Secret of Mana

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2016-04-09 02:44:39 pm

Crow!: 2016-04-08 08:02:07 pm

Crow!: 2016-04-08 08:01:49 pm

Crow!: 2016-04-08 03:14:06 pm

Crow!: 2016-04-08 02:23:15 pm

Crow!: 2016-04-08 02:22:06 pm

2016-04-08 02:14:51 pm

What's that gemma?

In my WR run, not practicing Undine between Neko's and the Kilroy fight was a mistake. I've made that error before, and from experience, the WR run had some very nice damage rolls. I usually have to fight with the sword for a much longer time. If I were to do things this way intentionally, I would attack with the Sword first, THEN cast spells, so that Kilroy doesn't go into his high-speed mode.

I think the Gnome leveling I did in Northtown should be Sylphid instead, with the remaining Gnome leveling being thrown into the Watermelon fight.

Regarding Mana Magic, I think you should try to get a feel for how short the level 0 "miss" on mana magic is compared to a level 1 "miss". It's a pretty big deal.

Regarding over-leveling weapons, the short answer is no. The longer answer is, if we could obtain the last orb chest of a particular weapon before one of the bosses or story events that awards an orb of that type, then yes, but there are orb chests after the Moogle Village that foil that particular plan.
(Also, I suppose the Spear could also be put into the "early level 4" list by clearing Pandora before defeating Tropicallo. But that would be silly, since the level 3 spear is so much better than level 4.)

[edit] It looks like there are two weapons that should be able to reach level 9 without grinding in the Mana Fortress using this trick... and amusingly, one of them is the Sword, so now we have a way to get the Mana Sword without using a corrupted save file, for whatever that's worth.

For the Sword: Get the chest in the Grand Palace before completing the Tasnica subplot. Then get the Tasnica orb and the Thunder Gigas orb. You then probably need to forge the Mana Sword before talking to the Mana Tree, as she will probably reduce your orb level to 8.
--- Actually, it might be easier to complete the Purelands to get your Sword set to 8 orbs, then go back and complete Tasnica to get that orb.

For the Boomerang: Get the chest in the Sunken Continent entrance before defeating Blue Spike in the Gold Tower, then defeat Blue Spike and the Blue Dragon. [/edit]

In my WR run, not practicing Undine between Neko's and the Kilroy fight was a mistake.  I've made that error before, and from experience, the WR run had some very nice damage rolls.  I usually have to fight with the sword for a much longer time.  If I were to do things this way intentionally, I would attack with the Sword first, THEN cast spells, so that Kilroy doesn't go into his high-speed mode.

I think the Gnome leveling I did in Northtown should be Sylphid instead, with the remaining Gnome leveling being thrown into the Watermelon fight.

Regarding Mana Magic, I think you should try to get a feel for how short the level 0 "miss" on mana magic is compared to a level 1 "miss".  It's a pretty big deal.

Regarding over-leveling weapons, the short answer is no.  The longer answer is, if we could obtain [i]the last orb chest[/i] of a particular weapon before one of the bosses or story events that awards an orb of that type, then yes, but there are orb chests after the Moogle Village that foil that particular plan.
(Also, I suppose the Spear could also be put into the "early level 4" list by clearing Pandora before defeating Tropicallo.  But that would be silly, since the level 3 spear is so much better than level 4.)

[edit] It looks like there are two weapons that should be able to reach level 9 without grinding in the Mana Fortress using this trick... and amusingly, one of them is the Sword, so now we  have a way to get the Mana Sword without using a corrupted save file, for whatever that's worth.

For the Sword: Get the chest in the Grand Palace before completing the Tasnica subplot.  Then get the Tasnica orb and the Thunder Gigas orb.  You then probably need to forge the Mana Sword before talking to the Mana Tree, as she will probably [i]reduce[/i] your orb level to 8.
--- Actually, it might be easier to complete the Purelands to get your Sword set to 8 orbs, then go back and complete Tasnica to get that orb.

For the Boomerang: Get the chest in the Sunken Continent entrance before defeating Blue Spike in the Gold Tower, then defeat Blue Spike and the Blue Dragon.  [/edit]

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2016-04-22 02:01:27 pm

Crow!: 2016-04-22 01:59:45 pm

Crow!: 2016-04-22 01:56:52 pm

2016-04-22 01:56:08 pm

What's that gemma?

I've been thinking about sword orbs and possibilities for improvements there. Here are some results of my thoughts:

Glitchless:
Instead of visiting Watts in the Subway, we could instead open the Sword chest in the Grand Palace and upgrade the sword to level 7 during the pre-Hexas resupply. That's an additional +23 base damage for sword attacks against Mech Rider 3, which gets multiplied to about +100 damage once everything is added together. This might make physical attacks attractive even against Hexas (charge up to level 2 attacks in between sets of Freezes... assuming I can make sure my party doesn't get wrecked by spells).

With glitches: here's how to get the Mana Sword for the Hexas and Mech Rider 3 fights and still be able to clear the Purelands:
- Make a save in Potos before fighting Mantis Ant.
- Go through the Grand Palace as normal up through Snap Dragon, but stop to repetitively open the Sword chest.
- Before fighting Hexas, corrupt another save and fight the Mantis Ant 2 times and visit Watts to get the Mana Sword.
--- Corrupt one last save before continuing with the plot, and make sure this one is different from the 8 Sword Orbs file.
- Upon arriving at the Dragon Worm fight, savewarp back into the 8 Sword Orbs file and complete the Purelands in that file.
- Upon entering the Mana Fortress, savewarp back to the file with the Mana Sword.

This means that you'll complete the Purelands without Neko equipment, and you'll complete the Mana Fortress without 8 Mana Power. This is probably not worth the effort involved in any category.

--------
Single Player Mana Beast thoughts

An outstanding joke about the 1c category is that it's super bad because the final boss fight is much slower than the Glitchless version. This isn't quite a fair complaint - there is a lot of time spent preparing to annihilate the Mana Beast in the way that the Glitchless run does. However, it's still looking into, so here we go.

Existing strategy, as performed in the WR run:
48 - First cinematic attack + ISG
1:38 - First cycle
42 - Second cinematic attack
2:02 - Second cycle
43 - Third cinematic attack
1:37 - Third cycle
(+ a bunch of time waiting for the dead boss to explode)

7:19 - Total fight time

Honestly, I didn't execute this fight very well in the WR run. I'd say the strategy should be more like 6:30 if performed more cleanly.

The Glitchless WR fight:
47 - First cinematic attack
1:06 - First cycle
48 - Second cinematic attack
26 - Second cycle

Total fight time: 3:07

Armed with the ISG, the fight should be a consistent 1-cycle in a 1 controller run, if I set myself up as necessary with Luna and weapon experience. So, that's a 2 minute Mana Beast fight, which is 4:30 faster than the existing strategy.

Strategy differences:
+ 4:30 faster Mana Beast fight
- ~3 minute Moon Palace visit
- 30 seconds leveling up Luna to level 1 (assuming I can find efficient places to do it. Amusingly, the Mana Beast cinematic attack is itself a good place to fit 4 or so casts).
+ 13 bonus damage from Mana Power damage during Watermelon and the Purelands
+ Bounce a Lunar Boost onto bosses that get WCG-ed so they don't dodge (Snow Dragon and Dread Slime seem particularly helpful)
+ Use Moon Energy on Dread Slime for slightly more damage
- Have to get partial weapon experience on ~6 weapons

I unfortunately have no idea how long getting the weapon experience will take, and since it's so spread out across the early game it's hard to estimate. I was already leveling up the Sprite's axe; I can instead level up the Boy's weapons and let the Sprite get the Axe experience via sharing to minimize the cost.

