Secret of Mana

2015-09-12 01:50:02 am

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

Dang, nice stuff crow. That wouldn't affect charge attacks at all would it? Like getting a low roll on a boss etc. I'm not sure how that would add up for the overcharge or if it would at all

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2015-09-19 05:33:50 pm

Crow!: 2015-09-19 05:31:33 pm

2015-09-17 08:54:55 pm

What's that gemma?

Well, the 1c WR is now sort of 2:59:29. I say "sort of" because Twitch for whatever reason neither streamed nor recorded my run... so, there is no "record" for that world record. I guess my next task is to get a locally-recorded run for SDA.

[Edit] Now I have a local recording of a 3:01:45. I lost about 2 minutes on the Lofty Mountain climb (apparently, Bomb Bees run away if their health drops too low?), and another 1.5 minutes at Snow Dragon. I'm not sold that it's up to SDA standards, and I'm not sure such a slight PB improvement warrants a pre-recorded stream.

Crow!

2015-09-24 12:05:38 pm

What's that gemma?

I was watching a casual stream of Secret of Mana today, when one of the Meow-ntain climbing Neko glitches triggered. I don't think we really had a proper video of it before, so here's a highlight of it:
http://www.twitch.tv/ayu/v/17548584

Deuceler

2015-09-26 03:12:17 pm

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

Damn, nice! I'm hooked on watching casual SoM streams now, hoping to see something new

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2015-10-01 05:06:05 pm

2015-10-01 05:03:41 pm

What's that gemma?

More glitchless theorycrafting:

Against Mech Rider 3, doing the same set of buffs as the new strategy against the Dread Slime should deal like 500-700 damage for level 2 charge attacks, if my math is correct. The Sword should be at level 4 (upgraded at the Watts in the Subway system, if not earlier). This might save a resupply trip at the end of the Grand Palace, and it may just be outright faster regardless.

Yagamoth

2015-10-14 04:59:39 pm

INTJ

Why do you need to make 2 trips anyways? o.o

Crow!

2015-10-14 05:10:24 pm

What's that gemma?

Hydra, Hexas, and Mech Rider 3 all cost a lot of MP to defeat; 4 Walnuts is not generally enough to clear all of them.

While we're on the subject, Watermelon should probably be MP absorbed instead of using a walnut, but this would require precise timing and a guess regarding your MP damage rolls; messing up at all will result in needing to undo a wall.

Crow!

2015-11-15 07:21:31 pm

What's that gemma?

I have retaken the glitchless category WR with a 4:35:51.
http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/v/26032723

I tried to do the Gold Tower in one trip but couldn't. I might be able to do it if I level up Undine or Sylphid a bit more before entering, but I'm not sure if that's faster than just taking the second trip.

I ran out of things for the Sprite to practice before I did with the Girl, since I now don't need to level up Shade. Practicing Luna for the Girl during some boss fights might help with that.

Yagamoth

2015-11-15 09:13:15 pm

INTJ

I'd like to come back to something I've mentioned before - Why does the 1 controller category not simply get Luna and do the Mana Sword powering through leveling other weapons as well? (That's assuming the infinite Mana Sword glitch does not get rid of the bonus)

- Time spent levelling other weapons (????min)
- Time spent getting Luna (<2.5min)

+ Time gained in Grand Palace (Probably) (??min)
+ Time gained on Mana Beast fight (6min)

~Potential time gain on other bosses?

I just checked your current 1c record, Crow. It takes you around 8 minutes to defeat the Mana Beast in your 1c run
-> With a 1-cycle this would be cut down to around 2 minutes

I kind of have the feeling that I'm forgetting something though.. Was there another reason why you didn't get Luna after all?

Either way, with a proper kill route for the weapons I don't think there would be an issue levelling them up mostly along the way ^^

StingerPA

2015-11-15 09:52:02 pm

For the Mana Beast fight alone, it'd be closer to 4 minutes over the current record, but I will say that the current record does not have a good Mana Beast fight. Ideally, it'd probably end up as a 3 minute time save in the Mana Beast over current 1c strats. I'd also disagree with the idea that it would save time in the Grand Palace. The Luna Skip when properly done, would still be faster than going to the Luna orb room to raise the rope pole to Snapdragon. Considering it takes ~2 minutes already to get Luna, I don't think there's any way to reasonably get Luna and level weapons up, AND level Luna up a bit so you're not casting moon energy every slash.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2015-11-15 11:09:57 pm

Crow!: 2015-11-15 11:05:04 pm

Crow!: 2015-11-15 11:02:12 pm

2015-11-15 11:01:41 pm

What's that gemma?

Something we haven't actually tested yet is how the Infinite Mana Sword glitch interacts with Mana Sword Power. We know that outright forging the Mana Sword does not apply that bonus, but I don't know if the bonus applies for a Light Saber-ed Mana Sword. If not, 1c would need to add time for grinding 1-2 levels in Dryad, too, to make use of the mana sword power bonus.

Even if I had Luna, I wouldn't use the Luna Orb in the Grand Palace. Visiting that room is so slow that even the awkward setup for the two walk through walls is faster... as long as I don't mess it up, of course.

There are fewer opportunities to get weapon experience on the Boy in 1c than in glitchless, since all the "easy" kills are already being taken by the Sprite and the Girl. I suspect the time investment would be rather high.

Another crazy option available to the 1c route is to forge the Mana Sword outright, rather than dealing with Mana Magic. I'm pretty sure you're allowed to save in Potos before the Mantis Ant fight, so save warping to Mantis Ant after getting level 8 orbs via the Mana Tree, then forging the sword would cost... 2 minutes, maybe? That's probably not good enough to be worth it either, since the only real benefit is at the Dread Slime fight.

