Pokemon XD: Gale of Darkness

Edit history:

PMIT: 2008-12-19 07:04:34 pm

2008-12-19 06:54:26 pm

So, I played through this game a few months ago to find speedrunning potential, and with the talk about Colosseum, I thought I should start some discussion for XD.

The Pokemon used were Jolteon and Houndoom, both are early and along the path, fast, and have good type coverage, and in that first run they held up well. They were slightly overlevelled at the end because I fought most of optional Cipher trainers, but both had -Sp. Attack natures, so the overall damage from about 5 levels should be about the same. I also didn't think about Rare Candies, so those weren't used in that run either.

Either way, I started a new game today to iron everything out, and went through the ONBS Station crisis, and everything is going smoothly, but it seems like there will be a lot of segmentation early on.

Final movesets right now are Thunderbolt/Thunder/HP Grass/filler for Jolteon and Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Faint Attack/filler for Houndoom. Crunch takes too many levels.

What I'm least sure on is the Master Ball. There's several needlessly long cutscenes that come with it, and none of the pokemon that would probably get caught with it take terribly long without it. Lugia can be OHKOed with a critical Thunderbolt, Snorlax has Shadow End and Shadow Half(from Electabuzz) to cut down its HP, and that just leaves Chansey who I could probably manipulate critical hits against.

I'll edit the route in later.

Edit: Forgot my time after ONBS, a very beatable 2:24.

Thread title:

So, I played through this game a few months ago to find speedrunning potential, and with the talk about Colosseum, I thought I should start some discussion for XD.

The Pokemon used were Jolteon and Houndoom, both are early and along the path, fast, and have good type coverage, and in that first run they held up well. They were slightly overlevelled at the end because I fought most of optional Cipher trainers, but both had -Sp. Attack natures, so the overall damage from about 5 levels should be about the same. I also didn't think about Rare Candies, so those weren't used in that run either.

Either way, I started a new game today to iron everything out, and went through the ONBS Station crisis, and everything is going smoothly, but it seems like there will be a lot of segmentation early on.

Final movesets right now are Thunderbolt/Thunder/HP Grass/filler for Jolteon and Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Faint Attack/filler for Houndoom. Crunch takes too many levels.

What I'm least sure on is the Master Ball. There's several needlessly long cutscenes that come with it, and none of the pokemon that would probably get caught with it take terribly long without it. Lugia can be OHKOed with a critical Thunderbolt, Snorlax has Shadow End and Shadow Half(from Electabuzz) to cut down its HP, and that just leaves Chansey who I could probably manipulate critical hits against.

I'll edit the route in later.

Edit: Forgot my time after ONBS, a very beatable 2:24.

Toothache

2008-12-19 09:12:08 pm

Let the music play!

Hey there! I was gonna tackle XD after I finished with my Colosseum run, but I'll definitely keep my eye out on this. Are you going after a straight run through the game, or a 100% snags run? If you're trying to do a straight run through the game, then what I would suggest is to choose something that can hit both opponents and solo the game - it would be a lot faster in the long run. I know in planning my Colosseum run I will be using Feraligatr solo throughout most of the game, at least for the straight run. (I'm currently in testing the 100% Colosseum run, though, which will also give me good data on a straight run of that). Its unfortunate you dont have immediate access to anything that can abuse the raw power of the starter abilities, like Torrent. Either way, soloing the game will give you basically double the exp you would normally get, finishing the game at a rough estimate of L65-70 (or perhaps higher) rather than the L50ish you would normally expect for just using 2 pokemon.

It is unfortunate that Pick Up is level-based in XD, otherwise I would suggest using Teddiursa throughout the whole game to grab stuff like Rare Candy, PP Ups and vitamins. I know I will be attempting to manipulate Pick Up for RCs as soon as I am able, since Colosseum's Pick Up is not level-based.

Still, there are many tricks available to you to try and speed the game up, but the basis I'm working under is to try and make battles last as few turns as possible, since the animations eat up a lot of time (and cannot be turned off unlike the handheld games). Using a second pokemon also adds time in battles too, which is why soloing for some time will be a viable time saver (as well as gaining more exp than expected, making the game easier and battles faster, as higher stats turn 2HKOs into OHKOs and so on).

Anyway, good luck with the run, but if you beat me to this, and I think I can do it faster, I will be doing this after Colosseum.

Hey there! I was gonna tackle XD after I finished with my Colosseum run, but I'll definitely keep my eye out on this. Are you going after a straight run through the game, or a 100% snags run? If you're trying to do a straight run through the game, then what I would suggest is to choose something that can hit both opponents and solo the game - it would be a lot faster in the long run. I know in planning my Colosseum run I will be using Feraligatr solo throughout most of the game, at least for the straight run. (I'm currently in testing the 100% Colosseum run, though, which will also give me good data on a straight run of that). Its unfortunate you dont have immediate access to anything that can abuse the raw power of the starter abilities, like Torrent. Either way, soloing the game will give you basically double the exp you would normally get, finishing the game at a rough estimate of L65-70 (or perhaps higher) rather than the L50ish you would normally expect for just using 2 pokemon.

