Secret of Mana

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-11-17 09:24:51 am

2014-11-17 09:20:15 am

What's that gemma?

Dark Knights drop Gauntlets and Magic Armor. We'll almost assuredly be killing every one that spawns in range for a chest to be picked up, and that's sometimes going to involve killing one with magic while attempting to keep the others on the screen stunned long enough to kill it too.

StingerPA

2014-11-17 09:39:17 am

Quote from Crow!:

Executing the Mana Sword cutscene skip is pointless in this category, because you'll have to refresh the mana sword at some point during the fight; until the cutscene has played out once, each time you invoke the mana sword the cutscene will try to play out.

To be clear, if an enemy that we're killing with magic gets Wall up in time to reflect at a time when we cannot, or fail to, bring up an item ring to cancel the resulting damage, we will most likely have to reset and reload from our most recent save.

"Guard skips" should be more clearly defined.

Magic Roping before a cutscene definitely invokes glitches, and is never going to happen accidentally. Ban that.

The small benefit of using MP preemptively probably does not warrant trying to enforce a disqualification if a player does it accidentally.

Similarly, the benefit for remote talking is small, and there are cases where remote talking is likely due to absentmindedly continuing to mash buttons - for me, the most common ones are either to the Dwarf Village elder when he's getting the Sprite to join and Watts after he shows me the secret exit.

It might be necessary to educate players on what charge retention actually is so that they can deliberately avoid it, because setting they Boy's AI to charge level 2 seems ideal for a few of the fights around the 1 hour mark.

My main thoughts with the "No Ban" list was that these things were trivialities that really don't matter much in the run. I really wouldn't care much one way or the other. The only one I'd really want to keep is damage canceling, which nobody is opposed to anyways.

That said, I can agree with magic rope into cutscenes not being allowed, although I wouldn't DQ anyone over doing it just because it's so minor.

The Guard Skips I'm thinking of are mashing select through the matango guard, and the Southtown guard skip. I don't know of any others. I don't care much one way or the other, but the matango skip is probably the biggest time save in the bunch at around 30 seconds. That alone probably warrants the ban since it isn't something that would be normally used, even though select skipping is a very well known thing.

Remote talking doesn't matter much one way or the other, but I guess it doesn't hurt to exclude it.

I think everything else is fine. Is there anything I forgot to include on the list that should be mentioned?

[quote="Crow!"]Executing the Mana Sword cutscene skip is pointless in this category, because you'll have to refresh the mana sword at some point during the fight; until the cutscene has played out once, each time you invoke the mana sword the cutscene will try to play out.

To be clear, if an enemy that we're killing with magic gets Wall up in time to reflect at a time when we cannot, or fail to, bring up an item ring to cancel the resulting damage, we will most likely have to reset and reload from our most recent save.

"Guard skips" should be more clearly defined.

Magic Roping before a cutscene definitely invokes glitches, and is never going to happen accidentally.  Ban that.

The small benefit of using MP preemptively probably does not warrant trying to enforce a disqualification if a player does it accidentally.

Similarly, the benefit for remote talking is small, and there are cases where remote talking is likely due to absentmindedly continuing to mash buttons - for me, the most common ones are either to the Dwarf Village elder when he's getting the Sprite to join and Watts after he shows me the secret exit.

It might be necessary to educate players on what charge retention actually is so that they can deliberately avoid it, because setting they Boy's AI to charge level 2 seems ideal for a few of the fights around the 1 hour mark.[/quote]
My main thoughts with the "No Ban" list was that these things were trivialities that really don't matter much in the run.  I really wouldn't care much one way or the other.  The only one I'd really want to keep is damage canceling, which nobody is opposed to anyways.

That said, I can agree with magic rope into cutscenes not being allowed, although I wouldn't DQ anyone over doing it just because it's so minor.

The Guard Skips I'm thinking of are mashing select through the matango guard, and the Southtown guard skip.  I don't know of any others.  I don't care much one way or the other, but the matango skip is probably the biggest time save in the bunch at around 30 seconds.  That alone probably warrants the ban since it isn't something that would be normally used, even though select skipping is a very well known thing.

Remote talking doesn't matter much one way or the other, but I guess it doesn't hurt to exclude it.

I think everything else is fine.  Is there anything I forgot to include on the list that should be mentioned?

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-11-18 08:53:43 pm

2014-11-18 08:40:07 pm

What's that gemma?

I've almost completed a glitchless exploratory run. I died during the Mana Beast fight, and I didn't save since entering the Mana Fortress so I didn't feel like going through all that again. Below are the notes I made during the run.

Level 2 Werewolves??
If so, subsequently deal with the Eye Spy button, THEN head back to Gaia's Navel.

At Gaia's Navel, I want Plot + Power Wrist + elbow pad + head gear + candy
= 100+150+90+70+20 = 430

Werewolves drop either Cups of Wishes or Kung Fu Dresses.

You must have level 1 Freeze before heading to Fire Gigas; getting the Sprite to 92 HP for 10 MP is probably impractical, though. Fire Gigas may require some physical hits if you get bad damage rolls. Practice 10x Speed Down on the way to Pandora.

Do 11/12 more Speed Downs and 4 Freezes before committing to Wall Face (kill zombies and the tomato man in the meanwhile, and consider having the girl practice something).
Pick up Sword Orb from King.
Note: bad damage rolls might leave you in an unwinnable fight against Wall Face (if his eyes start healing, your damage output is just not high enough). For a race setting, it may be a good idea to either level Gnome up to 2 or buy a walnut just to be sure.

Need to use 1 Faerie Walnut at Jabberwocky, and need to start that fight with level 2 Gnome. Deal with Kilroy physically apart from 1 clip of Freeze (spent after the wheel comes out).

Practice Sylphid magic along the way to Matango and again at the Matango cave exterior so that it's level 1 before heading in to fight the Viper. Use only level 0 physical attacks vs Viper; charged attacks are asking for trouble.

Boreal Face requires level 3 Freeze. Practice on Howlers if you haven't obtained that level yet. Then pick up Salamando and head back to town in order to gain MP and Walnuts and practice Salamando up to level 1. I'm not sure whether Fireball or Lava Wave is faster for practicing.

Embermen are not to be played with; an all-targeted Freeze should wipe the room, though. Consider killing Dark Knights and waiting a second to see if they drop awesome armor.
Lime Slime requires level 4 Salamando heading in to the fight, unfortunately. Level up Salamando while grinding enough money for a Circlet (+5 Intelligence for Sprite, like Lazuri Ring, for sale at Mandala).

