Secret of Mana

2014-10-04 09:05:43 pm

Master-88

I have to say your sub 2 hour run was absolutely superb. Girl skip is awesome trick, i wonder why its not are founded already? Esepcially i loved your buffy fight, mana fortress last part and superb one round Manabeast. One rounded WTF?.

RNG like this game is hell especially Vampire & Buffy. Probably never see how low this time could be are. Its might be awesome if you going submit your 1:58. This was really damn quick and lucky run.

Its might next target sub 3 hours 1 controll run.

Yagamoth

2014-10-05 04:51:38 am

INTJ

@Stinger: I'll take a look at the tutorial once I find time, I like the idea ^^

Quote from MASTER-88:

I have to say your sub 2 hour run was absolutely superb. Girl skip is awesome trick, i wonder why its not are founded already? Esepcially i loved your buffy fight, mana fortress last part and superb one round Manabeast. One rounded WTF?.

Girl skip was already known long before that - But that was also before we knew about AI target-walking through walls with rope-poles. That's something Crow brought in when he started running 1 controller a fair bit later from what I remember. And since then we have't thought about the Girl skip anymore ^^

(I actually did some initial runs skipping the Girl when I started running this, but it was way slower because I leveled up the Sword with the Sprite to cross the gap)

Musashi

Edit history:

Musashi: 2014-10-05 06:55:06 am

Musashi: 2014-10-05 06:52:49 am

2014-10-05 06:52:27 am

But time flows like a river...

Hey nice run Stinger in 1p2c really amazing, but I guess you still can't submit it to SDA?

I was wondering if a "low%" run is submittable, I know that you can finish the game with the boy lvl 5 (maybe less) and girl/sprite lvl 1, this could be fun. Cheesy

Long time no see btw, that's cool that you all found some new tricks and skips!

Yagamoth

2014-10-05 07:05:41 am

INTJ

I think he technically could submit it to SDA, but it would be considered a coop run

Nice to see back once in a while, Musashi ^^

On another note: For the TAS it wasnt worth to change the character names to nothing, because it doesnt equip armor in Kakkara (changing via trashing). I wonder whether we could find a setup that doesnt cost any time but still changes the name :p

StingerPA

2014-10-05 09:40:29 am

I wouldn't be able to submit my run to SDA anyways because I didn't make a proper local recording with only game audio. Maybe I'll consider doing local records for my next PB, but I'm hoping Yaga and I will be able to get a better time when we meet up at AGDQ again.

I doubt the TAS would save any time from trashing because it already had 1 letter names in the first place. The question I even have is whether changing names is within the range of values we can affect. I don't understand most of the stuff surrounding the equipment trashing, so I'll leave that to you.

Musashi

2014-10-05 01:10:41 pm

But time flows like a river...

Oh ok I see... then you should try to make a perfect 3 co-op run with Crow. Cheesy

There is a new TAS? :O

StingerPA

2014-10-05 03:31:42 pm

Quote from Musashi:

Oh ok I see... then you should try to make a perfect 3 co-op run with Crow. Cheesy

There is a new TAS? :O

It's the one you're (probably) already familiar with, Touch-me's TAS. The only recent ones are my very poor ones meant for RTA purposes.

You should come back and speedrun this again, even if you don't have a console.

Musashi

2014-10-05 06:04:56 pm

But time flows like a river...

Oh ok, I thought someone was working on a new TAS, too bad. ^^

Well for the speedrun, tbh I didn't look at all the new tricks and so on, I am a bit lost I have to admit. Tongue

And for sure, with less training I am surely bad at this game now, haha, but a sub 3 hours would be awesome. :>

StingerPA

2014-10-05 09:07:14 pm

Thanks to Zandergoth, we have another place we can use the "magic rope into cutscene" glitch. Now that we're not sealing the Earth Seed anymore (for 1p2c, anyways), we can use the rope before talking to Gnome. This doesn't push us back behind the stairs. This should save us a few more frames, at least.

Yagamoth

2014-10-05 09:37:10 pm

INTJ

Oh.. clever

Yagamoth

2014-10-05 10:37:47 pm

INTJ

Also, since we are on small timesavers: If we duplicate the barrels (since we buy only 2 anyways), we can use them for itemwalk. No nasty side effect of healing numbers

Crow!

2014-10-05 10:40:59 pm

What's that gemma?

I almost had a way to avoid the annoying turtle blocking the east hallway in the first room of the ice palace, but it doesn't quite work out. I'll post it here anyway in case someone else has an idea to complete it, or to apply the concept elsewhere that it does work.

The button in the center of the first room of the Ice Palace opens a path to proceed northward, but the way shuts upon entering either of the two tiles in front of the wall. Each time you open or close the path, the rest of your party regroups (walking through walls if needed).

The trick is that one of the tiles that closes the wall is adjacent to the button. It is therefore possible to arrange your party in such a way that your allies are standing high up in the square that should close the wall, but they're still considered close enough to you that the game judges you're already grouped together, so that the game doesn't bother to actually gather the party on the button when you press it. You can then swap to one of the AIs that was almost past the "close the wall" tile, and walk up, through the opened wall.

This doesn't work out, though, because the character that had pressed the button cannot rejoin the party. AI characters treat the wall closing event tiles as though they were themselves solid walls, and I can't find a way to get the button presser past those tiles when human controlled, either. So, I can't scroll the camera upward far enough to exit the room.

I almost had a way to avoid the annoying turtle blocking the east hallway in the first room of the ice palace, but it doesn't quite work out.  I'll post it here anyway in case someone else has an idea to complete it, or to apply the concept elsewhere that it does work.