I've been thinking about sword orbs and possibilities for improvements there.  Here are some results of my thoughts:

Glitchless:
Instead of visiting Watts in the Subway, we could instead open the Sword chest in the Grand Palace and upgrade the sword to level 7 during the pre-Hexas resupply.  That's an additional +23 base damage for sword attacks against Mech Rider 3, which gets multiplied to about +100 damage once everything is added together.  This might make physical attacks attractive even against Hexas (charge up to level 2 attacks in between sets of Freezes... assuming I can make sure my party doesn't get wrecked by spells).

With glitches: here's how to get the Mana Sword for the Hexas and Mech Rider 3 fights and still be able to clear the Purelands:
- Make a save in Potos before fighting Mantis Ant.
- Go through the Grand Palace as normal up through Snap Dragon, but stop to repetitively open the Sword chest.
- Before fighting Hexas, corrupt another save and fight the Mantis Ant 2 times and visit Watts to get the Mana Sword.
--- Corrupt one last save before continuing with the plot, and make sure this one is different from the 8 Sword Orbs file.
- Upon arriving at the Dragon Worm fight, savewarp back into the 8 Sword Orbs file and complete the Purelands in that file.
- Upon entering the Mana Fortress, savewarp back to the file with the Mana Sword.

This means that you'll complete the Purelands without Neko equipment, and you'll complete the Mana Fortress without 8 Mana Power.  This is probably not worth the effort involved in any category.

--------
Single Player Mana Beast thoughts

An outstanding joke about the 1c category is that it's super bad because the final boss fight is much slower than the Glitchless version.  This isn't quite a fair complaint - there is a lot of time spent preparing to annihilate the Mana Beast in the way that the Glitchless run does.  However, it's still looking into, so here we go.

Existing strategy, as performed in the WR run:
48 - First cinematic attack + ISG
1:38 - First cycle
42 - Second cinematic attack
2:02 - Second cycle
43 - Third cinematic attack
1:37 - Third cycle
(+ a bunch of time waiting for the dead boss to explode)

7:19 - Total fight time

Honestly, I didn't execute this fight very well in the WR run.  I'd say the strategy should be more like 6:30 if performed more cleanly.

The Glitchless WR fight:
47 - First cinematic attack
1:06 - First cycle
48 - Second cinematic attack
26 - Second cycle

Total fight time: 3:07

Armed with the ISG, the fight should be a consistent 1-cycle in a 1 controller run, if I set myself up as necessary with Luna and weapon experience.  So, that's a 2 minute Mana Beast fight, which is 4:30 faster than the existing strategy.

Strategy differences:
+ 4:30 faster Mana Beast fight
- ~3 minute Moon Palace visit
- 30 seconds leveling up Luna to level 1 (assuming I can find efficient places to do it.  Amusingly, the Mana Beast cinematic attack is itself a good place to fit 4 or so casts).
+ 13 bonus damage from Mana Power damage during Watermelon and the Purelands
+ Bounce a Lunar Boost onto bosses that get WCG-ed so they don't dodge (Snow Dragon and Dread Slime seem particularly helpful)
+ Use Moon Energy on Dread Slime for slightly more damage
- Have to get partial weapon experience on ~6 weapons

I unfortunately have no idea how long getting the weapon experience will take, and since it's so spread out across the early game it's hard to estimate.  I was already leveling up the Sprite's axe; I can instead level up the Boy's weapons and let the Sprite get the Axe experience via sharing to minimize the cost.

Yagamoth

2016-04-22 08:04:40 pm

INTJ

I wonder - do you think levelling Luna is absolutely necessary? In theory you could just have the Girl constantly cast Lunar Energy with good timing in between the attacks - and it would level up in time. For 1p1c you could just level up Luna during Dreadslime.. Or, you could even opt to sequence it differently, and get Luna after doing Gold Tower first. Then use her for Lime Slime as well. The only 'issue' there could be is, that I have no idea whether you can do the barrier skip when Joch actually wants to talk to you, so that might be a minor time loss right there.

Hexas should be relatively easy to take out with charge-attacks in 'glitchless' I think. She is very predictable, and as long as you learn when she is invulnerable to normal hits you should have no trouble hitting (Given your attacks don't miss)... I should experiment with forcing her into a different elemental phases and Wall-repel. In theory you should get good opportunities after each one of her spells to land a good hit.
-> Just keep in mind, that she literally spams spells nonstop in any elemental form. But if you go for water (top left), she would even likely lower her own defense with Acid Rain

For the 1p1c Mana Beast it being worth to use a similar strategy as 'glitchless'... I actually considered that. Not sure if it's worth it - however, what about doing a half-measure? Level up a few weapons along the way, just enough so a level 1/2/3 charge attack would be sufficient with Luna energy + power?

I wonder - do you think levelling Luna is absolutely necessary? In theory you could just have the Girl constantly cast Lunar Energy with good timing in between the attacks - and it would level up in time. For 1p1c you could just level up Luna during Dreadslime.. Or, you could even opt to sequence it differently, and get Luna after doing Gold Tower first. Then use her for Lime Slime as well. The only 'issue' there could be is, that I have no idea whether you can do the barrier skip when Joch actually wants to talk to you, so that might be a minor time loss right there.

Hexas should be relatively easy to take out with charge-attacks in 'glitchless' I think. She is very predictable, and as long as you learn when she is invulnerable to normal hits you should have no trouble hitting (Given your attacks don't miss)... I should experiment with forcing her into a different elemental phases and Wall-repel. In theory you should get good opportunities after each one of her spells to land a good hit.
-> Just keep in mind, that she literally spams spells nonstop in any elemental form. But if you go for water (top left), she would even likely lower her own defense with Acid Rain

For the 1p1c Mana Beast it being worth to use a similar strategy as 'glitchless'... I actually considered that. Not sure if it's worth it - however, what about doing a half-measure? Level up a few weapons along the way, just enough so a level 1/2/3 charge attack would be sufficient with Luna energy + power?

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2016-05-08 08:39:35 pm

Crow!: 2016-05-08 08:00:41 pm

2016-05-08 07:01:56 pm

What's that gemma?

During his new WR "Glitchless" run, Yagamoth discovered a way to temporarily use the stats of one weapon while utilizing the attack animations of a different one. Because "Glitchless." This might have applications in the 1c Spikey Tiger and Blue Spike fights, as well as 2c Spikey Tiger if things go very wrong.

Here's the glitch:
- Equip the weapon whose animations you want. For example, the Bow.
- Cause a character to have numbers appear on top of him. Any color will do; use a Candy, or take damage, or whatever.
- Use X to command the character to equip something that nobody currently has equipped. For example, the level 3 Spear.
--- Note that the character's weapon is greyed out - you're not supposed to be able to alter his weapon at this time. However, the OTHER weapons can still be selected, and that's the glitch.
- Once the numbers fade, you'll apparently still have the original weapon in hand, but its stats are those of the new one. In our example:
--- The Bow will be as strong as the level 3 Spear.
--- You can charge up the Bow to whatever weapon experience level you have for the Spear.
--- Your Arrows will inflict Balloon.
--- As you score kills, you gain experience for the Spear.
- The effects of this glitch will fade when the game does a "weapon update." This can be triggered by status effects such as Pygmy and Barrel, or by going from an area where your weapons are not out to an area where they are, or by equipping a weapon during a more normal time, or explicitly by certain plot events.

Other cases where a character's weapon gets greyed out (say, while a spell animation is playing) do not seem to work for this glitch; only the numbers animation seems to work. (As a side note, changing your weapon as a Saber animation is playing will reliably give you a "fake saber," like what sometimes happens after Frost Gigas.)

Along similar lines, in a previous run Yagamoth discovered that you can have the special effects associated with a previous weapon attached to the stats of a newly forged weapon; for example, until a "weapon update" happens, when the Imp's Fork that is forged into the Elf's Harpoon, it retains the ability to inflict the Balloon status.