Get Lazuri Ring on the way in to the Gold Tower. You should have level 2 Sylphid; this requires a full clip per spell cycle vs the Gorgon Bull, whereas level 3 is only 4 casts. Blue Spike requires high level Freeze (you'll probably get level 5 during the fight).

Use Change Form to get past Metal Crawlers and other obstructing enemies in the Tree Palace dungeons. Kimono Wizards are good MP Absorb targets, as is anything that has been Change Form-ed.

Treat Mech Rider III like a Watermelon fight that you know will go bad; give only a fraction of a second of spellcasting time in between sets of 999 damage, and you can get 2-3 sets of damage in before you have to Dispel the Wall. Avoiding invoking the Wall Glitch in this fight is very hard; it may be worth safety saving before the fight in case you accidentally cheat.
(Yes Yaga, you CAN gain experience during boss fights. This fight and the Watermelon fight are the two biggest reasons I feel any category which bans the Wall Glitch can't be taken seriously.)

Consider using Barrels to get through the area between the Red Dragon and the Thunder Gigas. Return home for additional Walnuts after the Snow Dragon; this conveniently also gives you an opportunity to spend a walnut on the Girl practicing magic during the fights.

Dryad probably needs to be level 2 before the Mana Beast fight, and it would be nice if the girl's Luna were at level 2 as well (3 whacks per cast rather than 1). Set the Boy's AI to charge level 3; being unable to pull up a menu for 3 charge levels' worth of time is much too optimistic.

It's probably a good idea to head back home and restock on Walnuts between Dread Slime and the final two fights. Thanatos has a lot of HP, and the Mana Beast fight is going to be a marathon session without the Infinite Mana Sword.

When the Mana Sword is revived or when it is un-revived, it cancels your current charge level, so be sure to release attacks before then. It might be worth refreshing Mana Magic preemptively instead of letting it fall off and return.

I've almost completed a glitchless exploratory run.  I died during the Mana Beast fight, and I didn't save since entering the Mana Fortress so I didn't feel like going through all that again.  Below are the notes I made during the run.

[spoiler]
Level 2 Werewolves??
If so, subsequently deal with the Eye Spy button, THEN head back to Gaia's Navel.

At Gaia's Navel, I want Plot + Power Wrist + elbow pad + head gear + candy
   = 100+150+90+70+20 = 430

Werewolves drop either Cups of Wishes or Kung Fu Dresses.

You must have level 1 Freeze before heading to Fire Gigas; getting the Sprite to 92 HP for 10 MP is probably impractical, though.  Fire Gigas may require some physical hits if you get bad damage rolls.  Practice 10x Speed Down on the way to Pandora.

Do 11/12 more Speed Downs and 4 Freezes before committing to Wall Face (kill zombies and the tomato man in the meanwhile, and consider having the girl practice something).
Pick up Sword Orb from King.
Note: bad damage rolls might leave you in an unwinnable fight against Wall Face (if his eyes start healing, your damage output is just not high enough).  For a race setting, it may be a good idea to either level Gnome up to 2 or buy a walnut just to be sure.

Need to use 1 Faerie Walnut at Jabberwocky, and need to start that fight with level 2 Gnome.  Deal with Kilroy physically apart from 1 clip of Freeze (spent after the wheel comes out).

Practice Sylphid magic along the way to Matango and again at the Matango cave exterior so that it's level 1 before heading in to fight the Viper.  Use only level 0 physical attacks vs Viper; charged attacks are asking for trouble.

Boreal Face requires level 3 Freeze.  Practice on Howlers if you haven't obtained that level yet.  Then pick up Salamando and head back to town in order to gain MP and Walnuts and practice Salamando up to level 1.  I'm not sure whether Fireball or Lava Wave is faster for practicing.

Embermen are not to be played with; an all-targeted Freeze should wipe the room, though.  Consider killing Dark Knights and waiting a second to see if they drop awesome armor.
Lime Slime requires level 4 Salamando heading in to the fight, unfortunately.  Level up Salamando while grinding enough money for a Circlet (+5 Intelligence for Sprite, like Lazuri Ring, for sale at Mandala).

Get Lazuri Ring on the way in to the Gold Tower.  You should have level 2 Sylphid; this requires a full clip per spell cycle vs the Gorgon Bull, whereas level 3 is only 4 casts. Blue Spike requires high level Freeze (you'll probably get level 5 during the fight).

Use Change Form to get past Metal Crawlers and other obstructing enemies in the Tree Palace dungeons.  Kimono Wizards are good MP Absorb targets, as is anything that has been Change Form-ed.

Treat Mech Rider III like a Watermelon fight that you know will go bad; give only a fraction of a second of spellcasting time in between sets of 999 damage, and you can get 2-3 sets of damage in before you have to Dispel the Wall.  Avoiding invoking the Wall Glitch in this fight is very hard; it may be worth safety saving before the fight in case you accidentally cheat.
(Yes Yaga, you CAN gain experience during boss fights.  This fight and the Watermelon fight are the two biggest reasons I feel any category which bans the Wall Glitch can't be taken seriously.)

Consider using Barrels to get through the area between the Red Dragon and the Thunder Gigas.  Return home for additional Walnuts after the Snow Dragon; this conveniently also gives you an opportunity to spend a walnut on the Girl practicing magic during the fights.

Dryad probably needs to be level 2 before the Mana Beast fight, and it would be nice if the girl's Luna were at level 2 as well (3 whacks per cast rather than 1).  Set the Boy's AI to charge level 3; being unable to pull up a menu for 3 charge levels' worth of time is much too optimistic.

It's probably a good idea to head back home and restock on Walnuts between Dread Slime and the final two fights.  Thanatos has a lot of HP, and the Mana Beast fight is going to be a marathon session without the Infinite Mana Sword.

When the Mana Sword is revived or when it is un-revived, it cancels your current charge level, so be sure to release attacks before then.  It might be worth refreshing Mana Magic preemptively instead of letting it fall off and return.
[/spoiler]

the_roth

2014-11-19 12:13:40 am

DO THE MEATEO

Hi, thought I'd introduce myself. I'm the_roth and I mainly do Final Fantasy IV speedruns but do enjoy doing the SoM Magic% run just for fun (have a 12:32 so far). Would like to learn the 1p2c run eventually although I've been putting it off for quite some time. Here's hoping!