It is unfortunate that Pick Up is level-based in XD, otherwise I would suggest using Teddiursa throughout the whole game to grab stuff like Rare Candy, PP Ups and vitamins. I know I will be attempting to manipulate Pick Up for RCs as soon as I am able, since Colosseum's Pick Up is not level-based.

Still, there are many tricks available to you to try and speed the game up, but the basis I'm working under is to try and make battles last as few turns as possible, since the animations eat up a lot of time (and cannot be turned off unlike the handheld games). Using a second pokemon also adds time in battles too, which is why soloing for some time will be a viable time saver (as well as gaining more exp than expected, making the game easier and battles faster, as higher stats turn 2HKOs into OHKOs and so on).

Anyway, good luck with the run, but if you beat me to this, and I think I can do it faster, I will be doing this after Colosseum.

ForteGS

2008-12-20 02:46:17 am

Bring me the flaming voodoo canonball!

Eevee once evolved into an Espeon is a great sweeper in this game.

petrie911

2008-12-20 04:10:06 am

Everybody loves Hypnotoad!

Unfortunately, all the eeveelutions have rather poor movepools, but they're still among the best you'll get.

Vaporeon can get Ice moves and has equal Sp. Attack to Jolteon, as well as getting Bite, but unfortunately has no access to Surf in this game. 60 base speed may be a problem, but those defenses means it won't go down easily.

Espeon has the highest sp. attack at 130 base, but only gets psychic moves.

Jolteon is pretty much stuck with Electric and is weak to EQ.

Flareon has a decent TM movepool and 130 base attack to use them off of, but its STAB fire attacks come from its lackluster 95 base sp. attack. Plus, overlaps with Houndoom. EQ weak just further hurts it.

Umbreon doesn't have the raw power to work for this. Houndoom overlap doesn't help.

And I'm not sure how you expect to get a good HP Grass, as its type and power are completely random.

PMIT

2008-12-23 10:07:29 pm

Well I finished my "test" run today with a time of 7:04. I call it a test with quotations because I really didn't try for anything optimal and didn't even save+restart against anybody except the last two trainers. I'd say 6:30 should be the maximum time somebody should shoot for.

Toothache: The idea was for a straight run through the game, but a 100% snags run wouldn't be too different I'd imagine considering that almost every shadow is on a required trainer. The idea of going solo is an interesting one, but I don't think it would be faster in this game. Unlike Colosseum, you barely get any moves that hit both opponents early on except for the weak Shadow moves. The pokemon who do get them either don't show up until Citadark Isle or are too slow, weak, and/or too far behind, like Seel and Shellder. Earthquake comes pretty late and would only speed up a couple battles from what I remember. many trainers have flying and levitating pokemon. Once Phenac is reached through this setup, most opponents are OHKOed and the rest can have criticals manipulated. Still, it'll be interesting to see which path is faster.

petrie and forte: I decided on Jolteon because of its speed, the ability to get the Thunder TM fairly early, and that water and flying types are very common enemy types in this game. Espeon has nice Special Attack but there are hardly any Poison and Fighting types in comparison. Most of them are lacking in Sp. Defense anyway and can be OHKOed.

As for HP Grass, I plan to get it through the tedious method of restarting until I get it and a +Sp. Atk nature. The type is all that really matters here. As long as the power is passable it'll be sufficient because things like Quagsire, Whiscash, and Rhydon won't need too much. Lanturn is the only potential troublemaker. Unfortunately, it'll be necessary because it saves a lot of time, especially in the first Snattle battle. Quagsire and Lanturn together are some of the most time-consuming to take out with the Jolteon-Houndoom team.

As far as the run itself, I accidentally discovered that you can lose in a few battles and continue in the story. The "boss" at the ONBS takeover and the first Zook fight (Zangoose guy) are two cases. It also fully heals your team. I'll have to test it, but I'd imagine the Miror B. fights are the same. It's too bad his Pokemon aren't nearly as good as his music so it would probably be faster to just beat him either way. Final levels were 53 for Jolteon and 48 for Houndoom (with a Rare Candy).

Well I finished my "test" run today with a time of 7:04. I call it a test with quotations because I really didn't try for anything optimal and didn't even save+restart against anybody except the last two trainers. I'd say 6:30 should be the maximum time somebody should shoot for.

Toothache: The idea was for a straight run through the game, but a 100% snags run wouldn't be too different I'd imagine considering that almost every shadow is on a required trainer. The idea of going solo is an interesting one, but I don't think it would be faster in this game. Unlike Colosseum, you barely get any moves that hit both opponents early on except for the weak Shadow moves. The pokemon who do get them either don't show up until Citadark Isle or are too slow, weak, and/or too far behind, like Seel and Shellder. Earthquake comes pretty late and would only speed up a couple battles from what I remember. many trainers have flying and levitating pokemon. Once Phenac is reached through this setup, most opponents are OHKOed and the rest can have criticals manipulated. Still, it'll be interesting to see which path is faster.

petrie and forte: I decided on Jolteon because of its speed, the ability to get the Thunder TM fairly early, and that water and flying types are very common enemy types in this game. Espeon has nice Special Attack but there are hardly any Poison and Fighting types in comparison. Most of them are lacking in Sp. Defense anyway and can be OHKOed.