-------

An application: 1c Meow-ntain climbing

Getting a setup for the 1c walk-through-walls for the second segment of climbing the Lofty Mountains has proven too difficult to reproduce, so I have been doing the last two Whip pole jumps normally. However, by grafting weapons together, a much easier method is available:

- Do the first walk-through-walls as normal.
- Graft the stats of the Whip onto the weapon animation of the Spear.
--- This could be done before entering the map.
--- I'll have to check whether I can do it during the Lime Slime fight.
- Gather the party at the second Whip pole jump square.
- Face up and stab the Whip pole that's right next to you.
--- You'll jump up.

What's going on here is that the game actually has no idea which Whip pole you've attacked when you attack a Whip pole. What it checks is whether you're currently standing on a Whip pole tile, and whether you have the Whip equipped. The close-range blind spot of the Whip normally prevents you from attacking any whip pole other than the one you're supposed to hit so long as you're standing on the right tile. However, the Spear-Whip is technically the Whip, so you can stand on a Whip tile and attack any Whip pole and you'll jump in the direction you're facing.

[i]During [/i]his new WR "Glitchless" run, Yagamoth discovered a way to temporarily use the stats of one weapon while utilizing the attack animations of a different one.  Because "Glitchless."  This might have applications in the 1c Spikey Tiger and Blue Spike fights, as well as 2c Spikey Tiger if things go very wrong.

Here's the glitch:
- Equip the weapon whose animations you want.  For example, the Bow.
- Cause a character to have numbers appear on top of him.  Any color will do; use a Candy, or take damage, or whatever.
- Use X to command the character to equip something that nobody currently has equipped.  For example, the level 3 Spear.
--- Note that the character's weapon is greyed out - you're not supposed to be able to alter his weapon at this time.  However, the OTHER weapons can still be selected, and that's the glitch.
- Once the numbers fade, you'll apparently still have the original weapon in hand, but its stats are those of the new one.  In our example:
--- The Bow will be as strong as the level 3 Spear.
--- You can charge up the Bow to whatever weapon experience level you have for the Spear.
--- Your Arrows will inflict Balloon.
--- As you score kills, you gain experience for the Spear.
- The effects of this glitch will fade when the game does a "weapon update."  This can be triggered by status effects such as Pygmy and Barrel, or by going from an area where your weapons are not out to an area where they are, or by equipping a weapon during a more normal time, or explicitly by certain plot events.

Other cases where a character's weapon gets greyed out (say, while a spell animation is playing) do not seem to work for this glitch; only the numbers animation seems to work.  (As a side note, changing your weapon as a Saber animation is playing will reliably give you a "fake saber," like what sometimes happens after Frost Gigas.)

Along similar lines, in a previous run Yagamoth discovered that you can have the special effects associated with a previous weapon attached to the stats of a newly forged weapon; for example, until a "weapon update" happens, when the Imp's Fork that is forged into the Elf's Harpoon, it retains the ability to inflict the Balloon status.

-------

An application: 1c Meow-ntain climbing

Getting a setup for the 1c walk-through-walls for the second segment of climbing the Lofty Mountains has proven too difficult to reproduce, so I have been doing the last two Whip pole jumps normally.  However, by grafting weapons together, a much easier method is available:

- Do the first walk-through-walls as normal.
- Graft the stats of the Whip onto the weapon animation of the Spear.
--- This could be done before entering the map.
--- I'll have to check whether I can do it during the Lime Slime fight.
- Gather the party at the second Whip pole jump square.
- Face up and stab the Whip pole that's right next to you.
--- You'll jump up.

What's going on here is that the game actually has no idea which Whip pole you've attacked when you attack a Whip pole.  What it checks is whether you're currently standing on a Whip pole tile, and whether you have the Whip equipped.  The close-range blind spot of the Whip normally prevents you from attacking any whip pole other than the one you're supposed to hit so long as you're standing on the right tile.  However, the Spear-Whip is technically the Whip, so you can stand on a Whip tile and attack any Whip pole and you'll jump in the direction you're facing.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2016-05-08 10:09:17 pm

2016-05-08 09:51:56 pm

INTJ

That's awesome, excellent catch. I didn't think much about the usage of this particular glitch, but this could prove to be really interesting considering it basically transfers the stats on the other weapon.

The Spikey Tiger usage might be a bit optimistic - I don't think you can reach him up there with an overcharged Boomerang/Bow (Which you could've simply traded in the first place anyways). Blue Spike - more likely

I was thinking, that maybe in 1p2c it could be used to use specific weapons for specific encounters - but it wouldn't work with weapon swap I don't think. So it would need to be initiated via AI charge. Just the fact, that it can be used over and over again might make it worthwhile to consider for certain encounters. How's about Boomerang for Dread slime for the double hits? Or Dark Lich? Also, it could make bosses that you didn't previously consider using weapons on before more reasonable, like using a Whip?

It doesn't last through screen transitions unfortunately. So that makes it's use limited

Fun fact, it colors the weapons in the other weapons color after you switch screens, so that's kind of neat.

Another weirdness: You can apparently equip the (Basic) Axe after you reactivate the Mana Sword via spell on a swapped weapon.. After the Mana Sword spell runs out, it returns to being the Sword - while still technically having the Axe equipped according to the inventory. Further, activating the Mana Sword with a different Weapon equipped, will simply give you the Mana Sword instead
Note unless you get the Mana Sword via some early glitch-upgrade, you can't actually select it via inventory, only trade it around. So it's not possible to transfer the stats onto another weapon information I don't think.

After some testing I'll also add: If you use another item- or status-effect on that character it'll correct the weapon as well. So it has limited use on top of the setup. Most definitely not viable for the randomness of the Dread Slime from what I can tell.
Further - even in 1p2c you'd have to initiate the overcharge via weapon AI overcharge + quick takeover without an item. Which is kind of risky in itself, as that's not guaranteed.

Also.. Is it safe to assume, that the reason the Whip has no melee range is, because it would interfere with the Rope-Pole jumps? ^_^;

Ohh... I just remembered something else. You know that you initiate an attack when your character gets barrelled? I managed to rope-pole-jump at some point, but didn't figure out why it sometimes worked and sometimes didn't... Testing that real quick..
-> Report: False alarm, it appears the Barrel just executes a regular attack, not in melee-range by default. Not useful, looks fancy though

EDIT: An actually super great use: You can use that to skip the Luna Orb in the Grand Palace REALLY easily - whether you get Luna or not is a different topic

That's awesome, excellent catch. I didn't think much about the usage of this particular glitch, but this could prove to be really interesting considering it basically transfers the stats on the other weapon.

The Spikey Tiger usage might be a bit optimistic - I don't think you can reach him up there with an overcharged Boomerang/Bow (Which you could've simply traded in the first place anyways). Blue Spike - more likely

I was thinking, that maybe in 1p2c it could be used to use specific weapons for specific encounters - but it wouldn't work with weapon swap I don't think. So it would need to be initiated via AI charge. Just the fact, that it can be used over and over again might make it worthwhile to consider for certain encounters. How's about Boomerang for Dread slime for the double hits? Or Dark Lich? Also, it could make bosses that you didn't previously consider using weapons on before more reasonable, like using a Whip?

It doesn't last through screen transitions unfortunately. So that makes it's use limited

Fun fact, it colors the weapons in the other weapons color after you switch screens, so that's kind of neat.

Another weirdness: You can apparently equip the (Basic) Axe after you reactivate the Mana Sword via spell on a swapped weapon.. After the Mana Sword spell runs out, it returns to being the Sword - while still technically having the Axe equipped according to the inventory. Further, activating the Mana Sword with a different Weapon equipped, will simply give you the Mana Sword instead
Note unless you get the Mana Sword via some early glitch-upgrade, you can't actually select it via inventory, only trade it around. So it's not possible to transfer the stats onto another weapon information I don't think.

