Pokemon Gold/Silver

mike89

Edit history:

mike89: 2006-10-17 08:21:04 am

2006-10-17 08:20:21 am

SEGA Junkie

Quote:

This is a SINGLE-SEGMENT run we're talking about. There is NO WAY in Pokemon Silver that you could get away with using just one Pokemon in a single-segment run.

You'd lose more time from the amount of lost battles that would occur (notably, the Elite Four and Ash) than you'd ever gain from minimizing the number of captures necessary or not having to switch.

Sure you could. You'd just need a lot of Revives. And you could always go out of your way to fight more trainers.

What part of the Elite Four is dangerous for Feraligatr?

Moreover, this wouldn't be a single-segment because you have to go into the menu between Johto and Kanto. Other runs have been denied because of this before.

FractalFusion

2006-10-17 08:46:14 am

Quote:

The issue with Mud-Slap is that its attack power is so hideously low that Ember does more damage against Rock/Ground Pokemon (I'm completely serious here). The accuracy drop is helpful, though. I do have plans to teach Mud-Slap to Quilava mainly because of that (hey, it's WAY better than Smokescreen).

Not too much that Mud-Slap is that low (it's only half of Ember), but Geodudes have poor special stats, and Cyndaquil gets STAB on Ember.

Mud-Slap is better than Smokescreen, but the drawback is that it can't hit flying.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-10-18 12:21:57 am

2006-10-17 09:59:44 am

Never give up!

Quote:

Moreover, this wouldn't be a single-segment because you have to go into the menu between Johto and Kanto. Other runs have been denied because of this before.

I'm just going to say I'm a bit skeptical there.

I notice from the existing Pokemon Gold run that in the case of Red, if you stick around for the whole credits, afterward (probably with user input) it sends you to that Pokemon Center without going to the menu. Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN the game doesn't similarly put you immediately at New Bark Town without a menu after the Elite 4?

Edit: ~~I recommend going back and actually checking this out if I don't get there first, because I'm thinking those prior runs tried to shortcut out of the credits.~~ Don't bother. At this point, I'm pretty much scrapping single-segment, and when I get around to this I'll test it myself.

Edit 2: I'm already working on a plan for how a Pokemon Silver segmented run would work. Let me list some details on how that would work:
-I'll make a grudging switch to Totodile. It's not for his power - it's simply because Cyndaquil doesn't get all the moves I'll need. If Cyndaquil were only able to have enough move diversity, I'd stick with him. (About the only critical move he can get is Return.)
-Since you can't get Sandshrew in Silver within the context of a speedrun, I have a different idea for making up for HMs. According to Mike Meevasin's Pokedex guide, Sentret can learn both Cut and Surf. If this is really true, I'm catching it. As far as Strength? I'm thinking either a Geodude or the Sudowoodo. For Whirlpool and Waterfall, should I stick with Poliwag or try my hand at the Red Gyarados? If the former, I'm fishing it up in Ilex Forest like my single-segment run plan had, rather than waiting, because that's a precious few seconds I can gain by not having to replace moves.
-The issue I have with the above is, if it's all true, I'll have three Surf-potential candidates by the time I get that HM (Sentret, Totodile, Poliwag). Should it be just Totodile, should it be just one of the other two, or should I pick two out of three? (The idea of not teaching it to Totodile is because by doing so, I make room for Hydro Pump near the end, which can decimate quite a few endgame Pokemon right there. I'll see how necessary it turns out to be when I review Brown_Bomber's run.)
-I plan on giving a short nickname to Totodile. Not likely to be a one-letter name - probably three letters at most though. By shortening the name, I cause less to need to be displayed during battles, which will probably add up to a number of seconds saved over the course of the run. However, I still want some degree of customization, which is why I'm allowing for three-letter names. (Current name I plan to use for the Totodile is "Max", although I'll take suggestions.)
-Basically, I plan on doing the prep work, like getting the HM users and such (this includes Pidgey, the Fly HM user), earlier in the run rather than later. I might lose out on a little time early, but I think it's justified by not having as much hassle later.
-Speaking of stuff early, when fighting wild Pokemon before Violet City, I plan on restarting if I get any level 2 Pokemon besides the ones I want to catch (OR any Bug-types, except maybe level 4 Kakunas which aren't awful experience-wise). Since we can't perfectly luck-manipulate in a console run, I'll hope for the rest to be split halfway as far as whether they're level 3 or level 4. (I'm not taking into account any level 5 Pokemon - I've seen them in that area before, but it's like once in a blue moon.) I don't necessarily need Rage for the rival (not when we have Leer to reduce defense instead), nor do I need Water Gun immediately after Falkner (what's with Nintendo and the name puns of some of the leaders, anyway?), so I'll just take whatever fights I get.
-I'll have a look at what other trainers are best, but I'm not skipping the hiker outside Union Cave like Brown_Bomber does.
-As TMs go, the only change I'm considering for sure is possibly going and getting TM02 in Ilex Forest. I'll have to examine Headbutt a little more though, and I also need to see what moves Totodile had last time in that area.
-It'd be 25+ segments easily. The maximum length I'd go without a save is 10 minutes (the Elite Four MAY be exempt from this rule, I dunno yet), and I think it's better if we simply get things right. There's probably going to be 4 or 5 before we even get into Violet City because of what I need to catch (and any Pokemon-catching segments will be separate and distinct from the main action, for both my and the viewer's sake).
-I probably WILL try to go through Rock Tunnel without Flash, instead relying on a map. Unless I'm hurting THAT much in terms of experience.