As for HP Grass, I plan to get it through the tedious method of restarting until I get it and a +Sp. Atk nature. The type is all that really matters here. As long as the power is passable it'll be sufficient because things like Quagsire, Whiscash, and Rhydon won't need too much. Lanturn is the only potential troublemaker. Unfortunately, it'll be necessary because it saves a lot of time, especially in the first Snattle battle. Quagsire and Lanturn together are some of the most time-consuming to take out with the Jolteon-Houndoom team.

As far as the run itself, I accidentally discovered that you can lose in a few battles and continue in the story. The "boss" at the ONBS takeover and the first Zook fight (Zangoose guy) are two cases. It also fully heals your team. I'll have to test it, but I'd imagine the Miror B. fights are the same. It's too bad his Pokemon aren't nearly as good as his music so it would probably be faster to just beat him either way. Final levels were 53 for Jolteon and 48 for Houndoom (with a Rare Candy).

yoshmaster5

2008-12-23 10:29:52 pm

Also tenkiforecast

I second using Jolteon as the eeveevolution.

Really, looking at the data, the majority of ALL pokemon types are under these three: Normal, Flying, and Water. There are mixes imbetween, but the main point is there--a good amount are weak to electric attacks. That's why the Boltbeam setup (Icebeam + Thunderbolt) is a standard in competitive play.

And good luck getting the HP grass... *shudders* heck, trying for decent IV's when breeding is annoying enough. That just sounds like a royal pain in the ass.

Also I agree with the houndoom idea. While you will have two special attackers instead of one physical and one special, it's movepool is decent and you get a lot of type coverage. I think the main issue with that setup is any sort of special wall, but focused attacks should fall it quickly. And unless you decide to to a Thunderbolt/Sunny day set on Jolteon while giving Houndoom Solarbeam, it would be a pain to take out both Quagsire and Lanturn. But, I don't know how effective that setup would be... *shrugs* Either way, you don't get those good moves until late in the game, so it's rather moot right now.

Good luck!

I second using Jolteon as the eeveevolution.

Really, looking at the data, the majority of ALL pokemon types are under these three: Normal, Flying, and Water.  There are mixes imbetween, but the main point is there--a good amount are weak to electric attacks.  That's why the Boltbeam setup (Icebeam + Thunderbolt) is a standard in competitive play.

And good luck getting the HP grass... *shudders* heck, trying for decent IV's when breeding is annoying enough. That just sounds like a royal pain in the ass.

Also I agree with the houndoom idea. While you will have two special attackers instead of one physical and one special, it's movepool is decent and you get a lot of type coverage.  I think the main issue with that setup is any sort of special wall, but focused attacks should fall it quickly.  And unless you decide to to a Thunderbolt/Sunny day set on Jolteon while giving Houndoom Solarbeam, it would be a pain to take out both Quagsire and Lanturn. But, I don't know how effective that setup would be... *shrugs* Either way, you don't get those good moves until late in the game, so it's rather moot right now.

Good luck!

Toothache

2009-03-23 01:49:20 pm

Let the music play!

Since this game has been brought into discussion lately, I thought I'd better bump the thread and see what kind of progress has been happening lately. I know PMIT has been working on the run, although I wish he'd update a little more :-p.

ForteGS

2009-03-25 04:24:50 am

Bring me the flaming voodoo canonball!

It is a any% run, so it should be way easier to pull off.

100% shadow pokemon captured is insane in this game, especially the final battles.

Shadow Articuno+Zapdos+Moltres would be hard... Not to mention Mirror B and his annoying Ludicollo army (and Shadow Dragonite) when barely in your Lv50's

PMIT

2009-04-02 07:27:41 pm

All right, I didn't want to update this until I finished my final test run, but I've been busy with things like school ~~and playing Platinum~~, so to remove the clutter when I do finish it, I'll update with some of the things I've found.

It looks like my original estimate of sub 6:30 was way off the mark. I'd say sub 5:30 is a more reasonable estimate, and that old test run even had a decent HP type in Water compared to a useless HP Flying. I was a couple minutes over 4 hours just before starting Citadark Isle.

The most interesting thing I've found is that Shadow Pokemon really are more like "fighting machines" in that their stats (as enemies of course) are augmented. I'm not sure what it is, but my theories are that it's either a state of all 252 EVs or all stats with a +1 boost. I don't know if shadow pokemon were like this in Colosseum, but I first discovered it with the shadow Spinarak in the Shadow Pkmn Lab. According to damage calculators, Ember from the Houndour I had should OHKO that Spinarak over 99% of the time, but sometimes it wasn't even going into the red zone. Fortunately it got the KO eventually, and I found that it was the same with other Shadow Pokemon. Some were actually outspeeding Houndoom (Quiet nature) when they shouldn't have like Snorunt and Venomoth.

As for the actual run details:
- I won't be able to avoid using scents on Teddiursa. Even when going into Reverse Mode as many times as possible without needlessly extending battles, there were still about 1 and a half bars of the shadow meter left.
- Houndour will need a good speed IV to outspeed some pokemon in the Shadow Pkmn Lab, especially Lovrina's Roselia
- some Pokeballs on the path will be used for catching some Shadow Pokemon
- I will intentionally lose twice to save time (the ones mentioned I've mentioned above, although there are other places)
- it looks like relatively few items will actually be needed in the run
- Ember will be kept instead of a filler like Roar to save PP
- unfortunately(?), I will abuse the save anywhere system to ensure battles are as fast as possible

That last point leads me to ask this question: Will the "save penalty" be applied for this game? It doesn't seem quite right to me, because like the handhelds you can't save mid-battle, but I'd like an official ruling.