After some testing I'll also add: If you use another item- or status-effect on that character it'll correct the weapon as well. So it has limited use on top of the setup. Most definitely not viable for the randomness of the Dread Slime from what I can tell.
Further - even in 1p2c you'd have to initiate the overcharge via weapon AI overcharge + quick takeover without an item. Which is kind of risky in itself, as that's not guaranteed.

Also.. Is it safe to assume, that the reason the Whip has no melee range is, because it would interfere with the Rope-Pole jumps? ^_^;

Ohh... I just remembered something else. You know that you initiate an attack when your character gets barrelled? I managed to rope-pole-jump at some point, but didn't figure out why it sometimes worked and sometimes didn't... Testing that real quick..
-> Report: False alarm, it appears the Barrel just executes a regular attack, not in melee-range by default. Not useful, looks fancy though

EDIT: An actually super great use: You can use that to skip the Luna Orb in the Grand Palace REALLY easily - whether you get Luna or not is a different topic

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2016-05-09 11:57:58 am

Crow!: 2016-05-09 11:57:24 am

Crow!: 2016-05-09 11:57:03 am

Crow!: 2016-05-09 11:56:51 am

Crow!: 2016-05-09 11:55:56 am

Crow!: 2016-05-09 11:53:36 am

Crow!: 2016-05-09 11:52:51 am

Crow!: 2016-05-09 11:44:30 am

Crow!: 2016-05-09 11:44:01 am

2016-05-09 11:18:08 am

What's that gemma?

With Spikey Tiger, what I had in mind was charge retaining for 2 Bow attacks of whatever the highest allowed charge level for actually launching the projectiles is. Normally, this is still not enough damage to kill Spikey, but when it has the attack power of the Broad Sword instead of the Bow, maybe things are different.

I did some math, though, and it's looking like the window is either narrow or nonexistent for that plan to work out. You need a charge level 14 attack to deal 260 damage to Spikey on a normal damage roll with 33 attack power. However, after testing the Bow's overcharges for a bit, I'm not sure whether charge level 14 is before or after the projectiles stop going anywhere.

Regarding the Whip's melee range: it's hard to distinguish cause from effect here; either they eliminated the Whip's melee range to accommodate the Whip pole code's limitations, or they felt free to code the Whip poles so generically because the Whip had no melee range anyway.

Using one curative and 2 weapon menu accesses to complete the Luna Orb skip is definitely better than the current pair of walk-through-walls setups. Good catch.

As for Luna, I pulled out a stopwatch and found that it takes 2:05 to launch from the Gold City, complete the Moon Palace, and get back into the air, which is almost a minute faster than my previous estimate.

------

A minor application of the new glitch is getting the Girl up the ramp at the start of the 1c Fire Palace ramp climb. The Sword-Whip could jump up the ramp directly, rather than needing to rely on AI shenanigans. The plan would be:
- Enter the room with the Sword on the Girl and the Whip on nobody
- Start the Balloon and Freeze casts
- Give the Girl a Walnut
- When the numbers appear, switch to the Whip, and get the Sword back onto the Boy
- Charge the Sword-Whip while finalizing the Robin Foot setup
- Jump partway up the ramp, switch to the Glove, and continue as normal

As a bonus, removing the Sword from the Boy eliminates one trip to the Action Grid. (The Boy and the Sprite need to both start the climb set to charge level 0.)

With Spikey Tiger, what I had in mind was charge retaining for 2 Bow attacks of whatever the highest allowed charge level for actually launching the projectiles is.  Normally, this is still not enough damage to kill Spikey, but when it has the attack power of the Broad Sword instead of the Bow, maybe things are different.

I did some math, though, and it's looking like the window is either narrow or nonexistent for that plan to work out.  You need a charge level 14 attack to deal 260 damage to Spikey on a normal damage roll with 33 attack power.  However, after testing the Bow's overcharges for a bit, I'm not sure whether charge level 14 is before or after the projectiles stop going anywhere.

Regarding the Whip's melee range: it's hard to distinguish cause from effect here; either they eliminated the Whip's melee range to accommodate the Whip pole code's limitations, or they felt free to code the Whip poles so generically because the Whip had no melee range anyway.

Using one curative and 2 weapon menu accesses to complete the Luna Orb skip is definitely better than the current pair of walk-through-walls setups.  Good catch.

As for Luna, I pulled out a stopwatch and found that it takes 2:05 to launch from the Gold City, complete the Moon Palace, and get back into the air, which is almost a minute faster than my previous estimate.

------

A minor application of the new glitch is getting the Girl up the ramp at the start of the 1c Fire Palace ramp climb.  The Sword-Whip could jump up the ramp directly, rather than needing to rely on AI shenanigans.  The plan would be:
- Enter the room with the Sword on the Girl and the Whip on nobody
- Start the Balloon and Freeze casts
- Give the Girl a Walnut
- When the numbers appear, switch to the Whip, and get the Sword back onto the Boy
- Charge the Sword-Whip while finalizing the Robin Foot setup
- Jump partway up the ramp, switch to the Glove, and continue as normal

As a bonus, removing the Sword from the Boy eliminates one trip to the Action Grid.  (The Boy and the Sprite need to both start the climb set to charge level 0.)

Yagamoth

2016-05-09 01:19:00 pm

INTJ

Nice, I like that Fire Palace idea. I was planning on doing some practice for 1p1c during the next week, trying to figure out and route it out for myself like I did with 'glitchless' - so that's something I will try to figure out how efficient it is. I'll also be on the lookout for other possible applications Smiley

Yagamoth

2016-05-10 09:49:46 am

INTJ

Welp, 1p1c now has a Pure Lands skip o.o

https://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/v/65649951

I was messing around with 1p1c stuff, trying to retain charge-attacks after unleashing them and also playing around with Rope Poles, when I got the idea to try this o.o;

Crow!

2016-05-10 11:24:17 am

What's that gemma?

Okay, so skipping Purelands means:

- No need to level up Sylphid
--- This affects the Great Viper, Minotaur, and Gorgon Bull fights
--- Gorgon Bull in particular will require some practice
- Much less time to level up Lumina
--- This problem will be more severe if we also adopt 1-cycle Mana Beast strats
--- Reverting to Level 7 Freeze is an option, but has problems
--- It might be possible to frequently cast Lucid Barrier against Hexas instead of using a Barrel
- No need for Neko armor
--- I'll have to learn armorless fortress, or else just lose 30 seconds or whatever to barreling my way through the last section

Yagamoth

2016-05-10 11:39:27 am

INTJ

According to my list of stuff I wanted to check out, Thunder Gigas was basically the reason why you'd want to level Gnome. Wall Face and Spring Beak are a bit tricky, but should be doable.

Oh yeah, by the way - I figured out that you can stack damage on enemies during the "Slow Down" animation. You don't need to wait until it's complete to swing at the enemy. This would also mean, that as long as you keep the enemies in spell lock animation, you have as much time as you want to set up the attack. Probably also works with Analyzer?..

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2016-05-10 02:12:23 pm

Crow!: 2016-05-10 02:06:59 pm

Crow!: 2016-05-10 02:06:38 pm

Crow!: 2016-05-10 02:06:19 pm

Crow!: 2016-05-10 01:37:49 pm

Crow!: 2016-05-10 01:36:09 pm

Crow!: 2016-05-10 01:13:12 pm

Crow!: 2016-05-10 01:03:58 pm

2016-05-10 12:58:21 pm

What's that gemma?

Some more notes regarding the skip:

I actually had tried hitting the pole with a projectile that was still out. The reason I missed it is because apparently, ONLY level 2 Boomerang attack works. Weaker attacks finish the projectile motion too soon, and other attack animations have more lag (to use a fighting game term) after releasing the projectile so you can't pause in time.