Even crazier would be to farm up the Mana Sword as soon as Flammie is ready - there's a chest in the Northtown Ruins that would get the sword up to level 5, then 4 Mantis Ant trips would finish it off. The Thunder Gigas would require extra consideration (I'd have to savewarp into the Purelands with a file that didn't yet have the Mana Sword, beat Gigas, then savewarp the primary file back in.) That's also probably a bad idea.

Something we haven't actually tested yet is how the Infinite Mana Sword glitch interacts with Mana Sword Power.  We know that outright forging the Mana Sword does not apply that bonus, but I don't know if the bonus applies for a Light Saber-ed Mana Sword.  If not, 1c would need to add time for grinding 1-2 levels in Dryad, too, to make use of the mana sword power bonus.

Even if I had Luna, I wouldn't use the Luna Orb in the Grand Palace.  Visiting that room is so slow that even the awkward setup for the two walk through walls is faster... as long as I don't mess it up, of course.

There are fewer opportunities to get weapon experience on the Boy in 1c than in glitchless, since all the "easy" kills are already being taken by the Sprite and the Girl.  I suspect the time investment would be rather high.

Another crazy option available to the 1c route is to forge the Mana Sword outright, rather than dealing with Mana Magic.  I'm pretty sure you're allowed to save in Potos before the Mantis Ant fight, so save warping to Mantis Ant after getting level 8 orbs via the Mana Tree, then forging the sword would cost... 2 minutes, maybe?  That's probably not good enough to be worth it either, since the only real benefit is at the Dread Slime fight.

Even crazier would be to farm up the Mana Sword as soon as Flammie is ready - there's a chest in the Northtown Ruins that would get the sword up to level 5, then 4 Mantis Ant trips would finish it off.  The Thunder Gigas would require extra consideration (I'd have to savewarp into the Purelands with a file that didn't yet have the Mana Sword, beat Gigas, then savewarp the primary file back in.)  That's also probably a bad idea.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2015-11-16 10:01:49 am

2015-11-16 09:56:35 am

What's that gemma?

I did some investigation on the interaction between Mana Sword Power and the Infinite Sword Glitch.

Here are some cheat codes:
7ee3cd38 - the Girl has all 3 Dryad spells
7ee5cd07 - the Sprite has all 3 Dryad spells
7ee3c488 - the Girl has level 8 for Gnome and Undine magic

Here are my methods and notes:

I took a 1c file that just got Flammie and cast Mana Magic. This file has 2 levels on the Sword and nothing else (for a total of 0.25 Mana Sword Power). The Mana Sword dealt 180-190 damage both normally and after invoking the Infinite Sword Glitch via level 0 Ice Saber. After letting the level 0 Ice Saber run out, I cheated my way to level 8 (read: 7) Ice Saber, which should deal 1/3 more damage. It was dealing 230-240 damage, so the base damage it was boosting was about 150, which is a bit less than I expect for having the Mana Sword equipped (if should have been 165).

Then I grinded some weapon experience onto the Boy, bringing him to 2.85 Mana Sword Power. I was then dealing 460-470 damage with Mana Magic alone, and also when I initiated the infinite Sword Glitch with level 8 Ice Saber on top of Mana Magic.

This struck me as odd, so I re-made the Mana Sword, and tried level 0 Thunder Saber, which I then allowed to run out. The sword dealt the same 460-470 damage initially, then once Thunder Saber ran out, was dealing only 170-180 damage per hit - as though I had no Mana Sword Power. I then re-cast level 8 (read: 7) Ice Saber, and was back to dealing 230-240 damage per hit.

One more test: I cast Mana Magic, then I ISG-ed with level Thunder Saber, then I put level 8 Undine on top of that, before the Thunder Saber ran out. I dealt 230-240 damage, as though I had no Mana Sword Power.

Conclusion:
When you initiate the Infinite Sword Glitch, the particular instance of the elemental Saber enchantment that you cast now has Mana Sword Power bonus damage instead of the usual elemental saber bonus damage. Once the Saber runs out, the Mana Sword Power bonus is gone. Refreshing the elemental saber replaces the Mana Sword Power damage bonus with the Elemental Saber damage bonus instead.

I did some investigation on the interaction between Mana Sword Power and the Infinite Sword Glitch.

Here are some cheat codes:
7ee3cd38 - the Girl has all 3 Dryad spells
7ee5cd07 - the Sprite has all 3 Dryad spells
7ee3c488 - the Girl has level 8 for Gnome and Undine magic

Here are my methods and notes:
[spoiler]I took a 1c file that just got Flammie and cast Mana Magic.  This file has 2 levels on the Sword and nothing else (for a total of 0.25 Mana Sword Power).  The Mana Sword dealt 180-190 damage both normally and after invoking the Infinite Sword Glitch via level 0 Ice Saber.  After letting the level 0 Ice Saber run out, I cheated my way to level 8 (read: 7) Ice Saber, which should deal 1/3 more damage.  It was dealing 230-240 damage, so the base damage it was boosting was about 150, which is a bit less than I expect for having the Mana Sword equipped (if should have been 165).

Then I grinded some weapon experience onto the Boy, bringing him to 2.85 Mana Sword Power.  I was then dealing 460-470 damage with Mana Magic alone, and also when I initiated the infinite Sword Glitch with level 8 Ice Saber on top of Mana Magic.

