Secret of Evermore (SNES)

2013-06-23 10:09:33 am

www.youtube.com/user/HumanMYTH

Obtaining the chocobo egg via ceramic pots can take a horrific amount of time. Not sure if you should aim for that, or just buying it later on when u have more than enough moneh!
Greetings

Vultuz

Edit history:

Vultuz: 2013-06-26 08:33:16 am

Vultuz: 2013-06-26 08:32:25 am

Vultuz: 2013-06-26 08:31:30 am

Vultuz: 2013-06-26 08:27:24 am

Vultuz: 2013-06-26 08:27:07 am

Vultuz: 2013-06-26 08:25:46 am

Vultuz: 2013-06-26 08:25:36 am

Vultuz: 2013-06-26 08:25:20 am

2013-06-26 08:23:19 am

I made a run earlier today to get back for Any%
I Had a weird Glitch? durin the run. never saw something about this

http://www.twitch.tv/vultuz/c/2480302
I failed a Magmar fight and died during casting Hardballs and start a new run.
At the Thraxx fight in this attempt (Go to 4:55 in the Video) i killed him with 6 Hardballs and it reached Lvl 3.
So it seems the game saves your Stats if you die and dont reset the Console (or something like this).
Dont know if you can use this "glitch" for real runs, then Act 1 should be no Problem at all anymore.

There were more small things, the trigger was on Essence in the cave to get the Jaguar Ring and i Think i got more money, i had enough an i could buy 3 Stacks of Crystals at the Hardball Guy

bangagong

Edit history:

bangagong: 2013-06-26 11:14:51 am

2013-06-26 09:46:17 am

Wow! That's just crazy town. Assuming that that is how to do that "glitch", would that even be allowed in a run?
Pretty interesting find, would be very satisfying to start thraxx with lvl 9 hardball.

I did some testing on this, when I start a new game and get a game over and go back to the naming screen, I keep my money and alchemy levels. I tried it 3 times in one sitting up to thraxx, each time I did I kept any talons I had and hardball levels.

Kroutu

2013-06-26 02:16:14 pm

I guess that would count as some sort of NG+.

LovableLambchop

2013-06-26 02:28:42 pm

I did some runs where when I died I would just let it return to the menu screen without it resetting and I noticed I had like 200 talons when I went to get the Jaguar Ring and I thought nothing of it, boy did I miss that.

MetaSigma

2013-06-26 04:18:34 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

That would def be more of a NG+ thing or even RTA. If you could power off the game and turn it back on and do this then it'd be a legit SS like in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest.

Patashu

2013-06-26 05:19:04 pm

Could you go from a maxed out file, die, start a new game and keep the money and alchemy levels from that? If so, NG+ HYPE!

MetaSigma

2013-06-26 05:25:03 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

You could but the problem is this Patashu, it's not a TRUE NG+ because you're basically just resetting a ton. If you really are gonna be honest this isn't a legit category. The reason being is this...if you power off the system it won't work. Mystic Quest was basically a glitch in the SAVE FILE ITSELF EVEN AFTER POWER OFF. This would be different in that you have to keep the system ON in order to use it AND on top of that it's not like save/quitting, it's just basically quitting in a sense and on top of that you'd have to INCLUDE the time it took to GET there. Meaning it'd be more of RTA and in which case you'd still be slower because you'd be dying and wasting time that way.

Lemon

Edit history:

Lemon: 2013-06-26 07:41:37 pm

Lemon: 2013-06-26 07:41:19 pm

2013-06-26 07:40:16 pm

My opinion on NG+

TheAngryPanda

2013-07-02 06:59:18 pm

Speed > Safety

As nice as a NG+ would be to have as a category for this game, I don't think it's really something we can actually work with unless we have a shared save state file on emulator, which would essentially make it an emulator only thing which in turn wouldn't be considered a "real" category since it's non-replicable on the SNES. As for racing and the such, that might be a fun thing to do on the side for sure.

assassin17

Edit history:

assassin17: 2013-07-08 04:47:33 pm

2013-07-08 04:45:20 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from TheAngryPanda:

Aura -> [Defend -> Regrowth -> Shield -> (other spell) -> Aura again]

