Secret of Mana

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-10-21 06:42:17 pm

2005-10-21 05:44:25 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Watching on so you don't have to... Roll Eyes

Segment 5:
- I think you could have easily made an additional level here and there by finishing off the monsters you used to level undine. But you don't seem to need the exp anyway...
- Good to see you get all those AI glitches too. It's really annoying if your heros get stuck in a wall because the AI forgot about it when it moved them there.
- I wonder why you level the moon spirit (Luna?) so much... I do have a theory and if that proves right I'll be rolling on the floor for half an hour.

Segment 6:
- Screw the "2 hit = death" rule. 560+ dam in one blow from a normal enemy and 980+ from a boss. That's enough to blow you straight past the next world into the world after next. Grin

- Weird thing with the fire dragon. I don't remember that being normal.

Segment 7:
- You forgive me if I speed that segment a bit up, no?
- A quick summary for everyone: leveling the girls luna to lv4, the shadow element (nocturne?) to lv3 and dryad for both to lv4. Also grades up the sword to lv8.

Up for the finale grane... Smiley

Watching on so you don't have to...  ::)

Segment 5:
- I think you could have easily made an additional level here and there by finishing off the monsters you used to level undine. But you don't seem to need the exp anyway...
- Good to see you get all those AI glitches too. It's really annoying if your heros get stuck in a wall because the AI forgot about it when it moved them there.
- I wonder why you level the moon spirit (Luna?) so much... I do have a theory and if that proves right I'll be rolling on the floor for half an hour.

Segment 6:
- Screw the "2 hit = death" rule. 560+ dam in one blow from a normal enemy and 980+ from a boss. That's enough to blow you straight past the next world into the world after next. ;D
- Weird thing with the fire dragon. I don't remember that being normal.

Segment 7:
- You forgive me if I speed that segment a bit up, no?
- A quick summary for everyone: leveling the girls luna to lv4, the shadow element (nocturne?) to lv3 and dryad for both to lv4. Also grades up the sword to lv8.

Up for the finale grane... :)

Saturn

2005-10-21 06:14:29 pm

Great to see this run finally beeing up here, I will check it out!

Sir VG

2005-10-21 06:42:04 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote:

Watching segment 2 now.
- A few wasted seconds because you didn't go shopping before saving.. :(. Next time you know better.

Actually, he had to go back to Neko anyways, since otherwise it would be save warping, a Radix rule violation. So it didn't matter if he shopped before or after the save.

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-10-21 07:25:24 pm

2005-10-21 06:43:08 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Yeah I realized that later, when he was running to the bed at the start of every segment.

Segment 8:
- I wonder if the nocturne leveling could have been omitted...
- don't want to spoil it, but there's a candidate for most daring moments...
- Uhhh. Yes, the special animations after lv8 are deadly.
- Hehehe, you don't hesitate to ridicule the game physics in cutscenes. Smiley

- And finished it. Very nice last fight, got you down on everything.

The main point of improvement from my side would be to cut the luna leveling in segment 5, and them merge that with the luna leveling in segment 7 instead of nocturne, which would be dropped completely and would start with lv1 in the boss fight. Can someone tell me if that would be possible?

Radix

Edit history:

Radix: 2005-10-22 09:19:45 pm

2005-10-22 09:19:31 pm

I'm addicted to games

Quote:

Yeah I realized that later, when he was running to the bed at the start of every segment.

Uh, no... did anyone read my news update?

Only at the end of segment 2 does he actually sleep at the inn, in 3-7 he just saves. Yet in every load he wanders over to the bed, switches character and leaves. Why not just leave!?!?

Faskalia

2005-10-22 09:49:49 pm

Good move, on adding a torrent-file btw Kiss

Only 4:30 at 100kb/s left.

I am wondering how your Spikey fight went

Gorash

2005-10-22 09:50:57 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

I admit it, I only read "Secret of Mana" and skipped reading the rest of your update. Shame on me.

Enhasa

2005-10-23 02:57:05 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I have to admit, when the news page loaded up and I saw Secret of Mana followed by 5:15, I raised an eyebrow and was a bit disappointed. I mean, marsh's Chrono Trigger run might be less than that. Anyway I watched up to Spiky Tiger, seeked around a little on some later segments, and stopped, but I think I can still answer some questions here. If I don't bring something up, it's probably because I agree and have nothing to add.

Quote:

- Very nice tiger fight. Do you just have insane reflexes or did you memorize the time he needs to recover from your hit and start his "roll-around-in-frenzy" attack?

Reflexes, it's not hard. When he's about to start rolling, that's when you use your item. Although I wondered why you didn't use Medical Herbs instead of the Candies whenever you were at full health.

Quote:

- Boss fight before undine shows us again all facettes of the AI </sarcasm>

seiken actually takes the time to set all his guys to the bottom right corner for maximum passiveness. I agree with running through dungeons, but in situations like this, it does seem pretty suboptimal.

Quote:

- You lucky french people who don't have to stand the german translation...

To an English speaker who doesn't know French but knows the game well, it is awesome seeing it in French. "BRAVO !!" "Obtenu Sphère de l'Epée" and my favorite: "Bonbon / D'accord ? / Merci !" I passed the AP German exam back in high school, so I think in a different way I would enjoy seeing something in German as well.

Quote:

- This is getting very interesting. The two hit = death rule seems to be getting standard for your run. Krabbe gets whipped on every enemy ;D. Eager to see the rest.

All in all, I was very... uh, impressed... at seiken's cavalier attitude towards dying at every turn. I know I would have used more segments and reloaded instead of taking some of these time and money wasting deaths.

Quote:

- What's with that invisible chest in the ruins? Is it always there or only if you missed a sword orb before?

In general, this game is pretty glitchy, and especially with orbs. My friend's cart had a glitch where there was this rock or something in front of a stairway somewhere, and he literally could not complete the game. At first I thought he must have missed something, but it really was true.

Quote:

- In retrospect, you used the diamond spell so much to get past annoying enemies, you could have omitted most of the leveling at the armor knights.

I haven't examined the issue here, but I imagine the main reason why this time could be lower (as in many RPG runs) is less leveling.

Quote:

- Didn't know the easy method for the doppelgänger either. Always learning new stuff...

I found this one out by getting people killed in a low level run while normally playing. Here's one that isn't useful but you might not know: people know that Mantis Ant is unloseable, but the same is also true for Santa Claus. Of course, nobody ever actually loses to him.

Quote:

2. Why not this ice blade-spell for everyone? Frozen enemies can't move, so you don't have problems with passing them.

Due to hit stun, you don't have trouble passing anybody really.

