My feelings on The Demon Rush
Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/Rygar.html
Kristian Emanuelsen's NTSC and PAL runs
Verifier Responses
Third verifier PAL run:
Same verifier, NTSC:
Decision: Accept and Reject
Reason: The NTSC run is an improvement to a run that is already good, but the PAL run has some bad leveling and doesn't look good compared side to side with the NTSC run.
The PAL run is available upon request until July 1st, PM me.
Kristian Emanuelsen's NTSC and PAL runs
Verifier Responses
Quote:
I timed NTSC Rygar at 25 minutes even (691 to 90577), PAL Rygar at 29:40 (573 to 89593).
NTSC run is smoother than last time and I don't know if Emptyeye is still reeling from the previous one.
PAL run had a mistake during the grind phase in Dorago's and he pulled the same mistake that Emptyeye did in his inaugural run in Lapis. I'm not going to gripe about the Ligar battle given that the PAL version is harder (lower stat caps)
Verdict: Accept and Accept because one is an improvement and the other is a new category (Euro version).
NTSC run is smoother than last time and I don't know if Emptyeye is still reeling from the previous one.
PAL run had a mistake during the grind phase in Dorago's and he pulled the same mistake that Emptyeye did in his inaugural run in Lapis. I'm not going to gripe about the Ligar battle given that the PAL version is harder (lower stat caps)
Verdict: Accept and Accept because one is an improvement and the other is a new category (Euro version).
Quote:
No cheating, deaths, or technical problems in either run, except for the fact that the NTSC version had an extra 4 minutes of what looks like the start of another attempt in the -v copy, which I already mentioned to you in my IRC message.
NTSC VERSION
It's really hard to judge some of the differences because a fair amount of how much time is needed spent building up is reliant on semi-random enemy spawns. Overall the run feels a bit tighter, and finishing the leveling up segment faster helps a fair amount.
- spike of lag at 28 sec (from swinging weapon?)
- extra jump before reaching the overworld to avoid random enemy, probably should have reset since it was so early
+ manages to gain lead in green tower area due to slightly different enemy spawns and different kill pattern
+ forest area is done faster overall (about 10 seconds ahead total by the time the boss dies)
+ path to the cavern faster by about three seconds
+ more daring around the fireballs, cavern is overall faster
+ spider boss is done better, boss is dead in the new one before the old one even reaches the room
= oh god here comes the boring part, build up seems a bit more practiced but this is one of those things you'd need a degree in calculus to figure out the best time to stop (not to mention a robotic player), so I'm just going to assume that trial and error is the way to go here--he kills the next boss about a minute earlier than the old run
- reaching and killing the tower boss is a few seconds slower here, a couple noticeable mistakes but not sure that would account for the whole difference, so it's probably little minor things on the way there, and it's a three-minute trip so who knows...
= watching them side by side, they both pick up a health potion at the same time, this amused me more than it should have
- whoops, enemy knocked him into a doorway, costing a few seconds
+ still manages to gain a couple seconds back on the way to the fifth boss
= roughly equal on the way to the sky castle, not counting the wasted menu time the old run had, which I chalk up to nerves
+ gains a couple more seconds back in the sky castle, leading a final gain of 1:02, for a total time of 24:59, by my count
PAL VERSION
In a complete break from tradition, it seems that the PAL version actually runs FASTER than the NTSC version. I tried slowing the NTSC down 5/6 and it fell behind immediately. Then I ran them at the same speed, and NTSC STILL fell behind by about a second before he was even out of the first area. So I'm going to throw away a direct time comparison and just try to judge it on its own merits. It feels like the jumps might be a bit floatier but I can't say for sure unless I tested it myself. Also, the sound is surprisingly not terrible, just stepped down a few halftones.