Anyway, with that in mind, using the Boomerang-Sword seems like the easiest way to execute the trick. Other methods require an Action Grid access to charge to level 2, which is pretty slow. You can use the diagonal ledge to your right to line up your vertical position; if you let the game push you up as you tap right, then tap up yourself, that puts you in the right position.

You can stack damage near the end of Slow Down, but only if the enemy is in an animation which allows you to stack damage. I have a theory about this that I've thought for a while but never really tested - as soon as you cross the timing threshold for fast vs slow MP restore of a spell's animation, the target loses its magic animation invulnerability.

Oh - the Midge Mallet pickup is now in question again. The big reasons the Mallet was nearly mandatory were the Dragon Worm and Thunder Gigas fights. With the Purelands out of the picture, it will now only help during Watermelon, Buffy, and Dark Lich. (Watermelon alone may justify it, though - if you get unlucky, an early Wall can really mess things up.)

[EDIT] It looks like my theory regarding spell damage stacking more or less holds up (I'm not convinced it's tied to the same mechanism as the fast vs slow MP restore, but it invulnerability falls off at a predictable time), and furthermore, it looks like there's enough time at the end of each chaincasted spell to get one uncharged physical attack in without losing any time on your spellcasts - even while pygmied. This is going to be a big deal for "Glitchless."

Some more notes regarding the skip:

I actually had tried hitting the pole with a projectile that was still out.  The reason I missed it is because apparently, ONLY level 2 Boomerang attack works.  Weaker attacks finish the projectile motion too soon, and other attack animations have more lag (to use a fighting game term) after releasing the projectile so you can't pause in time.

Anyway, with that in mind, using the Boomerang-Sword seems like the easiest way to execute the trick.  Other methods require an Action Grid access to charge to level 2, which is pretty slow.  You can use the diagonal ledge to your right to line up your vertical position; if you let the game push you up as you tap right, then tap up yourself, that puts you in the right position.

You can stack damage near the end of Slow Down, but only if the enemy is in an animation which allows you to stack damage.  I have a theory about this that I've thought for a while but never really tested - as soon as you cross the timing threshold for fast vs slow MP restore of a spell's animation, the target loses its magic animation invulnerability.

Oh - the Midge Mallet pickup is now in question again.  The big reasons the Mallet was nearly mandatory were the Dragon Worm and Thunder Gigas fights.  With the Purelands out of the picture, it will now only help during Watermelon, Buffy, and Dark Lich.  (Watermelon alone may justify it, though - if you get unlucky, an early Wall can really mess things up.)

[EDIT] It looks like my theory regarding spell damage stacking more or less holds up (I'm not convinced it's tied to the same mechanism as the fast vs slow MP restore, but it invulnerability falls off at a predictable time), and furthermore, it looks like there's enough time at the end of each chaincasted spell to get one uncharged physical attack in without losing any time on your spellcasts - even while pygmied.  This is going to be a big deal for "Glitchless."

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2016-05-10 02:21:57 pm

2016-05-10 02:18:48 pm

INTJ

Oh.. Boomerang-Sword, of course.. Why did I not think of this? o_o

Also, nice research on the attacks after spells. That's definitely something we can incorporate a bit more I feel. For something like Kilroy, this may fit quite well to save a sleep-cycle in 'glitchless'

I was planning on doing overcharge attacks for Watermelon anyways to be honest. You could probably throw a few spells at the beginning until you set up the charge though, which should be enough without the mallet

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2016-05-14 03:00:15 pm

2016-05-14 02:58:05 pm

What's that gemma?

I was annoyed with my general inability to practice glitchless boss fights properly, so I did a run with many save states and a movie recording in Bizhawk. I'm attaching it here in case anyone finds it useful. Some notes:

- The run finishes at around 3:48.
- The "The End" screen has a crescent moon.
- I tried using Dryad level 0, as I've seen Yagamoth do. It took me 8 tries to get Mana Magic RNG good enough to 2-cycle the Mana Beast - all my other attempts ran out of MP. I got 0-4 hits on most of the Sword activations. There is no way I'm putting myself through that nonsense in a real run, and Yaga should know that he's relying on good luck when he neglects the Dryad level.
- I'm especially proud of the Hexas strategy I put together.
- Mech Rider 3's AI treats Lunar Boost as a buff; it will fire its cannon as a counterattack if it is both Walled and Lunar Boosted.

Crow!

2016-05-14 02:59:51 pm

What's that gemma?

Let's try that again, this time actually attaching the movie.

Attachment:

SoM Glitchless.bk2

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2016-06-07 08:05:53 pm

Crow!: 2016-06-07 08:00:07 pm

Crow!: 2016-06-07 07:59:40 pm

2016-06-07 07:54:06 pm

What's that gemma?

Some 1c rerouting thoughts:

- Undine is nice because of its low MP cost, long animation, and Acid Storm against the Mana Beast. After Fire Gigas, I have no further enemies that are actually weak to Undine, however.

- I definitely still want to use magic on Vampire and Watermelon, so I need one element leveled up.
--- The most logical choices are either Lumina (not sure how I get enough practice before the fight to do real damage), Sylphid (useful against Gorgon Bull), and Undine (just generically good).
--- For now, I'm going to try Sylphid.

- Mech Rider: Enter the fight with Axe equipped? Cast Thunderbolt. This will be slower (and more annoying, since Mech Rider will shoot missiles) than Freeze, but it helps focus my magic practice.

- Watermelon: Sprite should be doing 280 damage per level 4 spell, and the Girl 50 damage per Lucent Beam, reduced to 200 damage for a "missed" Sprite spell or 20 damage for a "missed" Girl spell. 3x Thunderbolt casts + 3x Lucent Beam casts should be ~999 damage. So, have the Sprite cast first, then the Girl, for 3 casts each, and use a Faerie Walnut after each set for the Girl, and a walnut for the Sprite after the second set. Do this for 3 sets, then 4th set is just one cast each, followed by a Lucid Barrier cast on the party. This is a total of 11 Lumina casts.
--- Note: casting with the Girl instantly after the Sprite tends to get the Sprite's animation instead of the Girl's; there has to be a short delay or else the short Thunderbolt level 4 animation will be a problem (as it lets Watermelon get some progress toward Wall between casts).

- Grand Palace: 6x Lumina opportunities at crystal orbs.
- Snap Dragon: cast Wall on the Girl, then bounce a Lunar Boost onto Hexas before barreling.
- Mech Rider 3: Gather in bottom center of map. Wall on Boy, Lucid Barrier on party, then when Mech Rider gets in range, Lunar Boost on Boy to get rid of dodges.
--- Lucid Barrier as needed to protect against Disruptor Cannon? Or does that even matter?
--- What about Moon Energy? Without Moon Energy, a single low damage roll means an extra hit is necessary, so it might be worth casting. Plus, I need some casts before Mana Beast anyway.

- Dread Slime: cast Lunar Boost while Wall is up to shut off dodges.

- Mana Beast: Enter with Mana Sword, lock it in with single-targeted Light Saber (the Mana Magic bonus damage will last so long as the Light Saber does, so a level 0/1 Moon Saber is no good here). Cast Lunar Boost 2x before the Mana Beast sets up. Deflect spiral attack with Lucid Barrier (Lunar Boost seems not to prevent damge; not sure why), then cast Lunar Boost until you hit level 1.
--- Then do standard Glitchless stuff - Sprite in the center, Girl on the left facing to the right, Boy in front of the girl. Moon Energy then Lunar Boost and Acid Storm as the Mana Beast approaches. Moon Energy while the Boy is charging up stamina for his second empowered attack.
--- Note: missing 2 weapons (no experience on Axe or Whip) resulted in ~150 damage hits on the Mana Beast with Lunar Boost + Moon Energy + Mana Magic. I probably need to get both those weapons AND some experience toward level 3 Sword (upgrade after Great Viper) to get the damage needed. 2c Acid Storm strats might be necessary if 999 can't be reached.

