Super Mario Bros. 2

2005-07-23 09:16:41 pm

Talk to the Hand

Quote:

I don't think my Wart fighting technique is slower than tmont's. However, tmont was given the first vegetable much earlier than I was, and Wart didn't pop it like he almost always does for me... Even when I do get the early veggie, Wart almost always pops one during the fight.

I watched tmont's video again. You're right; other than the early first vegetable he gets, your times are about the same. My apologies; for some reason I thought he grabbed and quickly flung the vegetables all during one "Open mouth sequence" of Wart's.

mjf314

2005-07-23 09:17:34 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I don't think my Wart fighting technique is slower than tmont's.

I think there's a set amount of time between when you get each vegetable, so as long as none of them get destroyed by a bubble, I think all that matters is when you hit him with the last vegetable.

sarou

Edit history:

sarou: 2005-07-24 11:20:38 pm

2005-07-24 11:18:54 pm

one-armed bandit

nice run there sdkess! Tongue

now who's up for jumping over the quicksand thingy Smiley

btw: so TG approves "running-faster-while-carrying" Toad but doesn't approve doublejumping when it does not help you at all Smiley

andrewg

2005-07-25 04:27:47 am

Hi! I'm andrewg!

yeah i do not think tg will except the tape just for that double jump, i have done that once in a video about 10:39 long i think, i didn't realize it until i watched the video again. i am glad you figured out how to do 1-1 faster, i get about 59 seconds i think finishing the level about every time, i didn't know you could jump over the pillar in 7-1 without a superjump, but i am hesitated to do it because i think i will mess up. i think if i didn't screw up jumping on top of the ceiling, i could definately get about a 10minute run. hope i can do that soon. Smiley

i really think that the double jump should be allowed in this case, considering you did not save any time, and you did it by accident, that would stink if TG doesn't accept it.

SKYWALKR

2005-07-25 07:33:57 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Ok. Prove that something you did in a run was done by accident.

Pjotr_V

2005-07-25 08:53:37 am

Quote:

Ok. Prove that something you did in a run was done by accident.

You can prove it isn't an accident, because

1. In this topic Sdkess is right from the beginning talking about TG and he knows doublejumping isn't allowed, he would be very stupid if he did it on purpose

2. If he was stupid and did it on purpose, he didn't do it on the right place, because with this accident he actually doesn't save time, he is loosing some (maybe less than a second), so why should he have done it on that particular place

3. He told it directly when he has done it to TG, hoping that TG would understand him. You wouldn't do that if it was on purpose

Now I think it's ridiculous that TG is such a stubborn place, but ok, I think Sdkess will deserve his record anyways when he is making a new one or sending a 10:37!

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2005-07-25 08:00:49 pm

2005-07-25 03:44:23 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

you know what is really funny, i posted almost the exact thing you wrote at TG

"you can tell it was by accident, it did not save any time, scott, being as good as you are at this game, i am sure you could improve. you must have anohter run that is like 10minutes 30-40 seconds. i would send that to TG instead if you cant improve on your new time. SDA will still accept your run though.

i know for a fact it was by accident, if he were to let go of B at that exact moment he did the double jump he would have been fine, and also would have actually saved time if he hadn't done it. if he didn't done it by accident, then is his purpose to waste time, obviously he made a mistake and that is very unfortunate. on SDA scott also stated he wanted to send it to TG so he would not do the double jump during his run."
my quote at TG.

EDIT: ok i just got a 10:31. it is only 5 seconds slower than scott's run, but unfortunately scott did a double jump in. i missed wart once, and if i hadn't my time would have been around 10:21. the vegetable did not pop up right when i got to the screen, which was unfortunate.

i think when i make a copy of this tape, i will see if i can get it captured online. i am hioping eventually i will be able to get about 10 minutes.

scott, what is your best time besides your 10:26? also, will you try to beat my record on TG once i send in this tape?

you know what is really funny, i posted almost the exact thing you wrote at TG

"you can tell it was by accident, it did not save any time, scott, being as good as you are at this game, i am sure you could improve. you must have anohter run that is like 10minutes 30-40 seconds. i would send that to TG instead if you cant improve on your new time. SDA will still accept your run though.

i know for a fact it was by accident, if he were to let go of B at that exact moment he did the double jump he would have been fine, and also would have actually saved time if he hadn't done it. if he didn't done it by accident, then is his purpose to waste time, obviously he made a mistake and that is very unfortunate. on SDA scott also stated he wanted to send it to TG so he would not do the double jump during his run."
my quote at TG.