The buildup strategy is quite different for reasons I believe were mentioned in both the comments and Mike's message to verifiers, so maybe that's why he kills some enemies he wouldn't normally. The beginning is pretty good, only real delays are from killing enemies that were in his way and/or for buildup purposes. Just before he reaches the spider cavern he backtracks for a couple of seconds to avoid an enemy, which made me raise an eyebrow and probably wasn't necessary. Then he wastes a few more seconds going for a health powerup from the purple unicorn wyvern things and feels a bit too cautious around the fireballs. Spider boss goes fine, though I'm wondering if that missed shot at the start could have started the cycle. On the way to the gray area of doom he pauses the menu for absolutely no reason (checking on his tone?). The sound here is just as annoying as the NTSC version... whoa...
What the FUCK do you call that mess at the start of the buildup sequence? It's one thing to get struck by one of the enemies and lose your rhythm, but why do you chase that last one into the walls like that? Total waste of time. If you were to make a case for rejection that would be it right there.
He stops earlier here than in the NTSC version for reasons already stated. Every kill from here on out is unfortunately noticably slower, which makes the comparison more difficult. What a strange thing to change for a different version. The tower boss feels more cautious than necessary, and he once again dodges an enemy he probably could have killed instead, and then gets hit by the next one anyway, despite being a good blockwidth away. Weird hitbox.
Was it really necessary to take a sidetrip and 'rest'? I know you were on low health, but on the other hand if you'd made fewer mistakes the time you spend on the sidetrack could have been avoided.
...wrong way.
He grabs a life potion for the final boss, which is somewhat understandable considering how much more difficult he is on the PAL version. The final boss fight looks way more cautious than the NTSC version, and I'm wondering if it might be better to be a bit more reckless and save the stars for another life recovery instead of using them on assail. I seem to recall the first time I beat this guy I just bounced on his head while attacking as fast as I could, using my two recovery options and turning it into a battle of attrition. Maybe that's not viable given the low tone cap, but I'm wondering if he tried it or not.
Timed the run at 29:52.
Verdict: As far as the NTSC version goes, it's a minute faster using the same overall strategy. Easy accept. For the PAL version, I really feel like the run is just too cautious and that mistake at the start of the buildup sequence just completely pulled me out of the viewing groove. Standing by itself I don't want to reject it because MOST of the run is pretty well done, but watching it right after the NTSC version it just feels so subpar so I'm going to say it needs a redo.
NTSC VERSION
It's really hard to judge some of the differences because a fair amount of how much time is needed spent building up is reliant on semi-random enemy spawns. Overall the run feels a bit tighter, and finishing the leveling up segment faster helps a fair amount.
- spike of lag at 28 sec (from swinging weapon?)
- extra jump before reaching the overworld to avoid random enemy, probably should have reset since it was so early
+ manages to gain lead in green tower area due to slightly different enemy spawns and different kill pattern
+ forest area is done faster overall (about 10 seconds ahead total by the time the boss dies)
+ path to the cavern faster by about three seconds
+ more daring around the fireballs, cavern is overall faster
+ spider boss is done better, boss is dead in the new one before the old one even reaches the room
= oh god here comes the boring part, build up seems a bit more practiced but this is one of those things you'd need a degree in calculus to figure out the best time to stop (not to mention a robotic player), so I'm just going to assume that trial and error is the way to go here--he kills the next boss about a minute earlier than the old run
- reaching and killing the tower boss is a few seconds slower here, a couple noticeable mistakes but not sure that would account for the whole difference, so it's probably little minor things on the way there, and it's a three-minute trip so who knows...
= watching them side by side, they both pick up a health potion at the same time, this amused me more than it should have
- whoops, enemy knocked him into a doorway, costing a few seconds
+ still manages to gain a couple seconds back on the way to the fifth boss
= roughly equal on the way to the sky castle, not counting the wasted menu time the old run had, which I chalk up to nerves
+ gains a couple more seconds back in the sky castle, leading a final gain of 1:02, for a total time of 24:59, by my count
PAL VERSION
In a complete break from tradition, it seems that the PAL version actually runs FASTER than the NTSC version. I tried slowing the NTSC down 5/6 and it fell behind immediately. Then I ran them at the same speed, and NTSC STILL fell behind by about a second before he was even out of the first area. So I'm going to throw away a direct time comparison and just try to judge it on its own merits. It feels like the jumps might be a bit floatier but I can't say for sure unless I tested it myself. Also, the sound is surprisingly not terrible, just stepped down a few halftones.
