Running a PAL NES game in 60hz

2009-09-04 11:15:08 am

I own an NTSC NES which I have just had modded to disable the region lockout chip so that all PAL games will play on it. All games will run in 60hz on this system whether they are PAL or NTSC since the console itself is NTSC format.

So, my first question is, would it be okay to submit a run on a PAL NES game in 60hz as though it were an NTSC cartridge (providing the game was identical in both regions)?

And secondly, what would happen if the PAL version of a game differed slightly to the NTSC version? Obviously it wouldn't be fair to obsolete a PAL 50hz run since that would be ridiculous, but would it still have a place on SDA?

I can't think of any NES games that have major PAL/NTSC differences at the moment but I'm sure there are some. What about a game like Contra for example? AFAIK the only region differences are that the PAL version is called Probotector and the playable characters are robots instead of humans. Just as a theoretic example, if I were to beat the Contra speedrun playing on Probotector in 60hz, would this be allowed?

I think it's a pretty unusual situation and I'm interested in what you guys think.

Thread title:

I own an NTSC NES which I have just had modded to disable the region lockout chip so that all PAL games will play on it. All games will run in 60hz on this system whether they are PAL or NTSC since the console itself is NTSC format.

So, my first question is, would it be okay to submit a run on a PAL NES game in 60hz as though it were an NTSC cartridge (providing the game was identical in both regions)?

And secondly, what would happen if the PAL version of a game differed slightly to the NTSC version? Obviously it wouldn't be fair to obsolete a PAL 50hz run since that would be ridiculous, but would it still have a place on SDA?

I can't think of any NES games that have major PAL/NTSC differences at the moment but I'm sure there are some. What about a game like Contra for example? AFAIK the only region differences are that the PAL version is called Probotector and the playable characters are robots instead of humans. Just as a theoretic example, if I were to beat the Contra speedrun playing on Probotector in 60hz, would this be allowed?

I think it's a pretty unusual situation and I'm interested in what you guys think.

nate

2009-09-05 12:10:42 pm

it is an unusual situation. there would have be no differences between the pal game played on ntsc hardware and the ntsc game played on ntsc hardware for us to accept it in the ntsc category. having said that it may be difficult to be sure whether there are differences ... the situation is really a mess because sometimes more minor changes were made to the pal releases. btw, if you play a pal game where they sped up the music but left everything else the same, does the music sound like chipmunks on your console? Smiley

dannnnn

2009-09-05 01:47:08 pm

Quote from nate:

btw, if you play a pal game where they sped up the music but left everything else the same, does the music sound like chipmunks on your console? Smiley

I haven't had the console back yet to test it myself but the guy who repaired/modded it sent me this the other day: done your NES – that plays all games fine now, and plays PAL games (at 60Hz – Simpsons theme sounded funny as it was so fast!), so I'm guessing it does Cheesy

Kabuto

2009-09-07 02:51:37 am

I guess there won't be major playability problems since most NES PAL games were originally designed for NTSC and thus aren't confused by having less time for their calculations every frame. (On other systems (C64 for instance) where many games were designed only or primarily for PAL there are however lots of compatibility problems when running PAL games on NTSC systems).

However, probably the only situation where fair competition against existing runs is where the gameplay of the PAL version wasn't altered at all compared to the NTSC version so by putting the PAL game into an NTSC NES you basically get the NTSC version.

Otherwise, if the developers compensated for PAL games having less frames per second, you get a game version that never existed naturally. Also, if you did a run, compensating for the timing differences may be difficult because many games lag if there's too much on screen at once, making comparisons difficult; NTSC games generally lag more than PAL games and adjusted PAL games on NTSC might lag even more than native NTSC games due to the game having to compute more due to faster gameplay.

I guess there won't be major playability problems since most NES PAL games were originally designed for NTSC and thus aren't confused by having less time for their calculations every frame. (On other systems (C64 for instance) where many games were designed only or primarily for PAL there are however lots of compatibility problems when running PAL games on NTSC systems).

However, probably the only situation where fair competition against existing runs is where the gameplay of the PAL version wasn't altered at all compared to the NTSC version so by putting the PAL game into an NTSC NES you basically get the NTSC version.

Otherwise, if the developers compensated for PAL games having less frames per second, you get a game version that never existed naturally. Also, if you did a run, compensating for the timing differences may be difficult because many games lag if there's too much on screen at once, making comparisons difficult; NTSC games generally lag more than PAL games and adjusted PAL games on NTSC might lag even more than native NTSC games due to the game having to compute more due to faster gameplay.

ING-X

2009-09-07 03:17:22 pm

yeah that's an interesting situation, with star fox 64/lylat wars highscoring there is a similar "problem" with regional lockout. unlike most n64 games, sf64 doesn't have a framerate hardcoded into it, so on a pal n64 the ntsc version will run at 50hz (but without slowing the music down for some reason), and a pal game will run at 60hz on an ntsc n64 (with the music speeded up). n64hs allows for either framerate to be played on either version, but that's because there are no timing issues with sf64 highscoring (since it's not played for times, but rather for scores). for a game where the game is manually timed, this can be a serious issue for speedrunning, because things like lag differences can cause the 2 hz speeds to be incomparable, even on the same version of the game.

Kabuto

2009-09-07 03:27:02 pm

But nonetheless, even if one races for score, if game speed differs players with lower game speed will have an advantage over players with higher game speed due to better reactions.

ING-X

2009-09-07 04:33:14 pm

Not necessarily. People with fast reactions may find that they fail miserably on 50Hz because it's not fast enough for them, and people with slower reactions may find themselves doing better on 50Hz. Some people in sf64 highscoring actually choose to play 60Hz over 50Hz for this reason. It's all about personal preference - each speed has its ups and downs.

honorableJay

2009-09-07 05:01:18 pm

The Dork Knight himself.

There are some PAL games where tricks can be done that cannot be done on the NTSC version. Rygar comes to mind. I recall a few jumps in the PAL version of Rygar that can be done because the game is slower (something with the jumping physics, not sure what causes it as I've never played it myself). I guess the only way to be sure is to do a case by case basis (an emulator might be a good testing ground for this since it's only NES he's talking about).

dannnnn

2009-09-08 07:33:38 am

Yeah, Rygar definitely has some gameplay differences. I haven't played it myself, but from what I've read about it the PAL version is more difficult. So if I ever wanted to run Rygar, I'd obviously buy an NTSC copy of the game (or buy a PAL NES to run it in 50hz).

Does anyone happen to know if Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers has any region differences? I bought it recently and it's a game I'm strongly considering speedrunning.

ING-X

2009-09-08 01:17:18 pm

yeah super metroid has something similar in the pal version - since the doors open and close slower, it's feasibly possible to skip the torizo on a console run (whereas on the ntsc version you have to literally be frame perfect AND press L or R 30 times per second, something that no human will ever be capable of).