One last question: How well does speed compare between a level 60-ish Feraligatr and a level 73 Espeon? I'm thinking fitting in an X Speed (two at most - if it takes more than two, forget it) somewhere in the stat-up phase of the battle with Red may allow you to knock out Espeon before it gets a turn to use Reflect (and it may help with some of the other enemy Pokemon, I'm not sure).

It's going to take a couple of test runs to get an idea of what I need to do, and in accordance with previous policies as far as my own runs, I plan on waiting until the second one to show video. Just times and troubles for the first one.

Current known segment structure:
-Segment 1: Beginning to just before Rival battle
-Segment 2: Rival battle up to exiting New Bark Town the second time
-Segment 3: Catching either the Pidgey or the Sentret while still moving toward Cherrygrove
-Segment 4: Catching whoever I didn't already catch and going partway to Violet City
-Segment 5 (currently): Catching a Geodude in the cave outside Violet

More to come on this later.

Last thing: Is it just me, or does the Game Boy Tower of Pokemon Stadium 2 distort and amplify the audio of the second-generation Pokemon games?

[quote]Moreover, this wouldn't be a single-segment because you have to go into the menu between Johto and Kanto. Other runs have been denied because of this before.[/quote]

I'm just going to say I'm a bit skeptical there.

I notice from the existing Pokemon Gold run that in the case of Red, if you stick around for the whole credits, afterward (probably with user input) it sends you to that Pokemon Center without going to the menu.  Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN the game doesn't similarly put you immediately at New Bark Town without a menu after the Elite 4?

Edit: [s]I recommend going back and actually checking this out if I don't get there first, because I'm thinking those prior runs tried to shortcut out of the credits.[/s]  Don't bother.  At this point, I'm pretty much scrapping single-segment, and when I get around to this I'll test it myself.