This struck me as odd, so I re-made the Mana Sword, and tried level 0 Thunder Saber, which I then allowed to run out.  The sword dealt the same 460-470 damage initially, then once Thunder Saber ran out, was dealing only 170-180 damage per hit - as though I had no Mana Sword Power.  I then re-cast level 8 (read: 7) Ice Saber, and was back to dealing 230-240 damage per hit.

One more test: I cast Mana Magic, then I ISG-ed with level Thunder Saber, then I put level 8 Undine on top of that, before the Thunder Saber ran out.  I dealt 230-240 damage, as though I had no Mana Sword Power.[/spoiler]

Conclusion:
When you initiate the Infinite Sword Glitch, the particular instance of the elemental Saber enchantment that you cast now has Mana Sword Power bonus damage instead of the usual elemental saber bonus damage.  Once the Saber runs out, the Mana Sword Power bonus is gone.  Refreshing the elemental saber [i]replaces [/i]the Mana Sword Power damage bonus with the Elemental Saber damage bonus instead.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2015-11-18 04:43:12 pm

Crow!: 2015-11-18 04:42:53 pm

Crow!: 2015-11-18 04:39:31 pm

Crow!: 2015-11-18 04:38:59 pm

Crow!: 2015-11-18 04:26:56 pm

2015-11-18 04:24:54 pm

What's that gemma?

Today, Yagamoth got the Chakram (level 2 Boomerang) without having upgraded it. With some effort, this led to transforming the Boomerang into a Pole Dart. Incidentally, if this glitch could be duplicated intentionally, the Javelin line would transform into hats which, based on some brief emulator testing, would behave VERY strangely.

Here's a link, but it's to a past broadcast, which will be deleted in a couple weeks. http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/v/26419624?t=52m50s

Yagamoth at this point had a boomerang, but by the time he reached the Matango cave, he inexplicably had the Chakram. The game still thought that he had not upgraded the boomerang yet, so he was able to upgrade it 8 times to a level 10 weapon.

BTW, the Elfin Bow gives +5 Wisdom and +5 Intelligence, which might be nice for 1c and for glitchless. I could get it first after Gorgon Bull, otherwise it has to wait for Kettle Kin or the Snow Dragon. It's probably too much effort for 1c, but it might be worth the effort for Glitchless, where Walnut conservation is the name of the game.

Today, Yagamoth got the Chakram (level 2 Boomerang) without having upgraded it.  With some effort, this led to transforming the Boomerang into a Pole Dart.  Incidentally, if this glitch could be duplicated intentionally, the Javelin line would transform into hats which, based on some brief emulator testing, would behave VERY strangely.

Here's a link, but it's to a past broadcast, which will be deleted in a couple weeks.  http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/v/26419624?t=52m50s

Yagamoth at this point had a boomerang, but by the time he reached the Matango cave, he inexplicably had the Chakram.  The game still thought that he had not upgraded the boomerang yet, so he was able to upgrade it 8 times to a level 10 weapon.

BTW, the Elfin Bow gives +5 Wisdom and +5 Intelligence, which might be nice for 1c and for glitchless.  I could get it first after Gorgon Bull, otherwise it has to wait for Kettle Kin or the Snow Dragon.  It's probably too much effort for 1c, but it might be worth the effort for Glitchless, where Walnut conservation is the name of the game.

Yagamoth

2015-11-19 07:01:08 am

INTJ

Thank you for posting that Crow

I am kind of stumped on how that happened. The only link we really have is that Spring Beak gives you the Boomerang Orb after he is defeated. I usually unselect the 2nd character and switch to the Sprite after defeating Spring Beak in order to prepare for the next segment, so that's nothing really unusual.

The only things that were kind of unusual is that I didn't get the overcharge attack I wanted and I casted Slow Down to prevent the Sprite from dying

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2015-11-19 01:49:18 pm

2015-11-19 11:34:29 am

What's that gemma?

I did some more testing on hat weapons via cheat codes. If we could intentionally reproduce the spontaneous weapon upgrading glitch for Javelin orbs, we would be able to forge these by over-forging the Javelin line of weapons. I have attached to this post a SNES9x save state which can be used to play with this stuff. Just upgrade the Javelin to the desired "weapon", then update the Boy's weapon via barrel or something.

The hat weapons are actually enemy weapons, but they use the icons and the item names of pieces of head equipment. (If we could keep upgrading weapons indefinitely, we would eventually get body armor names, then arm equipment names). In this game, your characters are told how to animate in part via their weapons, and equipping these non-weapons makes them look... strange. Unless otherwise noted, assume that trying to attack with any of these weapons will make you lose control of the character until you interrupt that animation somehow.

Many animations (walking, dashing, pushing...) have weapon hitboxes of random shapes and sizes. As a general rule, when you have a hat weapon, you damage enemies by pushing them. Some weapons are best if you push continuously, while others prefer that you mash the control pad to alternate between pushing and not pushing. Enemies that can have damage stacked on them will get wrecked, while enemies that have post-hit invincibility will be fine.

The first one, Bare Head, is by far the glitchiest. Your characters don't want to equip it directly, and if you try to equip it by moving your currently equipped weapon onto it, weird things happen to your weapon inventory. I think the game is treating this item in some ways as though it were the weapon menu's trashcan. Attacking with this weapon gives the most spectacular animation results, but having it equipped at all requires some trickery. You have to have the level 9 Javelin equipped when you forge it into the Bare Head, then do something to make the game refresh your weapon (getting Barreled or Pygmied works).

The Bandana and Hair Ribbon are probably the tamest. They're the only ones I've found that don't lock up the character indefinitely after an attack - the attacker just hops and is done. These weapons also inflict poison - they're the Buzz Bee's attacks, technically.

The Rabite Cap and Head Gear look totally awesome.