The button in the center of the first room of the Ice Palace opens a path to proceed northward, but the way shuts upon entering either of the two tiles in front of the wall.  Each time you open or close the path, the rest of your party regroups (walking through walls if needed).

The trick is that one of the tiles that closes the wall is adjacent to the button.  It is therefore possible to arrange your party in such a way that your allies are standing high up in the square that should close the wall, but they're still considered close enough to you that the game judges you're already grouped together, so that the game doesn't bother to actually gather the party on the button when you press it.  You can then swap to one of the AIs that was almost past the "close the wall" tile, and walk up, through the opened wall.

This doesn't work out, though, because the character that had pressed the button cannot rejoin the party.  AI characters treat the wall closing event tiles as though they were themselves solid walls, and I can't find a way to get the button presser past those tiles when human controlled, either.  So, I can't scroll the camera upward far enough to exit the room.

StingerPA

2014-10-05 10:46:17 pm

Quote from Yagamoth:

Also, since we are on small timesavers: If we duplicate the barrels (since we buy only 2 anyways), we can use them for itemwalk. No nasty side effect of healing numbers

That's nice, but the only place I can come up with that this would save time is at the Ice Palace rope poles, and it'd only save a second or so from the improved menus. I'm not sure it would outweigh the cost of buying an extra piece of equipment, plus trashing one more thing.

Yagamoth

2014-10-05 10:51:37 pm

INTJ

@Crow: Yup, I tried those things as well, no luck so far o-o

@Stinger: It's also faster for Fire Palace and Climbing the mountains and potentially backwards grand palace. Mostly because you always have the item menu open on the boy ^^... We should also try, whether its also faster than doing the jump via whip instead of simply gathering the party on the other side in various places

StingerPA

2014-10-05 10:58:19 pm

Fire Palace rope poles would be a thing, but I'm extremely skeptical about it being worth it in the grand palace assuming you execute properly. I tested spellwalking on rope poles before to see if it'd be faster last year, and I'm pretty well convinced that it will never be faster, even with the boy already on the item ring and close to the barrels. It's been a while since I checked, though, and we could always just do it again to see.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-10-06 01:05:32 am

2014-10-06 01:04:33 am

What's that gemma?

A the rope pole jump animation takes almost exactly 3 seconds, which unfortunately is about the same amount of time that a menu access + walk through walls takes.

While thinking about whip poles, though, I think I found a way to save around 20 seconds in the first room of the Mana Fortress for 2 controllers, by adapting the TAS's methods a bit. I'll make a recording sometime tomorrow.

Yagamoth

2014-10-06 04:13:11 am

INTJ

Oh... For some reason I didn't think of the menueing. That's right..

On another note: Since registering a hit on something is directed by frame rules -> Starting the swing is not, right? Otherwise we could place the Sprite to hit the rope pole in a spacific -place- to get across the gap in 2 jumps every time oô

Deuceler

2014-10-06 10:09:00 am

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

Congrats on the run Stinger

I'm excited to continue moving forward and gunning for Sub 2 when I start actually doing runs. It looks like there is a lot of stuff to continue testing and moving forward on (as I'm watching Crow's stream on saving time in Mana fortress). Stinger and I raced to fire gigas earlier last week, and I'd like to continue to race quite a bit as I prepare for runs - anyone interested I'll be on IRC at night.

Crow!

2014-10-06 10:42:43 am

What's that gemma?

As promised, here's the boomerang strats for the first room of the Mana Fortress.

http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/c/5246444

Yagamoth

2014-10-06 11:04:20 am

INTJ

Nice thank you, I'll definitely put some work into this ^^

Deuceler

2014-10-06 11:04:42 am

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

Awesome stuff Crow!

StingerPA

2014-10-06 11:23:54 am

Sorry to put a damper on this, but I don't believe this is viable for runs over just doing normal armorless strats. First of all, you have to get the tsunamis to spawn in that rope pole area, otherwise you're almost guaranteed to get the dark stalker and fiend's head. That alone makes it nearly impossible since I have yet to figure out a consistent way to get the tsunamis to spawn instead of the turtlances. Second, it doesn't actually save time unless your execution is extremely good, and even then, it's only about a 5 second time save instead of 20. I haven't actually managed to save time in my practice yet, but I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt for now. So many things can go wrong with it for such a little gain, assuming it really does save time. Not worth it in my book.

Musashi

2014-10-06 02:34:57 pm

But time flows like a river...

The run on SDA is the last known run with all the improvements, or there is a better run?
I'm not seeking at all of a WR, just a run where all the new glitches/techs are used, it can be slower if all the things for getting better time is used, but you know, RNG and so on, that's just for getting in touch. =D

And someone timed how much time the JP version can save over the US, or still not worth it at all, since this version can bug anytime?

StingerPA

2014-10-06 02:38:41 pm

I'm not sure if there's a best place for the most recent 1 controller strats. Crow's twitch page should have his 3:05 PB still, and maybe more recent runs that have new strats. My most recent PB for 1p2c is pretty much up to date, with a couple exceptions.

As far as the JP version is concerned, I actually think it's slower than the US version. Shop menus are slower with buying stuff, and some text cues seemed to be timed differently. And of course, there's the softlocks. In short, never speedrun the JP version seriously.

Musashi

Edit history:

Musashi: 2014-10-06 02:41:57 pm

2014-10-06 02:41:25 pm

But time flows like a river...

Oh ok, I didn't know that Crow managed to beat his SDA run, I'll check his twitch then, thanks!

Yeah Touch-Me told me the same about the JP version when he TAS'd the game about the softlock, just wanted to be sure.

I checked if Hotarubi was trying to improve his old run, but he seems to not play SoM anymore, and no new runs or TAS on nicovideo, cause well, japaneses runners are crazy in discovering glitches, whatever. Tongue