Yagamoth

2014-11-19 04:43:49 am

INTJ

Welcome, the_roth, nice to see someone new ^^
If you ever need any help, feel free to ask Smiley

Thank you for the notes, Crow. I'll probably try to come up with my own strategies and see how they compare during the race. One thing I'll probably try is getting the Headband in Potos for the Boy and then not buying any more headgear aside from the Rabite Cap and Hairband until way later

Also, no Midge Mallet? Or did you simply not note that? I assume the Midge Mallet to spam spells faster is good to use as a strategy, right?

On that note, does Midge Mallet damage cancelling go under our definition of glitchless or not?

Also, I'll simply use only one controller for now ^^

Crow!

2014-11-19 07:28:52 am

What's that gemma?

Hello, roth! If you'd like, you can join our minimally-planned "glitchless" race this coming Saturday morning; we're going to start at 8:00AM Eastern US time.

I just didn't note the Mallet, since it's part of my 1p1c route. Damage canceling of all forms is fair game.

It might even be worth it to go all the way back to Gaia's Navel by foot after Jabberwocky to pick up the Mallet, but that requires a lot of backtracking. I didn't do it in my exploratory run.

I think I'm okay with multiple controllers if it's just the 3 of us racing, but I'm not sure how many other players would actually have a multiple controller setup prepared, much less have a clue how to make use of them.

Yagamoth

2014-11-19 07:32:50 am

INTJ

That's an interesting idea, getting the Midge Mallet early... Khovastiz and Shaeden used to do that in their coop run. I'm not sure it would be worth it, but worth a consideration

On a different note, I'm going to take another look at the menues, comparing the Girl vs Sprite Sword handling for 1p2c

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-11-19 09:45:10 am

Yagamoth: 2014-11-19 09:44:35 am

Yagamoth: 2014-11-19 09:39:30 am

Yagamoth: 2014-11-19 09:38:49 am

Yagamoth: 2014-11-19 08:25:12 am

Yagamoth: 2014-11-19 07:49:13 am

Yagamoth: 2014-11-19 07:46:41 am

2014-11-19 07:45:08 am

INTJ

Found an interesting old post of mine:

Quote:

I compiled a small list of: Where else could we potentially use the "Disconnect 3rd controller" in a run? I mean, all things considered, there is no real reason to not use Player 1 and 3 instead of Player 1 and 2.

- Landing in the Upper lands, the first cutscene + Talking to any Moogle
- After killing the Pebblers and making the round through the Forest -> Where the way to the village opens, the textbox can be used
- Moving to the right towards the Mech Rider #1 during the textbox (and later #2 and #3)
- Fire Temple, moving to the right to the seed during the textbox
- Southtown, faster guard skip setup
- Ruins 2, stepping on the 1st switch (ensuring you don't get hit by the blue blobs)
- Ruins 2, stepping on the 2nd switch (Moving to the door while the textbox is displayed)
- Castle intro, Emperors room, moving while the textbox is displayed (where is everyone?)
- Moving towards outside after defeating the dopplegangers (?)
- Moving towards the stairs after defeating the Aegragopilon (?)
- Moving during the textbox upstairs, after defeating the Lizard Dragon (Looks odd)

I plan on testing and implementing those things soon.. Once I stop being lazy and set up my console stuff I mean.

Edit: Add to that, Luka cutscene after Jabberwocky
Edit2: Holy smokes, I just realized - every time we'd want to deactivate the 2nd controller we could simply disable the device and the game will do that for us o_o

Edit 3:
It's 1.5 seconds faster (3x up/down menu) to equip the Axe on the Boy upon entering Matango, instead of the Sprite. The only difference is, that the Boy then is going to be in the weapons menu instead of items. But even if you need to change that back, that's only 1 more up/down menu (0.5 seconds).

=========================================================================

Actually.. I may not even have to use the entire spreadsheet to figure out whether it's worthwhile to keep the Sword on the Sprite.. We only have to take a look at the significant changes and impact points.

Difference #1
Since the Girl joins after the Sprite equips the Ax for the Matango entrance we have a little freedom with minimal cost. We won't need the Whip until the mountain climb - but we will definitely need the Whip BEFORE the Ax. Since the Sprite will have to cast spells before the mountain climb, optimally he'd equip the Whip before switching to the spells menu for the Girl sword route. On the other hand, the Girl (in theory) never has to switch away from the weapons menu and thus would save a little time equipping the Whip instead (Sprite sword route).

Pro Girl Sword route:
- Could opt to keep the Ax on the Sprite for a small time loss (~1 second, 2 up movements)

Pro Sprite Sword route:
- Girl could keep the knuckles-weapon or switch to the Whip at any point without any time loss at all

If the Girl Sword route equips the Whip on the Sprite immediately after Matango Exit, the routes are almost equal in time. The minimal difference is, that the Girl will not have any left/right movement in the menu to equip the Sword. Negligible.

Difference #2
Orbs the Sprite needs to activate:
1) Earth Temple
2) Forest Orb
3) Great Viper Cave Orb
4) Fire Palace Orb #1
5) Fire Palace Orb #2
6) Fire Palace Orb #3
.... That's it.

So that's a 3 second time loss, for the Sprite sword route to switch the menu twice from Weapons to Spirits and back.

Difference #3
There are two Sword Charge Jumps the Boy will have to perform instead of the Sprite, in the Girl Sword route.

1) Joch Barrier Skip
- We can simply swap to the Sword on Mech Rider #2
- So this is a time loss of 1 swap + starting the charge on the Watermelon with the Sword (according to my count thats 88 frames more)

2) Mana Fortress Barrier Skip
- We swap to the Sword on Mech Rider #3
- We probably want to swap back to the Spear before Buffy, so we don't have to worry about missing an early good pattern on Buffy
- So that's a time loss of 2 swaps

Total of 3 additional sword swaps. According to Stingers spreadsheet, 1 weapon swap equals 161 frames (open menu, move 2 to the right, swap)
3 * 161 + 88 = 571
So that's a little more than 9.5 seconds (9.51666666..) lost using the Girl weapon Route here.

Sidenote: We can safely ignore all spellwalk menus, since we can simply use Barrels instead.

In conclusion: The Girl Sword Weapon route is about 6.5 seconds slower, assuming you equip the Whip on the Sprite after Matango. (If you keep the Ax until the Mountains it's 7.5 seconds)

Did I forget anything?