Quote:

Watching on so you don't have to... Roll Eyes

Thanks!

Quote:

- Good to see you get all those AI glitches too. It's really annoying if your heros get stuck in a wall because the AI forgot about it when it moved them there.

God, this game is so glitchy. I've had guys stuck in the walls hundreds of times, but luckily there's usually something you can do, either with auto-warping to switches, magic rope, or Flammie. Once though, I got a level 9 weapon orb, got completely stuck, and decided it was time to move on quit cold turkey and move on to another game.

Quote:

- don't want to spoil it, but there's a candidate for most daring moments...

I tried to find what you're talking about, but I don't think that was really daring. Like most RPGs, poison can only knock you to 1. The only thing dangerous at all was getting past that final regular enemy. The funny part was, not reviving there didn't save any time because he just revived later. I guess taking completely unnecessary risks is the hallmark of being daring.

Quote:

- Hehehe, you don't hesitate to ridicule the game physics in cutscenes. Smiley

I thought that was great too. Sorry, I had to say it.

Quote:

Uh, no... did anyone read my news update?

Only at the end of segment 2 does he actually sleep at the inn, in 3-7 he just saves. Yet in every load he wanders over to the bed, switches character and leaves. Why not just leave!?!?

I read your updates. Wink

Seriously, I often want to respond to things you say in your updates, so I was going to create a "respond to Radix's news posts" thread. I figured it would be too pedantic and easily get off-topic though.

I think the answer to this is, seiken is under the false impression that he should do this or someone might yell at him for warping. He's thinking, "ok, people have already been on my case for using whatever codec or editing software or whatever. What's a few seconds just to be safe?" I remember he seemed quite worried about his run not being accepted, for reasons I forget. Anyway what he should have done is just ask, and I think anybody would have set him straight.

Last comments: I agree with seiken that 1 player would actually be the fastest, although 3 players could be more interesting. This is because that run and switch technique is really good. And the benefit of 3 players is negligible because spamming magic is so good anyway.

About SoM itself, I like this game well enough, but I always stare at people funny whenever they describe some sort of (Square, SNES, US-released, RPG) holy trinity of CT, FF3, and SoM. This game is broken to all hell, especially the magic system, which has spamming, all these redundant spells, etc. And unlike most games lacking in the gameplay department, I don't know of people who can play the highly subjective "plot is king" Xeno et al card here. I mean, the plot is ridiculously cliched and there is basically no character development or anything.

Saturn would like hearing that I also don't know why Secret of Evermore is so hated, when this game is so loved. I know the story of how SoM was originally supposed to be released for the SNES CD-ROM add-on, and all that. I don't know if this is a valid excuse or not, because that is mostly an amount of content issue, but SD3 was IMHO the best thing to ever come out of Square. I can't imagine people who have played both that prefer this (SD2), but I've heard they exist. I guess in the end, I treat this game like FF Crystal Chronicles: decent fun with all human controlled players (especially if you ban magic), wouldn't really want to play it solo.

I have to admit, when the news page loaded up and I saw Secret of Mana followed by 5:15, I raised an eyebrow and was a bit disappointed. I mean, marsh's Chrono Trigger run might be less than that. Anyway I watched up to Spiky Tiger, seeked around a little on some later segments, and stopped, but I think I can still answer some questions here. If I don't bring something up, it's probably because I agree and have nothing to add.

[quote]- Very nice tiger fight. Do you just have insane reflexes or did you memorize the time he needs to recover from your hit and start his "roll-around-in-frenzy" attack?[/quote]
Reflexes, it's not hard. When he's about to start rolling, that's when you use your item. Although I wondered why you didn't use Medical Herbs instead of the Candies whenever you were at full health.

[quote]- Boss fight before undine shows us again all facettes of the AI </sarcasm>[/quote]
seiken actually takes the time to set all his guys to the bottom right corner for maximum passiveness. I agree with running through dungeons, but in situations like this, it does seem pretty suboptimal.

[quote]- You lucky french people who don't have to stand the german translation...[/quote]
To an English speaker who doesn't know French but knows the game well, it is [i]awesome[/i] seeing it in French. "BRAVO !!" "Obtenu Sphère de l'Epée" and my favorite: "Bonbon / D'accord ? / Merci !" I passed the AP German exam back in high school, so I think in a different way I would enjoy seeing something in German as well.

[quote]- This is getting very interesting. The two hit = death rule seems to be getting standard for your run. Krabbe gets whipped on every enemy ;D. Eager to see the rest.[/quote]
All in all, I was very... uh, impressed... at seiken's cavalier attitude towards dying at every turn. I know I would have used more segments and reloaded instead of taking some of these time and money wasting deaths.

[quote]- What's with that invisible chest in the ruins? Is it always there or only if you missed a sword orb before?[/quote]
In general, this game is pretty glitchy, and especially with orbs. My friend's cart had a glitch where there was this rock or something in front of a stairway somewhere, and he literally could not complete the game. At first I thought he must have missed something, but it really was true.

[quote]- In retrospect, you used the diamond spell so much to get past annoying enemies, you could have omitted most of the leveling at the armor knights.[/quote]
I haven't examined the issue here, but I imagine the main reason why this time could be lower (as in many RPG runs)  is less leveling.

[quote]- Didn't know the easy method for the doppelgänger either. Always learning new stuff...[/quote]
I found this one out by getting people killed in a low level run while normally playing. Here's one that isn't useful but you might not know: people know that Mantis Ant is unloseable, but the same is also true for Santa Claus. Of course, nobody ever actually loses to him.

[quote]2. Why not this ice blade-spell for everyone? Frozen enemies can't move, so you don't have problems with passing them.[/quote]
Due to hit stun, you don't have trouble passing anybody really.

[quote]Watching on so you don't have to...  ::)[/quote]
Thanks! ;)

[quote]- Good to see you get all those AI glitches too. It's really annoying if your heros get stuck in a wall because the AI forgot about it when it moved them there.[/quote]
God, this game is so glitchy. I've had guys stuck in the walls hundreds of times, but luckily there's usually something you can do, either with auto-warping to switches, magic rope, or Flammie. Once though, I got a level 9 weapon orb, got completely stuck, and decided it was time to move on quit cold turkey and move on to another game.

[quote]- don't want to spoil it, but there's a candidate for most daring moments...[/quote]
I tried to find what you're talking about, but I don't think that was really daring. Like most RPGs, poison can only knock you to 1. The only thing dangerous at all was getting past that final regular enemy. The funny part was, not reviving there didn't save any time because he just revived later. I guess taking completely unnecessary risks [i]is[/i] the hallmark of being daring.

