Phantasy Star II (Good Stuff Happening, See Page 2!)

Emptyeye

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Emptyeye: 2014-10-11 09:42:05 pm

Emptyeye: 2007-03-19 02:58:13 am

2006-11-16 12:46:25 am

Talk to the Hand

Yeah. I'm curious as to whether there would be an audience for this. In short, I think it'd be hard, but doable. Note that this is nowhere near being ready to record (I haven't even played the game in quite awhile), I'm mainly just seeing if an attempt at this would be worth my while.

This would be segmented, on the Phantasy Star Collection on the GBA.

Anyone?

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spineshark

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spineshark: 2006-11-16 01:46:35 am

2006-11-16 01:45:40 am

新世紀進歩的羽扇子音楽

O dear god.

This does not sound like a run for mere mortals. Tongue

I thought about this for a second when I bought my cart and laughed.

I'd watch it; it'd be boring as hell, and I can't imagine what you'd have to do (seriously I went through like every dungeon four times partly because I was lost and partly because I needed the exp =/), but...it would still be awesome. I totally can't imagine a harder RPG run than this.

stanski

2006-11-16 02:09:27 am

wise fwom yo gwave

This game confused the hell out of me. Supposedly, I was supposed to like it according to everyone else, but I don't find being lost as hell all the time fun. If you could do a run of this, it would be one rpg that I haven't beaten that I would actually watch (I refuse to use strategy guides for games, and I got too frustrated with the first few caves to keep going).

spineshark

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spineshark: 2006-11-16 02:20:28 am

2006-11-16 02:18:17 am

新世紀進歩的羽扇子音楽

Well, the original Genesis release came with maps and maybe some other stuff, so I wouldn't be ashamed to use them (I didn't [and by that I mean I have only the cart and even though I knew where to find maps I didn't], since I to a certain extent like being lost/stuck as long as it's not humiliating :P).

Have you done any planning at all yet? Like where you can level? I don't remember escapes working very well when I was playing either...

Emptyeye

2006-11-16 02:41:41 am

Talk to the Hand

Well, like I said, I think it'd definitely be hard, but not impossible. Especially once I swipe the Visiphone and if I really feel like it can (probably) effectively pseudo-TAS the game by saving after every step. I wouldn't go that far, obviously, as that would indeed make for a very boring video, but getting the Visiphone in my possession should lessen my pain considerably.

I haven't really thought a strategy through except in the most general sense. Leveling will be required, though more early game than late (I don't remember having to actively stop and build levels much at all past Climatrol, although I was also fighting most battles. I ended the game with levels in the high 20s with a Rolf/Rudo/Anna/Amy party). I know the "money" spell against bosses and probably any enemies I decide to fight is going to be Deban, either cast by Amy if she's in the party or via Snow Crown if she's not (If you don't know, whatever the various descriptions of it you read, the practical effect is that it halves the damage enemies do to your party). There are also some items later in the game that cast Gires in battle, which will be a nice way to heal up.

Yeah, the dungeons are a pain (They're hard even with maps of where to go), but obviously by the time I'm ready to run the game, I'll be long past the point of getting lost in the dungeons.

Well, like I said, I think it'd definitely be hard, but not impossible. Especially once I swipe the Visiphone and if I really feel like it can (probably) effectively pseudo-TAS the game by saving after every step. I wouldn't go that far, obviously, as that would indeed make for a very boring video, but getting the Visiphone in my possession should lessen my pain considerably.

I haven't really thought a strategy through except in the most general sense. Leveling will be required, though more early game than late (I don't remember having to actively stop and build levels much at all past Climatrol, although I was also fighting most battles. I ended the game with levels in the high 20s with a Rolf/Rudo/Anna/Amy party). I know the "money" spell against bosses and probably any enemies I decide to fight is going to be Deban, either cast by Amy if she's in the party or via Snow Crown if she's not (If you don't know, whatever the various descriptions of it you read, the practical effect is that it halves the damage enemies do to your party). There are also some items later in the game that cast Gires in battle, which will be a nice way to heal up.

Yeah, the dungeons are a pain (They're hard even with maps of where to go), but obviously by the time I'm ready to run the game, I'll be long past the point of getting lost in the dungeons.

getter77

2006-11-16 03:15:55 am

100% runs=great to watch

Definitely be a hella unexpected 1st entry inot the classic PS series....but damn if this wouldn't be a hoot to watch.

Like many others, I too was beaten by this game....beaten and lost.

Go for it unless ya got other run projects, perhaps less time consuming/insane, in the pipeline as well.