Found an interesting old post of mine:

[quote]
I compiled a small list of: Where else could we potentially use the "Disconnect 3rd controller" in a run? I mean, all things considered, there is no real reason to not use Player 1 and 3 instead of Player 1 and 2.

- Landing in the Upper lands, the first cutscene + Talking to any Moogle
- After killing the Pebblers and making the round through the Forest -> Where the way to the village opens, the textbox can be used
- Moving to the right towards the Mech Rider #1 during the textbox (and later #2 and #3)
- Fire Temple, moving to the right to the seed during the textbox
- Southtown, faster guard skip setup
- Ruins 2, stepping on the 1st switch (ensuring you don't get hit by the blue blobs)
- Ruins 2, stepping on the 2nd switch (Moving to the door while the textbox is displayed)
- Castle intro, Emperors room, moving while the textbox is displayed (where is everyone?)
- Moving towards outside after defeating the dopplegangers (?)
- Moving towards the stairs after defeating the Aegragopilon (?)
- Moving during the textbox upstairs, after defeating the Lizard Dragon (Looks odd)
[/quote]

I plan on testing and implementing those things soon.. Once I stop being lazy and set up my console stuff I mean.

Edit: Add to that, Luka cutscene after Jabberwocky
Edit2: Holy smokes, I just realized - every time we'd want to deactivate the 2nd controller we could simply disable the device and the game will do that for us o_o

Edit 3: 
It's 1.5 seconds faster (3x up/down menu) to equip the Axe on the Boy upon entering Matango, instead of the Sprite. The only difference is, that the Boy then is going to be in the weapons menu instead of items. But even if you need to change that back, that's only 1 more up/down menu (0.5 seconds).

=========================================================================

Actually.. I may not even have to use the entire spreadsheet to figure out whether it's worthwhile to keep the Sword on the Sprite.. We only have to take a look at the significant changes and impact points.

[b]Difference #1[/b]
Since the Girl joins after the Sprite equips the Ax for the Matango entrance we have a little freedom with minimal cost. We won't need the Whip until the mountain climb - but we will definitely need the Whip BEFORE the Ax. Since the Sprite will have to cast spells before the mountain climb, optimally he'd equip the Whip before switching to the spells menu for the Girl sword route. On the other hand, the Girl (in theory) never has to switch away from the weapons menu and thus would save a little time equipping the Whip instead (Sprite sword route).

Pro Girl Sword route:
- Could opt to keep the Ax on the Sprite for a small time loss ([color="purple"][b]~1 second[/b][/color], 2 up movements)

Pro Sprite Sword route:
- Girl could keep the knuckles-weapon or switch to the Whip at any point without any time loss at all

If the Girl Sword route equips the Whip on the Sprite immediately after Matango Exit, the routes are almost equal in time. The minimal difference is, that the Girl will not have any left/right movement in the menu to equip the Sword. Negligible.

[b]Difference #2[/b]
Orbs the Sprite needs to activate:
1) Earth Temple
2) Forest Orb
3) Great Viper Cave Orb
4) Fire Palace Orb #1
5) Fire Palace Orb #2
6) Fire Palace Orb #3
.... That's it.

So that's a [color="green"][b]3 second time loss[/b], for the [b]Sprite sword route[/b][/color] to switch the menu twice from Weapons to Spirits and back.

[b]Difference #3[/b]
There are two Sword Charge Jumps the Boy will have to perform instead of the Sprite, in the Girl Sword route.

1) Joch Barrier Skip
- We can simply swap to the Sword on Mech Rider #2
- So this is a time loss of 1 swap + starting the charge on the Watermelon with the Sword (according to my count thats 88 frames more)

2) Mana Fortress Barrier Skip
- We swap to the Sword on Mech Rider #3
- We probably want to swap back to the Spear before Buffy, so we don't have to worry about missing an early good pattern on Buffy
- So that's a time loss of 2 swaps

Total of 3 additional sword swaps. According to Stingers spreadsheet, 1 weapon swap equals 161 frames (open menu, move 2 to the right, swap)
3 * 161 + 88 = 571
So that's a little more than [color="purple"][b]9.5 seconds (9.51666666..) lost using the Girl weapon Route here[/b][/color].

Sidenote: [b]We can safely ignore all spellwalk menus, since we can simply use Barrels instead. [/b]

[b]In conclusion:[/b] The Girl Sword Weapon route is about 6.5 seconds slower, assuming you equip the Whip on the Sprite after Matango. (If you keep the Ax until the Mountains it's 7.5 seconds)

Did I forget anything?

Musashi

2014-11-19 10:01:13 am

But time flows like a river...

What is european time for 8:00AM? Cheesy

I wanna see the race!

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-11-19 10:24:58 am

2014-11-19 10:24:44 am

INTJ

That's going to be 2 PM our time

You are invited to join if you'd like to. Considering I have never done an actual 1c run, you probably have more experience than me in that kind of thing ^^

I'm going into that race with little to no plan Tongue

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-11-20 01:48:44 am

2014-11-20 01:18:56 am

INTJ

I actually forgot something: Casting Balloon in the Sewers and casting Wall on Dread Slime.

So this would mean for the Girl Sword route, that it takes 2*4 additional up/down movements in the menu, which results in around another 4 seconds lost compared to the Sprite Sword route, resulting in a total of 10.5 seconds lost on the Sprite Sword route.

Further, the Sprite Sword route would then have the advantage, of the Girl always being on the magic-menu, and we could use spellwalking instead of barrels, freeing barrels for quick damage cancels.

The obvious disadvantage is, that we are not used to the analyzer timing for lockdowns. I believe it's slightly slower? (Minor advantage is, that we can see the Boss' HP :P)

=========================

Edit: the difference between Analyzer and Slow Down:

Slow Down
- Startup time: 136 frames
- Lockdown duration: 149 frames
= 285 frames total

Analyzer
- Startup time: 160 frames
- Lockdown duration: 176 frames
= 336 frames total

Startup time is from when I hit the "B" button in the menu until the lockdown took effect

I might be off by 2-3 frames, I only looked at the animation, not the vulnerability. Further, keep the 5 frame rule in mind, so there might be up to 9 frames of variance if I'm unlucky. Didn't bother to test it too much right now. But it's enough for a quick conclusion:

- Every use of Analyzer over Slow Down results in ~51 frames of time lost (that's 0.85 seconds)

Lockdowns:
- 1, Ice Gigas
- 3, Vampire (best case only 2, but on average we'll have 3)
- 5, Buffy (best case only 4)

So that's a total of 459 frames, or 7.65 seconds... I think I just figured out, that the Sprite Sword route over the Girl sword route is almost neutral.. The more Analyzer casts we have to do, the more time the Sprite Sword route loses.