All right, I didn't want to update this until I finished my final test run, but I've been busy with things like school [s]and playing Platinum[/s], so to remove the clutter when I do finish it, I'll update with some of the things I've found.

It looks like my original estimate of sub 6:30 was way off the mark. I'd say sub 5:30 is a more reasonable estimate, and that old test run even had a decent HP type in Water compared to a useless HP Flying. I was a couple minutes over 4 hours just before starting Citadark Isle.

The most interesting thing I've found is that Shadow Pokemon really are more like "fighting machines" in that their stats (as enemies of course) are augmented. I'm not sure what it is, but my theories are that it's either a state of all 252 EVs or all stats with a +1 boost. I don't know if shadow pokemon were like this in Colosseum, but I first discovered it with the shadow Spinarak in the Shadow Pkmn Lab. According to damage calculators, Ember from the Houndour I had should OHKO that Spinarak over 99% of the time, but sometimes it wasn't even going into the red zone. Fortunately it got the KO eventually, and I found that it was the same with other Shadow Pokemon. Some were actually outspeeding Houndoom (Quiet nature) when they shouldn't have like Snorunt and Venomoth.

As for the actual run details:
- I won't be able to avoid using scents on Teddiursa. Even when going into Reverse Mode as many times as possible without needlessly extending battles, there were still about 1 and a half bars of the shadow meter left.
- Houndour will need a good speed IV to outspeed some pokemon in the Shadow Pkmn Lab, especially Lovrina's Roselia
- some Pokeballs on the path will be used for catching some Shadow Pokemon
- I will intentionally lose twice to save time (the ones mentioned I've mentioned above, although there are other places)
- it looks like relatively few items will actually be needed in the run
- Ember will be kept instead of a filler like Roar to save PP
- unfortunately(?), I will abuse the save anywhere system to ensure battles are as fast as possible

That last point leads me to ask this question: Will the "save penalty" be applied for this game? It doesn't seem quite right to me, because like the handhelds you can't save mid-battle, but I'd like an official ruling.

UltimateDarius

2009-04-02 07:38:27 pm

Back in the game!

Quote from PMIT:

That last point leads me to ask this question: Will the "save penalty" be applied for this game? It doesn't seem quite right to me, because like the handhelds you can't save mid-battle, but I'd like an official ruling.

I can't say for this game, but in my experience with the handheld Pokemon games, the timer continues to tick seconds off even as you're saving. Therefore, each save costs you more like 10 seconds rather than half a second. Because of being stuck with the ten second penalty, the half second penalty is nixed, to paraphrase my conversation with mikwuyma.

UchihaSasuke

2009-04-02 08:48:11 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

i'm pretty sure saving in a memory card 1019 is much faster than in the 251 one. i had files for this game in both kinds of cards and in the 1019 card saving was pretty quick.
this could help to reduce that penalty.

PMIT

2009-04-02 09:20:40 pm

Yeah, saving is much faster in this game, it only takes about 3-4 seconds including the menu.

Hariyama465

Edit history:

Hariyama465: 2010-04-23 02:37:58 pm

2010-04-23 02:27:23 pm

Sorry for bumping such an old thread, but I wanted to speedrun this game, myself.

Actually, I hadn't even thought about looking up this game at SDA Forums until I had already started my own run, currently I'm at Phenac city right before you catch shadow snorunt with a time of 2:23.

Oh, by the way, my test run is a 100% snag one, and I'm at Phenac with a time of 2:23 right now, so I'd say I'm doing really well.

My pokemon are Jolteon and Houndoom. Obviously I didn't consult this thread before starting my run, but it seems we all have the same idea, to use Jolteon and Houndoom. Except my Jolteon was Modest so I know it had the most special attack it could have at its levels, and here's the thing: I'm disappointed.

Currently I gave Jolteon and Houndoom Thunder and Fire Blast, but I'm thinking about starting the run over and picking Espeon instead. Reason being is this:

Jolteon at level 100 with no beneficial nature does about 65 damage with Thundershock to a Glalie of the same level with no beneficial nature. Espeon does 95 with Confusion to the same Glalie, without beneficial nature.

A Jolteon with Thunderbolt will do about 150 damage, whereas Espeon with Psychic does 160. What I'm getting at is this:

Sure you can teach Jolteon Thunder, which in the long run will do way more damage than Psychic will ever, but it's inaccurate, and in the long term it's only got 5 PP, in a speedrun you can't rely on it.

So yeah, Thunderbolt does the same damage as Psychic pretty much, sure, but you have to realize this factor:

For the most part, you get Thunderbolt at Cipher Key Lair, whereas you get Psychic at Snagem Hideout, which is earlier than Cipher Key Lair. Not only that, but up until Phenac City you'll be using only Thundershock with Jolteon.