The Quill Cap and Steel Cap have... weird hitboxes. I suggest using Lua to identify where they are, but suffice it to say that it's very far from your body.

Some weapons make weird stuff happen. One of them (I forget which) will teleport the girl to the left side of the map (possibly to a negative camera position) after the Boy scores a kill. I assume this is from the game messing up while trying to award weapon experience.

The game has some lookup table where each weapon knows "I'm weapon type 0, a glove" or "I'm weapon type 1, a sword", etc, and the game uses these offsets for determining where to look up your weapon level and your weapon experience. The Boy's current weapon type is stored in 7EE068. Here are a few weapon type values, listed in Hexadecimal:

Code:

Barreled: C
Bare Head: 38
Bandana / Hair Ribbon: 1D
Rabite Cap / Head Gear: 32
Quill Cap / Steel Cap: 19
Golden Tiara: 28

Some more notes:

The Bare Head's 38:
- Stores the current weapon experience level in an otherwise unused spot in memory.
- Places weapon experience into the NEXT character's Z speed (i.e. how fast it's jumping or falling). I.E. you can make NPCs fly into the sky if you have the Sprite kill an enemy. Also, you'd need an entity that never updates its Z speed in the next character's slot in order to level up the Bare Head - and unfortunately, there seems to be a maximum height beyond which the game always sets Z speed to 0, so no dice here.

The Bandana / Hair Ribbon's 1D:
- Stores the current weapon level in an otherwise unused place in memory.
- Stores weapon experience in your "recovery counter", i.e. how many more frames until you've hit 100% stamina. This means that killing enemies will make you go on a brief (4-9 frames) stamina cooldown, and that if you killed enough enemies at the same time that you set yourself to 0% stamina, you could level up the Bandana / Hair Ribbon.

The Rabite Cap / Head Gear's 32:
- Stores your current weapon experience level in an otherwise unused place in memory.
- Uses the the NEXT entity's X position as its weapon experience. This moves the object to the right if its X position is less than 0x64 (read: 100), or to the left by 100 pixels each for each weapon level you gain. This probably has interesting applications, as you can move either your own characters or NPCs in any place where you can gain weapon experience.
- My test file was able to gain 8 weapon levels with this weapon. I'm not sure where it is reading this maximum from.

The Quill Cap / Steel Cap's 19:
- Stores your weapon experience in a spot that, for enemies, stores their secondary weapon's ID number, but I think is unused for players - in other words, you can level them up like normal weapons.
- Uses your Luna Spells Learned table as though it were your weapon experience level. This has interesting possible applications, as you could alter what spells you know - or maybe even cast nonexsitent ones.
--- Success! Leveling up the Sprite's Quill Cap experience level teaches him Change Form. Unfortunately, the game thinks that the Quill Cap is not allowed to level up beyond level 1, and I'm not sure what data it's reading to set that maximum.
--- Not exactly success! Leveing up the Girl's Quill Cap teaches her the Luna spells "Shade" and "Dryad", which each cost more than 99 MP.

The Gold Tiara's 28:
- Uses a portion of the whip's weapon experience as though it were the tiara's weapon experience level.
- Uses something HHS hasn't documented as its weapon experience. Whenever this number is nonzero, it ticks down quickly. It seems to be related to casting magic.

While I was looking this stuff up, I found out why the Wall Glitch doesn't give me money for killing the Boy like it did when I killed the Girl. Enemy characters store their gold in the same place characters store the list of which spells they have learned. Since the boy doesn't know spells, he isn't worth gold.

I did some more testing on hat weapons via cheat codes.  If we could intentionally reproduce the spontaneous weapon upgrading glitch for Javelin orbs, we would be able to forge these by over-forging the Javelin line of weapons.[b] I have attached to this post a SNES9x save state which can be used to play with this stuff.[/b] Just upgrade the Javelin to the desired "weapon", then update the Boy's weapon via barrel or something.

The hat weapons are actually enemy weapons, but they use the icons and the item names of pieces of head equipment.  (If we could keep upgrading weapons indefinitely, we would eventually get body armor names, then arm equipment names).  In this game, your characters are told how to animate in part via their weapons, and equipping these non-weapons makes them look... strange.  Unless otherwise noted, assume that trying to attack with any of these weapons will make you lose control of the character until you interrupt that animation somehow.

Many animations (walking, dashing, pushing...) have weapon hitboxes of random shapes and sizes.  As a general rule, when you have a hat weapon, you damage enemies by pushing them.  Some weapons are best if you push continuously, while others prefer that you mash the control pad to alternate between pushing and not pushing.  Enemies that can have damage stacked on them will get wrecked, while enemies that have post-hit invincibility will be fine.

The first one, Bare Head, is by far the glitchiest.  Your characters don't want to equip it directly, and if you try to equip it by moving your currently equipped weapon onto it, weird things happen to your weapon inventory.  I think the game is treating this item in some ways as though it were the weapon menu's trashcan.  Attacking with this weapon gives the most spectacular animation results, but having it equipped at all requires some trickery.  You have to have the level 9 Javelin equipped when you forge it into the Bare Head, then do something to make the game refresh your weapon (getting Barreled or Pygmied works).

The Bandana and Hair Ribbon are probably the tamest.  They're the only ones I've found that don't lock up the character indefinitely after an attack - the attacker just hops and is done.  These weapons also inflict poison - they're the Buzz Bee's attacks, technically.

The Rabite Cap and Head Gear look totally awesome.

The Quill Cap and Steel Cap have... weird hitboxes.  I suggest using Lua to identify where they are, but suffice it to say that it's very far from your body.