[quote]- Hehehe, you don't hesitate to ridicule the game physics in cutscenes. :)[/quote]
I thought that was great too. Sorry, I had to say it.

[quote]Uh, no... did anyone read my news update?

Only at the end of segment 2 does he actually sleep at the inn, in 3-7 he just saves. Yet in every load he wanders over to the bed, switches character and leaves. Why not just leave!?!?[/quote]
I read your updates. ;) Seriously, I often want to respond to things you say in your updates, so I was going to create a "respond to Radix's news posts" thread. I figured it would be too pedantic and easily get off-topic though.

I think the answer to this is, seiken is under the false impression that he should do this or someone might yell at him for warping. He's thinking, "ok, people have already been on my case for using whatever codec or editing software or whatever. What's a few seconds just to be safe?" I remember he seemed quite worried about his run not being accepted, for reasons I forget. Anyway what he [i]should[/i] have done is just ask, and I think [i]anybody[/i] would have set him straight.

[u]Last comments[/u]: I agree with seiken that 1 player would actually be the fastest, although 3 players could be more interesting. This is because that run and switch technique is really good. And the benefit of 3 players is negligible because spamming magic is so good anyway.

About SoM itself, I like this game well enough, but I always stare at people funny whenever they describe some sort of (Square, SNES, US-released, RPG) holy trinity of CT, FF3, and SoM. This game is broken to all hell, especially the magic system, which has spamming, all these redundant spells, etc. And unlike most games lacking in the gameplay department, I don't know of people who can play the highly subjective "plot is king" Xeno et al card here. I mean, the plot is ridiculously cliched and there is basically no character development or anything.

Saturn would like hearing that I also don't know why Secret of Evermore is so hated, when this game is so loved. I know the story of how SoM was originally supposed to be released for the SNES CD-ROM add-on, and all that. I don't know if this is a valid excuse or not, because that is mostly an amount of content issue, but SD3 was IMHO the best thing to ever come out of Square. I can't imagine people who have played both that prefer this (SD2), but I've heard they exist. I guess in the end, I treat this game like FF Crystal Chronicles: decent fun with all human controlled players (especially if you ban magic), wouldn't really want to play it solo.

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-10-23 05:00:22 am

2005-10-23 04:55:04 am

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Quote:

To an English speaker who doesn't know French but knows the game well, it is awesome seeing it in French. "BRAVO !!" "Obtenu Sphère de l'Epée" and my favorite: "Bonbon / D'accord ? / Merci !" I passed the AP German exam back in high school, so I think in a different way I would enjoy seeing something in German as well.

The thing is, Secret of Mana was only the third SNES RPG to find it's way into german and the translation crew was... inexperienced to put it gently. They decided to lighten the game up with some jokes, partly local german stuff.
Some examples, for your high school german:
- "Du gehst? Bis später" - the girl in the basement of the elder in the hero's home village after the hero being cast out
- "Schnell, die Lindenstrasse fängt gleich an" - the goblins(?) that abduct the hero if he doesn't talk to that soldier before entering water palace. Lindenstrasse being a german soap watched mostly by elderly folk.
- "ZERO? Klingt wie eine Krankheit!" - the "ZERO" character after joining your party and getting named.
Luckily SoE was pretty weird to begin with, so they couldn't mess up too much there, apart from renaming the city to Großostheim (where Nintendo of Europe is)

Quote:

All in all, I was very... uh, impressed... at seiken's cavalier attitude towards dying at every turn. I know I would have used more segments and reloaded instead of taking some of these time and money wasting deaths.

It's just that dodging is pure luck in some parts of the game and I counted multiple occasions where a little bad luck would have ended the segment immediately. Seeing the length those it's some feat worth mentioning.

Quote:

I found this one out by getting people killed in a low level run while normally playing. Here's one that isn't useful but you might not know: people know that Mantis Ant is unloseable, but the same is also true for Santa Claus. Of course, nobody ever actually loses to him.

Who revives you then? Rudolph?

Quote:

I can't imagine people who have played both that prefer this (SD2), but I've heard they exist.

Guilty as charged. SD2 is an ideal beginners rpg for kids. It's easy, it has large print, you can learn to abuse the system or not to use magic at all (everyone I know only used magic as a last resort after playthrough one). I've played SD3 not nearly as much as SD2 but the few times I did it seemed to me that SD3 has some serious balancing problems later in the game, depending on what party you chose. Not knowing the characters I chose that mage girl, the cleric short stuff and the thief on my first round and the fight versus that werewolf (kevin?) was really freakin' hard. A different party had not one such problem in the whole game.

[quote]To an English speaker who doesn't know French but knows the game well, it is [i]awesome[/i] seeing it in French. "BRAVO !!" "Obtenu Sphère de l'Epée" and my favorite: "Bonbon / D'accord ? / Merci !" I passed the AP German exam back in high school, so I think in a different way I would enjoy seeing something in German as well.[/quote]
The thing is, Secret of Mana was only the third SNES RPG to find it's way into german and the translation crew was... inexperienced to put it gently. They decided to lighten the game up with some jokes, partly local german stuff.
Some examples, for your high school german:
- "Du gehst? Bis später" - the girl in the basement of the elder in the hero's home village [i]after the hero being cast out[/i]
- "Schnell, die Lindenstrasse fängt gleich an" - the goblins(?) that abduct the hero if he doesn't talk to that soldier before entering water palace. Lindenstrasse being a german soap watched mostly by elderly folk.
- "ZERO? Klingt wie eine Krankheit!" - the "ZERO" character after joining your party and getting named.
Luckily SoE was pretty weird to begin with, so they couldn't mess up too much there, apart from renaming the city to Großostheim (where Nintendo of Europe is)

[quote]All in all, I was very... uh, impressed... at seiken's cavalier attitude towards dying at every turn. I know I would have used more segments and reloaded instead of taking some of these time and money wasting deaths.[/quote]
It's just that dodging is pure luck in some parts of the game and I counted multiple occasions where a little bad luck would have ended the segment immediately. Seeing the length those it's some feat worth mentioning.

[quote]I found this one out by getting people killed in a low level run while normally playing. Here's one that isn't useful but you might not know: people know that Mantis Ant is unloseable, but the same is also true for Santa Claus. Of course, nobody ever actually loses to him.[/quote]
Who revives you then? Rudolph?