In effect, the difference between the two routes seems to be around 5 seconds in advantage of the Sprite Sword route in best case scenario of minimal spell lockdown usage. It needs 6 more analyzer casts to be equal in the end.

Also on a small sidenote, I just realized, that if you get 2 low damage rolls on Buffy, you'll need an additional hit, since you'd lack approximately 60 damage o_o

I actually forgot something: Casting Balloon in the Sewers and casting Wall on Dread Slime.

So this would mean for the Girl Sword route, that it takes 2*4 additional up/down movements in the menu, which results in around another 4 seconds lost compared to the Sprite Sword route, resulting in a total of [b]10.5 seconds lost on the Sprite Sword[/b] route.

Further, the Sprite Sword route would then have the advantage, of the Girl always being on the magic-menu, and we could use spellwalking instead of barrels, freeing barrels for quick damage cancels.

The obvious disadvantage is, that we are not used to the analyzer timing for lockdowns. I believe it's slightly slower? (Minor advantage is, that we can see the Boss' HP :P)

=========================

Edit: the difference between Analyzer and Slow Down:

[b]Slow Down[/b]
- Startup time: 136 frames
- Lockdown duration: 149 frames
= 285 frames total

[b]Analyzer[/b]
- Startup time: 160 frames
- Lockdown duration: 176 frames
= 336 frames total

[b]Startup time[/b] is from when I hit the "B" button in the menu until the lockdown took effect

I might be off by 2-3 frames, I only looked at the animation, not the vulnerability. Further, keep the 5 frame rule in mind, so there might be up to 9 frames of variance if I'm unlucky. Didn't bother to test it too much right now. But it's enough for a quick conclusion:

- Every use of Analyzer over Slow Down results in ~51 frames of time lost (that's 0.85 seconds)

Lockdowns:
- 1, Ice Gigas
- 3, Vampire (best case only 2, but on average we'll have 3)
- 5, Buffy (best case only 4)

So that's a total of 459 frames, or 7.65 seconds... I think I just figured out, that the Sprite Sword route over the Girl sword route is almost neutral.. The more Analyzer casts we have to do, the more time the Sprite Sword route loses.

In effect, the difference between the two routes seems to be around [b]5 seconds in advantage of the Sprite Sword route[/b] in best case scenario of minimal spell lockdown usage. It needs 6 more analyzer casts to be equal in the end.

Also on a small sidenote, I just realized, that if you get 2 low damage rolls on Buffy, you'll need an additional hit, since you'd lack approximately 60 damage o_o

Musashi

Edit history:

Musashi: 2014-11-22 03:50:55 am

2014-11-22 03:49:38 am

But time flows like a river...

Quote from Yagamoth:

That's going to be 2 PM our time

You are invited to join if you'd like to. Considering I have never done an actual 1c run, you probably have more experience than me in that kind of thing ^^

I'm going into that race with little to no plan Tongue

Thanks for the offer but I pass, I am like an old man now, just watching and enjoying. Cheesy

Good luck for it anyway, I think Crow! will take the crown. XD

Crow!

2014-11-23 11:55:35 am

What's that gemma?

Well, I emerged victorious in the glitchless race. Here's my side of the race: http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/c/5548873

I'm not going to be continuing on with this category myself; there are too many cases where one must go out of the way to remain "glitchless", and too much reliance on aspects of the game which are grey areas to begin with (activating midge mallet 12 times per Mana Beast cycle is pretty silly). For anyone who may go forward with this category, there are some interesting ideas that I tried, some of which worked out and some of which did not. I think a good initial goal for the category is to break 5 hours.

Crow!

2014-12-05 08:06:38 pm

What's that gemma?

For Blue Spike, it turns out that you can cast spells on him during his fake death animation, and the fake death will cancel the spells' animations but he'll still take damage. Therefore, for 1p1c, the optimal strategy now appears to be to first score two WCG hits, then finish him off with magic while he's exploding.

Yagamoth

2014-12-06 04:10:26 am

INTJ

Interesting, that definitely sounds faster. Nice catch Smiley

On a tiny different note:
I was messing around with skipping the Water Palace cutscene, only talking to a guard and then heading to Gaias Navel. I went to the Water Palace cutscene after getting Sprite, before performing the Girl skip. During that cutscene I activated the bridge with the 2nd controller and I also activated the mana seed by standing above it before Luka told me to do that. I was not successful, it still softlocked after beating Spiky... But, here's an interesting little thing:
- In Elinees castle, right before the 2 annoying werewolves on the bridges, the gate was already open when I arrived

There might be something..

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-12-06 10:59:33 am

Crow!: 2014-12-06 10:37:20 am

Crow!: 2014-12-06 10:36:23 am

Crow!: 2014-12-06 10:35:48 am

Crow!: 2014-12-06 10:31:59 am

Crow!: 2014-12-06 10:30:29 am

2014-12-06 10:24:32 am

What's that gemma?

2 walnut slots is nice, but can we do better?

Go to the Neko on the right side of the Gaia's Navel cave (before going to the Dwarf Village)
Buy candy, herb.
Exit and select Herb in item ring.
Sell candy, herb.
Bring up buying menu.
Bring up selling menu.
Sell 7x Blat from each of slots 1 and 2 in the faulty menu
-- NOTE: the default selection is slot number 2, not slot number 1. You can select slot 1 by pressing right.
Buy stuff, starting with Walnuts.
Sell 1x Blat from slot 2.
Buy Walnuts.
Sell 1x Blat from slot 1.
Buy Walnuts.
Now you have 3 Walnut slots.

Once you get the rope, this will be at the end of your inventory, rather than at the start. The item ring will look identical, though, up until you get Flammie Drum.

This could be taken further, getting 4 Walnut slots at the cost (and benefit, since I wouldn't have to grab the sub-optimal Gold City equipment) of selling 8 more total blats.

This requires a couple extra screen transitions, but it also means not needing to talk to Neko in the Forest.

------

To get the goblin event to occur, you need flag 11 to be at least B, and you need flag 2E to be 0.

Flag 11 is in charge of the conversation with Dyluck's troops as well as the conversation with Luka, as well as where the Potos Cannon takes you. Talking to a troop that mentions Dyluck's name sets it to 1, then seeing them leave sets it to 2.