Some weapons make weird stuff happen.  One of them (I forget which) will teleport the girl to the left side of the map (possibly to a negative camera position) after the Boy scores a kill.  I assume this is from the game messing up while trying to award weapon experience.

The game has some lookup table where each weapon knows "I'm weapon type 0, a glove" or "I'm weapon type 1, a sword", etc, and the game uses these offsets for determining where to look up your weapon level and your weapon experience.  The Boy's current weapon type is stored in 7EE068. Here are a few weapon type values, listed in Hexadecimal:
[code]Barreled: C
Bare Head: 38
Bandana / Hair Ribbon: 1D
Rabite Cap / Head Gear: 32
Quill Cap / Steel Cap: 19
Golden Tiara: 28[/code]

Some more notes:
[spoiler]The Bare Head's 38:
- Stores the current weapon experience level in an otherwise unused spot in memory.
- Places weapon experience into the NEXT character's Z speed (i.e. how fast it's jumping or falling).  I.E. you can make NPCs fly into the sky if you have the Sprite kill an enemy.  Also, you'd need an entity that never updates its Z speed in the next character's slot in order to level up the Bare Head - and unfortunately, there seems to be a maximum height beyond which the game always sets Z speed to 0, so no dice here.

The Bandana / Hair Ribbon's 1D:
- Stores the current weapon level in an otherwise unused place in memory.
- Stores weapon experience in your "recovery counter", i.e. how many more frames until you've hit 100% stamina.  This means that killing enemies will make you go on a brief (4-9 frames) stamina cooldown, and that if you killed enough enemies at the same time that you set yourself to 0% stamina, you could level up the Bandana / Hair Ribbon.

The Rabite Cap / Head Gear's 32:
- Stores your current weapon experience level in an otherwise unused place in memory.
- Uses the the NEXT entity's X position as its weapon experience.  This moves the object to the right if its X position is less than 0x64 (read: 100), or to the left by 100 pixels each for each weapon level you gain.  This probably has interesting applications, as you can move either your own characters or NPCs in any place where you can gain weapon experience.
- My test file was able to gain 8 weapon levels with this weapon.  I'm not sure where it is reading this maximum from.

The Quill Cap / Steel Cap's 19:
- Stores your weapon experience in a spot that, for enemies, stores their secondary weapon's ID number, but I think is unused for players - in other words, you can level them up like normal weapons.
- Uses your Luna Spells Learned table as though it were your weapon experience level.  This has interesting possible applications, as you could alter what spells you know - or maybe even cast nonexsitent ones.
--- Success!  Leveling up the Sprite's Quill Cap experience level teaches him Change Form.  Unfortunately, the game thinks that the Quill Cap is not allowed to level up beyond level 1, and I'm not sure what data it's reading to set that maximum.
--- Not exactly success!  Leveing up the Girl's Quill Cap teaches her the Luna spells "Shade" and "Dryad", which each cost more than 99 MP.

The Gold Tiara's 28:
- Uses a portion of the whip's weapon [u]experience [/u]as though it were the tiara's weapon experience [u]level[/u].
- Uses something HHS hasn't documented as its weapon experience.  Whenever this number is nonzero, it ticks down quickly.  It seems to be related to casting magic.
[/spoiler]

While I was looking this stuff up, I found out why the Wall Glitch doesn't give me money for killing the Boy like it did when I killed the Girl.  Enemy characters store their gold in the same place characters store the list of which spells they have learned.  Since the boy doesn't know spells, he isn't worth gold.

Attachment:

Secret of Mana (U).000

Yagamoth

2015-11-19 06:35:40 pm

INTJ

Wooow, I really like your notes here. We can potentially do crazy stuff with this *_*

Yagamoth

2015-11-20 06:15:27 pm

INTJ

I just had a thought - Maybe the Boomerang leveling up wrongly is related to me trashing the Sprites equipment? That's the only other odd instance which I can remember that could possible have some weird effects oô

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2015-11-21 10:55:05 pm

2015-11-21 10:53:57 pm

INTJ

Apologies for the triple post, but I think this idea is worth sharing:

In 1p2c, the reason why we use the Neko in the cave is because it allows us to put the BLAT item into the last item slot -> This way we only have to sell it once and it will not corrupt our inventory. We can't do that any later, as the Magic Rope would prevent us from accessing later item slots. This however comes at the price of two additional screen transitions with music changes.

I just randomly thought, that we could actually use the Sprites equipment trashing to our advantage here instead. Sprite reduces the amount of items by 6 when equipment trashing.

+ Save 2 screen & music transitions
- Lose a few frames through worse path in the Dwarven village (going to the shop first in order to have enough money)
- Can't use items before Prisoner Neko
- Boy needs to go into the equipment menu a 2nd time
- Move the Sprite into position for Equipment trashing (shouldn't be an issue - also we can just trash the starting armor)
- Sell 2 BLATs instead of only 1 (= 6 BLATs, which the Sprite equipment trashing reduces to 0)

... Now that I list this, this seems questionable whether it saves time.. Still posting this for information

Apologies for the triple post, but I think this idea is worth sharing:

In 1p2c, the reason why we use the Neko in the cave is because it allows us to put the BLAT item into the last item slot -> This way we only have to sell it once and it will not corrupt our inventory. We can't do that any later, as the Magic Rope would prevent us from accessing later item slots. This however comes at the price of two additional screen transitions with music changes.

I just randomly thought, that we could actually use the Sprites equipment trashing to our advantage here instead. Sprite reduces the amount of items by 6 when equipment trashing.