The aura initially cast needs to be a single cast, the rest should be cast together and the most common "other spell" is Atlas. If that's actually fixed then I'm impressed.

edit: to be honest, if that's actually fixed then I'd consider swapping to the NTSC version because PAL would be considerably far behind in times comparably otherwise.

it seems each character can properly handle only four timed statuses at once. looking at memory in a debugger, each of the first four spell castings start their own timer. then when you cast the fifth, it uses the first status' slot to initiate its own timer, meaning the first won't expire on its own. this is on NTSC.

besides Aura, i got this perming to work for Atlas, Speed, and Barrier. (haven't tried Defend yet.) sadly, it doesn't work for Energize; when it's the first casting in a series, the fifth alchemy/call bead usage will make Energize wear off (but the crazy shimmering palette lingers, as a consolation, or perhaps to taunt you). i dunno whether that was done intentionally for challenge reasons, or if it's just a matter of "luck" of some other of its variables getting overwritten.

also, i haven't been able to make it work using 5 detrimental timed statuses on monsters, as the fifth just seems to be ignored. (though i didn't try more than a couple different sequences.)

anyway, i'm convinced that if you want a spell to be permanent, you *don't* cast it again, because that allows its timer to be restarted, and then eventually to expire. in addition, casting them "together" doesn't seem to be necessary for the bug to work, though maybe you were just recommending that because it's a speedrun.

apologies if this is covered elsewhere (e.g. the XLSX doc, which i can't open with Office 2003). the post i'm quoting is the most detail i found on the perm-Aura bug.

[quote="TheAngryPanda"]Aura -> [Defend -> Regrowth -> Shield -> (other spell) -> Aura again]

The aura initially cast needs to be a single cast, the rest should be cast together and the most common "other spell" is Atlas. If that's actually fixed then I'm impressed.

edit: to be honest, if that's actually fixed then I'd consider swapping to the NTSC version because PAL would be considerably far behind in times comparably otherwise. [/quote]

it seems each character can properly handle only four timed statuses at once.  looking at memory in a debugger, each of the first four spell castings start their own timer.  then when you cast the fifth, it uses the first status' slot to initiate its own timer, meaning the first won't expire on its own.  this is on NTSC.

besides Aura, i got this perming to work for Atlas, Speed, and Barrier.  (haven't tried Defend yet.)  sadly, it doesn't work for Energize; when it's the first casting in a series, the fifth alchemy/call bead usage will make Energize wear off (but the crazy shimmering palette lingers, as a consolation, or perhaps to taunt you).  i dunno whether that was done intentionally for challenge reasons, or if it's just a matter of "luck" of some other of its variables getting overwritten.

also, i haven't been able to make it work using 5 detrimental timed statuses on monsters, as the fifth just seems to be ignored.  (though i didn't try more than a couple different sequences.)

anyway, i'm convinced that if you want a spell to be permanent, you *don't* cast it again, because that allows its timer to be restarted, and then eventually to expire.  in addition, casting them "together" doesn't seem to be necessary for the bug to work, though maybe you were just recommending that because it's a speedrun.

apologies if this is covered elsewhere (e.g. the XLSX doc, which i can't open with Office 2003).  the post i'm quoting is the most detail i found on the perm-Aura bug.

TheAngryPanda

2013-07-08 05:10:52 pm

Speed > Safety

You're correct in how it works as far as I know. Casting Aura again is definitely not a requirement. The post is old/outdated and I'm sure it's covered elsewhere but I'm not really sure. Casting them together is just to speed things up, yes. Seems I missed that post when I comb through outdated data... will fix that asap. Also, sorry you can't open the xlsx doc, perhaps try to use one of the pdf's to locate what you're looking for, or were you hoping to play around with the money calculations/ingredient data?

Nitrodon/Meta/Lemon/Asfar can probably explain how the perm aura stuff works a lot better than I can, the description above is the one I was given by another person since I personally rarely, if ever, utilized the trick when it was found.

Nitrodon

2013-07-09 05:18:35 am

About the perma-status glitch:

You're right that recasting Aura isn't part of it. The sequence I suggested to Meta back then was Speed -> Aura -> [three other spells] -> Speed, which gives perma-Aura as well as a decent permanent speed boost.