[quote]I can't imagine people who have played both that prefer this (SD2), but I've heard they exist.[/quote]
Guilty as charged. SD2 is an ideal beginners rpg for kids. It's easy, it has large print, you can learn to abuse the system or not to use magic at all (everyone I know only used magic as a last resort after playthrough one). I've played SD3 not nearly as much as SD2 but the few times I did it seemed to me that SD3 has some serious balancing problems later in the game, depending on what party you chose. Not knowing the characters I chose that mage girl, the cleric short stuff and the thief on my first round and the fight versus that werewolf (kevin?) was really freakin' hard. A different party had not one such problem in the whole game.

Zen

2005-10-23 10:31:56 pm

Forward standard-by-ten .

Actually, Gorash, that's pretty much the optimal party. You can keep attack magic coming, you have awesome healing, and a good fighter. Only thing to make it better is that Kevin's a better fighter than Hawk, especially with enough dreamvines, but Hawk's still awesome.

Gorash

2005-10-23 10:37:07 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Maybe I had a bad day versus Kevin...

Zen

2005-10-24 10:52:12 am

Forward standard-by-ten .

Or I don't actually know what I'm talking about. Who can say? I just know that not having Carly in the party is agony, since the spreadable healing light is pretty much how you win the game.

Faskalia

2005-10-24 12:55:15 pm

oO Not having charly is agony ?!

Well, not at all.

Try:
Hawk Nightblade
Kevin God Hand
Lise Star Lancer

This is imo the team, that can rip the fastest through any-boss.

Nightblade can lower every single stat.
Star-Lancer can raise every single stat.
God-Hand allows you to heal and spam techs with aura-wave.

And all 3 of them are pretty strong melee characters Wink

Saturn

Edit history:

Saturn: 2005-10-24 04:33:23 pm

2005-10-24 04:29:44 pm

Ah SD3, a game that I studied and played many many times in the past.

I still think Carlie is a must to pick for beginners. The multiple heal-light (which heals all 3 characters at the same time) she has will ease your playthrough incompareable much. Also if you pick Carlie as a "Necromancer" she gets (together with Heal-Light) the most important spell in the game: The Black Course, which will lower ALL stats of your enemies down in one cast so this spell replaces all of the Nightblade-spells!

Kevin is absolutely irreplaceable in fighting skills and is a must in any case if you really want to kick all enemies asses extremely fast and easy. I would recommend the Death Hand because of his stunning high attack-power. Althought Hawk also has a double swing he is no match against Kevin at all.

The last character isn't very important. You can pick Hawk for another double-swinger, however I would prefer either Lise as a Star Lancer to raise the statuses of all 3 characters in one cast, or Duran as Swordmaster to have all the weapon-spells which again you can cast on all 3 characters at the same time (except the Moon and Leaf Saber).

I don't recommend Angela (although she makes a good impression as the "Magician") because her Magic skills take too much time to cast and are pretty weak. You will be much faster by just fighting the enemies with strong characters.

Ah SD3, a game that I studied and played many many times in the past.

I still think Carlie is a must to pick for beginners. The multiple heal-light (which heals all 3 characters at the same time) she has will ease your playthrough incompareable much. Also if you pick Carlie as a "Necromancer" she gets (together with Heal-Light) the most important spell in the game: The Black Course, which will lower ALL stats of your enemies down in one cast so this spell replaces all of the Nightblade-spells!

Kevin is absolutely irreplaceable in fighting skills and is a must in any case if you really want to kick all enemies asses extremely fast and easy. I would recommend the Death Hand because of his stunning high attack-power. Althought Hawk also has a double swing he is no match against Kevin at all.

The last character isn't very important. You can pick Hawk for another double-swinger, however I would prefer either Lise as a Star Lancer to raise the statuses of all 3 characters in one cast, or Duran as Swordmaster to have all the weapon-spells which again you can cast on all 3 characters at the same time (except the Moon and Leaf Saber).

I don't recommend Angela (although she makes a good impression as the "Magician") because her Magic skills take too much time to cast and are pretty weak. You will be much faster by just fighting the enemies with strong characters.

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-10-24 06:24:16 pm

2005-10-24 06:21:33 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Matches most of my impressions.

Angela has pretty awesome spells, but IIRC they got less effective later on, so towards the end you'll be cursing when she gets weaker and weaker.

I'm always glad when I get my first white mage in any RPG so I never enjoyed not having Carlie.

But I totally forgot about the job system. If I count it in, I'm a newbie at that game. But it brings some memories back. Maybe I should play it again...

Zen

2005-10-25 01:25:38 am

Forward standard-by-ten .

I just wish they'd had side quests for the class changes instead of that horrible level gain. Ah, well.

I guess I never really gave Lize much use. I'll throw her into my party next playthrough instead of Angela (whom I never really liked anyway, I just thought the spells were a handy way to do damage without having to control someone directly).

seiken

2005-10-26 07:29:47 pm

Secret of Mana

Hello, obvioulsy i couldn't wait anymore lol.

Well, finally it has been accepted on sda, and forever on archive.org.
Radix, thanks for to your english corrections on my author's comments.
Believed to say you can do what do you want with the 7 VHS.
Frezy_man -) Ask the 20 bucks ( or perharps it was for single segment ? )
Gorash and Enhasa, thanks for your detailled comments, thanks too for the others.

Sorry i can't use balise like quote -) pb with my PC

Asks for Gorash/Helloween

Gorash :

Segment 1

Nice how you gave it the first boss. Didn't know that trick.
-)Yes, i found this nice trick alone, unvolontary.

Tropicallo fight can go much better, but for such a big segment quite ok
-)Yes in my next run it will be the biggest improve of part1.

These werewolf bastards. Nice trick when you park them on that border but the cost to get there... Shocked. I wonder how many times you had to restart because someone died there.
-)I hate these guys. Yes, a ton of restarts with them. You have too the 2 others in the castle which sometimes are responsables of reset.
There was a time when i would to save with the swindler just before the fight when you meet Purim, but just after the two werewolfs i need a new time luck with Spikey Tigger, the begin of the second part would be too hard.

Krabbe? *ROFL*
-)??
ROFL=Grumble ?

Segment 2

Very nice tiger fight. Do you just have insane reflexes or did you memorize the time he needs to recover from your hit and start his "roll-around-in-frenzy" attack?
-) Like Ensaha says, I have reflexes, but you will see after training that's not so hard.
In fact in the next run i will not use Candy, i will skip these rolls just with walking ( don't run ), when i did the run i was able to do it only 50% on these mouvements so i didn't nothing of that, i needed to found other tricks but it will be OK in my next run.

Medical Herb -) Impossible, you need to have a anormal statut for to use it.

Is there any reason why you didn't let Sorcie warp you out?
Because... :X I believe this thing since my chilhood...