So at the beginning, it would be way faster to just have Espeon with Confusion. Because, even though my Jolteon in my test run had Modest nature, there were a bunch of pokemon who didn't outright get KO'd by Jolteon, and only had a sliver of HP left. Those pokemon would go down if Espeon used confusion on them.

And plus, Houndoom with Fire Blast will do the same damage as Jolteon with Thunder against anything that doesn't resist it, since Houndoom and Jolteon have the same special attack stat and Thunder/Fire Blast do the same amount.

What I noticed was that early on Jolteon really struggled to do damage, even with Thundershock and Modest, against many opponents. Plus, at the beginning, a lot of pokemon are part poison at least up until Lovrina, and even after that poison is not an uncommon type. It is true that you see a lot of water and flying, and Jolteon would do way more damage to those than Espeon would, but it's not like Espeon is useless against those.

And finally, if you use the Jolteon/Houndoom combo you're completely walled by ground. Granted, there aren't many ground types in this game to go up against, but still. Snattle is a great example, Quagsire and Lanturn aren't going to wall Psychic like they are Electric.

I noticed that early game there are a lot of segments (I can post my route here if you guys want, I think it's pretty optimized) but i think for early game up until Snattle Espeon would completely own the game unlike its cousin Jolteon, but maybe later Jolteon would be the better choice.

I did go with Jolteon because of its speed and access to Thunder Wave and Thunder, both of which helped with snagging and just general pokemon killing, but it's not like Espeon's got low speed. Trust me, I was pissed off with how weak Jolteon is at the beginning, and considering that I am doing 100% snag and have a time of 2:23 at Phenac, I'd say I could be much faster with Espeon.

Also, as far as the whole majority of game are weak to electric, I do agree on that, but for the most part I'm pretty sure Espeon can take out those guys as well as Jolteon could.

But I mean I could be wrong, and Jolteon could really be the better choice, but just from what I've seen, for the most part Jolteon's thundershock was too weak to kill a lot of things, even with Modest nature, there were still a lot of pokemon who had just a sliver of HP left.

Although the difference between your run and my run is that I'm trying to snag everything. Which, I mean, here's where Jolteon makes a difference. That thunder wave would really help in catching a lot of Pokemon later on in Citadark, I assume.

Bah, I'm not quite sure. I think I will move my save to some memory card and start over, use Espeon, and see which one's faster.

EDIT: Crap. Stupid game doesn't let you transfer Memory Card data. That's what I was going to do for Houndour, to make sure it got a good nature I would just save before I fought resix, transfer the save to another memory card, then keep going and if i got a bad nature transfer the first save back and well you know.

But yeah first time around I got a Timid Houndour which was great. Hoping I get a beneficial nature this time, too...

Sorry for bumping such an old thread, but I wanted to speedrun this game, myself.

Actually, I hadn't even thought about looking up this game at SDA Forums until I had already started my own run, currently I'm at Phenac city right before you catch shadow snorunt with a time of 2:23.

Oh, by the way, my test run is a 100% snag one, and I'm at Phenac with a time of 2:23 right now, so I'd say I'm doing really well.

My pokemon are Jolteon and Houndoom. Obviously I didn't consult this thread before starting my run, but it seems we all have the same idea, to use Jolteon and Houndoom. Except my Jolteon was Modest so I know it had the most special attack it could have at its levels, and here's the thing: I'm disappointed.

Currently I gave Jolteon and Houndoom Thunder and Fire Blast, but I'm thinking about starting the run over and picking Espeon instead. Reason being is this:

Jolteon at level 100 with no beneficial nature does about 65 damage with Thundershock to a Glalie of the same level with no beneficial nature. Espeon does 95 with Confusion to the same Glalie, without beneficial nature.

A Jolteon with Thunderbolt will do about 150 damage, whereas Espeon with Psychic does 160. What I'm getting at is this:

Sure you can teach Jolteon Thunder, which in the long run will do way more damage than Psychic will ever, but it's inaccurate, and in the long term it's only got 5 PP, in a speedrun you can't rely on it.

So yeah, Thunderbolt does the same damage as Psychic pretty much, sure, but you have to realize this factor:

For the most part, you get Thunderbolt at Cipher Key Lair, whereas you get Psychic at Snagem Hideout, which is earlier than Cipher Key Lair. Not only that, but up until Phenac City you'll be using only Thundershock with Jolteon.

So at the beginning, it would be way faster to just have Espeon with Confusion. Because, even though my Jolteon in my test run had Modest nature, there were a bunch of pokemon who didn't outright get KO'd by Jolteon, and only had a sliver of HP left. Those pokemon would go down if Espeon used confusion on them.

And plus, Houndoom with Fire Blast will do the same damage as Jolteon with Thunder against anything that doesn't resist it, since Houndoom and Jolteon have the same special attack stat and Thunder/Fire Blast do the same amount.

What I noticed was that early on Jolteon really struggled to do damage, even with Thundershock and Modest, against many opponents. Plus, at the beginning, a lot of pokemon are part poison at least up until Lovrina, and even after that poison is not an uncommon type. It is true that you see a lot of water and flying, and Jolteon would do way more damage to those than Espeon would, but it's not like Espeon is useless against those.