Edit 2: I'm already working on a plan for how a Pokemon Silver segmented run would work.  Let me list some details on how that would work:
-I'll make a grudging switch to Totodile.  It's not for his power - it's simply because Cyndaquil doesn't get all the moves I'll need.  If Cyndaquil were only able to have enough move diversity, I'd stick with him.  (About the only critical move he can get is Return.)
-Since you can't get Sandshrew in Silver within the context of a speedrun, I have a different idea for making up for HMs.  According to Mike Meevasin's Pokedex guide, Sentret can learn both Cut and Surf.  If this is really true, I'm catching it.  As far as Strength?  I'm thinking either a Geodude or the Sudowoodo.  For Whirlpool and Waterfall, should I stick with Poliwag or try my hand at the Red Gyarados?  If the former, I'm fishing it up in Ilex Forest like my single-segment run plan had, rather than waiting, because that's a precious few seconds I can gain by not having to replace moves.
-The issue I have with the above is, if it's all true, I'll have three Surf-potential candidates by the time I get that HM (Sentret, Totodile, Poliwag).  Should it be just Totodile, should it be just one of the other two, or should I pick two out of three?  (The idea of not teaching it to Totodile is because by doing so, I make room for Hydro Pump near the end, which can decimate quite a few endgame Pokemon right there.  I'll see how necessary it turns out to be when I review Brown_Bomber's run.)
-I plan on giving a short nickname to Totodile.  Not likely to be a one-letter name - probably three letters at most though.  By shortening the name, I cause less to need to be displayed during battles, which will probably add up to a number of seconds saved over the course of the run.  However, I still want some degree of customization, which is why I'm allowing for three-letter names.  (Current name I plan to use for the Totodile is "Max", although I'll take suggestions.)
-Basically, I plan on doing the prep work, like getting the HM users and such (this includes Pidgey, the Fly HM user), earlier in the run rather than later.  I might lose out on a little time early, but I think it's justified by not having as much hassle later.
-Speaking of stuff early, when fighting wild Pokemon before Violet City, I plan on restarting if I get any level 2 Pokemon besides the ones I want to catch (OR any Bug-types, except maybe level 4 Kakunas which aren't awful experience-wise).  Since we can't perfectly luck-manipulate in a console run, I'll hope for the rest to be split halfway as far as whether they're level 3 or level 4.  (I'm not taking into account any level 5 Pokemon - I've seen them in that area before, but it's like once in a blue moon.)  I don't necessarily need Rage for the rival (not when we have Leer to reduce defense instead), nor do I need Water Gun immediately after Falkner (what's with Nintendo and the name puns of some of the leaders, anyway?), so I'll just take whatever fights I get.
-I'll have a look at what other trainers are best, but I'm not skipping the hiker outside Union Cave like Brown_Bomber does.
-As TMs go, the only change I'm considering for sure is possibly going and getting TM02 in Ilex Forest.  I'll have to examine Headbutt a little more though, and I also need to see what moves Totodile had last time in that area.
-It'd be 25+ segments easily.  The maximum length I'd go without a save is 10 minutes (the Elite Four MAY be exempt from this rule, I dunno yet), and I think it's better if we simply get things right.  There's probably going to be 4 or 5 before we even get into Violet City because of what I need to catch (and any Pokemon-catching segments will be separate and distinct from the main action, for both my and the viewer's sake).
-I probably WILL try to go through Rock Tunnel without Flash, instead relying on a map.  Unless I'm hurting THAT much in terms of experience.

One last question:  How well does speed compare between a level 60-ish Feraligatr and a level 73 Espeon?  I'm thinking fitting in an X Speed (two at most - if it takes more than two, forget it) somewhere in the stat-up phase of the battle with Red may allow you to knock out Espeon before it gets a turn to use Reflect (and it may help with some of the other enemy Pokemon, I'm not sure).

It's going to take a couple of test runs to get an idea of what I need to do, and in accordance with previous policies as far as my own runs, I plan on waiting until the second one to show video.  Just times and troubles for the first one.

Current known segment structure:
-Segment 1: Beginning to just before Rival battle
-Segment 2: Rival battle up to exiting New Bark Town the second time
-Segment 3: Catching either the Pidgey or the Sentret while still moving toward Cherrygrove
-Segment 4: Catching whoever I didn't already catch and going partway to Violet City
-Segment 5 (currently): Catching a Geodude in the cave outside Violet

More to come on this later.

