Blubbler:

Quote from JaggerG:

and at one point those particular runners had PBs about 6 frames off the old TAS

No, it's over 3 seconds. I don't know where people get this "6 frames" myth from. And if you use no reset strats it becomes more like 10 seconds. Here is an RTA vs TAS comparison, but you can't play that well in one attempt.

Ohhh. Maybe someone meant a theory-TAS, doing everything they attempted perfectly, but not things like turn-jumping at the start or the bullet bill clip?

That does change things completely.

Raelcun

2015-08-16 06:13:53 am

We require more minerals

While it's good to see you so open to feedback, and realizing that there are things to improve, I feel like you also need to be careful not to be too hard on yourself. Even while we were practicing in the private practice room, it seemed as if you had extremely high expectations of yourself for not having prepared what you want to say in advance.

I would recommend writing out basic explanations of what you want to say, not going into pure detail, but at least outlining everything you want to say in advance, just to help yourself plan it out a little bit. If you plan it out, even loosely, you should have an easier time remembering to say most of what you wanted to. And even if you do forget a few things, just make sure you don't get too hard on yourself.

BaronHaynes

Edit history:

BaronHaynes: 2015-08-22 12:44:22 am

2015-08-22 12:43:05 am

Strange days, incredible days

I have no idea how this would play, but something I think might be interesting is the following side-by-side comparison:

Screen 1: A high-level player of a NES platformer does IL attempts of a short stage on emulator, recording the input file and trying to set the fastest time they can.
Screen 2: Someone TASes the stage frame by frame.

The commentary would focus on the differences of the two methods, particularly what is possible with frame-advance and having access to in-game memory/RNG manipulation vs. what is feasible in real-time and the tradeoffs that have to be made to ever get an attempt to finish. At the end of the session, the finished TAS and the fastest completed RTA would be played back simultaneously.

There's a lot of logistics to work out to make sure the commentary is entertaining and informative without getting bogged down, the game/runner/stage would have to be balanced and well-chosen so it's not too difficult to get some completed runs, the presentation itself doesn't take more than 8-12 minutes (or thereabouts), the TASer knows how to do the stage already and can put the inputs together reasonably fast, etc. It's not as flashy as ACE, but it would show the complimentary aspects of TAS and RTA as well as their differences in the clearest way possible for the majority of viewers who aren't as familiar with either as a lot of the speedrunning community. As part of a larger presentation I think something like this could fit in well.

Whether the TAS route and the RTA route are similar except for the level of execution, or drastically different based on what's viable with frame advance could make for 2 really instructive demonstrations for different reasons. I'm not sure which would be better, but I'm sure there's a stage out there that has a combination of both.

I have no idea how this would play, but something I think might be interesting is the following side-by-side comparison:

Screen 1: A high-level player of a NES platformer does IL attempts of a short stage on emulator, recording the input file and trying to set the fastest time they can.
Screen 2: Someone TASes the stage frame by frame.

The commentary would focus on the differences of the two methods, particularly what is possible with frame-advance and having access to in-game memory/RNG manipulation vs. what is feasible in real-time and the tradeoffs that have to be made to ever get an attempt to finish. At the end of the session, the finished TAS and the fastest completed RTA would be played back simultaneously.

There's a lot of logistics to work out to make sure the commentary is entertaining and informative without getting bogged down, the game/runner/stage would have to be balanced and well-chosen so it's not too difficult to get some completed runs, the presentation itself doesn't take more than 8-12 minutes (or thereabouts), the TASer knows how to do the stage already and can put the inputs together reasonably fast, etc. It's not as flashy as ACE, but it would show the complimentary aspects of TAS and RTA as well as their differences in the clearest way possible for the majority of viewers who aren't as familiar with either as a lot of the speedrunning community. As part of a larger presentation I think something like this could fit in well.

Whether the TAS route and the RTA route are similar except for the level of execution, or drastically different based on what's viable with frame advance could make for 2 really instructive demonstrations for different reasons. I'm not sure which would be better, but I'm sure there's a stage out there that has a combination of both.