+ Save 2 screen & music transitions
- Lose a few frames through worse path in the Dwarven village (going to the shop first in order to have enough money)
- Can't use items before Prisoner Neko
- Boy needs to go into the equipment menu a 2nd time
- Move the Sprite into position for Equipment trashing (shouldn't be an issue - also we can just trash the starting armor)
- Sell 2 BLATs instead of only 1 (= 6 BLATs, which the Sprite equipment trashing reduces to 0)

... Now that I list this, this seems questionable whether it saves time.. Still posting this for information

Crow!

2015-11-22 10:34:28 am

What's that gemma?

Another "+" there is the rope method lets you skip one bounce between the buying and selling menu compared to the empty inventory method. I do think that doing an extra trash with the Sprite after 2 Blat sales is probably slower than just selling 8 Blats, though.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2015-11-22 01:08:51 pm

2015-11-22 12:24:54 pm

INTJ

Hm... If you need to equip the Sprite anyways it might be worth it

My idea was mostly related to 1p2c, where we sell only 1 BLAT in the first place (We don't need more money)

Edit: Also, I found this in an older post from HHS

Quote:

Critical rate = Weapon skill*3 + weapon's crit rate, halved for fist, sword, axe and spear

Crow!

2015-11-24 08:34:17 pm

What's that gemma?

Yagamoth's Sprite equipment trash from in the spontaneous chakram run altered byte 7ECCBE to be 0x22 instead of 0xE2. That byte is used in both the title screen and the The End screen, but is apparently unused anywhere else. So, that's not what we're looking for.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2015-11-24 09:09:11 pm

Yagamoth: 2015-11-24 08:44:45 pm

2015-11-24 08:38:29 pm

INTJ

Wait.. That wasn't my first run of the day... This could've actually been something that has to do with the end screen

gyre

2015-11-24 09:04:54 pm

It wouldn't be surprising to have the ending sequence change memory that does not get reinitialized. Nasir has done that a few times.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2016-04-08 01:06:25 pm

Crow!: 2016-04-08 01:05:49 pm

Crow!: 2016-04-08 10:53:51 am

2016-04-08 10:50:10 am

What's that gemma?

There's been some activity in the Glitchless category recently. The WR is down to 4:07:35, and the long-standing goal of making the major game categories be "slightly under 2, slightly under 3, and slightly under 4" hours is looking closer to a reality all the time.

Here are some notes on recent routing changes / options:

- Yagamoth has managed to beat Spikey without the werewolves-first gambit in a way that finishes in about the same time.
--- His PB is currently ahead at that point compared to the WR run, though the WR had slow werewolf and Spikey fights.
--- Nether route is likely to keep the Sprite alive during the Spikey fight.
--- The werewolves-first route gets more equipment but less weapon experience than the Tropicallo-first method.

- In the 4 Seasons puzzle, the southeast corner of the Summer map has a Cannon Travel that will take you to Gaia's Navel. We now do this after completing the puzzle but before defeating Springbeak so that we can sleep at the inn and get the Midge Mallet early. This does cost like 1.5-2 minutes of extra travel compared to going there later via Flammie, but the early Mallet and the 500G savings are probably worth it.

- Some notes on weaker versions of spells:
--- Most weaker spells deal 18 less base damage than the strongest spell.
----- This gets increased by another 9 for every level of experience in the spell, then the whole thing gets doubled if you're targeting the foe's weakness.
----- For example, using Gem Missile level 2 against Wall Face deals 72 less damage than Earth Slide.
----- Fireball is weaker than Exploder by only half as much as the normal weak spells.
--- The projectile spells are sometimes more cost efficient than the 4 mana alternatives, but they allow the enemy to act in between casts.
----- In particular, Fireball may save a walnut vs Snow Dragon and vs Hydra.

- In the Ice Palace, each of the 3 Tonpoles require 3 spells each to defeat when Salamando is at level 1, and the second spell cannot be Fireball or else it will transform into a full health Biting Lizard. The second spell can be any of Lava Wave, Exploder, or even a level 0 Fire Bouquet from the Girl.
--- I'm a fan of Lava Wave, as the Sprite probably has 14 MP at this point (2+3+2 = 7 MP per Tonpole kill).

- Mech Rider 3 can be prevented from casting Wall by convincing him to charge across the screen. This carries obvious dangers of its own, however, and we haven't worked out all the details yet.

- The Elven Bow, Elf's Harpoon, and Chakra Hand give +1 Intelligence/Wisdom.
--- For example, level 7 Freeze will deal 4.5 more damage per cast vs Buffy with the weapon upgrade, while a level 4 spell that hits an enemy weakness will deal 6 more damage.
--- The Bow and the Glove are both available at the time we're forging the Sword to level 8 anyway.
--- If you want them earlier than that...
----- The Glove is available after 3 Orbs, which can be done either via a chest in the Ice Palace, or by opening the Moogle Village chest ~~twice~~ and then defeating the Metal Mantis. It costs 1400GP to forge.
----- The Bow is available after 5 Orbs, which is done after defeating Kettle Kin, or after Gorgon Bull if you open the correct chest in the Northtown Ruins. It costs 6000GP to forge.
----- The Javelin seems to be a worse choice than the Bow in every way.
--- The Glove seems interesting, as forging it after the Moogle Village chest would give you a Sleep-inflicting weapon that is slightly stronger than the Broad Sword for 600GP. That attack range is uninspiring, though.