Last thing:  Is it just me, or does the Game Boy Tower of Pokemon Stadium 2 distort and amplify the audio of the second-generation Pokemon games?

mike89

2006-10-17 01:13:21 pm

SEGA Junkie

I did two test runs of this, back when I was competing with Brown_Bomber.

The first was 5:14, with a L68 Feraligatr. It beat the Espeon for speed when I pumped it up to L70 with a couple of Rare Candies I held onto.

The second was 4:37, but I was two levels lower and that dropped me below the speed I required.

As I understand it, Brown_Bomber is two levels lower again.

Perhaps if you just pray for a speed DV of F at the start of the game, you'll get away with it at a lower level?

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-10-17 02:39:27 pm

2006-10-17 02:36:17 pm

Never give up!

We'll see. I'll have to learn the right values to look for when searching for the right DVs (the formula's out there somewhere, but I'll use it myself to figure them out), but I'll probably try that theory out on the second test run.

Judging from the sound of it, I might be able to deal with using just one X Speed. I note that Brown_Bomber uses two X Attack, one Dire Hit and one X Defend in that final battle. I wonder if it would be better, given this, to use three X Attack and one X Speed. (Or if we can beat Espeon's speed on DV alone, four X Attack.) Using an extra X Attack might make the Snorlax and Blastoise portions of the fight go faster (well, normally it would help against Blastoise.... but Brown_Bomber got lucky with a crit there). Then again, since we're preventing Reflect, more damage is dealt anyway...... I'll just worry about it when I get there.

By the way, I started the first test attempt earlier today, and I was at about the same time as Brown_Bomber was when he left New Bark for the second time, maybe a few seconds off but certainly not a whole minute off. (This is 11 minutes in terms of game time, for reference.) However, I wound up one level higher than he was at the time, due to getting a string of level 3 and level 4 Pokemon (and my insistence on fighting EVERYTHING that I ran across) and only one level 2 Pokemon (a Sentret, I believe). The only fight where I used Rage in a serious manner was the rival battle, and that's partly because my use of Leer was cancelled out by Growl. It did nothing but Tackle for the second and third rounds though, when I'd switched to Rage. I didn't allow it a fourth round.

Also: I technically lost a little time compared to Brown_Bomber's run up to the rival battle. I pretty much made up for it by beating the rival faster, though.

We'll see.  I'll have to learn the right values to look for when searching for the right DVs (the formula's out there somewhere, but I'll use it myself to figure them out), but I'll probably try that theory out on the second test run.

Judging from the sound of it, I might be able to deal with using just one X Speed.  I note that Brown_Bomber uses two X Attack, one Dire Hit and one X Defend in that final battle.  I wonder if it would be better, given this, to use three X Attack and one X Speed.  (Or if we can beat Espeon's speed on DV alone, four X Attack.)  Using an extra X Attack might make the Snorlax and Blastoise portions of the fight go faster (well, normally it would help against Blastoise.... but Brown_Bomber got lucky with a crit there).  Then again, since we're preventing Reflect, more damage is dealt anyway...... I'll just worry about it when I get there.

By the way, I started the first test attempt earlier today, and I was at about the same time as Brown_Bomber was when he left New Bark for the second time, maybe a few seconds off but certainly not a whole minute off.  (This is 11 minutes in terms of game time, for reference.)  However, I wound up one level higher than he was at the time, due to getting a string of level 3 and level 4 Pokemon (and my insistence on fighting EVERYTHING that I ran across) and only one level 2 Pokemon (a Sentret, I believe).  The only fight where I used Rage in a serious manner was the rival battle, and that's partly because my use of Leer was cancelled out by Growl.  It did nothing but Tackle for the second and third rounds though, when I'd switched to Rage.  I didn't allow it a fourth round.

Also: I technically lost a little time compared to Brown_Bomber's run up to the rival battle.  I pretty much made up for it by beating the rival faster, though.

Amazing Ampharos

2006-10-17 09:39:06 pm

No name what?