Flag 2E starts at 0, but is made 2 once Jema asks you to enter the Water Palace, unless you got variable 11 to be nonzero prior to entering the palace.

So, I bring to you: 2 girls, 1 cauldron

Talk to the troop that mentions Dyluck's name.
Cannon to Gaia's Navel.
Save the Girl from the Werewolves.
Go back to the Water Palace.
Talk to Dyluck with the Girl.
Be baffled as she completely fails to react to the fact that she's talking to Dyluck
Complete the Water Palace cutscene.
Have the girl selected, and walk south toward the Potos Cannon.
Kashimashi.

I was hoping to then re-add the girl to the party in Pandora Castle, but that doesn't happen.

2 walnut slots is nice, but can we do better?

Go to the Neko on the right side of the Gaia's Navel cave (before going to the Dwarf Village)
Buy candy, herb.
Exit and select Herb in item ring.
Sell candy, herb.
Bring up buying menu.
Bring up selling menu.
Sell 7x Blat from each of slots 1 and 2 in the faulty menu
-- NOTE: the default selection is slot number 2, not slot number 1.  You can select slot 1 by pressing right.
Buy stuff, starting with Walnuts.
Sell 1x Blat from slot 2.
Buy Walnuts.
Sell 1x Blat from slot 1.
Buy Walnuts.
Now you have 3 Walnut slots.

Once you get the rope, this will be at the end of your inventory, rather than at the start.  The item ring will look identical, though, up until you get Flammie Drum.

This could be taken further, getting 4 Walnut slots at the cost (and benefit, since I wouldn't have to grab the sub-optimal Gold City equipment) of selling 8 more total blats.

This requires a couple extra screen transitions, but it also means not needing to talk to Neko in the Forest.

------

To get the goblin event to occur, you need flag 11 to be at least B, and you need flag 2E to be 0.

Flag 11 is in charge of the conversation with Dyluck's troops as well as the conversation with Luka, as well as where the Potos Cannon takes you. Talking to a troop that mentions Dyluck's name sets it to 1, then seeing them leave sets it to 2.

Flag 2E starts at 0, but is made 2 once Jema asks you to enter the Water Palace, unless you got variable 11 to be nonzero prior to entering the palace.

So, I bring to you: 2 girls, 1 cauldron

Talk to the troop that mentions Dyluck's name.
Cannon to Gaia's Navel.
Save the Girl from the Werewolves.
Go back to the Water Palace.
Talk to Dyluck with the Girl.
Be baffled as she completely fails to react to the fact that [i]she's talking to Dyluck[/i]
Complete the Water Palace cutscene.
Have the girl selected, and walk south toward the Potos Cannon.
Kashimashi.

I was hoping to then re-add the girl to the party in Pandora Castle, but that doesn't happen.

Crow!

2014-12-06 03:41:04 pm

What's that gemma?

To get into Undine's cave, Flag 11 (the same one from my previous post) needs to be at least D. This is supposed to happen during the exit event from the Witch's Castle. However, strangely, rather than simply setting flag 11 to D at this point, it instead checks to ensure that flag 11 is C, then increases it by 1.

So, if you skipped talking to Luka in the Water Palace by talking to a guard and leaving like Yagamoth mentioned, flag 11 will not be C, and you'll be unable to rescue Undine.

If you could somehow fight Jabberwocky, Kilroy, or Watermelon without first getting Undine, then you could set flag 11 to a high enough number to enter Undine's cave.

So, how can we progress?

Underground Palace is not an option, since we don't have Undine for the Crystal Orb, so we can't unlock Pandora that way.

To get in the Pandora Ruins, we need flag 12 to be exactly 7 - this is what makes Phanna appear at the gates. Ordinarily, this requires talking to Phanna while flag a8 is nonzero.

A8 is incremented when you beat the Fire Gigas, and again when you talk to Gnome.
Without Undine, this isn't an option.

However, THIS time the inconsistency of the game between incrementing flags and setting them works in our favor rather than against it:

Flag 12 is incremented (presumably to 1) when you complete the scripted sealing of the Water seed.
--- Unlike most of the flag increments in this game (including some increments for flag 12), this does NOT first check that flag 12 is actually 0 as expected.

Flag 12 is set to 6 if flag 17 is at least 6 when you enter Pandora (so that Phanna wanders around outside)
Flag 17 is set to 6 when you kill Spikey Tiger.

So, if we move around the order of these events:
- Kill Spikey.
- Visit Pandora.
- Complete the Water Seed sealing event.
Now Phanna will appear in front of the Ruins, ready to let you in.
(You'll be rescued from Goblins by the Girl along the way.)

- Defeat Wall Face.
The Water Seed is now stolen.
- Defeat Kilroy.
Jabberwocky and Undine are now both available.

From here, the big problem is going to be the Matango Cave. We haven't completed the Underground Palace, so we don't have Earth Slide for the Crystal Orb there. So, we probably now have to backtrack to Gaia's Navel to complete the Underground Palace, at which point this weird re-ordering of events is pretty much guaranteed to be slower than the current 1p2c route.

On the plus side, when/if you do return to Gaia's Navel, the Midge Mallet will be available.

To get into Undine's cave, Flag 11 (the same one from my previous post) needs to be at least D.  This is supposed to happen during the exit event from the Witch's Castle.  However, strangely, rather than simply setting flag 11 to D at this point, it instead checks to ensure that flag 11 is C, then increases it by 1.

So, if you skipped talking to Luka in the Water Palace by talking to a guard and leaving like Yagamoth mentioned, flag 11 will not be C, and you'll be unable to rescue Undine.

If you could somehow fight Jabberwocky, Kilroy, or Watermelon without first getting Undine, then you could set flag 11 to a high enough number to enter Undine's cave.

So, how can we progress?

Underground Palace is not an option, since we don't have Undine for the Crystal Orb, so we can't unlock Pandora that way.

To get in the Pandora Ruins, we need flag 12 to be exactly 7 - this is what makes Phanna appear at the gates.  Ordinarily, this requires talking to Phanna while flag a8 is nonzero.

A8 is incremented when you beat the Fire Gigas, and again when you talk to Gnome.
Without Undine, this isn't an option.

However, THIS time the inconsistency of the game between incrementing flags and setting them works in our favor rather than against it:

Flag 12 is incremented (presumably to 1) when you complete the scripted sealing of the Water seed.
--- Unlike most of the flag increments in this game (including some increments for flag 12), this does NOT first check that flag 12 is actually 0 as expected.