[edit] I'm not sure why I thought the glove orb got opened twice in the Moogle village; it doesn't. Though actually, if you do the out-of-order early game plot nonsense to complete the Moogle Village before defeating the Biting Lizard, then you could get the Chakra Hand before defeating Springbeak (open the glove chest twice, then defeat Biting Lizard). The Glove (and the Axe, which also has a chest in the Moogle village) can be brought to level 4 earlier than any other weapon can this way. [/edit]

There's been some activity in the Glitchless category recently.  The WR is down to 4:07:35, and the long-standing goal of making the major game categories be "slightly under 2, slightly under 3, and slightly under 4" hours is looking closer to a reality all the time.

Here are some notes on recent routing changes / options:

- Yagamoth has managed to beat Spikey without the werewolves-first gambit in a way that finishes in about the same time.
--- His PB is currently ahead at that point compared to the WR run, though the WR had slow werewolf and Spikey fights.
--- Nether route is likely to keep the Sprite alive during the Spikey fight.
--- The werewolves-first route gets more equipment but less weapon experience than the Tropicallo-first method.

- In the 4 Seasons puzzle, the southeast corner of the Summer map has a Cannon Travel that will take you to Gaia's Navel.  We now do this after completing the puzzle but before defeating Springbeak so that we can sleep at the inn and get the Midge Mallet early.  This does cost like 1.5-2 minutes of extra travel compared to going there later via Flammie, but the early Mallet and the 500G savings are probably worth it.

- Some notes on weaker versions of spells:
--- Most weaker spells deal 18 less base damage than the strongest spell.
----- This gets increased by another 9 for every level of experience in the spell, then the whole thing gets doubled if you're targeting the foe's weakness.
----- For example, using Gem Missile level 2 against Wall Face deals 72 less damage than Earth Slide.
----- Fireball is weaker than Exploder by only half as much as the normal weak spells.
--- The projectile spells are sometimes more cost efficient than the 4 mana alternatives, but they allow the enemy to act in between casts.
----- In particular, Fireball may save a walnut vs Snow Dragon and vs Hydra.

- In the Ice Palace, each of the 3 Tonpoles require 3 spells each to defeat when Salamando is at level 1, and the second spell cannot be Fireball or else it will transform into a full health Biting Lizard.  The second spell can be any of Lava Wave, Exploder, or even a level 0 Fire Bouquet from the Girl.
--- I'm a fan of Lava Wave, as the Sprite probably has 14 MP at this point (2+3+2 = 7 MP per Tonpole kill).

- Mech Rider 3 can be prevented from casting Wall by convincing him to charge across the screen.  This carries obvious dangers of its own, however, and we haven't worked out all the details yet.

- The Elven Bow, Elf's Harpoon, and Chakra Hand give +1 Intelligence/Wisdom.
--- For example, level 7 Freeze will deal 4.5 more damage per cast vs Buffy with the weapon upgrade, while a level 4 spell that hits an enemy weakness will deal 6 more damage.
--- The Bow and the Glove are both available at the time we're forging the Sword to level 8 anyway.
--- If you want them earlier than that...
----- The Glove is available after 3 Orbs, which can be done either via a chest in the Ice Palace, or by opening the Moogle Village chest [s]twice[/s] and then defeating the Metal Mantis.  It costs 1400GP to forge.
----- The Bow is available after 5 Orbs, which is done after defeating Kettle Kin, or after Gorgon Bull if you open the correct chest in the Northtown Ruins.  It costs 6000GP to forge.
----- The Javelin seems to be a worse choice than the Bow in every way.
--- The Glove seems interesting, as forging it after the Moogle Village chest would give you a Sleep-inflicting weapon that is slightly stronger than the Broad Sword for 600GP.  That attack range is uninspiring, though.

[edit] I'm not sure why I thought the glove orb got opened twice in the Moogle village; it doesn't.  Though actually, if you do the out-of-order early game plot nonsense to complete the Moogle Village before defeating the Biting Lizard, then you could get the Chakra Hand before defeating Springbeak (open the glove chest twice, then defeat Biting Lizard).  The Glove (and the Axe, which also has a chest in the Moogle village) can be brought to level 4 earlier than any other weapon can this way. [/edit]

Yagamoth

2016-04-08 01:14:21 pm

INTJ

Very nice writeup, thank you Smiley

A few notes to your notes:
- I will most likely opt to buy more equipment after Spiky Tiger for my other characters in my next run - it is just too useful to not get for the entire early game
- I was thinking of the Moogle Claw myself. It might work better against some enemies I had trouble with so far - most notably flying enemies that can not be ballooned
- I completely overlooked, that there are other weapons outside of the bow that give +int o__o.. Thank you
- I will probably go for the Javelin - I disagree on it being the weakest choice, because the Balloon-effect is extremely useful in many areas before that. Most notably, you could get that effect before the Ice Country if you open the chest in the King Mushrooms room (Although that cuts into the budget for the Walnuts). So it would just be upgraded slightly further after that + you could have it already before the Pure Lands

[to the edit]Wait.. Does that mean we could naturally over-upgrade the glove-weapon by doing this stuff out of order?[/to the edit]

I have watched your new best time and made a few notes for myself. Those were not initially meant to be public, so the wording and formatting might be weird. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Code:

Notable differences between Crows and my run + some new ideas:
- A lot more stone saber along the way
- Canon after Fire Gigas instead of walking + levelling gnome
- Kilroy without additional levelling session of Undine...
-> Try to have 10 MP on the Sprite after getting Undine for earlier levels
- First Sylph levelling, use Silence instead.. No reason to kill outside of Stone weapons
- 2nd Sylph... Killing stuff here is not necessarily worthwhile outside of gaining weapon levels
- Thunderbolt + 2 Faerie walnuts for Great Viper
- MP GETS RESTORED AFTER SANDSHIP STUFF