EDIT: ok i just got a 10:31. it is only 5 seconds slower than scott's run, but unfortunately scott did a double jump in. i missed wart once, and if i hadn't my time would have been around 10:21. the vegetable did not pop up right when i got to the screen, which was unfortunate.

i think when i make a copy of this tape, i will see if i can get it captured online. i am hioping eventually i will be able to get about 10 minutes.

scott, what is your best time besides your 10:26? also, will you try to beat my record on TG once i send in this tape?

Emptyeye Is Not Fired Yet

2005-07-25 08:24:04 pm

While diligently performing the tasks required by my job (Yes, that's the ticket....), I thought of something.

The double jump discussion is irrelevant to this specific instance. Scott's run wouldn't have been accepted even if he didn't double jump.

The reason is that one of the TG rules quirks is that several seconds preceeding power-up AND FOLLOWING POWER OFF has to be recorded for the run to count. I don't know what would be detected at power-off that wouldn't at power-on (And now I truthfully can't even find where I read it, but I'll try to dig it up when I have more time), but I had a discussion with the NES TG referee where he says as much. Scott has already stated that the tape runs out before the ending completes (And logically before power-off), so this entire discussion is moot.

But anyway, removing that particular bit from the discussion, my long-story-short version (Yes, I really am posting this from work. ;)) is that, while the letter of the law was broken, there's also a spirit of the law, if you will, that's not being considered on TG's behalf, and the run should be accepted on grounds already mentioned by others.

While diligently performing the tasks required by my job (Yes, that's the ticket....), I thought of something.

The double jump discussion is irrelevant to this specific instance. Scott's run wouldn't have been accepted even if he didn't double jump.

The reason is that one of the TG rules quirks is that several seconds preceeding power-up AND FOLLOWING POWER OFF has to be recorded for the run to count. I don't know what would be detected at power-off that wouldn't at power-on (And now I truthfully can't even find where I read it, but I'll try to dig it up when I have more time), but I had a discussion with the NES TG referee where he says as much. Scott has already stated that the tape runs out before the ending completes (And logically before power-off), so this entire discussion is moot.

But anyway, removing that particular bit from the discussion, my long-story-short version (Yes, I really am posting this from work. ;)) is that, while the letter of the law was broken, there's also a spirit of the law, if you will, that's not being considered on TG's behalf, and the run should be accepted on grounds already mentioned by others.

andrewg

2005-07-25 08:49:30 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

i did not record a power-off. so does that mean TG will not accept my run? TG neveer told me about any power-off that had to be made in order to get the record. the power-on should be enough to tell that they used an original console.

sdkess

2005-07-25 09:59:20 pm

Jungle Rat

Hmm, this is the first that I've heard of the power-off thing. I've submitted plenty of runs to TG where I didn't tape the power-off. Usually I hit stop on the VCR after the ending of the game is finished without turning off the console. I wonder if I should start powering off before I hit stop from now on...

What got me on the tape running out is that I'm used to T-160 (8 hour) tapes. I forgot that this tape was T-120. I thought that I still had plenty of tape left! My heart skipped a beat when I saw the VCR go into Rewind during the cast listing at the end of the game!

Andrew, I have a 10:35 on the same tape maybe an hour earlier with no DJs. This was actually a good run too, but Wart destroyed two of my veggies which cost me dearly. If I do another run with a better 1-1 and a lucky Wart fight, I could possibly get into the 10:15 range. I still don't see myself getting sub-10 minutes.

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2005-07-25 10:28:02 pm

2005-07-25 10:04:25 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

hmmm... well i am only thinking i get below 10minutes, if the vegetable pops up right when i get onto the screen with wart, and also no vegetables get destroyed, in my 10:31 run, i had 2 vegetables destroyed and i also missed wart one time! if i could finish the last level in about 2 minutes maybe a little more, then i could probably get below 10minutes.

i dont think you actually have to record power-off now, i dont think it is required.