Good earth boss fight. Did you try if the ice blade charm of the girl increases dam of the guy ?
-)No... elements of sword will be tested/used in the next run.

The bugs of my run :
Red Dragon : Yes that's a crap thing, i said it in my author's comments.
Chest in the Ruins #2 : very strange thing, it was the first time i had that.

Krabbe gets whipped on every enemy Grin. Eager to see the rest.
-)That's why you said ROFL ? ROFL=?

Segment 3

In retrospect, you used the diamond spell so much to get past annoying enemies, you could have omitted most of the leveling at the armor knights.
-)Armor knights ? To kill them for to have exp ?

The boss fight in the shadow temple is the best scene so far. Pure action.
-)Yes, in fact i had difficulties this time with this boss, fight is fun but must be less fun and faster.

Glitch orb -) Like Enhasa says, lots of glitches in this game, however, i never had something like that O_0.

Segment 4

Didn't know the easy method for the doppelgänger either. Always learning new stuff...
-)doppelgänger=? No results with online translator, sorry.

Segment 5

I think you could have easily made an additional level here and there by finishing off the monsters you used to level undine. But you don't seem to need the exp anyway...
-)Yes, i didn't need.

I wonder why you level the moon spirit (Luna?) so much... I do have a theory and if that proves right I'll be rolling on the floor for half an hour.
-)Because you can't suck MP on certains boss like Hexas, you have a sort of "limit level" and just under this level you suck 1-1-1.... 2 reasons why it's bad :
-More dangerous, if you have a one time bad timing, green number goes on the Sprite, while this time, the boss does what he wants.
-1-1-1.... Total MP of the Boss becomes down then you have nothing to suck when you have a good level with Luna.
It takes the same time to do it before or to do it while the fight, I just do the good combinaison training+boss fight for the "limit level" next boss with max time for training.

Segment 6

Weird thing with the fire dragon. I don't remember that being normal.
-)That's the crappiest bug i had for a speed run.

Segment 7

You forgive me if I speed that segment a bit up, no?
-)Yes, that's a boring part...Zzzzz

A quick summary for everyone: leveling the girls luna to lv4, the shadow element (nocturne?) to lv3 and dryad for both to lv4. Also grades up the sword to lv8.
-)And the 65500 GP armors, but i will skip that in the next run, don't return on the Tree Palace.

Segment 8
I wonder if the nocturne leveling could have been omitted...
-)Mmm don't know really, perharps not entirely...

The main point of improvement from my side would be to cut the luna leveling in segment 5, and them merge that with the luna leveling in segment 7 instead of nocturne, which would be dropped completely and would start with lv1 in the boss fight. Can someone tell me if that would be possible?
-)It has to been calculated...You can't suck this boss so i don't know if you will have enough nuts for the 2 lasts boss.

Helloween :
1. Why not buy full (and cheap) equipment for everyone in the beginning? In the end it doesn't raise defence that much, but it does on evade or so... but I'm not sure if it would be worth to do that, since you manage it more or less.
-)I don't have the time to get GP in the beginning for that. I don't think it will be useful for evade.

2. Why not this ice blade-spell for everyone? Frozen enemies can't move, so you don't have problems with passing them.
-)To do this sort take time each time, then it will start at crap Undine level ( and a few MP with low level ) so it will be too short, and to hit the monster each time take time because after each hit i have the 0%-)100% bar and i use other char to run but all my strats with selects will be modified for a longer time.
That's the first run of Secret of Mana, in the nexts runs you will see we don't need this sort, this run is a start.
But with the boss actually i don't know really.

--) The matter with the Inn
Enhasa is right...

Enhasa for part 2 :
seiken actually takes the time to set all his guys to the bottom right corner for maximum passiveness. I agree with running through dungeons, but in situations like this, it does seem pretty suboptimal.
-)Well in fact not really i move while you have the bar 0-100%, it has to perfected but it can to not take time.

I tried to find what you're talking about, but I don't think that was really daring. Like most RPGs, poison can only knock you to 1. The only thing dangerous at all was getting past that final regular enemy. The funny part was, not reviving there didn't save any time because he just revived later. I guess taking completely unnecessary risks is the hallmark of being daring.
-) Yes i didn't need it but i just had fear...

For Secret of Mana and Secret of Evermore
--) Secret of Mana is the Chrono Triger of the Europe, like FF7/OOT for the next generation : i think in 90% of the cases your fav game is the first RPG of your chilhood. That's my case for Secret of Mana and lots of my friends, that's the case with lots of people US with Crono Trigger, but the worst is really for FF7 where you have a ton of people who say FF7 is the best FF ! The Best RPG ever ! When they just played FF7-FF8-FF10 and sometimes FF9...
FF7 was their first FF so that's the best FF, their first RPG so that's the best RPG, and it was on Playstation so that's the best console ever...They can at least say FF7 is THEIR fav games. I don't mean about the people of this forum but i mean of the 90% noobs who always kill the votes like in GameFaqs.
Secret of Evermore came after Secret of Mana, and i was a little dispapointed the first time i played it, but after you know good this game, that's OK. You have great landscapes with really good atmosphere, some passages are better than Seiken Densetsu 2/3. However i prefer these 2 last games for gameplay, but to hate Secret of Evermore is an error.

And Secret of Mana is my fav games, better for me than Seiken Densetsu 3 :
Quality of song of SD3 is really superior but i prefer music of Secret of Mana, with a sort of quality of music (Mid+MP3)/2, i just love 1/2 music of this game, don't know why, just a good rythm, good symphonic.
Boss ( designs, moves ) are really better in SD3.
Better life, etc... in SD3
But finally, i prefer Secret of Mana because i think that's my first RPG, when i play at this game i have always the felling of a great atmosphere, that's all O_0.
But note i never play at SD3 with 2 other friends.
Me, i think if i was very objective, the best game ever for me would be FF6 and Zelda OOT. But i prefer ALTTP on OOT, note ALTTP was my first Zelda, i played before it on the 2 first on NES, but i was too young for to really appreciate it and Zelda The Adenture of Link was really too hard for me.

I recommand you to create the topic Seiken Densetsu 3 Speed Run.

Hello, obvioulsy i couldn't wait anymore lol.

Well, finally it has been accepted on sda, and forever on archive.org.
Radix, thanks for to your english corrections on my author's comments.
Believed to say you can do what do you want with the 7 VHS.
Frezy_man -) Ask the 20 bucks ( or perharps it was for single segment ? )
Gorash and Enhasa, thanks for your detailled comments, thanks too for the others.