Some statuses, such as Energize and Poison, have their effect handled by the same routine that handles their timer. These statuses cannot be made permanent in any reasonable sense.

assassin17

2013-07-09 12:10:07 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

ah, nice.

as for that whole crazy bug with the Pixie Dust, Poison, and the underflows.. it looks like the game is trying to undo the timed status boosts upon death. so it's going to subtract the "boost provided by status" from the (cumulative) "amount a statistic is boosted" variable. but for the former, it dumbly just uses the boost that was in the 1st of 4 timed status slots for a character. if that status' boost was zero (e.g. Pixie Dust/Regenerate), 0 is subtracted from all our statistic boosts, so we keep them.

if the boost from that status was positive, it gets subtracted from all our statistic boosts, and possibly underflows them. Poison doesn't have a stat boost, so what it instead apparently keeps in that variable is the frames elapsed since our last poison damage interval. that's bound to be a large, positive value, so it'll underflow pretty much everything (unless we get killed RIGHT after a poison interval).

--------

a few days ago, i figured out how to fix the bug of stat boosts not being retained through a save/reload. this one's a little more complicated, but i think i've figured out a fix for it too.

--------

finally, while looking at the code, i discovered another bug. most timed statuses have their timers assigned a value of 1 on the first tick, then count upwards each frame until hitting a limit. however, due to wrongly ordered code, Speed has its timer start at a value equal to the Dog's Defense + 1. that amounts to being cheated out of the status for several seconds.

ah, nice.

as for that whole crazy bug with the Pixie Dust, Poison, and the underflows..  it looks like the game is trying to undo the timed status boosts upon death.  so it's going to subtract the "boost provided by status" from the (cumulative) "amount a statistic is boosted" variable.  but for the former, it dumbly just uses the boost that was in the 1st of 4 timed status slots for a character.  if that status' boost was zero (e.g. Pixie Dust/Regenerate), 0 is subtracted from all our statistic boosts, so we keep them.

if the boost from that status was positive, it gets subtracted from all our statistic boosts, and possibly underflows them.  Poison doesn't have a stat boost, so what it instead apparently keeps in that variable is the frames elapsed since our last poison damage interval.  that's bound to be a large, positive value, so it'll underflow pretty much everything (unless we get killed RIGHT after a poison interval).

--------

a few days ago, i figured out how to fix the bug of stat boosts not being retained through a save/reload.  this one's a little more complicated, but i think i've figured out a fix for it too.

--------

finally, while looking at the code, i discovered another bug.  most timed statuses have their timers assigned a value of 1 on the first tick, then count upwards each frame until hitting a limit.  however, due to wrongly ordered code, Speed has its timer start at a value equal to the Dog's Defense + 1.  that amounts to being cheated out of the status for several seconds.

TheAngryPanda

2013-07-09 12:58:19 pm

Speed > Safety

That's some pretty nice information. Pretty much all I have to say about this right now but it's going to get me thinking about possible changes in certain places for 100% and perhaps even any%, but I doubt it. Anywho, thank you. Smiley

MetaSigma

2013-07-09 04:03:06 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Ironically assassin that's kinda what I figured regarding how the underflow works (regarding the frames and such) Just from my own countless mistakes and mishaps basically you've just fleshed out much more in depth what I already had a feeling was, but I do appreciate it very much!

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-07-10 01:53:31 am

TheAngryPanda: 2013-07-09 06:56:16 pm

2013-07-09 06:53:36 pm

Speed > Safety

Quote from MetaSigma:

...basically you've just fleshed out much more in depth what I already had a feeling was, but I do appreciate it very much!...

Actual information vs "a feeling" is VASTLY different, nobody was confirming exactly how this trick worked or why it worked, there was only assumption and theory. Knowing how this works has actually provided an explanation of why Speed acts as it does, which could also lead to how we could make the underflow appropriately put us at either just under/over the limitation needed for 100% accuracy. So all in all, I'd say that if my theory, which is based on the ACTUAL information just provided, turns out working then we could potentially never miss in 100%, which would speed that up drastically. The other side of this coin is any% and how, or rather what, we can do to provide an easier method of obtaining invincibility. I'm not sure if the post was meant to or not, but it came off as slightly arrogant/dismissive.