Some 1c rerouting thoughts:

- Undine is nice because of its low MP cost, long animation, and Acid Storm against the Mana Beast.  After Fire Gigas, I have no further enemies that are actually weak to Undine, however.

- I definitely still want to use magic on Vampire and Watermelon, so I need one element leveled up.
--- The most logical choices are either Lumina (not sure how I get enough practice before the fight to do real damage), Sylphid (useful against Gorgon Bull), and Undine (just generically good).
--- For now, I'm going to try Sylphid.

- Mech Rider: Enter the fight with Axe equipped? Cast Thunderbolt.  This will be slower (and more annoying, since Mech Rider will shoot missiles) than Freeze, but it helps focus my magic practice.

- Watermelon: Sprite should be doing 280 damage per level 4 spell, and the Girl 50 damage per Lucent Beam, reduced to 200 damage for a "missed" Sprite spell or 20 damage for a "missed" Girl spell.  3x Thunderbolt casts + 3x Lucent Beam casts should be ~999 damage.  So, have the Sprite cast first, then the Girl, for 3 casts each, and use a Faerie Walnut after each set for the Girl, and a walnut for the Sprite after the second set.  Do this for 3 sets, then 4th set is just one cast each, followed by a Lucid Barrier cast on the party.  This is a total of 11 Lumina casts.
--- Note: casting with the Girl instantly after the Sprite tends to get the Sprite's animation instead of the Girl's; there has to be a short delay or else the short Thunderbolt level 4 animation will be a problem (as it lets Watermelon get some progress toward Wall between casts).

- Grand Palace: 6x Lumina opportunities at crystal orbs.
- Snap Dragon: cast Wall on the Girl, then bounce a Lunar Boost onto Hexas before barreling.
- Mech Rider 3: Gather in bottom center of map.  Wall on Boy, Lucid Barrier on party, then when Mech Rider gets in range, Lunar Boost on Boy to get rid of dodges.
--- Lucid Barrier as needed to protect against Disruptor Cannon? Or does that even matter?
--- What about Moon Energy?  Without Moon Energy, a single low damage roll means an extra hit is necessary, so it might be worth casting.  Plus, I need some casts before Mana Beast anyway.

- Dread Slime: cast Lunar Boost while Wall is up to shut off dodges.

- Mana Beast: Enter with Mana Sword, lock it in with single-targeted Light Saber (the Mana Magic bonus damage will last so long as the Light Saber does, so a level 0/1 Moon Saber is no good here).  Cast Lunar Boost 2x before the Mana Beast sets up.  Deflect spiral attack with Lucid Barrier (Lunar Boost seems not to prevent damge; not sure why), then cast Lunar Boost until you hit level 1.
--- Then do standard Glitchless stuff - Sprite in the center, Girl on the left facing to the right, Boy in front of the girl.  Moon Energy then Lunar Boost and Acid Storm as the Mana Beast approaches.  Moon Energy while the Boy is charging up stamina for his second empowered attack.
--- Note: missing 2 weapons (no experience on Axe or Whip) resulted in ~150 damage hits on the Mana Beast with Lunar Boost + Moon Energy + Mana Magic.  I probably need to get both those weapons AND some experience toward level 3 Sword (upgrade after Great Viper) to get the damage needed.  2c Acid Storm strats might be necessary if 999 can't be reached.

Yagamoth

2016-06-07 08:10:59 pm

INTJ

Sylphid is an interesting choice to go with. I'm going to try gnome, just because I intend to use a lot of Slow Down strats on bosses that usually give you some trouble trying to hit them. I'm curious to see how your route is going to work out with that

I really like the idea of mixing in Lumina and other spells like that, I haven't thought of that before. I'm not sure about doing this on Watermelon, since he is a fairly easy pray for overcharge attacks, but there is really not any other good place for it, is there?

Casting Lunar Energy on a boss like Mech Rider 3 might make it reasonable to try and have the AI attack via changing their Grid-position? I recall them attacking usually too early, but with the crit buff, this shouldn't be an issue

For the glitchless-mana Beast strategy setup on the weapons, we may want to more clearly route out which enemies to kill along the way. I remember trying some shenanigans when I tried to make the Boomerang work for 1p2c. There are various spots where you could initiate an overcharge with the sword, then switch weapon and gain 3-kill experience relatively quickly.

If I can figure out a good way to do the Fire Palace skip without having the Claw as a selectable weapon, I will try to do the Girl skip in my routing. Further, I'll plan to implement 2x Sword on Sprite and Boy and see where the problems will arise when doing so

Thank you for sharing, looking forward to more runs Cheesy

Sylphid is an interesting choice to go with. I'm going to try gnome, just because I intend to use a lot of Slow Down strats on bosses that usually give you some trouble trying to hit them. I'm curious to see how your route is going to work out with that

I really like the idea of mixing in Lumina and other spells like that, I haven't thought of that before. I'm not sure about doing this on Watermelon, since he is a fairly easy pray for overcharge attacks, but there is really not any other good place for it, is there?

Casting Lunar Energy on a boss like Mech Rider 3 might make it reasonable to try and have the AI attack via changing their Grid-position? I recall them attacking usually too early, but with the crit buff, this shouldn't be an issue

For the glitchless-mana Beast strategy setup on the weapons, we may want to more clearly route out which enemies to kill along the way. I remember trying some shenanigans when I tried to make the Boomerang work for 1p2c. There are various spots where you could initiate an overcharge with the sword, then switch weapon and gain 3-kill experience relatively quickly.

If I can figure out a good way to do the Fire Palace skip without having the Claw as a selectable weapon, I will try to do the Girl skip in my routing. Further, I'll plan to implement 2x Sword on Sprite and Boy and see where the problems will arise when doing so

Thank you for sharing, looking forward to more runs :D

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2016-06-09 12:14:22 pm

2016-06-09 12:09:47 pm

What's that gemma?

Thunderbolt vs Mech Rider was more of a pain than I expected, at least until level 2 hit. If I could get the mallet early via out-of-order nonsense, that would help that fight a lot. Also, the last time I considered out-of-order stuff, I didn't know that the Upper Lands cannon takes you to Gaia's Navel. I wonder if there's an improvement to be had?

- See Jema enter the Water Palace.
- Cannon to Gaia's Navel.
- Recruit the Sprite, get the Axe.
- Rescue the Girl, defeat Spikey.
- Enter Pandora, then complete the Water Palace cutscene.
- Complete Pandora with WCG.
--- This is less of a detriment than it was before, since we only require Gnome vs Springbeak now.
- Defeat Kilroy.
- Defeat Jabberwocky and rescue Undine.
- Defeat the Pebblers, walk the seasons, cannon back to Gaia's Navel.
- Get the Midge Mallet and defeat Fire Gigas.
--- Compared to normal, I'll have to cast 2 more Freezes against the Pebblers, and probably a lot less Freezes against Fire Gigas.
--- I'll also be short some Undine experience, which doesn't matter if I plan to use Sylphid for the long haul.
- Get back to the Upper Lands and defeat Springbeak.
--- This is where most of the time loss is going to be.
--- I doubt there's a safe WCG strat vs Springbeak, but if there is, that would be more beneficial than it was before.
- Complete the rest of the game, except with the Midge Mallet already in hand.

There's also the option to rope out before getting the Sprite, then getting the girl and roping out to complete Spikey from the back door. This would cost some time messing around with the 1c walk through walls, and it would make it harder to get weapon experience onto the Sprite, but it would let me use WCG against Tropicallo.