Emptyeye

Edit history:

Emptyeye: 2005-07-25 10:43:56 pm

2005-07-25 10:41:04 pm

Talk to the Hand

Hmm, interesting.

I know I picked it up from somewhere...here's the PM conversation between the ref and I (Well, the relevant part):

Quote:

2. How important is the capture of the power-off process to record verification? I have a run for a track that's not even official yet, but in an effort to fill out the rest of the tape, started recording something else a little earlier than I thought on the tape. You can see the power off, but it only runs for a second or so before it switches to what I started to record next. >_<

It's quite important, in all honesty... BUT I would literally have to see to make the best judgement.

EDIT: apparently the board doesn't like it when I do quotes within quotes.
So yeah.

SKYWALKR

2005-07-26 04:10:58 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

So by Pjotr's argument, a glitch CAN be in a run as long as it doesn't help you, or, by logical deduction, hinders your time. So it would be ok if I did a wall jump, by accident, that cost me a life in a SMB1 run. Seems like there's a lot to be "interpreted".

I think this glitch is much too easy to perform by accident. I stated earlier that I wasn't very good at doing the double jump. Well, when I tried to play the game just the other day, I noticed that it's REALLY easy to do. So easy in fact, that I did it "by accident" in a whole lot of places. Off ladders, which is how the shortcut in 7-2 is done, isn't it? I think that Sleepz had an interesting point on the TG forum about sdkess's run. As such, I think that the double jump is much more like the mockball trick in Super Metroid and should be allowed. Those who read TG, and support it, should lobby for this glitch to be used in legitimate runs.

Gorash

2005-07-26 10:29:32 am

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What's missing here is a general anatomy of glitches. Maybe someone double jump in mario2 and mock ball in Metroid do have much in common, but there is no formal classification of glitches yet, is there?

andrewg

Edit history:

andrewg: 2005-07-26 04:04:03 pm

2005-07-26 04:03:48 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

i am not sure if TG would consider jumping off of latters as double jumps, since you are only doing one jump, even though that is what it is. i think they should allow a double jump if it does not make you gain time at TG. it can happen very easily, you can determine whether or not it actually gained time at all. what if i did a double jump after beating wart, would my run be disqualified at TG?

SKYWALKR

2005-07-26 10:40:45 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

andrewg: So you admit that the shortcut used in 7-2 to go over the ceiling and collect the key early is a double jump off the ladder, and therefore does not qualify for a TG record.

Gorash: But the mockballl is a glitch that is permissable at TG.

Gorash

2005-07-27 02:28:01 am

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Just realized that I wrote total bull in my last post... it was 11am and I didn't have had a single coffee, my apologies.

What I meant to say is:
Screw TG. Glitches are fun, one just shouldn't exaggerate it.
From my point of view mock ball and double jump are clearly the same kind of glitch, an unforeseen condition in transitional state physics leading to an exploitable behaviour. Not only the glitch is similar, the behaviour on game play is also similar, it's a not easily to pull off extension to the moves, which lets you bypass certain barriers in the game you're not supposed to bypass.
If TG allows one but bannes the other it's inconsistent, or plain arbitrary.

If a list of properties of bugs exist, and one sees that bug A is allowed, and newly discovered bug B is almost the same just for another game, than it common sense tells me to allow B as well, at least that's the base on which bugs were discussed until now.

What's missing is the formal bug theory. Wink

Yoshi348

2005-07-27 03:37:26 am

dinosaur from the past

It's inconsistant in as much as you having different people making the rules for each game. It's the system that's stupid, not a person.

Except for that guy who ruled against using "THEIF" in LA. That's just stupid.

tmont

2005-07-27 06:49:29 am

Not going to school today

Quote:

i am not sure if TG would consider jumping off of latters as double jumps, since you are only doing one jump, even though that is what it is.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I've become pretty adept at both the double jump and the ladder jump, and I think I can state with certainty that the ladder jump is not a double jump. As far as I can tell, you can only do double jumps off of moving objects (like enemies or Birdo's eggs). I've never been able to execute a double jump off of a wall or anything like that. I think the ladder jump glitch is executed the same way as when you jump into the wall (which I have done on accident hundreds of times, but I can never do it if I try): if you catch that 16th pixel perfectly, the game thinks you have landed on a horizontal ledge, when in fact it's not (I think that's how it works). I know for a fact that you can only execute the ladder jumps at certain intervals on the ladder; I would imagine they're in 16-pixel intervals. But it's my opinion that the double jump is slightly different from the ladder jump because I've never been able to do it off of anything inanimate.