Flag 12 is set to 6 if flag 17 is at least 6 when you enter Pandora (so that Phanna wanders around outside)
Flag 17 is set to 6 when you kill Spikey Tiger.

So, if we move around the order of these events:
- Kill Spikey.
- Visit Pandora.
- Complete the Water Seed sealing event.
Now Phanna will appear in front of the Ruins, ready to let you in.
(You'll be rescued from Goblins by the Girl along the way.)

- Defeat Wall Face.
The Water Seed is now stolen.
- Defeat Kilroy.
Jabberwocky and Undine are now both available.

From here, the big problem is going to be the Matango Cave.  We haven't completed the Underground Palace, so we don't have Earth Slide for the Crystal Orb there.  So, we probably now have to backtrack to Gaia's Navel to complete the Underground Palace, at which point this weird re-ordering of events is pretty much guaranteed to be slower than the current 1p2c route.

On the plus side, when/if you do return to Gaia's Navel, the Midge Mallet will be available.

Yagamoth

2014-12-06 03:56:16 pm

INTJ

oh oô.. Interesting

Question: Does repeatedly sealing the Water Seed help? What happens if you leave in the middle of the cutscene event in the water palace?

Crow!

2014-12-06 04:31:45 pm

What's that gemma?

All the useful event flags get changed immediately after this textbox is displayed:

"The world has 8 palaces.
Visit them all and receive
the power from them all!"

And immediately before "I'll restore you."

If you could somehow leave the event (controller 3 deactivation?) here, you would already have all the stuff you want... but I'm not convinced that would be faster than following through with the save Luka offers you in a second and save-warping to the bottom of the room.

I can't find anything useful that talking to the water seed does, apart from if the flags are set for the post-Jabberwocky event.

Crow!

2014-12-11 11:12:05 am

What's that gemma?

A minor trick that I don't think I've documented yet:

If you swap characters after calling up the rope, then you get the same effect as when you swap characters after casting a spell on a crystal orb. Upon arriving at your destination, you will not be locked out of actions for the first second like you ordinarily are.

This is only particularly useful when there's some distance to be traveled between where the rope places you and where you want to go. In 1p1c, the first time you exit Gaia's Navel is one case like this, as is the time you use the rope in the Grand Palace.

While we're at it, there's time to be saved by talking to the Dwarf Elder to get the Mallet while the rope is rising, rather than talking to him first and then calling the rope.

The Magic Rope is available in the Purelands, and its destination gets re-set each time you exit one of the save point rooms. This is useful for the Blue Dragon, where the room immediately before him is hard to traverse. Have the Girl or the Sprite selected, use the rope, and walk back toward the Dragon's room.

A minor trick that I don't think I've documented yet:

If you swap characters after calling up the rope, then you get the same effect as when you swap characters after casting a spell on a crystal orb.  Upon arriving at your destination, you will not be locked out of actions for the first second like you ordinarily are.

This is only particularly useful when there's some distance to be traveled between where the rope places you and where you want to go.  In 1p1c, the first time you exit Gaia's Navel is one case like this, as is the time you use the rope in the Grand Palace.

While we're at it, there's time to be saved by talking to the Dwarf Elder to get the Mallet while the rope is rising, rather than talking to him first and then calling the rope.

The Magic Rope is available in the Purelands, and its destination gets re-set each time you exit one of the save point rooms.  This is useful for the Blue Dragon, where the room immediately before him is hard to traverse.  Have the Girl or the Sprite selected, use the rope, and walk back toward the Dragon's room.

Crow!

2014-12-16 09:58:27 am

What's that gemma?

Last night I goofed around trying to see how far I could take the game without acquiring the Sprite. There were some entertaining results, and I ultimately softlocked the game by causing Tropicallo to not appear in his boss chamber. This happened because I talked to Watts while he was in the Upper Land forest.

Afterward, I started thinking about ways we could move things around to be actually productive. The Tropicallo fight at present takes a very long time because we don't have the weapon charge glitch for that fight. There's 40-45 seconds to be saved by WCG-ing that guy. In the 1 controller category, I also have to go through the middle third of the run without the Midge Mallet because it requires a whole extra trip, walking, to get to the Dwarf Village when it is first available.

So, my basic idea is to bail on the Sprite event by upgrading the sword, buying the Dwarf Village item shop stuff, and eavesdropping on the Elder and Sprite, but then magic roping before returning to the main village. This will cause Tropicallo to spawn the next time you enter the village. This will require picking up the Girl and walking through walls to get to the Witch's Castle.

Also, if I do the out-of-order Pandora Ruins, then I can get the Midge Mallet on the same trip as the one where I go to the Underground Palace, which saves time in all of the magic boss fights in the middle third of the game and eliminates the Flammie trip to Gaia's Navel.

So, one possible route looks like:

- Talk to Trooper 2, then cannon to Gaia's Navel rather than completing Water Palace.

- Triplicate Walnuts.
- Go to Dwarf Village.
- Upgrade Sword, then shop, then watch show.
- Call rope rather than walking to the main village.

- Fight Werewolves to get Girl.
--- In the usual case, this fight is very hard solo, but doable.
--- With perfect RNG (both Werewolves dashing toward you immediately and no stab attack), this is no slower than with the Sprite in tow.
--- I'm pretty sure I have to tag the Axe-able statues.

- Cannon to the Water Palace, walk through walls, and kill Spikey.
--- Does the Rope work in the Haunted Woods?
--- The girl's only weapon at this point is the Glove, unfortunately. I'll either have to go through extra effort to get the Spear or the Whip upgraded, or she'll be WCGing using a level 2 Glove (available after Tonpole).
----- Or, if I'm feeling really silly, I could equipment trash to un-equip the sword from the Boy and let the Girl use that. Not sure how this interacts with gaining weapon experience or with the Mana Magic spell, though.

- Visit Pandora, then do Water Palace cutscene.
- Beat Pandora Ruins.
--- Goblins will attack along the way, unfortunately, and without the Axe I can't avoid it. This is one of two primary price tags for getting the Midge Mallet early.
--- WCG against Wall Face is usually fine. It could go badly with bad luck.

- Cannon to Gaia's Navel and WCG Tropocallo.
--- This is like a 40 second time gain, and is the reward for delaying the Sprite.
--- The Sprite joins here.
- Beat Kilroy.
--- The Water Palace is now under Imperial attack... and Undine is available.