Breakdown

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Breakdown: 2006-11-16 09:19:04 am

2006-11-16 09:16:49 am

Haters gonna hate

I was contemplating doing a run for this game, but would probably have never gotten to it as RPG runs don't really appeal to me. However, this is probably my favorite Phantasy Star game, and I'm better versed in it than most. I think I can be of much help to you.

First and foremost, I don't think you'll need to do much leveling at all due to a very exploitable glitch. If you bring up the status bar every step you take, you don't get any random encounters, meaning the only battles you absolutely have to fight are Neifirst, the Army Eyes, Dark Force, and Mother Brain, though some leveling would obviously be required to win those fights. This will be boring as hell to do and watch, but it is definitely the fastest way to do things. In fact, for speed I'd recommend using this tactic and just charging through the first stages of the game without buying any equipment or getting new party members. Just cruise through the dungeons and hit up any chests with decent money or good sellables all the way up to Piata. Then go back and get everybody (make sure you stop briefly in each town to trigger everybody). You'd probably need to use Nei's initial Res charges to get through the damage squares in the Biosystems Lab, but other than that there's no roadblocks to this.

Once you have everybody you'll need to think about who'll you be using. You'll probably want to level Shir to 10 for a Visiphone (I don't think she can get one earlier), though it would probably be faster, and tons harder, to get by without since it'd be one less person to level. For Neifirst you'll probably want a team of Rolf, Nei, Rudo, and Amy. As you mentioned before, Deban is incredibly helpful and will let you take her on at lower levels, though you could powerlevel early and put in someone like Anna and pound her face in. For the endgame I'd definitely recommend Rolf, Rudo, Anna, and Kain for pure offense against the final bosses. Kain's Nagaj works on all the enemies in the final dungeon, though you should only be fighting the bosses, making him the best fourth character pick.

Once you have everybody you can sell the stuff you've found and have Shir steal things from the stores to equip yourself (I know she can steal Laser Knives and one of Rudo's better guns). Then start leveling people. Start around the first town but push onward quickly (I imagine this stretch will be split into a lot of segments). Eventually you'll want to be fighting Slugmesses (the blue jelly things that can reproduce). They're pretty easy to kill once you have the fight under control, are worth lots of exp, and you can get exp and meseta for 255 per fight (any more then the in game counter resets to 1). Get the characters you'll be using to respectable strength for Neifirst and pick another leveling spot for later (probably Noah), or just power level on those and then blow through the rest of the game. I'm not entirely sure which would be faster.

I hope all that made sense. Optimizing all that will be the tricky part, but I think it will challenge your patience more than your ability as a gamer. Any questions I'll be happy to answer if I can.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, this game really should be categorized in two different ways, with the no encounters glitch and without. If you wanted to do a run without it, it would require much more planning, and I'd be glad to help there too.

I was contemplating doing a run for this game, but would probably have never gotten to it as RPG runs don't really appeal to me.  However, this is probably my favorite Phantasy Star game, and I'm better versed in it than most.  I think I can be of much help to you.

First and foremost, I don't think you'll need to do much leveling at all due to a very exploitable glitch.  If you bring up the status bar every step you take, you don't get any random encounters, meaning the only battles you absolutely have to fight are Neifirst, the Army Eyes, Dark Force, and Mother Brain, though some leveling would obviously be required to win those fights.  This will be boring as hell to do and watch, but it is definitely the fastest way to do things.  In fact, for speed I'd recommend using this tactic and just charging through the first stages of the game without buying any equipment or getting new party members.  Just cruise through the dungeons and hit up any chests with decent money or good sellables all the way up to Piata.  Then go back and get everybody (make sure you stop briefly in each town to trigger everybody).  You'd probably need to use Nei's initial Res charges to get through the damage squares in the Biosystems Lab, but other than that there's no roadblocks to this.

Once you have everybody you'll need to think about who'll you be using.  You'll probably want to level Shir to 10 for a Visiphone (I don't think she can get one earlier), though it would probably be faster, and tons harder, to get by without since it'd be one less person to level.  For Neifirst you'll probably want a team of Rolf, Nei, Rudo, and Amy.  As you mentioned before, Deban is incredibly helpful and will let you take her on at lower levels, though you could powerlevel early and put in someone like Anna and pound her face in.  For the endgame I'd definitely recommend Rolf, Rudo, Anna, and Kain for pure offense against the final bosses.  Kain's Nagaj works on all the enemies in the final dungeon, though you should only be fighting the bosses, making him the best fourth character pick.