Thunderbolt vs Mech Rider was more of a pain than I expected, at least until level 2 hit.  If I could get the mallet early via out-of-order nonsense, that would help that fight a lot.  Also, the last time I considered out-of-order stuff, I didn't know that the Upper Lands cannon takes you to Gaia's Navel.  I wonder if there's an improvement to be had?

- See Jema enter the Water Palace.
- Cannon to Gaia's Navel.
- Recruit the Sprite, get the Axe.
- Rescue the Girl, defeat Spikey.
- Enter Pandora, then complete the Water Palace cutscene.
- Complete Pandora with WCG.
--- This is less of a detriment than it was before, since we only require Gnome vs Springbeak now.
- Defeat Kilroy.
- Defeat Jabberwocky and rescue Undine.
- Defeat the Pebblers, walk the seasons, cannon back to Gaia's Navel.
- Get the Midge Mallet and defeat Fire Gigas.
--- Compared to normal, I'll have to cast 2 more Freezes against the Pebblers, and probably a lot less Freezes against Fire Gigas.
--- I'll also be short some Undine experience, which doesn't matter if I plan to use Sylphid for the long haul.
- Get back to the Upper Lands and defeat Springbeak.
--- This is where most of the time loss is going to be.
--- I doubt there's a safe WCG strat vs Springbeak, but if there is, that would be more beneficial than it was before.
- Complete the rest of the game, except with the Midge Mallet already in hand.

There's also the option to rope out before getting the Sprite, then getting the girl and roping out to complete Spikey from the back door.  This would cost some time messing around with the 1c walk through walls, and it would make it harder to get weapon experience onto the Sprite, but it would let me use WCG against Tropicallo.

Crow!

2016-09-19 12:26:20 pm

What's that gemma?

I've been working on some new tech. A lot of it is documented on our discord server, but it's pretty unwieldy to use Discord in that way, so here's the stuff.

------

Easy way to take control of an AI Overcharge:
For clarity, I have attached to this post a video demonstration of this tech.

"Glitchless", the glitch that keeps on glitching. I accidentally found new tech while looking into fighting Tropicallo with 2 characters doing level 1 charge attacks.
It turns out that when the character you're controlling is stunned (damage, a spell, numbers of any color being displayed, whatever), you are allowed to use Select to swap characters even if you are holding B. So, taking control of an overcharge can actually done instantly by stunning not the character you want to control, but instead the character you are controlling.
This is definitely useful to the 1c category.

------

Barrel Launching past Phanna

If you line up a barrel launch (i.e. what we're doing to go up the Fire Palace ramp these days), you can skip past Phanna until after the Northtown Ruins are complete.

As it turns out, this isn't useful because we can't get past Phanna on the way OUT of the ruins, but it made for a funny situation afterward.
https://clips.twitch.tv/iicrowii/HelpfulScorpionBibleThump

------

The Santa Shield, with applications to a Dryad Skip (probably good for 2c) and a Buffy Skip (probably just bad):

One interesting feature of the Ice Palace is that if you die in it, the Boy gets revived, kicked out, and the message "SCRAM!" is displayed. This only activates if you haven't rescued Santa yet.

This is accomplished by setting plot flag 0x0B to 3. Going back out to anywhere that is labeled the "Frosty Forest" will return 0x0B to 2, which allows for normal game overs.

However, if we haven't completed the Ice Palace, and yet have the Flammie Drum in our possession, we can activate this game over shield and leave the Ice Palace via Flammie to retain it. This allows us to initiate a boss fight, then leave it without completing it

Just die during the boss fight, and you'll find yourself back at the Ice Palace. SCRAM! "All I want for Christmas is a second life", apparently.

Anyway, if you do this during the Watermelon fight, then Sheex is left standing around in the Tree Palace room, and you can no longer reach Watermelon.

Talking to Sheex counts as an event. There's no dialogue or anything, but the event system activates. So, get yourself an invisible character, tell controller 2 to walk toward the top part of the incomplete right bridge, and talk to Sheex until you're in the Grand Palace.

Do the usual reverse order Grand Palace, and sink the Grand Palace despite having never raised it in the first place. The one difference is that when you go back to fight the Snap Dragon, the center bridge is still complete (since it was never removed to begin with.)

This same trick also allows for the game to be completed without defeating Buffy, but it requires a bunch of set-up, two trips though the first segment of the Mana Fortress, and two kills on the Dread Slime. So I don't think this will be as useful as the Dryad Skip, but if you REALLY hate Buffy, here you go.

Enter the Buffy fight with a Santa Shield. Die.
Then, make a corrupted save file.
Enter the Dread Slime fight, then save warp back into the Dread Slime fight. Now beat Dread Slime twice (your first kill is musicless).
Event flag 4e should now be in the correct state for Thanatos's cutscene to work properly.

------

Mana Beast 2c 2x WCG

Weapon experience required: the Boy at level 1 Spear, level 2 Sword, and the Sprite at level 2 Sword.
Start with the Boy holding the Mana Sword, while the Sprite has the Spear.
My comments assume that at the start, Player 1 = Boy, Player 2 = Girl.

- The Boy holds B as the fight begins.
- The Girl turns to the right and casts Ice Saber on the Boy's Mana Sword.
- Once the Boy hits charge level 2, the Boy and Sprite swap weapons (the Sprite now has the Mana Sword).
--- The Boy is now overcharging.
- The Sprite's Action Grid is set to charge level 2.
- The Sprite will aggro on the Mana Beast as it flies into the background.
- Retain a good overcharge for the Boy, as normal.
--- The Boy will be attacking with the Spear, so select the attack accordingly.
- Once the Sprite reaches charge level 2, set him to charge level 1.
- Stun the Boy in any way, hold B, and have Player 1 (the Boy) swap to the Sprite to take control of his overcharge.
--- Cheesy

Found a 2c use for this tech already!
- Retain a good overcharge for the Sprite using the usual method.
--- The Sprite will be attacking with the Sword, so select the attack accordingly.
- When the Mana Beast does the Flame Spiral attack, the Girl uses Cure Water to protect the party.
--- I see no reason to pick Remedy instead of Cure Water...
- During the casting animation, Player 2 (the Girl) switches to controlling the Boy.
- Cast Cure Water and Acid Storm to defend against the next Mana Beast flyby, as per Yagamoth's usual strats.

OK, so now we have a charge retained on both the Boy and the Sprite, and the weakened Mana Beast is moving into position. Now to actually attack with both characters efficiently:

- For the first attack, the Mana Beast is not targetable yet, so we do things differently than the usual cycle:
- The Boy pauses and equips the Axe.
--- The Sprite holds B.
- The Boy pauses, equips the Spear.
--- The Boy holds B.
--- The Sprite lets go of B, then holds it as the game is unpausing (i.e. standard charge retention), then lets go again after the charge attack is released.
- Now wait for the Mana Beast to be in range to be targeted.

[A] The Sprite pauses and uses the Targeting command.
--- The Sprite holds B.
--- The Boy does standard charge retention, then lets go of B after the charge attack is released.

[B] The Boy pauses and uses the Targeting command.
--- The Boy holds B.
--- The Sprite does standard charge retention, then lets go of B after the charge attack is released.

- Once the Boy's next overcharge is ready, go back to [A], then [B], until the Mana Beast is dead.

- Keep the Girl in the center! She must be the Lucent Beam target.
--- Use the X menu to cure her as needed.

I've been working on some new tech.  A lot of it is documented on our discord server, but it's pretty unwieldy to use Discord in that way, so here's the stuff.