Edit: I'm not the one that pointed out the "tone" in the quoted text so it isn't "just me." I'll leave it at that.

[quote="MetaSigma"]...basically you've just fleshed out much more in depth what I already had a feeling was, but I do appreciate it very much!...[/quote]

Actual information vs "a feeling" is VASTLY different, nobody was confirming exactly how this trick worked or why it worked, there was only assumption and theory. Knowing how this works has actually provided an explanation of why Speed acts as it does, which could also lead to how we could make the underflow appropriately put us at either just under/over the limitation needed for 100% accuracy. So all in all, I'd say that if my theory, which is based on the ACTUAL information just provided, turns out working then we could potentially never miss in 100%, which would speed that up drastically. The other side of this coin is any% and how, or rather what, we can do to provide an easier method of obtaining invincibility. I'm not sure if the post was meant to or not, but it came off as slightly arrogant/dismissive.

Edit: I'm not the one that pointed out the "tone" in the quoted text so it isn't "just me." I'll leave it at that.

MetaSigma

2013-07-09 07:33:43 pm

Evermore Extrodinare ᕦ(° Д°)ᕤ

Quote from TheAngryPanda:

I'm not sure if the post was meant to or not, but it came off as slightly arrogant/dismissive.

or you just took it as such when it in no way even came across like that. None the less I can't wait to see 100% times drop with this new information (Regarding how speed works as I had no clue about THAT, and was only speaking on the Atlas underflow ITSELF.)

Patashu

2013-07-09 07:37:36 pm

It's cool to find out the inner mechanics of how glitches work, it's why stuff like wrong warp and reverse bottle adventure are so fascinating, they give you a peek into the game's memory and code Smiley

Interested in what route improvements will be made

TheAngryPanda

2013-07-10 01:49:14 am

Speed > Safety

Likely not any improvements for a while since I'm busy with other stuff, but I'm sure people who are open-minded and not dancing around safe strats will find something pretty neat with it. Any% is a different story, the idea I have for that will require about 10-15 runs completed to get a solid average for comparisons, assuming the idea I have even works.

Nitrodon

Edit history:

Nitrodon: 2013-07-11 04:18:31 pm

2013-07-11 04:17:27 pm

When determining whether an attack will hit, the game code subtracts 30% from accuracy under some condition, and afterward (regardless of whether accuracy was reduced) checks whether accuracy is negative. As a result, underflowing accuracy would be impossible.

TheAngryPanda

2013-07-11 05:24:25 pm

Speed > Safety

Ah, well then nvm regarding speed. Definitely saved me the trouble of testing stuff, lol.

bangagong

Edit history:

bangagong: 2013-07-11 07:35:15 pm

2013-07-11 07:21:53 pm

So I decided to wait until after the SDA Roundtable discussion to bring this up since some of the topics brought up were relevant.
I couldn't help but notice that the SoE run hosted here is a whopping 2:46:27, needless to say it's a little outdated. And it has no presence at all on the strategy page.

One of the topics last night was about making the KB more current, as well as implementing new systems to make editing and adding game pages more user friendly. User friendly or not, it still takes a user to put that content there, and no one is more qualified to do that than runners in this thread.

So I was wondering if anyone had/has any plans to update either of these, i know SGDQ is only 2 weeks away and a lot of people are busy with that, also not sure what/when changes are happening to KB layout and such. I am capable and willing to start a page in the KB as well as try to submit a run at some point, but being that almost everyone here has a faster time than me, and I haven't been here very long, I thought I should probably bring it up with the pros first.

Edit: To be specific, for the KB I want to outline all of the core mechanics and glitches, things like multi-casting, menu cancelling, leashing, underflow glitching, and then a general rundown of the current any% route and where/how to skip certain scenes.

So I decided to wait until after the SDA Roundtable discussion to bring this up since some of the topics brought up were relevant.
I couldn't help but notice that the SoE run hosted here is a whopping 2:46:27, needless to say it's a little outdated.  And it has no presence at all on the strategy page.