- I don't bother levelling Undine all the way up -> He has 7 MP left over after the fight
- If I have 4 Faerie Walnuts at Frost Forest Neko.. I can just go. No need to restock anymore
- Lava Wave instead of Fire Bouquet... Gives 3 more Salamando spellcasts for the Sprite
- Ice Gigas: 3 Exploder + Fireball, 2 Exploder + Fireballs
- Minorous: No Sylph levelling before, just Thunderbolt
- Lava Wave the Blue slimes.. We have easily enough MP left over
- Vampire: Exploder instead o.o.. I mean.. We do have sufficient Faerie Walnuts in there..
- Metal Mantis: Various stuff, Gem Missile spam in the end o.0
- Mech Rider II: More Gnome levelling.. And Salamando Exploder
- Do some more spell levelling before the Circlet thingy village (I Definitely want to get rid of that)
- More Freeze casts inside the Shadow temple -> Way more efficient
- Key right after acquiring Flammie still, but no need for the Lazuri Ring yet (Don't farm the gold on Embermen)
- Has to level Sylphid before Gorgon Bull -> level 3 beforehand is fine
- He starts levelling the girls Luna magic. Level 1 is probably worthwhile to achieve early
- No need to Absorb MP from the poor Karon guy, gets restored anyways on the way to the mountain
-> Maybe level some magic on the way up, since it's such a pain to climb anyways?
- Gnome via Gem Missile (?) to level 4 on Watermelon [Don't forget Lady luna magic]
-- I don't need to restock here though.
- Figure out despawns for the Tree Palace areas
-- I gain time by never leaving to restock, but how worthwhile is that?
- Map out levelling Luna to 1 (and further?)
- Mana Sword Magic 0 sufficient for 1-cycle?
- Mana Sword Magic to avoid the 2nd flight instead of Cure?

============================

Chokepoints:
- Early game money
- 4k Money for Ice Country Neko
- Level 4 Salamando for Lime Slime
- Level 3 Sylph for Gorgon Bull
- Level 4 Gnome for Thunder Gigas

Very nice writeup, thank you :)

A few notes to your notes:
- I will most likely opt to buy more equipment after Spiky Tiger for my other characters in my next run - it is just too useful to not get for the entire early game
- I was thinking of the Moogle Claw myself. It might work better against some enemies I had trouble with so far - most notably flying enemies that can not be ballooned
- I completely overlooked, that there are other weapons outside of the bow that give +int o__o.. Thank you
- I will probably go for the Javelin - I disagree on it being the weakest choice, because the Balloon-effect is extremely useful in many areas before that. Most notably, you could get that effect before the Ice Country if you open the chest in the King Mushrooms room (Although that cuts into the budget for the Walnuts). So it would just be upgraded slightly further after that + you could have it already before the Pure Lands

[to the edit]Wait.. Does that mean we could naturally over-upgrade the glove-weapon by doing this stuff out of order?[/to the edit]

I have watched your new best time and made a few notes for myself. Those were not initially meant to be public, so the wording and formatting might be weird. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

[code]Notable differences between Crows and my run + some new ideas:
- A lot more stone saber along the way
- Canon after Fire Gigas instead of walking + levelling gnome
- Kilroy without additional levelling session of Undine...
-> Try to have 10 MP on the Sprite after getting Undine for earlier levels
- First Sylph levelling, use Silence instead.. No reason to kill outside of Stone weapons
- 2nd Sylph... Killing stuff here is not necessarily worthwhile outside of gaining weapon levels
- Thunderbolt + 2 Faerie walnuts for Great Viper
- MP GETS RESTORED AFTER SANDSHIP STUFF

- I don't bother levelling Undine all the way up -> He has 7 MP left over after the fight
- If I have 4 Faerie Walnuts at Frost Forest Neko.. I can just go. No need to restock anymore
- Lava Wave instead of Fire Bouquet... Gives 3 more Salamando spellcasts for the Sprite
- Ice Gigas: 3 Exploder + Fireball, 2 Exploder + Fireballs
- Minorous: No Sylph levelling before, just Thunderbolt
- Lava Wave the Blue slimes.. We have easily enough MP left over
- Vampire: Exploder instead o.o.. I mean.. We do have sufficient Faerie Walnuts in there..
- Metal Mantis: Various stuff, Gem Missile spam in the end o.0
- Mech Rider II: More Gnome levelling.. And Salamando Exploder
- Do some more spell levelling before the Circlet thingy village (I Definitely want to get rid of that)
- More Freeze casts inside the Shadow temple -> Way more efficient
- Key right after acquiring Flammie still, but no need for the Lazuri Ring yet (Don't farm the gold on Embermen)
- Has to level Sylphid before Gorgon Bull -> level 3 beforehand is fine
- He starts levelling the girls Luna magic. Level 1 is probably worthwhile to achieve early
- No need to Absorb MP from the poor Karon guy, gets restored anyways on the way to the mountain
-> Maybe level some magic on the way up, since it's such a pain to climb anyways?
- Gnome via Gem Missile (?) to level 4 on Watermelon [Don't forget Lady luna magic]
-- I don't need to restock here though.
- Figure out despawns for the Tree Palace areas
-- I gain time by never leaving to restock, but how worthwhile is that?
- Map out levelling Luna to 1 (and further?)
- Mana Sword Magic 0 sufficient for 1-cycle?
- Mana Sword Magic to avoid the 2nd flight instead of Cure?

============================

Chokepoints:
- Early game money
- 4k Money for Ice Country Neko
- Level 4 Salamando for Lime Slime
- Level 3 Sylph for Gorgon Bull
- Level 4 Gnome for Thunder Gigas[/code]