Sorry i can't use balise like quote -) pb with my PC

Asks for Gorash/Helloween

Gorash :

Segment 1

Nice how you gave it the first boss. Didn't know that trick.
-)Yes, i found this nice trick alone, unvolontary.

Tropicallo fight can go much better, but for such a big segment quite ok
-)Yes in my next run it will be the biggest improve of part1.

These werewolf bastards. Nice trick when you park them on that border but the cost to get there...  Shocked. I wonder how many times you had to restart because someone died there. 
-)I hate these guys. Yes, a ton of restarts with them. You have too the 2 others in the castle which sometimes are responsables of reset.
There was a time when i would to save with the swindler just before the fight when you meet Purim, but just after the two werewolfs i need a new time luck with Spikey Tigger, the begin of the second part would be too hard.

Krabbe? *ROFL* 
-)??
ROFL=Grumble ?

Segment 2

Very nice tiger fight. Do you just have insane reflexes or did you memorize the time he needs to recover from your hit and start his "roll-around-in-frenzy" attack? 
-) Like Ensaha says, I have reflexes, but you will see after training that's not so hard.
In fact in the next run i will not use Candy, i will skip these rolls just with walking ( don't run ), when i did the run i was able to do it only 50% on these mouvements so i didn't nothing of that, i needed to found other tricks but it will be OK in my next run.

Medical Herb -) Impossible, you need to have a anormal statut for to use it.

Is there any reason why you didn't let Sorcie warp you out?
Because... :X I believe this thing since my chilhood...

Good earth boss fight. Did you try if the ice blade charm of the girl increases dam of the guy ?
-)No... elements of sword will be tested/used in the next run.

The bugs of my run :
Red Dragon : Yes that's a crap thing, i said it in my author's comments.
Chest in the Ruins #2 : very strange thing, it was the first time i had that.

Krabbe gets whipped on every enemy Grin. Eager to see the rest.
-)That's why you said ROFL ? ROFL=?

Segment 3

In retrospect, you used the diamond spell so much to get past annoying enemies, you could have omitted most of the leveling at the armor knights.
-)Armor knights ? To kill them for to have exp ?

The boss fight in the shadow temple is the best scene so far. Pure action.
-)Yes, in fact i had difficulties this time with this boss, fight is fun but must be less fun and faster.

Glitch orb -) Like Enhasa says, lots of glitches in this game, however, i never had something like that O_0.

Segment  4

Didn't know the easy method for the doppelgänger either. Always learning new stuff...
-)doppelgänger=? No results with online translator, sorry.

Segment  5

I think you could have easily made an additional level here and there by finishing off the monsters you used to level undine. But you don't seem to need the exp anyway... 
-)Yes, i didn't need.

I wonder why you level the moon spirit (Luna?) so much... I do have a theory and if that proves right I'll be rolling on the floor for half an hour. 
-)Because you can't suck MP on certains boss like Hexas, you have a sort of "limit level" and just under this level you suck 1-1-1.... 2 reasons why it's bad :
-More dangerous, if you have a one time bad timing, green number goes on the Sprite, while this time, the boss does what he wants.
-1-1-1.... Total MP of the Boss becomes down then you have nothing to suck when you have a good level with Luna.
It takes the same time to do it before or to do it while the fight, I just do the good combinaison training+boss fight for the "limit level" next boss with max time for training.

Segment 6

Weird thing with the fire dragon. I don't remember that being normal.
-)That's the crappiest bug i had for a speed run.

Segment 7

You forgive me if I speed that segment a bit up, no?
-)Yes, that's a boring part...Zzzzz

A quick summary for everyone: leveling the girls luna to lv4, the shadow element (nocturne?) to lv3 and dryad for both to lv4. Also grades up the sword to lv8.
-)And the 65500 GP armors, but i will skip that in the next run, don't return on the Tree Palace.

Segment 8
I wonder if the nocturne leveling could have been omitted... 
-)Mmm don't know really, perharps not entirely...

The main point of improvement from my side would be to cut the luna leveling in segment 5, and them merge that with the luna leveling in segment 7 instead of nocturne, which would be dropped completely and would start with lv1 in the boss fight. Can someone tell me if that would be possible?
-)It has to been calculated...You can't suck this boss so i don't know if you will have enough nuts for the 2 lasts boss.

Helloween :
 1. Why not buy full (and cheap) equipment for everyone in the beginning? In the end it doesn't raise defence that much, but it does on evade or so... but I'm not sure if it would be worth to do that, since you manage it more or less. 
-)I don't have the time to get GP in the beginning for that. I don't think it will be useful for evade.

2. Why not this ice blade-spell for everyone? Frozen enemies can't move, so you don't have problems with passing them.
-)To do this sort take time each time, then it will start at crap Undine level  ( and a few MP with low level ) so it will be too short, and to hit the monster each time take time because after each hit i have the 0%-)100% bar and i use other char to run but all my strats with selects will be modified for a longer time.
That's the first run of Secret of Mana, in the nexts runs you will see we don't need this sort, this run is a start.
But with the boss actually i don't know really.

--) The matter with the Inn
Enhasa is right...

Enhasa for part 2 : 
seiken actually takes the time to set all his guys to the bottom right corner for maximum passiveness. I agree with running through dungeons, but in situations like this, it does seem pretty suboptimal. 
-)Well in fact not really i move while you have the bar 0-100%, it has to perfected but it can to not take time.

I tried to find what you're talking about, but I don't think that was really daring. Like most RPGs, poison can only knock you to 1. The only thing dangerous at all was getting past that final regular enemy. The funny part was, not reviving there didn't save any time because he just revived later. I guess taking completely unnecessary risks is the hallmark of being daring.
 -) Yes i didn't need it but i just had fear...

For Secret of Mana and Secret of Evermore
--) Secret of Mana is the Chrono Triger of the Europe, like FF7/OOT for the next generation : i think in 90% of the cases your fav game is the first RPG of your chilhood. That's my case for Secret of Mana and lots of my friends, that's the case with lots of people US with Crono Trigger, but the worst is really for FF7 where you have a ton of people who say FF7 is the best FF ! The Best RPG ever ! When they just played FF7-FF8-FF10 and sometimes FF9...
FF7 was their first FF so that's the best FF, their first RPG so that's the best RPG, and it was on Playstation so that's the best console ever...They can at least say FF7 is THEIR fav games. I don't mean about the people of this forum but i mean of the 90% noobs who always kill the votes like in GameFaqs.
Secret of Evermore came after Secret of Mana, and i was a little dispapointed the first time i played it, but after you know good this game, that's OK. You have great landscapes with really good atmosphere, some passages are better than Seiken Densetsu 2/3. However i prefer these 2 last games for gameplay, but to hate Secret of Evermore is an error.