One of the topics last night was about making the KB more current, as well as implementing new systems to make editing and adding game pages more user friendly.  User friendly or not, it still takes a user to put that content there, and no one is more qualified to do that than runners in this thread.

So I was wondering if anyone had/has any plans to update either of these, i know SGDQ is only 2 weeks away and a lot of people are busy with that, also not sure what/when changes are happening to KB layout and such.  I am capable and willing to start a page in the KB as well as try to submit a run at some point, but being that almost everyone here has a faster time than me, and I haven't been here very long, I thought I should probably bring it up with the pros first.

Edit: To be specific, for the KB I want to outline all of the core mechanics and glitches, things like multi-casting, menu cancelling, leashing, underflow glitching, and then a general rundown of the current any% route and where/how to skip certain scenes.

TheAngryPanda

Edit history:

TheAngryPanda: 2013-07-11 08:28:22 pm

2013-07-11 08:27:58 pm

Speed > Safety

I'd be up for it if I knew what it was, how to edit it, etc... But anyone that's told me to edit it has never followed up on my questions. Another thing though is that most of the tricks are in my guide as well as how to do them (generally) and what the purpose is behind them. You could pull from this source to copy it into the KB if you wanted to, I obviously wouldn't care/mind.

As for the submitting a run thing, the reason I haven't done it personally is because I'm not happy with my times that I've gotten lately on top of the fact that for me to get a run I'm absolutely happy with, it's got a 0.00015% chance of happening. That's honestly not that bad considering other games have much more ridiculous odds of everything "going right," but the only place I can record is at my friend's house which I can only go to when they're around, which isn't very often nowadays. So that's why I haven't submitted a run... I do have one I could submit, but it's got some seriously fugly mistakes in it that I'm not comfortable stapling my name to on an actual submission and if I saw them in a run of this I'd not accept it instantly because they're basically inexcusable.

As for your time being faster/slower, that doesn't really matter. What matters is if you're improving. So long as you continue improving (and some of us have definitely stopped improving...) you will eventually overtake the people here, especially myself since I'm slowly distancing myself from this game now.

Anyways, if you'd like help with it, I certainly don't mind just point me in the right direction with instructions on how to do stuff in a PM on here (not in this thread).

I'd be up for it if I knew what it was, how to edit it, etc... But anyone that's told me to edit it has never followed up on my questions. Another thing though is that most of the tricks are in my guide as well as how to do them (generally) and what the purpose is behind them. You could pull from this source to copy it into the KB if you wanted to, I obviously wouldn't care/mind.

As for the submitting a run thing, the reason I haven't done it personally is because I'm not happy with my times that I've gotten lately on top of the fact that for me to get a run I'm absolutely happy with, it's got a 0.00015% chance of happening. That's honestly not that bad considering other games have much more ridiculous odds of everything "going right," but the only place I can record is at my friend's house which I can only go to when they're around, which isn't very often nowadays. So that's why I haven't submitted a run... I do have one I could submit, but it's got some seriously fugly mistakes in it that I'm not comfortable stapling my name to on an actual submission and if I saw them in a run of this I'd not accept it instantly because they're basically inexcusable.

As for your time being faster/slower, that doesn't really matter. What matters is if you're improving. So long as you continue improving (and some of us have definitely stopped improving...) you will eventually overtake the people here, especially myself since I'm slowly distancing myself from this game now.

Anyways, if you'd like help with it, I certainly don't mind just point me in the right direction with instructions on how to do stuff in a PM on here (not in this thread).

bangagong

2013-07-12 12:42:59 am

I'm glad you're ok with putting your guides in the KB, I learned almost everything I know from them. I also have no idea how to add games to the list or do any editing yet, I don't plan on doing anything at least until SGDQ is done, and then I'll probably wait for them to change the posting/editing system if that hasn't happened yet. And I still have a few minutes to shave off of my run before I would consider submitting one, and I still have a little to learn about actually creating a quality video, I've only streamed a few times and haven't tried recording yet, so I've got some work/practice to do in the meantime.