- Cannon to Water Palace and beat Tonpole and Jabberwocky.
--- Beating Jabberwocky with a damaging spell rather than with Slow Down will require some practice.

- Walk to Gaia's Navel and get the Midge Mallet.
--- Walking here rather than cannoning is the other main price tag for the early Midge Mallet.
--- Walking here either requires that I pressed the button the Eye Spy guarded when I rescued the Girl, or that I walk via Pandora.

- Beat Underground Palace.
- Cannon 2x to get to the Upperlands.

Differences between the current game state and what I usually do for 1p1c:
- The Sprite has a couple fewer bosses of experience, and no Gnome experience.
- The Sprite has the Midge Mallet available for 9 bosses that I fight magically.
--- I'm including Mech Rider 2 in this count. Metal Mantis might be a consideration, too, if I have the Mallet already.
- I don't need to visit the Dwarf Village for the Mallet again.
- The Girl, rather than the Sprite, is going to the be the second WCG-er, and it'll probably be with either the Glove, or with a duplicated Sword.
--- There may be some merit in picking up the Glove Orb in the Moogle Village and upgrading there; Stone Saber + Sleep Gloves = OHKO.

Last night I goofed around trying to see how far I could take the game without acquiring the Sprite.  There were some entertaining results, and I ultimately softlocked the game by causing Tropicallo to not appear in his boss chamber.  This happened because I talked to Watts while he was in the Upper Land forest.

Afterward, I started thinking about ways we could move things around to be actually productive.  The Tropicallo fight at present takes a very long time because we don't have the weapon charge glitch for that fight.  There's 40-45 seconds to be saved by WCG-ing that guy.  In the 1 controller category, I also have to go through the middle third of the run without the Midge Mallet because it requires a whole extra trip, walking, to get to the Dwarf Village when it is first available.

So, my basic idea is to bail on the Sprite event by upgrading the sword, buying the Dwarf Village item shop stuff, and eavesdropping on the Elder and Sprite, but then magic roping before returning to the main village.  This will cause Tropicallo to spawn the next time you enter the village.  This will require picking up the Girl and walking through walls to get to the Witch's Castle.

Also, if I do the out-of-order Pandora Ruins, then I can get the Midge Mallet on the same trip as the one where I go to the Underground Palace, which saves time in all of the magic boss fights in the middle third of the game and eliminates the Flammie trip to Gaia's Navel.

So, one possible route looks like:

- Talk to Trooper 2, then cannon to Gaia's Navel rather than completing Water Palace.

- Triplicate Walnuts.
- Go to Dwarf Village.
- Upgrade Sword, then shop, then watch show.
- Call rope rather than walking to the main village.

- Fight Werewolves to get Girl.
--- In the usual case, this fight is very hard solo, but doable.
--- With perfect RNG (both Werewolves dashing toward you immediately and no stab attack), this is no slower than with the Sprite in tow.
--- I'm pretty sure I have to tag the Axe-able statues.

- Cannon to the Water Palace, walk through walls, and kill Spikey.
--- Does the Rope work in the Haunted Woods?
--- The girl's only weapon at this point is the Glove, unfortunately.  I'll either have to go through extra effort to get the Spear or the Whip upgraded, or she'll be WCGing using a level 2 Glove (available after Tonpole).
----- Or, if I'm feeling really silly, I could equipment trash to un-equip the sword from the Boy and let the Girl use that.  Not sure how this interacts with gaining weapon experience or with the Mana Magic spell, though.

- Visit Pandora, then do Water Palace cutscene.
- Beat Pandora Ruins.
--- Goblins will attack along the way, unfortunately, and without the Axe I can't avoid it.  This is one of two primary price tags for getting the Midge Mallet early.
--- WCG against Wall Face is usually fine.  It could go badly with bad luck.

- Cannon to Gaia's Navel and WCG Tropocallo.
--- This is like a 40 second time gain, and is the reward for delaying the Sprite.
--- The Sprite joins here.
- Beat Kilroy.
--- The Water Palace is now under Imperial attack... and Undine is available.

- Cannon to Water Palace and beat Tonpole and Jabberwocky.
--- Beating Jabberwocky with a damaging spell rather than with Slow Down will require some practice.

- Walk to Gaia's Navel and get the Midge Mallet.
--- Walking here rather than cannoning is the other main price tag for the early Midge Mallet.
--- Walking here either requires that I pressed the button the Eye Spy guarded when I rescued the Girl, or that I walk via Pandora.

- Beat Underground Palace.
- Cannon 2x to get to the Upperlands.

Differences between the current game state and what I usually do for 1p1c:
- The Sprite has a couple fewer bosses of experience, and no Gnome experience.
- The Sprite has the Midge Mallet available for 9 bosses that I fight magically.
--- I'm including Mech Rider 2 in this count.  Metal Mantis might be a consideration, too, if I have the Mallet already.
- I don't need to visit the Dwarf Village for the Mallet again.
- The Girl, rather than the Sprite, is going to the be the second WCG-er, and it'll probably be with either the Glove, or with a duplicated Sword.
--- There may be some merit in picking up the Glove Orb in the Moogle Village and upgrading there; Stone Saber + Sleep Gloves = OHKO.

StingerPA

2014-12-16 10:31:58 am

I think this warrants a test run to see if you can even come within 10 minutes of the current route before continuing on with this line of thinking.

Yagamoth

2014-12-16 10:42:44 am

INTJ

Just tested the unequip weapon - It grants weapon experience for both characters. So this would be a valid strategy. Only downside is, that you'll have to switch to the axe twice during gameplay

I really like that idea of changing the early game route Smiley

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2014-12-16 01:27:08 pm

2014-12-16 01:10:33 pm

What's that gemma?

Tested Mana Magic with duplicated swords.

If the Boy has the "unequipped" sword, Mana Magic cannot be cast on him.

Once the Infinite Sword Glitch is performed, the Mana Sword can be traded to an ally, fully functional (provided that ally has a weapon equipped to give the Boy).

That ally can then "unequip" the Mana Sword, and the Boy can equip the Broad Sword, which can then have the infinite Mana Sword glitch performed on it again. Unfortunately, this will involve waiting through the Mana Sword cutscene. It's probably not worth the effort.

So, going with double swords would have to specifically be because I prefer the Broad Sword over some other weapon, not for Mana Sword shenanigans.

Yagamoth

2014-12-16 02:25:50 pm

INTJ

Well, it adds 1 agility, so the chance to hit is higher.. Slightly.