The buildup strategy is quite different for reasons I believe were mentioned in both the comments and Mike's message to verifiers, so maybe that's why he kills some enemies he wouldn't normally. The beginning is pretty good, only real delays are from killing enemies that were in his way and/or for buildup purposes. Just before he reaches the spider cavern he backtracks for a couple of seconds to avoid an enemy, which made me raise an eyebrow and probably wasn't necessary. Then he wastes a few more seconds going for a health powerup from the purple unicorn wyvern things and feels a bit too cautious around the fireballs. Spider boss goes fine, though I'm wondering if that missed shot at the start could have started the cycle. On the way to the gray area of doom he pauses the menu for absolutely no reason (checking on his tone?). The sound here is just as annoying as the NTSC version... whoa...
What the FUCK do you call that mess at the start of the buildup sequence? It's one thing to get struck by one of the enemies and lose your rhythm, but why do you chase that last one into the walls like that? Total waste of time. If you were to make a case for rejection that would be it right there.
He stops earlier here than in the NTSC version for reasons already stated. Every kill from here on out is unfortunately noticably slower, which makes the comparison more difficult. What a strange thing to change for a different version. The tower boss feels more cautious than necessary, and he once again dodges an enemy he probably could have killed instead, and then gets hit by the next one anyway, despite being a good blockwidth away. Weird hitbox.
Was it really necessary to take a sidetrip and 'rest'? I know you were on low health, but on the other hand if you'd made fewer mistakes the time you spend on the sidetrack could have been avoided.
...wrong way.
He grabs a life potion for the final boss, which is somewhat understandable considering how much more difficult he is on the PAL version. The final boss fight looks way more cautious than the NTSC version, and I'm wondering if it might be better to be a bit more reckless and save the stars for another life recovery instead of using them on assail. I seem to recall the first time I beat this guy I just bounced on his head while attacking as fast as I could, using my two recovery options and turning it into a battle of attrition. Maybe that's not viable given the low tone cap, but I'm wondering if he tried it or not.
Timed the run at 29:52.
Verdict: As far as the NTSC version goes, it's a minute faster using the same overall strategy. Easy accept. For the PAL version, I really feel like the run is just too cautious and that mistake at the start of the buildup sequence just completely pulled me out of the viewing groove. Standing by itself I don't want to reject it because MOST of the run is pretty well done, but watching it right after the NTSC version it just feels so subpar so I'm going to say it needs a redo.
Third verifier PAL run:
Quote:
Verifier: I am indeed online. The brief version: The PAL run is a weak accept....I'll have to, um, legally emulate (<_<-) that version to see if my objections to it still hold water. Haven't gotten around to watching the NTSC one yet, because I just now successfuly downloaded it.
me: also about the pal version
me: I think the other two verifiers rejected
me: I don't know how much research they did into the pal version though
Verifier: Yeah, I think in a sentence, my thoughts are closest to the strict verifier's thought on my Chuck Rock run: "Accept, but I won't argue if others vote reject."
Verifier: Also; Rygar jumps higher in the PAL version. Not sure why, but you can also see this phenomenon in Shadow Warriors, where Ryu's jumping is closer to NTSC Ninja Gaiden III. The main thing it does is let you jump rivers you'd normally pulley over, but it takes frame-perfect precision.
me: also about the pal version
me: I think the other two verifiers rejected
me: I don't know how much research they did into the pal version though
Verifier: Yeah, I think in a sentence, my thoughts are closest to the strict verifier's thought on my Chuck Rock run: "Accept, but I won't argue if others vote reject."