And Secret of Mana is my fav games, better for me than Seiken Densetsu 3 :
Quality of song of SD3 is really superior but i prefer music of Secret of Mana, with a sort of quality of music (Mid+MP3)/2, i just love 1/2 music of this game, don't know why, just a good rythm, good symphonic.
Boss ( designs, moves ) are really better in SD3.
Better life, etc... in SD3
But finally, i prefer Secret of Mana because i think that's my first RPG, when i play at this game i have always the felling of a great atmosphere, that's all O_0.
But note i never play at SD3 with 2 other friends.
Me, i think if i was very objective, the best game ever for me would be FF6 and Zelda OOT. But i prefer ALTTP on OOT, note ALTTP was my first Zelda, i played before it on the 2 first on NES, but i was too young for to really appreciate it and Zelda The Adenture of Link was really too hard for me.

I recommand you to create the topic Seiken Densetsu 3 Speed Run.

Faskalia

2005-10-26 07:43:03 pm

RE: Doppelgänger

It's actually a german word, but is used in english as well. Spelling is the same. Sometimes you even see doubleganger. An acceptable translation for Doppelgänger into french would be "sosie", "double" should also do the trick.

You meet them, after you climb the mountain, and do the test of courage. (Behind the crazy bird-dude, near the Palace of Darkness)

There you fight a double of your party, just that they are grey and have 999 800 800 hp. Its one of those fight, where the melee fighters among the SOM players really shine Grin

Saturn

2005-10-26 08:29:48 pm

Seiken:
I guess "ROFL" means "Rolling On Floor Laughing" and I agree here with Gorash. Why calling a girl "Krabbe"? Its funny and stupid in one :-)

Gorash

2005-10-27 08:32:41 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Quote:

Krabbe? *ROFL*
-)?? ROFL=Grumble ?

Yes, ROFL is short for "Rolling on the floor laughing". Actually it should be ROTFL, but my IRC time made me such a lazy bum that I shorten even that.
I found it hilarious because:
- Krabbe was your competitor for first SoM run.
- The character called Krabbe was a girl, where the forum user Krabbe is marked as male.
- The girl gets most damage in the run, dies most, contributes least, and gets least of all in terms of exp, equipment, and levels. In short, one could think you don't like Krabbe. Smiley

Quote:

Is there any reason why you didn't let Sorcie warp you out?
Because... :X I believe this thing since my chilhood...

Come again?

Quote:

Didn't know the easy method for the doppelgänger either. Always learning new stuff...
-)doppelgänger=? No results with online translator, sorry.

See faskalias explanation.

Quote:

A quick summary for everyone: leveling the girls luna to lv4, the shadow element (nocturne?) to lv3 and dryad for both to lv4. Also grades up the sword to lv8.
-)And the 65500 GP armors, but i will skip that in the next run, don't return on the Tree Palace.

I don't know, you got hit once or twice in the fortress, and all of those would have been one hit kills to your unrpotected party. If you don't travel there, maybe you could buy cheaper equipment in Destinea for everyone earlier...

Quote:

Segment 8
I wonder if the nocturne leveling could have been omitted...
-)Mmm don't know really, perharps not entirely...

As far as I remember that boss has unlimited MP (even if you suck him dry, and then use the ID spell, he'll still have 99 MP). So if you pump every dark spell you used to level shade into that boss you'll save a bit.

[quote] Krabbe? *ROFL*
-)?? ROFL=Grumble ?[/quote]

Yes, ROFL is short for "Rolling on the floor laughing". Actually it should be ROTFL, but my IRC time made me such a lazy bum that I shorten even that.
I found it hilarious because:
- Krabbe was your competitor for first SoM run.
- The character called Krabbe was a girl, where the forum user Krabbe is marked as male.
- The girl gets most damage in the run, dies most, contributes least, and gets least of all in terms of exp, equipment, and levels. In short, one could think you don't like Krabbe. :)

[quote]Is there any reason why you didn't let Sorcie warp you out?
Because... :X I believe this thing since my chilhood...[/quote]

Come again?

[quote]Didn't know the easy method for the doppelgänger either. Always learning new stuff...
-)doppelgänger=? No results with online translator, sorry.[/quote]

See faskalias explanation.

[quote]A quick summary for everyone: leveling the girls luna to lv4, the shadow element (nocturne?) to lv3 and dryad for both to lv4. Also grades up the sword to lv8.
-)And the 65500 GP armors, but i will skip that in the next run, don't return on the Tree Palace.[/quote]

I don't know, you got hit once or twice in the fortress, and all of those would have been one hit kills to your unrpotected party. If you don't travel there, maybe you could buy cheaper equipment in Destinea for everyone earlier...

[quote]Segment 8
I wonder if the nocturne leveling could have been omitted... 
-)Mmm don't know really, perharps not entirely...[/quote]

As far as I remember that boss has unlimited MP (even if you suck him dry, and then use the ID spell, he'll still have 99 MP). So if you pump every dark spell you used to level shade into that boss you'll save a bit.

Enhasa

2005-10-28 09:51:01 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Gorash: I also noticed that with Krabbe and thought it was funny. Oh and about SD3, the job system is very important to evaluating the characters because the spells are completely different based on which paths you take.

Zen: I agree, I hated the level requirements for class change. I like to play RPGs at low levels, so when I beat the game the first time, I didn't even have anyone's second class change. About Carlie, I dunno, healing items are ridiculously good in SD3, and they let you cheat death, so I'm not as big on Carlie as you are.

seiken: I agree completely with what you say about "first RPG" and FF7. I also find the regional differences in opinions very interesting. For example, I know games like Lufia 2 and obviously Terranigma were more well known in Europe than in the US. And of course people here love Square and only know Enix as the word that comes after Square now, due to Enix of America dying before they got to release that ridiculous SNES lineup in the US.

As for me, my first RPG was some computer text adventure game, and my first console RPG was Dragon Warrior, but I don't have any particular attachment to them. About FF, I've noticed it's mostly spot on, and I know people who started on 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 11.

About SD3: I haven't done any research whatsoever, but I agree that the best speedrun party would be Kevin, Hawk, and Lise. Playing not for speed, I like Angela over Lise, but overall the game's balance is quite good. And I'm not really attached to any characters; I've mixed and matched and used them all.

I don't understand the Angela hate though. It's all about context; you can't separate the characters from the game. In a game like Breath of Fire 5 where most bosses don't have elemental weaknesses, Angela would not be a very good character. In a game like Star Ocean 3 where most bosses actually have elemental resistances, Angela would actually be a pretty worthless character. But in SD3, just about every friggin boss you fight for a good portion of the game it seems has an elemental weakness. Especially for beginners, this makes Angela a very useful character.

