Ruling required on a glitch + quick saving (Max Payne)

ridd3r.

Edit history:

ridd3r.: 2011-06-09 03:04:52 pm

ridd3r.: 2011-06-07 04:03:44 pm

ridd3r.: 2011-06-07 04:03:19 pm

ridd3r.: 2011-06-07 04:02:30 pm

2011-06-07 04:01:00 pm

we have lift off

I would have just asked Flip, but I'm interested to see what people think as well as it's not an easy decision in my opinion.

Basically I just discovered a pretty big glitch in Max Payne

There are a few things to understand. Firstly the save glitch, which is used to activate this glitch, has already been used on the latest run I did; it did not warrent a separate category. This glitch is activated by essentially dying in a cutscene. Since you can't die in a cutscene the game gives you full damage and lets you procede as normal. The enemies react to you by moving as they normally would, however they don't shoot at you anymore. Finally the undead state you're in is reset at the start of part 2, so it lasts from p1c1-p1c9 (8.5 out of 25 levels). I can't think of anywhere else it can be activated, but that doesn't mean there isn't anywhere.

My question is, does this warrent a separate category? The only separate glitch categories we currently have are for large skip glitches (I think). This glitch doesn't let you skip any part of a level, it just means you don't have to worry about a lot of the enemies (key enemies still need to be killed to progress). It reminds me of the glitch in IWBTG, except you don't die for this and you aren't invincible...

Thread title:

I would have just asked Flip, but I'm interested to see what people think as well as it's not an easy decision in my opinion.

Basically I just discovered a [url=http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/max_payne__doa_segmented__ss_sub_hour_264.html#max_payne__doa_segmented__ss_sub_hour_264]pretty big glitch in Max Payne[/url]

There are a few things to understand. Firstly the save glitch, which is used to activate this glitch, has already been used on the latest run I did; it did not warrent a separate category. This glitch is activated by essentially dying in a cutscene. Since you can't die in a cutscene the game gives you full damage and lets you procede as normal. The enemies react to you by moving as they normally would, however they don't shoot at you anymore. Finally the undead state you're in is reset at the start of part 2, so it lasts from p1c1-p1c9 (8.5 out of 25 levels). I can't think of anywhere else it can be activated, but that doesn't mean there isn't anywhere.

My question is, does this warrent a separate category? The only separate glitch categories we currently have are for large skip glitches (I think). This glitch doesn't let you skip any part of a level, it just means you don't have to worry about a lot of the enemies (key enemies still need to be killed to progress). It reminds me of the glitch in IWBTG, except you don't die for this and you aren't invincible...

ZenicReverie

2011-06-07 06:35:51 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Vandal Hearts has an exploit where you can raise your level to make over half the game a cake walk, and that was deemed a separate category. Just throwing that out there as another reason a game can have a separate category.

Pootrain

2011-06-07 07:42:06 pm

train kept rollin

I dont think this warrents a seperate catagory since you wouldnt be chaning the route through the game significantly. You would just be playing less conservatively then a run without this glitch right?

ridd3r.

2011-06-08 12:18:29 am

we have lift off

Yeah route would be very similar, but I'd have to kill those in my way and key enemies. Should save 2-3 minutes max in a RTA run. Segmented it would probably be a lot less (30s maybe).

mikwuyma

2011-06-08 03:01:09 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

I think if you could do this glitch in every level, then it should be a separate category, but as it is right now, I don't see making it a separate category.

ridd3r.

2011-06-08 10:04:00 am

we have lift off

There are some levels with no cutscenes, so it definitely can't be done on every level. I would agree it should be a separate category if you could turn it on and off at will, or do it on every level, but this is much more of a freak accident case.

ridd3r.

2011-06-09 03:11:31 pm

we have lift off

OK I have another thing I need to check - see two attached files.

Since this run is played for best real time, quick saving causes an issue. As you quick save there are several frames worth of lag that is fairly noticeable - after testing it a few times the lag can vary from 3-5 frames and may well be dependant on the players PC. Add to this the fact that when I'm trying to activate a glitch by quick saving, I have to hit it on a particular frame.

Historically I have spammed save (and since the in-game timer was used for the other run it wasn't an issue). In the attached case there is 21 frames worth of play which is essentially stationary, for a segmented run this will add up to a lot over the course of the whole run.

I propose cutting out the stationary frames - see frames_XQ vs frames2_XQ. No frames are lost while the game saves, but as I say it makes it stationary and so it seems to me the only fair way to do this is to exclude those frames from gameplay. This means either editing or counting them out.

OK I have another thing I need to check - see two attached files.

Since this run is played for best real time, quick saving causes an issue. As you quick save there are several frames worth of lag that is fairly noticeable - after testing it a few times the lag can vary from 3-5 frames and may well be dependant on the players PC. Add to this the fact that when I'm trying to activate a glitch by quick saving, I have to hit it on a particular frame.

Historically I have spammed save (and since the in-game timer was used for the other run it wasn't an issue). In the attached case there is 21 frames worth of play which is essentially stationary, for a segmented run this will add up to a lot over the course of the whole run.

I propose cutting out the stationary frames - see frames_XQ vs frames2_XQ. No frames are lost while the game saves, but as I say it makes it stationary and so it seems to me the only fair way to do this is to exclude those frames from gameplay. This means either editing or counting them out.

Attachments:

frames2_XQ.mp4

frames_XQ.mp4

ExplodingCabbage

2011-06-09 03:45:59 pm

There's some contradictory precedent on save lag. In Bioshock runs it's edited out. Infinity Engine runs keep it in and include it in timing.

It should probably be edited out in cases where the lag varies depending upon how fast your PC is, though even then it may not matter much in many cases.

If the lag is fixed, then honestly, I don't think it matters in the slightest which rule any given run uses. If it were up to me, I'd just say: "ridd3r, you're a competent and intelligent runner, and this is a decision that doesn't relate to any wide-reaching rules or values the site has. It's purely technical, and really there's no reason for anyone except you to care. So keep the lag in or edit it out, we don't mind, just pick the rule you prefer and we'll roll with it."

Flip

2011-06-15 03:10:32 pm

1-Up!

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

It should probably be edited out in cases where the lag varies depending upon how fast your PC is, though even then it may not matter much in many cases.

This.