Verifier: Also; Rygar jumps higher in the PAL version. Not sure why, but you can also see this phenomenon in Shadow Warriors, where Ryu's jumping is closer to NTSC Ninja Gaiden III. The main thing it does is let you jump rivers you'd normally pulley over, but it takes frame-perfect precision.
Same verifier, NTSC:
Quote:
[17:21] mikwuyma: hello
[17:21] mikwuyma: I am going to bug you about rygar again
[17:21] CATS the Impaler: Finally getting around to watching the NTSC version as we speak. If I ever bust on you for failing to promptly get to the MAGFest Awards Ceremony on time again, just say the words "Rygar verification" and I'll shut up. ;-)
[17:22] mikwuyma: LOL
[17:24] mikwuyma: I could also mention zelda II from ages ago
[17:24] mikwuyma: why do I let you verify again?
[17:24] CATS the Impaler: Oh, you mean the one I verified AFTER it was already on the site?
[17:24] mikwuyma: yes
[17:24] mikwuyma: because you took that long
[17:25] CATS the Impaler: ALSO: I think it's because you know I've played the games before. Also also, because, rarely, I do actually verify them in a prompt manner (In my defense, I didn't log into my forum account for like a month this time around, which is most, though not all, of why it's taken so long).
[17:29] CATS the Impaler: Okay, I somehow had my speeds mixed up--the Eruga fight on the PAL version wasn't as bad as I thought (Though it still wasn't great).
[17:34] CATS the Impaler: ...once day, he will master the art of "Don't get hit while bouncing Sagila back and forth." Though I don't think this was any worse than the previous fight, honestly.
[17:41] mikwuyma: well your decision to reject the pal run still stands right?
[17:42] CATS the Impaler: Technically, I think my verdict was "Weak accept, but I won't argue with a rejection if others voted that way." But yes, the decision stands. I mean, one hand, it was actually faster than my old NTSC run, but on the other, while impressive, there were so many little things I didn't like that I could go either way on it.
[17:46] CATS the Impaler: (More specifically on the PAL run, amongst other things, he had the exact same brain fart I did in the beginning of Lapis proper with going down instead of up, and I felt like he could've been more aggressive on Ligar pre-potion use.)
[17:53] CATS the Impaler: So, I'm guessing the last 8 minutes or so of the NTSC video won't be in the final copy (Should it be accepted)? If you're curious, it looks like the start of another attempt where he dies just before the forest.
[17:53] mikwuyma: yeah it won't be included
[17:53] mikwuyma: the runner just didn't give nate proper time cuts
[17:54] CATS the Impaler: Ah, that makes sense. My verdict on the NTSC run boils down to "Accept as improvement"..let me grab the comments quick and see if he addresses any of the concerns I had at all.
[17:54] mikwuyma: his comments were pretty short IIRC
[17:55] CATS the Impaler: Yep, okay. Concerns: I'm still wondering if he levels for longer than he really should, especially since it seemed like he finally hit the groove with consistently getting four and five enemies to spawn, then got out of it after awhile.
[17:57] CATS the Impaler: He also kills a bunch of enemies in Lapis that I feel he didn't need to..maybe he was hoping for a small potion...it sure wasn't for Mind Points, since he passes up three after an enemy dies. And finally, I'm wondering why he was dancing around on the Ligar fight...yeah, he was low on health, but was he that unconfident in his ability to get ONE hit in after attack and assail ran out?
[17:57] CATS the Impaler: But again, minor things in what's an improvement overall.
[17:57] mikwuyma: are you going to try and improve the run?
[17:58] CATS the Impaler: ALSO: HELLO VERIFICATION BOARD MY NAME IS EMPTYEYE AND I EPIC FAIL IN QUICKLY VERIFYING RUNS.
[17:58] CATS the Impaler: And at some point, maybe. I'm working on some non=speedrun-related stuff at the moment (duh), though.