On another note, is there another game where the stat buffs and items are so numerous and good? I can't think of one. You could be at night on the appropriate day of the week with Kevin getting an elemental buff and using that self-buff spell, getting strength and other stats up and lowering the enemy's defense etc.

[u]Gorash[/u]: I also noticed that with Krabbe and thought it was funny. Oh and about SD3, the job system is very important to evaluating the characters because the spells are completely different based on which paths you take.

[u]Zen[/u]: I agree, I hated the level requirements for class change. I like to play RPGs at low levels, so when I beat the game the first time, I didn't even have anyone's second class change. About Carlie, I dunno, healing items are ridiculously good in SD3, and they let you cheat death, so I'm not as big on Carlie as you are.

[u]seiken[/u]: I agree completely with what you say about "first RPG" and FF7. I also find the regional differences in opinions very interesting. For example, I know games like Lufia 2 and obviously Terranigma were more well known in Europe than in the US. And of course people here love Square and only know Enix as the word that comes after Square now, due to Enix of America dying before they got to release that ridiculous SNES lineup in the US.

As for me, my first RPG was some computer text adventure game, and my first console RPG was Dragon Warrior, but I don't have any particular attachment to them. About FF, I've noticed it's mostly spot on, and I know people who started on 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 11.

[u]About SD3[/u]: I haven't done any research whatsoever, but I agree that the best speedrun party would be Kevin, Hawk, and Lise. Playing not for speed, I like Angela over Lise, but overall the game's balance is quite good. And I'm not really attached to any characters; I've mixed and matched and used them all.

I don't understand the Angela hate though. It's all about context; you can't separate the characters from the game. In a game like Breath of Fire 5 where most bosses don't have elemental weaknesses, Angela would not be a very good character. In a game like Star Ocean 3 where most bosses actually have elemental resistances, Angela would actually be a pretty worthless character. But in SD3, just about every friggin boss you fight for a good portion of the game it seems has an elemental weakness. Especially for beginners, this makes Angela a very useful character.

On another note, is there another game where the stat buffs and items are so numerous and good? I can't think of one. You could be at night on the appropriate day of the week with Kevin getting an elemental buff and using that self-buff spell, getting strength and other stats up and lowering the enemy's defense etc.

Saturn

Edit history:

Saturn: 2005-10-29 01:09:17 pm

2005-10-29 01:00:08 pm

Enhasa:
I don't think you can beat SD3 without changing to at least 2nd class. Your defense strenght and basicly all status would freeze and not grow even if you gain levels until you change to a higher class, that means a unavoidabale Full-screen power-attack like the "Whirlwind Sword" of the Darkshine Knight for example would kill you in one hit instantly no matter what you do. Also with lower classes you can't equip the best Armor/Weapon since each class has his own one.

About Angela: Thats right that most bosses have elemental weaknesses but for this case you can use Durans elemental Saber-spells on your weapon (or the claws buyable in the black market of byzel) which do no less damage than Angelas magic-spells. Only difference is that it takes Angela at least 10-15 sec to cast a spell (together with the animation of the spell) until you damage a enemy/boss with it but a elemental Weapon-attack takes 1-2 sec per swing (double swinger even faster of course). So at least for a speedrun its a clear case here. Angela also sucks in attack-power and don't has a Healing spell (which is much more important to have). The only real advance of her is that she has the best Magic-Defense of all.

Its not a hate (I picked Angela in my first run as I was unexperienced), Angela is a nice character the way she is but if you look on the pure facts depending on the usefulness of the characters, there are much better choices.

Enhasa:
I don't think you can beat SD3 without changing to at least 2nd class. Your defense strenght and basicly all status would freeze and not grow even if you gain levels until you change to a higher class, that means a unavoidabale Full-screen power-attack like the "Whirlwind Sword" of the Darkshine Knight for example would kill you in one hit instantly no matter what you do. Also with lower classes you can't equip the best Armor/Weapon since each class has his own one.

About Angela: Thats right that most bosses have elemental weaknesses but for this case you can use Durans elemental Saber-spells on your weapon (or the claws buyable in the black market of byzel) which do no less damage than Angelas magic-spells. Only difference is that it takes Angela at least 10-15 sec to cast a spell (together with the animation of the spell) until you damage a enemy/boss with it but a elemental Weapon-attack takes 1-2 sec per swing (double swinger even faster of course). So at least for a speedrun its a clear case here. Angela also sucks in attack-power and don't has a Healing spell (which is much more important to have). The only real advance of her is that she has the best Magic-Defense of all.

Its not a hate (I picked Angela in my first run as I was unexperienced), Angela is a nice character the way she is but if you look on the pure facts depending on the usefulness of the characters, there are much better choices.

Faskalia

2005-10-29 01:28:58 pm

You can actually beat the game without the second class-change. The problem is, that you have to level your chars insanly high, in order to stand a chance against the last boss, which is not good for speedrunning Wink

The whole classchange topic will finally result in 6 additional segments, each of them about 1 minute long. In these segments you get your class-breaking item.

Another requirement would be getting lvl 38 the moment you meet the statues in the many holy-land for a second time in roder to class-change properly. Your chars will miss quite a few skills then, but at least they will get the bonus from class-changing.

Saturn

2005-10-29 03:30:08 pm

Right, I forgot that you gain at least some max. HP with each level so in order to survive the Level 3 Fullscreen power attacks you will need at least 600 HP (maybe even more) since your defense will suck badly in first class and this requires a level of about 40 or so. And since the early monsters don't give that much exp. you will need months to get the needed exp. for it!

Its very important to change the class as soon as possible. With each higher level you get in the old class you will lose the status-bonuses which you would normaly get in the new class. Because of that, the class-change thing is really tricky.

Enhasa

2005-11-25 07:32:09 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Just to let you guys know, it is very possible, at least on emulator with reloading, to beat SD3 at very low levels, like 32. You can cheat death like crazy in this game. Anyway, I wasn't even trying for minimal levels until partway through, and I'm not sure I avoded every possible encounter, so it's very likely that the actual minimum is a couple of levels lower.

About Angela: I definitely wasn't trying to argue that she is a really good character or someone you would use in a speedrun (I said Kevin, Hawk, Lise). I said she was a useful character for beginners, who don't know the game very well.

And I mentioned the elemental buffs in the next section. Angela is just nice if you want to play more traditionally with attack magic and all that. The sprite is my favorite character in Secret of Mana, for example. Wink