Also, Mud-Slap is stronger than Ember against a Rock/Ground type in general even if used by a fire type:

Mud-Slap base power: 20 * 2(super-effective) = 40 base hit + accuracy drop

Ember base power: 40 / 2(not very effective) * 1.5(STAB) = 30 base hit + 10% burn chance

The damage calculation gets interesting if you have more special attack than physical attack, and Geodude certainly has more physical defense than special defense. That makes Ember more powerful, but it isn't the base power of Ember vs Mud-Slap that does it. It's the fact that Geodude has base 100 defense and base 30 special defense.

AquaTiger

2006-10-18 09:49:32 pm

Never give up!

Okay, I haven't had much chance to work with the first test - and I might not get much tonight because I have pressing concerns elsewhere - I have more thoughts.

Mind you, I'm not sure this will even work, but I've thought about it and thought I'd mention it. Also note that this is only a concern for Pokemon Silver.

According to the Meevasin Pokedex (that's how I'll be referring to Mike Meevasin's Pokedex guide from here on out), while Sentret can learn Cut and Surf, Furret, its evolution, can also learn Strength. Unfortunately, I don't know just how much experience I'd have to divert to a Sentret through the third and fourth gyms (the only fights I'd consider drawing from) to get the Sentret to the evolution point (level 15). (Also assume for this scenario that Sentret is level 2.)

If anyone has an idea how much it'd take, I'd like to hear it. Anyway, I'm not going to try catching Sudowoodo. Taking that fact into account, here's all my known options for getting a Strength-capable Pokemon in Silver by the time I need it without sacrificing a move slot for my starter:
-Catching a Geodude
-Evolving a Sentret
-Catching a Bellsprout and swapping for Onix in Violet City
-Catching an Ekans (I JUST found this one out from the Meevasin Pokedex)
-Catching a Union Cave Onix
-Dealing with the Bug Catching Contest and catching a Pinsir
-Catching a Magmar in the Burned Tower
-Catching a Raticate on Route 38 or 39 (something of a surprise to me too)
-Catching a Tauros as above (funny thing: Tauros can also Surf)
-Catching a Miltank on the same routes as Raticate and Tauros (Miltank can also Surf)
-Catching a Snubbull as above (good luck finding one though)
-Getting Shuckle in Cianwood (it's free, too)

I was looking up from the Meevasin Pokedex as I compiled the list, so I'm amazed there's a dozen other options out there for getting a Strength user.

So far, I would say the Magmar, the Pinsir, and either option for Onix are definitely out. Snubbull's out too. I'm currently thinking either Ekans, Raticate, or - if I want to take capture times out of the picture somewhat - Shuckle will be my choice for the Strength user.

Okay, I haven't had much chance to work with the first test - and I might not get much tonight because I have pressing concerns elsewhere - I have more thoughts.

Mind you, I'm not sure this will even work, but I've thought about it and thought I'd mention it.  Also note that this is only a concern for Pokemon Silver.

According to the Meevasin Pokedex (that's how I'll be referring to Mike Meevasin's Pokedex guide from here on out), while Sentret can learn Cut and Surf, Furret, its evolution, can also learn Strength.  Unfortunately, I don't know just how much experience I'd have to divert to a Sentret through the third and fourth gyms (the only fights I'd consider drawing from) to get the Sentret to the evolution point (level 15).  (Also assume for this scenario that Sentret is level 2.)

If anyone has an idea how much it'd take, I'd like to hear it.  Anyway, I'm not going to try catching Sudowoodo.  Taking that fact into account, here's all my known options for getting a Strength-capable Pokemon in Silver by the time I need it without sacrificing a move slot for my starter:
-Catching a Geodude
-Evolving a Sentret
-Catching a Bellsprout and swapping for Onix in Violet City
-Catching an Ekans (I JUST found this one out from the Meevasin Pokedex)
-Catching a Union Cave Onix
-Dealing with the Bug Catching Contest and catching a Pinsir
-Catching a Magmar in the Burned Tower
-Catching a Raticate on Route 38 or 39 (something of a surprise to me too)
-Catching a Tauros as above (funny thing: Tauros can also Surf)
-Catching a Miltank on the same routes as Raticate and Tauros (Miltank can also Surf)
-Catching a Snubbull as above (good luck finding one though)
-Getting Shuckle in Cianwood (it's free, too)

I was looking up from the Meevasin Pokedex as I compiled the list, so I'm amazed there's a dozen other options out there for getting a Strength user.