[17:58] mikwuyma: might as well post your aim name while I'm at it
[17:21] mikwuyma: I am going to bug you about rygar again
[17:21] CATS the Impaler: Finally getting around to watching the NTSC version as we speak. If I ever bust on you for failing to promptly get to the MAGFest Awards Ceremony on time again, just say the words "Rygar verification" and I'll shut up. ;-)
[17:22] mikwuyma: LOL
[17:24] mikwuyma: I could also mention zelda II from ages ago
[17:24] mikwuyma: why do I let you verify again?
[17:24] CATS the Impaler: Oh, you mean the one I verified AFTER it was already on the site?
[17:24] mikwuyma: yes
[17:24] mikwuyma: because you took that long
[17:25] CATS the Impaler: ALSO: I think it's because you know I've played the games before. Also also, because, rarely, I do actually verify them in a prompt manner (In my defense, I didn't log into my forum account for like a month this time around, which is most, though not all, of why it's taken so long).
[17:29] CATS the Impaler: Okay, I somehow had my speeds mixed up--the Eruga fight on the PAL version wasn't as bad as I thought (Though it still wasn't great).
[17:34] CATS the Impaler: ...once day, he will master the art of "Don't get hit while bouncing Sagila back and forth." Though I don't think this was any worse than the previous fight, honestly.
[17:41] mikwuyma: well your decision to reject the pal run still stands right?
[17:42] CATS the Impaler: Technically, I think my verdict was "Weak accept, but I won't argue with a rejection if others voted that way." But yes, the decision stands. I mean, one hand, it was actually faster than my old NTSC run, but on the other, while impressive, there were so many little things I didn't like that I could go either way on it.
[17:46] CATS the Impaler: (More specifically on the PAL run, amongst other things, he had the exact same brain fart I did in the beginning of Lapis proper with going down instead of up, and I felt like he could've been more aggressive on Ligar pre-potion use.)
[17:53] CATS the Impaler: So, I'm guessing the last 8 minutes or so of the NTSC video won't be in the final copy (Should it be accepted)? If you're curious, it looks like the start of another attempt where he dies just before the forest.
[17:53] mikwuyma: yeah it won't be included
[17:53] mikwuyma: the runner just didn't give nate proper time cuts
[17:54] CATS the Impaler: Ah, that makes sense. My verdict on the NTSC run boils down to "Accept as improvement"..let me grab the comments quick and see if he addresses any of the concerns I had at all.
[17:54] mikwuyma: his comments were pretty short IIRC
[17:55] CATS the Impaler: Yep, okay. Concerns: I'm still wondering if he levels for longer than he really should, especially since it seemed like he finally hit the groove with consistently getting four and five enemies to spawn, then got out of it after awhile.
[17:57] CATS the Impaler: He also kills a bunch of enemies in Lapis that I feel he didn't need to..maybe he was hoping for a small potion...it sure wasn't for Mind Points, since he passes up three after an enemy dies. And finally, I'm wondering why he was dancing around on the Ligar fight...yeah, he was low on health, but was he that unconfident in his ability to get ONE hit in after attack and assail ran out?
[17:57] CATS the Impaler: But again, minor things in what's an improvement overall.
[17:57] mikwuyma: are you going to try and improve the run?
[17:58] CATS the Impaler: ALSO: HELLO VERIFICATION BOARD MY NAME IS EMPTYEYE AND I EPIC FAIL IN QUICKLY VERIFYING RUNS.
[17:58] CATS the Impaler: And at some point, maybe. I'm working on some non=speedrun-related stuff at the moment (duh), though.
[17:58] mikwuyma: might as well post your aim name while I'm at it
Decision: Accept and Reject
Reason: The NTSC run is an improvement to a run that is already good, but the PAL run has some bad leveling and doesn't look good compared side to side with the NTSC run.
The PAL run is available upon request until July 1st, PM me.
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