And finally, if you use the Jolteon/Houndoom combo you're completely walled by ground. Granted, there aren't many ground types in this game to go up against, but still. Snattle is a great example, Quagsire and Lanturn aren't going to wall Psychic like they are Electric.

I noticed that early game there are a lot of segments (I can post my route here if you guys want, I think it's pretty optimized) but i think for early game up until Snattle Espeon would completely own the game unlike its cousin Jolteon, but maybe later Jolteon would be the better choice.

I did go with Jolteon because of its speed and access to Thunder Wave and Thunder, both of which helped with snagging and just general pokemon killing, but it's not like Espeon's got low speed. Trust me, I was pissed off with how weak Jolteon is at the beginning, and considering that I am doing 100% snag and have a time of 2:23 at Phenac, I'd say I could be much faster with Espeon.

Also, as far as the whole majority of game are weak to electric, I do agree on that, but for the most part I'm pretty sure Espeon can take out those guys as well as Jolteon could.

But I mean I could be wrong, and Jolteon could really be the better choice, but just from what I've seen, for the most part Jolteon's thundershock was too weak to kill a lot of things, even with Modest nature, there were still a lot of pokemon who had just a sliver of HP left.

Although the difference between your run and my run is that I'm trying to snag everything. Which, I mean, here's where Jolteon makes a difference. That thunder wave would really help in catching a lot of Pokemon later on in Citadark, I assume.

Bah, I'm not quite sure. I think I will move my save to some memory card and start over, use Espeon, and see which one's faster.

EDIT: Crap. Stupid game doesn't let you transfer Memory Card data. That's what I was going to do for Houndour, to make sure it got a good nature I would just save before I fought resix, transfer the save to another memory card, then keep going and if i got a bad nature transfer the first save back and well you know.

But yeah first time around I got a Timid Houndour which was great. Hoping I get a beneficial nature this time, too...

TheMG2

2010-04-23 04:14:19 pm

Espeon would take longer to get. You would have to become friends with your eevee. Besides that... IDK.

Hariyama465

2010-04-23 04:33:20 pm

Actually, funny story about that. In XD Espeon is really quick to get.

Basically you give Eevee the hold item and like after a few battles he evolves. This one video walkthrough on youtube had it evolve after just a couple of battles.

Plus, you're forced into about 7 battles if you want to snag 100% pokemon, 5 at Agate and 2 in Gateon. Through all of those, it should evolve into Espeon.

Another thing is, you don't really want Eevee to evolve into Espeon before 16. At 16 it gets Confusion, but otherwise it can't really do that much with Bite, and levelling up a Jolteon/Espeon is harder to do than levelling up an Eevee. So, the idea is to just use Eevee through those forced battles, and then hopefully it'll evolve by 16 and learn confusion.

TheMG2

2010-04-23 04:38:28 pm

Quote from Yamasaur:

Actually, funny story about that. In XD Espeon is really quick to get.

Basically you give Eevee the hold item and like after a few battles he evolves. This one video walkthrough on youtube had it evolve after just a couple of battles.

Plus, you're forced into about 7 battles if you want to snag 100% pokemon, 5 at Agate and 2 in Gateon. Through all of those, it should evolve into Espeon.

Another thing is, you don't really want Eevee to evolve into Espeon before 16. At 16 it gets Confusion, but otherwise it can't really do that much with Bite, and levelling up a Jolteon/Espeon is harder to do than levelling up an Eevee. So, the idea is to just use Eevee through those forced battles, and then hopefully it'll evolve by 16 and learn confusion.

I knew it wasn't that long, but I wasn't sure if it could make a difference.

I wonder if the Master Ball glitch from Colosseum still works. I don't know how it really works in Colosseum, but it could help immensely in a 100% run. If it works.

[quote="Yamasaur"]
Actually, funny story about that. In XD Espeon is really quick to get.

Basically you give Eevee the hold item and like after a few battles he evolves. This one video walkthrough on youtube had it evolve after just a couple of battles.

Plus, you're forced into about 7 battles if you want to snag 100% pokemon, 5 at Agate and 2 in Gateon. Through all of those, it should evolve into Espeon.

Another thing is, you don't really want Eevee to evolve into Espeon before 16. At 16 it gets Confusion, but otherwise it can't really do that much with Bite, and levelling up a Jolteon/Espeon is harder to do than levelling up an Eevee. So, the idea is to just use Eevee through those forced battles, and then hopefully it'll evolve by 16 and learn confusion.
[/quote]

I knew it wasn't that long, but I wasn't sure if it could make a difference.

I wonder if the Master Ball glitch from Colosseum still works. I don't know how it really works in Colosseum, but it could help immensely in a 100% run. If it works.

Hariyama465

2010-04-23 04:39:52 pm

Unfortunately the Master Ball glitch doesn't work in this one. Which sucks for me trying to do a 100% snag run =\

In other news, JUST got Modest Eevee but...I screwed up so I had to reset ;_____________;

Dunno how long it'll take to get another one...

TheMG2

2010-04-23 04:53:53 pm

Quote from Yamasaur:

Unfortunately the Master Ball glitch doesn't work in this one. Which sucks for me trying to do a 100% snag run =\

Genius Senority, I am going to kill your programmers. I am also going to kill the guy who decided to make Cipher more goofy. One of the Cipher admins in Colosseum almost shoved a dude off Mt. Battle.