So far, I would say the Magmar, the Pinsir, and either option for Onix are definitely out.  Snubbull's out too.  I'm currently thinking either Ekans, Raticate, or - if I want to take capture times out of the picture somewhat - Shuckle will be my choice for the Strength user.

DTaeKim

2006-10-18 10:23:52 pm

Can't you just use the Red Gyarados as an HM slave? It can learn Strength, Whirlpool, Waterfall, and Surf.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-10-18 10:36:39 pm

2006-10-18 10:27:37 pm

Never give up!

Far as I'm concerned, that's way too late.

Last I checked, I need Surf AND Strength before that point. Plus I need to have Strength without using up any of Totodile's move slots, as by the time I can make him forget (I believe it's the town with the Dragon gym), I'll have probably already gotten Return and I want to put it to use ASAP without sacrificing the more worthwhile moves I already have (Ice Punch for sure - I'll see what other moves are good in my list by that time). (Far as Surf, I can get away with having Totodile use it if it turns out to be fastest, because Totodile and its evolutions get STAB - I assume that stands for "Same Type Attack Bonus" as that's fairly close to its effect - on Surf, and I also hear it is a guaranteed hit with unmodified Accuracy.) As far as Waterfall and Whirlpool, I've already planned to have a Poliwag use both.

Also consider Red Gyarados's level - the odds of catching a level 30 Pokemon without losing considerable time are, realisitically speaking, a bit too low. Timewise, I always thought it was faster to go deal with Cianwood and Olivine's gyms first (I don't even know if you can go after the Red Gyarados before then). If you can prove getting the Red Gyarados is faster, I might have a look.

Far as I'm concerned, that's way too late.

Last I checked, I need Surf AND Strength before that point.  Plus I need to have Strength without using up any of Totodile's move slots, as by the time I can make him forget (I believe it's the town with the Dragon gym), I'll have probably already gotten Return and I want to put it to use ASAP without sacrificing the more worthwhile moves I already have (Ice Punch for sure - I'll see what other moves are good in my list by that time).  (Far as Surf, I can get away with having Totodile use it if it turns out to be fastest, because Totodile and its evolutions get STAB - I assume that stands for "Same Type Attack Bonus" as that's fairly close to its effect - on Surf, and I also hear it is a guaranteed hit with unmodified Accuracy.)  As far as Waterfall and Whirlpool, I've already planned to have a Poliwag use both.

Also consider Red Gyarados's level - the odds of catching a level 30 Pokemon without losing considerable time are, realisitically speaking, a bit too low.  Timewise, I always thought it was faster to go deal with Cianwood and Olivine's gyms first (I don't even know if you can go after the Red Gyarados before then).  If you can prove getting the Red Gyarados is faster, I might have a look.

DTaeKim

2006-10-19 02:06:42 am

I would think going to Mahogany first is faster (if that's Pryce's Gym). You also get some additional levels to tackle the two gyms.

DRybes

2006-10-26 08:11:58 am

O Zlda?

wow. you completely gave up on a SS you planned for so long, in the middle of one post. what gives?

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-10-26 12:40:05 pm

2006-10-26 12:39:31 pm

Never give up!

It's because I need to find out whether it's even possible. (Any forced exiting to the main menu right after Johto means it's not possible. However, I am pretty sure you can go from the end of the credits right to the second phase of the game without going to the menu first.)

If I find it is possible, I'll go pick it up again.

Also, the old plan might have had to be scrapped anyway, as I need to find out just how much truth there is to mike89's claim that you CAN get away with using just one Pokemon even in an SS. I'm still fairly convinced it's not true.