And dude, we're jumping off ladders.

[quote]i am not sure if TG would consider jumping off of latters as double jumps, since you are only doing one jump, even though that is what it is. [/quote]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there.  I've become pretty adept at both the double jump and the ladder jump, and I think I can state with certainty that the ladder jump is not a double jump.  As far as I can tell, you can only do double jumps off of moving objects (like enemies or Birdo's eggs).  I've never been able to execute a double jump off of a wall or anything like that.  I think the ladder jump glitch is executed the same way as when you jump into the wall (which I have done on accident hundreds of times, but I can never do it if I try): if you catch that 16th pixel perfectly, the game thinks you have landed on a horizontal ledge, when in fact it's not (I think that's how it works).  I know for a fact that you can only execute the ladder jumps at certain intervals on the ladder; I would imagine they're in 16-pixel intervals.  But it's my opinion that the double jump is slightly different from the ladder jump because I've never been able to do it off of anything inanimate.

And dude, we're jumping off [i]ladders[/i].

sdkess

2005-07-27 01:16:15 pm

Jungle Rat

Quote:

I think I can state with certainty that the ladder jump is not a double jump.

I was about to say the same thing. In fact, I'm not so sure that the ladder jump is even a glitch. Quite a few games allow you to jump off ladders or other climbing objects, and I always assumed it was an intentional move in this game. It's quite easy to do, and I remember really needing it in World 5 (I think). Some of the areas in those levels are practically begging you to ladder (vine) jump! For whatever reason, ladder jumping seems easier with Luigi than it is with Toad.

You're right about the double jump only working on "enemy" objects. You can stand on the ground or on enemies, and it's clear that the game code has separate logical mechanisms for these two situations. The DJ glitch only works when the game is fooled into thinking you have landed on an enemy. I presume that there's some logic that detects when you step off an enemy, but this logic never gets tested because you're in the air.

This is all just speculation of course. It's probably possible to find out for sure using an emulator.

[quote]I think I can state with certainty that the ladder jump is not a double jump.[/quote]
I was about to say the same thing. In fact, I'm not so sure that the ladder jump is even a glitch. Quite a few games allow you to jump off ladders or other climbing objects, and I always assumed it was an intentional move in this game. It's quite easy to do, and I remember really needing it in World 5 (I think). Some of the areas in those levels are practically begging you to ladder (vine) jump! For whatever reason, ladder jumping seems easier with Luigi than it is with Toad.

You're right about the double jump only working on "enemy" objects. You can stand on the ground or on enemies, and it's clear that the game code has separate logical mechanisms for these two situations. The DJ glitch only works when the game is fooled into thinking you have landed on an enemy. I presume that there's some logic that detects when you step off an enemy, but this logic never gets tested because you're in the air.

This is all just speculation of course. It's probably possible to find out for sure using an emulator.

sdkess

2005-07-28 09:25:13 pm

Jungle Rat

I already posted this elsewhere, but my best time is now 10:14. This run was beautiful until I got to 7-2... I made a horrible mistake there which cost me roughly 5 seconds, and my Wart fight was fairly unlucky.

My consistency has gotten really good so maybe I'll be able to finish a tight run with a lucky ending before I get bored and quit playing.

andrewg

2005-07-29 12:59:01 am

Hi! I'm andrewg!

yeah, i keep getting bored of it and then start playing tetris, i suprised myself on how well i did. i got 174 lines!

KennyMan666

2005-07-29 01:32:23 am

Precursor

Do you think it's possible to shave off another 15 seconds on that?

I'd love to see a sub-10 run.

andrewg

2005-07-29 01:33:40 am

Hi! I'm andrewg!

yeah, i am pretty sure it can be done. i really am hoping to get below 10minutes.

Radix

2005-07-29 02:14:39 am

I'm addicted to games

*cough* psychological effect *cough*