------

Easy way to take control of an AI Overcharge:
For clarity, I have attached to this post a video demonstration of this tech.
[spoiler]"Glitchless", the glitch that keeps on glitching.  I accidentally found new tech while looking into  fighting Tropicallo with 2 characters doing level 1 charge attacks.
It turns out that when the character you're controlling is stunned (damage, a spell, numbers of any color being displayed, whatever), you are allowed to use Select to swap characters even if you are holding B. So, taking control of an overcharge can actually done instantly by stunning not the character you want to control, but instead the character you are controlling.
This is definitely useful to the 1c category.
[/spoiler]

------

Barrel Launching past Phanna

If you line up a barrel launch (i.e. what we're doing to go up the Fire Palace ramp these days), you can skip past Phanna until after the Northtown Ruins are complete.

As it turns out, this isn't useful because we can't get past Phanna on the way OUT of the ruins, but it made for a funny situation afterward.
https://clips.twitch.tv/iicrowii/HelpfulScorpionBibleThump

------

The Santa Shield, with applications to a Dryad Skip (probably good for 2c) and a Buffy Skip (probably just bad):
[spoiler]One interesting feature of the Ice Palace is that if you die in it, the Boy gets revived, kicked out, and the message "SCRAM!" is displayed.  This only activates if you haven't rescued Santa yet.

This is accomplished by setting plot flag 0x0B to 3.  Going back out to anywhere that is labeled the "Frosty Forest" will return 0x0B to 2, which allows for normal game overs.

However, if we haven't completed the Ice Palace, and yet have the Flammie Drum in our possession, we can activate this game over shield and leave the Ice Palace via Flammie to retain it. This allows us to initiate a boss fight, then leave it without completing it

Just die during the boss fight, and you'll find yourself back at the Ice Palace.  SCRAM!  "All I want for Christmas is a second life", apparently.

Anyway, if you do this during the Watermelon fight, then Sheex is left standing around in the Tree Palace room, and you can no longer reach Watermelon.

Talking to Sheex counts as an event. There's no dialogue or anything, but the event system activates.  So, get yourself an invisible character, tell controller 2 to walk toward the top part of the incomplete right bridge, and talk to Sheex until you're in the Grand Palace.

Do the usual reverse order Grand Palace, and sink the Grand Palace despite having never raised it in the first place.  The one difference is that when you go back to fight the Snap Dragon, the center bridge is still complete (since it was never removed to begin with.)

This same trick also allows for the game to be completed without defeating Buffy, but it requires a bunch of set-up, two trips though the first segment of the Mana Fortress, and two kills on the Dread Slime.  So I don't think this will be as useful as the Dryad Skip, but if you REALLY hate Buffy, here you go.

Enter the Buffy fight with a Santa Shield.  Die.
Then, make a corrupted save file.
Enter the Dread Slime fight, then save warp back into the Dread Slime fight.  Now beat Dread Slime twice (your first kill is musicless).
Event flag 4e should now be in the correct state for Thanatos's cutscene to work properly.[/spoiler]

------

Mana Beast 2c 2x WCG[spoiler]
Weapon experience required: the Boy at level 1 Spear, level 2 Sword, and the Sprite at level 2 Sword.
Start with the Boy holding the Mana Sword, while the Sprite has the Spear.
My comments assume that at the start, Player 1 = Boy, Player 2 = Girl.

- The Boy holds B as the fight begins.
- The Girl turns to the right and casts Ice Saber on the Boy's Mana Sword.
- Once the Boy hits charge level 2, the Boy and Sprite swap weapons (the Sprite now has the Mana Sword).
--- The Boy is now overcharging.
- The Sprite's Action Grid is set to charge level 2.
- The Sprite will aggro on the Mana Beast as it flies into the background.
- Retain a good overcharge for the Boy, as normal.
--- The Boy will be attacking with the Spear, so select the attack accordingly.
- Once the Sprite reaches charge level 2, set him to charge level 1.
- Stun the Boy in any way, hold B, and have Player 1 (the Boy) swap to the Sprite to take control of his overcharge.
--- :D Found a 2c use for this tech already!
- Retain a good overcharge for the Sprite using the usual method.
--- The Sprite will be attacking with the Sword, so select the attack accordingly.
- When the Mana Beast does the Flame Spiral attack, the Girl uses Cure Water to protect the party.
--- I see no reason to pick Remedy instead of Cure Water...
- During the casting animation, Player 2 (the Girl) switches to controlling the Boy.
- Cast Cure Water and Acid Storm to defend against the next Mana Beast flyby, as per Yagamoth's usual strats.

OK, so now we have a charge retained on both the Boy and the Sprite, and the weakened Mana Beast is moving into position.  Now to actually attack with both characters efficiently:

- For the first attack, the Mana Beast is not targetable yet, so we do things differently than the usual cycle:
- The Boy pauses and equips the Axe.
--- The Sprite holds B.
- The Boy pauses, equips the Spear.
--- The Boy holds B.
--- The Sprite lets go of B, then holds it as the game is unpausing (i.e. standard charge retention), then lets go again after the charge attack is released.
- Now wait for the Mana Beast to be in range to be targeted.

[A] The Sprite pauses and uses the Targeting command.
--- The Sprite holds B.
--- The Boy does standard charge retention, then lets go of B after the charge attack is released.

[B] The Boy pauses and uses the Targeting command.
--- The Boy holds B.
--- The Sprite does standard charge retention, then lets go of B after the charge attack is released.

- Once the Boy's next overcharge is ready, go back to [A], then [B], until the Mana Beast is dead.

- Keep the Girl in the center!  She must be the Lucent Beam target.
--- Use the X menu to cure her as needed.[/spoiler]

Attachment:

ChargeSwapDemo.mp4

seiken

Edit history:

seiken: 2017-08-25 03:26:10 am

2017-08-25 03:00:57 am

Secret of Mana

You are doing so great stuff since years about secret of mana speedrunning, collecting infos&works.
There were years i feel offended by feeling banned by community after doing a controversial speedrun where i got less help than the one there is available today, that's why i left the community.
Today, i'm going to put some effort trying to integrate it again.
Yagamoth, i really enjoyed to watch your single-segment glitchless speedrun and see how you escape the repetitives death from bosses who killed my attempts of single-segment speedrun.

I tried to speed run again Secret of Mana, but my SNES PAL&US died, i'm very unlucky...
The category that is interresting me will be always glitchless/no major glitchs, even if i know you put some efforts on glichted runs.
And maybe later if i get again SNES US, i'll try to record a speed run. At last my SNES SoM US cartdrige isn't dead Wink

Anyway, even if i know it's SNES topic, i just can't prevent myself to warn you that a 3D remake is coming on Steam/PS4/Vita... for the 15 february 2018 !

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/08/25/gamescom-2017-secret-of-mana-remake-announced-for-pc-ps4-vita-coming-in-2018

I'll try to speed run the Steam version.

Till this time i'll try speedrunning SNES SoM on emulator, reading your nice topic Wink

You are doing so great stuff since years about secret of mana speedrunning, collecting infos&works.
There were years i feel offended by feeling banned by community after doing a controversial speedrun where i got less help than the one there is available today, that's why i left the community.
Today, i'm going to put some effort trying to integrate it again.
Yagamoth, i really enjoyed to watch your single-segment glitchless speedrun and see how you escape the repetitives death from bosses who killed my attempts of single-segment speedrun.

I tried to speed run again Secret of Mana, but my SNES PAL&US died, i'm very unlucky...
The category that is interresting me will be always glitchless/no major glitchs, even if i know you put some efforts on glichted runs.
And maybe later if i get again SNES US, i'll try to record a speed run. At last my SNES SoM US cartdrige isn't dead ;)

Anyway, even if i know it's SNES topic, i just can't prevent myself to warn you that a 3D remake is coming on Steam/PS4/Vita... for the 15 february 2018 !

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/08/25/gamescom-2017-secret-of-mana-remake-announced-for-pc-ps4-vita-coming-in-2018

I'll try to speed run the Steam version.

Till this time i'll try speedrunning SNES SoM on emulator, reading your nice topic ;)