Even if it's not true, though, I'm probably going to refine the plan somewhat.

Yoshi348

2006-10-26 08:37:15 pm

dinosaur from the past

Quote:

(Any forced exiting to the main menu right after Johto means it's not possible.)

The DKC2 100% run has a forced exit to the main menu and it's still listed as a SS.

DRybes

2006-10-27 04:57:50 am

O Zlda?

yeah. Yoshi's Island works the same way, single segment even with a hard reset. I didn't know at first.

It's whatever Radix decides for the game and type of run, really.

It just seemed like you abruptly abandoned the idea after many pages of planning. Don't give up till the vedict is in Smiley

rock1644

2006-10-27 05:57:27 am

yes, a man carrying a gimp

With the way the ending is in some games, you have to reset the system to finish it up.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2006-10-27 12:39:29 pm

2006-10-27 12:36:48 pm

Never give up!

Okay, okay.

Instead of completely scrapping the idea of a single-segment run, I'm just going to put it on hold until I can reasonably expect to have time to try such a run.

Probably the earliest I'd try anything is late November or some point in December.

And like I said, my pages-long plan may not be the most worthwhile anyway, as I need to figure out whether mike89's plan can be reasonably done by a console player. If it can be done and the difficulty of it isn't through the roof, I have to scrap the old pages-long plan.

Yoshi348

2006-10-27 08:55:07 pm

dinosaur from the past

Yeah it's definitely worth figuring out which plan is better. I have a feeling only using one might not be too bad, although if you can grap a high level guy near the end with the master ball, like Zapdos in RBY, it's worth considering.

ForteGS

2006-10-27 09:51:49 pm

Bring me the flaming voodoo canonball!

IF your are doing Single Segment, use the Master Ball on the LV70 Ho-oh (Lugia is LV40).

Segmented, either Ho-oh or using Master Ball on Raikou and training him.

Raikou at a decent level owns many people:
Mahogany Town Leader Pryce (electric attacks)
Elite 4 Phoebe (the psychic person => Crunch+Electric attacks)
Saffron City Leader Sabrina (Crunch)
Cerulean City Leader Misty (Electric atacks)

Red (aka Ash):
Blastoise+Charizard = Electric Attacks
Espeon = Crunch

he alone would take down 3 of Red's pokemon.

Ho-oh:
Celedon City Leader Erika (if you get the feather in pewter first)(Fire/Flying attacks)

Red
- Venussaur (fire/flying atacks)
- and maybe Snorlax+Pikachu (Ancientpower)

I would chose Raikou if you were doing segmented, since single segment could take hours/days before you encounter him.

DTaeKim

2006-10-28 12:53:07 am

Why bother catching any of the legendaries? Catching the three legendary beasts will take too much time, since it's dumb luck to see them for the first time.

Ho-Oh can't be caught until you enter Pewter City and talk to the old man. Then you must return to the tower to catch Ho-Oh. IMO, a sufficiently leveled starter should be able to pull it off.

I was toying with the idea of a Perish Song Pokemon, but I have no idea how the AI reacts to Perish Song. Can anyone find out?

DRybes

Edit history:

DRybes: 2006-10-28 04:04:13 am

2006-10-28 04:02:32 am

O Zlda?

how do you plan on pulling off Perish Song? you only learn it at a high level with a handful of pokemon, unless you want to chance running into a misdreavus in mt. silver. also, it takes three turns to work, during which you're going to be taking a high level of damage, etc.

course it's been a long time since i played this game, i'm probably forgetting something.

i also don't remember at what point in the progress of your run that you get a master ball. it's a dumb idea, but if you get it early enough in the game (or you have sufficent levels/items), you might want to hope on encountering one of the 3 random legendary pokemon in the course of gameplay as part of your strategy. with the alternative being to get ho-oh if you're unsuccessful within a certain window. if you have a master ball and you run into one at a good time... why not. it should certainly be something to be prepared for if it happens unexpectedly in your run, as it could end up being a timesaver.