Anyways, Lugia/Greevil is going to be tough... 7 Shadow Pokemon in a row.

Hariyama465

2010-04-23 04:57:42 pm

Tell me about it. But...I'll save beforehand, I'll let the bugger have his own segment, and hopefully the combination of luck manipulation + shadow pokemon will help me out on him.

I've been coming to SDA for years and...the thought of XD being my first ever run submitted to this site is incredible. Makes me really anxious, and for that reason I'm hoping I can really submit a good run for this game. I mean, it's a great game, just most of the good/usable pokemon end up showing up at the end.

Poliwrath, my favorite pokemon ever, and he's like one of the last ones you get. Why couldn't you just get a Poliwhirl at the beginning of the game ;_;

TheMG2

2010-04-23 05:36:51 pm

Shroomish might be able to substitute for Volteon's Thunder wave. If I recall correctly, it has effect spore. Also, what do you plan to use the Master Ball on? Lugia? Dragonite?

Hariyama465

2010-04-23 06:17:11 pm

Shroomish isn't a bad idea. Upon purification Shroomish gets Stun Spore, which could be a substitute for Thunder Wave, plus Breloom's got great attack. And it evolves early.

But the issue is 70 speed. Plus he's got no special attack, and a pretty bad movepool. Houndoom would do the job better.

EDIT: Also, I'll probably just use the Master Ball on Dragonite. I mean, this is where Jolteon would help, because of Thunder Wave, but I think it'll just be easier to use Master Ball on Dragonite.

TheMG2

2010-04-24 12:39:33 pm

Another interesting idea: Shadow Half. It cuts the health of all pokemon in battle in half. However, it might require too much healling to use. Also, the pokemon would then be unable to do anything for one turn.

Hariyama465

2010-04-24 04:25:33 pm

Shadow Swellow learns it. And with his ridiculous speed, it might actually help a lot on pokemon like Lugia since I'm not using Master Ball on it.

In other news, I decided to take my save (Jolteon/Houndoom, 2:23 at Phenac) and go ahead and finish the game with it. Then I'm going to run the game again with Espeon and see if it's faster, but what I'm thinking is since I'm doing a 100% snag Jolteon's Thunder Wave is going to make a big difference with some of the later shadow pokemon.

Shadow Half + Thunder Wave should really help out with Greevil, too.

So we'll see. I still think Espeon is better for runs that aren't going to snag everything, since Espeon's stronger and reasonably fast, but for 100% snag runs I think Thunder Wave is invaluable.

Right now I've hit a snag at Phenac. Catching Shadow Snorunt all the way to Shadow Meowth is going to be all in one segment, but I forgot to pick up lemonades and Great Balls.

The Great Balls I can really do without, or I can get them later, because I can just reset if pokeballs don't catch in one go (all my snags so far have been one attempt snags--they haven't popped out) but lacking lemonades are going to be an issue.

Since I'm doing like 5 battles in a row, I have to heal often, meaning after every battle I need to go rest up at the guy in Phenac. Granted, he's RIGHT NEXT to Pre Gym, but this mistake i think cost me dearly.

Basically I could either A] Go to Pyrite right now and pick up Lemonades and Great Balls, then finish the segment up to Shadow Meowth, or I could just B] Use the guy's free bed to heal when I need to, then get those Lemonades/Great Balls AFTER Shadow Meowth. I think both things would be around the same time, though.

Does anybody know if, after the Pre Gym stuff, you need to go and battle all six Justy's to get access into Phenac Stadium?

Shadow Swellow learns it. And with his ridiculous speed, it might actually help a lot on pokemon like Lugia since I'm not using Master Ball on it.

In other news, I decided to take my save (Jolteon/Houndoom, 2:23 at Phenac) and go ahead and finish the game with it. Then I'm going to run the game again with Espeon and see if it's faster, but what I'm thinking is since I'm doing a 100% snag Jolteon's Thunder Wave is going to make a big difference with some of the later shadow pokemon.

Shadow Half + Thunder Wave should really help out with Greevil, too.

So we'll see. I still think Espeon is better for runs that aren't going to snag everything, since Espeon's stronger and reasonably fast, but for 100% snag runs I think Thunder Wave is invaluable.

Right now I've hit a snag at Phenac. Catching Shadow Snorunt all the way to Shadow Meowth is going to be all in one segment, but I forgot to pick up lemonades and Great Balls.

The Great Balls I can really do without, or I can get them later, because I can just reset if pokeballs don't catch in one go (all my snags so far have been one attempt snags--they haven't popped out) but lacking lemonades are going to be an issue.

Since I'm doing like 5 battles in a row, I have to heal often, meaning after every battle I need to go rest up at the guy in Phenac. Granted, he's RIGHT NEXT to Pre Gym, but this mistake i think cost me dearly.

Basically I could either A] Go to Pyrite right now and pick up Lemonades and Great Balls, then finish the segment up to Shadow Meowth, or I could just B] Use the guy's free bed to heal when I need to, then get those Lemonades/Great Balls AFTER Shadow Meowth. I think both things would be around the same time, though.