DTaeKim

Edit history:

DTaeKim: 2006-10-28 05:06:01 am

2006-10-28 05:04:56 am

The Master Ball can only be obtained by the Lottery in Goldenrod City, IIRC.

Since the OHKO strategy I used in Yellow doesn't work anymore, it seems that the only way to finish a battle quickly is to utilize super-effective moves like in the Red run.

AquaTiger

2006-10-28 05:11:10 am

Never give up!

You can get ONE Master Ball from Prof. Elm after you get all the Johto badges, I think.

You use that wrong, though, your only other option is indeed the lottery.

Yoshi348

Edit history:

Yoshi348: 2006-10-28 06:08:57 am

2006-10-28 06:07:53 am

dinosaur from the past

Quote:

how do you plan on pulling off Perish Song? you only learn it at a high level with a handful of pokemon, unless you want to chance running into a misdreavus in mt. silver. also, it takes three turns to work, during which you're going to be taking a high level of damage, etc.

/me looks it up

Lapras gets it at 29, and can be found in Union Cave... and that's it for sub-level 35. And it only has 5 PP. The computer probably wouldn't switch out, though. The computer's an idiot.

But yeah, forget it.

DRybes

Edit history:

DRybes: 2006-10-28 06:27:05 am

2006-10-28 06:24:31 am

O Zlda?

It's not impossible in a speed run, just impractical in a speed run. Everything you need that isn't actually required to progress further in the game (completion of dungeons, caves, and buildings) is a waste of time, theoretically. Even searching for a particular pokemon you want at the start of the game (like pidgey), or playing any trainer you can avoid, is technically a waste of time. You need to accept some of these things, so you should be looking to cut overall run time, instead of worrying about losses in one area. Unless you run into it as you're walking normally through an area, I wouldn't consider it a usable strategy unless it helps big time later on. Doesn't seem like that much of an asset :/

The odds of running into one of the 3 random monsters (they're level 50 right?) at some point in a run seem fairly high... it's a question of how much grass you walk through once you have a master ball (i don't know how hard they are to catch... maybe an ultra is sufficient). you can probably modify your walking route slightly after you get the master ball, so that you step over more grass (which is often a faster route than avoiding the grass). use repel and as long as your starter is under lvl 50 (or whatever the legendaries are) you can increase your odds of running into it.

i don't know how much it would benefit you though. if you simply want some higher level monsters for a better chance at beating gary/ash, you can catch a few in mt. silver (provided you've dropped a few members off in the PC beforehand).

It's not impossible in a speed run, just impractical in a speed run. Everything you need that isn't actually required to progress further in the game (completion of dungeons, caves, and buildings) is a waste of time, theoretically. Even searching for a particular pokemon you want at the start of the game (like pidgey), or playing any trainer you can avoid, is technically a waste of time. You need to accept some of these things, so you should be looking to cut overall run time, instead of worrying about losses in one area. Unless you run into it as you're walking normally through an area, I wouldn't consider it a usable strategy unless it helps big time later on. Doesn't seem like that much of an asset :/

The odds of running into one of the 3 random monsters (they're level 50 right?) at some point in a run seem fairly high... it's a question of how much grass you walk through once you have a master ball (i don't know how hard they are to catch... maybe an ultra is sufficient). you can probably modify your walking route slightly after you get the master ball, so that you step over more grass (which is often a faster route than avoiding the grass). use repel and as long as your starter is under lvl 50 (or whatever the legendaries are) you can increase your odds of running into it.

i don't know how much it would benefit you though. if you simply want some higher level monsters for a better chance at beating gary/ash, you can catch a few in mt. silver (provided you've dropped a few members off in the PC beforehand).

Amazing Ampharos

2006-10-28 06:37:41 am

I'm pretty sure the 3 beasts are level 40.

I think the AI usually switches out of Perish Song on the last turn if it can. You would have to trap it somehow, be it Whirlpool or Mean Look or whatever. I have a very strong inclination that it won't be worth it.