Does anybody know if, after the Pre Gym stuff, you need to go and battle all six Justy's to get access into Phenac Stadium?

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2010-04-24 04:42:06 pm

2010-04-24 04:33:32 pm

There are actually only four Justys. Two of the Hexagon brothers don't show up for some reason. (Thank you GameFaqs) I don't think so, but I don't know.

EDIT: I really doubt it.

Hariyama465

2010-04-24 04:41:25 pm

Interesting. Well, I think I should summarize the issue that I'm having, just to shed some light on the subject.

The run up to ONBS went fantastically, in my opinion. I did everything as fast as I could. ONBS rooftop is where things got sticky. The fight with Exol went stellar up until he sent out his Raichu. It used Dig which I didn't know it had, and that disoriented me.

I assumed it was using Dig on Jolteon, which only had 2 HP, seeing as how Jolteon was the only thing fast enough to go before Raichu, I switched it out for I think Spheal. But he ended up attacking Houndour instead, so I had to switch out Houndour for Voltorb. But, I couldn't switch back to Jolteon because there was a chance he'd use Dig again and try to hit Jolteon, so I just had Voltorb and Spheal try to finish off Raichu, but they both didn't, and Raichu kills Voltorb.

Then finally I switch back to Jolteon and use Quick Attack for the kill. Honestly I should have reset, but I didn't. Afterwards, the mistakes got even worse when, after talking to the lady who gave me the Battle CD Case, I accidently selected Phenac instead of Realgam, which cost me even more time.

And to make things worse, I saved in front of the Mayor's house, as opposed to in front of the guy's house where you get the Music CD.

To top things off, if I really do decide to go and get those Great Balls/Lemonades from Pyrite, it'll mean my having gone to Phenac after Realgam was totally useless.

I think if I submit this run it might get rejected just because of that one segment o_O

But i'll keep on going. Realistically speaking I've learned something from watching the likes of Satoryu and DjGrenola and especially DK28. DK28 said in his Super Castlevania 4 run that you shouldn't just reset after a mistake, because there might be something later on in the segment that makes up for the mistake.

So I don't think I'll stop here. I think I'll finish the run despite the ugly mess up with ONBS Rooftop. Who knows? Snattle till the end of the game might go so well it'll make up for this fiasco, but we'll see.

As far as CMDR Exol goes, you don't actually need to win the fight to progress through the game, but seeing as how I had to snag his shadow mawile, I didn't know if losing the fight would mean that Mawile would go away. Plus, I had 6 pokemon on me, it would have been MUCH faster to try to kill Raichu then have him try to kill all six of my pokemon.

However, with the first Zook fight, I think I'll go ahead and just deposit all my pokemon except for Jolteon and Houndoom, and have him just kill me. That'll be faster than attempting to kill all of his pokemon, for sure. Then I can just withdraw those shadow pokemon later if I need them.

Interesting. Well, I think I should summarize the issue that I'm having, just to shed some light on the subject.

The run up to ONBS went fantastically, in my opinion. I did everything as fast as I could. ONBS rooftop is where things got sticky. The fight with Exol went stellar up until he sent out his Raichu. It used Dig which I didn't know it had, and that disoriented me.

I assumed it was using Dig on Jolteon, which only had 2 HP, seeing as how Jolteon was the only thing fast enough to go before Raichu, I switched it out for I think Spheal. But he ended up attacking Houndour instead, so I had to switch out Houndour for Voltorb. But, I couldn't switch back to Jolteon because there was a chance he'd use Dig again and try to hit Jolteon, so I just had Voltorb and Spheal try to finish off Raichu, but they both didn't, and Raichu kills Voltorb.

Then finally I switch back to Jolteon and use Quick Attack for the kill. Honestly I should have reset, but I didn't. Afterwards, the mistakes got even worse when, after talking to the lady who gave me the Battle CD Case, I accidently selected Phenac instead of Realgam, which cost me even more time.

And to make things worse, I saved in front of the Mayor's house, as opposed to in front of the guy's house where you get the Music CD.

To top things off, if I really do decide to go and get those Great Balls/Lemonades from Pyrite, it'll mean my having gone to Phenac after Realgam was totally useless.

I think if I submit this run it might get rejected just because of that one segment o_O

But i'll keep on going. Realistically speaking I've learned something from watching the likes of Satoryu and DjGrenola and especially DK28. DK28 said in his Super Castlevania 4 run that you shouldn't just reset after a mistake, because there might be something later on in the segment that makes up for the mistake.

So I don't think I'll stop here. I think I'll finish the run despite the ugly mess up with ONBS Rooftop. Who knows? Snattle till the end of the game might go so well it'll make up for this fiasco, but we'll see.

As far as CMDR Exol goes, you don't actually need to win the fight to progress through the game, but seeing as how I had to snag his shadow mawile, I didn't know if losing the fight would mean that Mawile would go away. Plus, I had 6 pokemon on me, it would have been MUCH faster to try to kill Raichu then have him try to kill all six of my pokemon.

However, with the first Zook fight, I think I'll go ahead and just deposit all my pokemon except for Jolteon and Houndoom, and have him just kill me. That'll be faster than attempting to kill all of his pokemon, for sure. Then I can just withdraw those shadow pokemon later if I need them.