Once you have everybody you can sell the stuff you've found and have Shir steal things from the stores to equip yourself (I know she can steal Laser Knives and one of Rudo's better guns).  Then start leveling people.  Start around the first town but push onward quickly (I imagine this stretch will be split into a lot of segments).  Eventually you'll want to be fighting Slugmesses (the blue jelly things that can reproduce).  They're pretty easy to kill once you have the fight under control, are worth lots of exp, and you can get exp and meseta for 255 per fight (any more then the in game counter resets to 1).  Get the characters you'll be using to respectable strength for Neifirst and pick another leveling spot for later (probably Noah), or just power level on those and then blow through the rest of the game.  I'm not entirely sure which would be faster.

I hope all that made sense.  Optimizing all that will be the tricky part, but I think it will challenge your patience more than your ability as a gamer.  Any questions I'll be happy to answer if I can.

EDIT:  Now that I think about it, this game really should be categorized in two different ways, with the no encounters glitch and without.  If you wanted to do a run without it, it would require much more planning, and I'd be glad to help there too.

Emptyeye

Edit history:

Emptyeye: 2006-11-17 01:36:36 am

2006-11-16 11:25:38 pm

Talk to the Hand

Yeah, I agree about possibly categorizing the runs seperately.

I think I remember reading about that glitch too, actually, though I never tried it myself. I don't remember if it actually worked or not. That's pretty interesting; if the glitch works as you say, I theoretically don't even need the Visiphone, which could cut out some leveling time, like you said. It might be best to try grabbing it anyway, though..I'll ave to see.

Stuff that I'll do regardless of whether I try this with or without glitch:
From reading FAQs, Shir's stealing has nothing to do with level, so what I figure I can do there is get her out of the house, and go into a shop where I can steal something cool (The big things would be the Laser Knives and Laser Shot from the Weapon Store, like you said, and Trimate and Star Mists from the Item Store). If I get a cool item on the first try, save; if not, reset and try again. This will lead to a lot of segments that are just "Shir steals an item", but I figure if I'm going to segment this, I may as well take close to full advantage of it.

For pre-Neifirst, I'll probably go with the party you mentioned, for obvious reasons (Deban, plus Rudo's power). Post-Neifirst, I have a couple options, all of them revolving around Rolf/Rudo/Kain. One is Anna, as you said. Another could actually be Hugh (On this note, if Wikipedia is to be trusted, Mother Brain is actually classified as mechanical and thus vulnerable to Kain's spells), depending on if Dark Force qualifies as a living being (And thus vulnerable to his spells) according to the game or not. Again if Wikipedia is to be trusted, Shir is actually the quickest character in the game (Though my levels are probably going to be low enough that anything I fight is going first anyway), so I thought of bringing her along as a pseudo-healer, using the various items to buff my party up.

For levelling, I agree that Slugmesses are probably the way to go early game, and haven't thought much about what I'll be doing after Neifirst. I'll figure something out eventually, though.

I think that's everything for now. Thanks for the encouragement everyone..just to be clear, this isn't something I'll have banged out in a week, or a month or what-have-you; it's going to take me awhile, to be sure. But I hope to have something done eventually.

EDIT: At least on the GBA version, while pressing A on the overworld greatly decreases the odds of you getting into a battle on your next step, it does NOT entirely eliminate the possibility. This seems consistent with some long-repressed memory about the Genesis version as well. This changes things, I think.

Yeah, I agree about possibly categorizing the runs seperately.

I think I remember reading about that glitch too, actually, though I never tried it myself. I don't remember if it actually worked or not. That's pretty interesting; if the glitch works as you say, I theoretically don't even need the Visiphone, which could cut out some leveling time, like you said. It might be best to try grabbing it anyway, though..I'll ave to see.

Stuff that I'll do regardless of whether I try this with or without glitch:
From reading FAQs, Shir's stealing has nothing to do with level, so what I figure I can do there is get her out of the house, and go into a shop where I can steal something cool (The big things would be the Laser Knives and Laser Shot from the Weapon Store, like you said, and Trimate and Star Mists from the Item Store). If I get a cool item on the first try, save; if not, reset and try again. This will lead to a lot of segments that are just "Shir steals an item", but I figure if I'm going to segment this, I may as well take close to full advantage of it.

For pre-Neifirst, I'll probably go with the party you mentioned, for obvious reasons (Deban, plus Rudo's power). Post-Neifirst, I have a couple options, all of them revolving around Rolf/Rudo/Kain. One is Anna, as you said. Another could actually be Hugh (On this note, if Wikipedia is to be trusted, Mother Brain is actually classified as mechanical and thus vulnerable to Kain's spells), depending on if Dark Force qualifies as a living being (And thus vulnerable to his spells) according to the game or not. Again if Wikipedia is to be trusted, Shir is actually the quickest character in the game (Though my levels are probably going to be low enough that anything I fight is going first anyway), so I thought of bringing her along as a pseudo-healer, using the various items to buff my party up.

For levelling, I agree that Slugmesses are probably the way to go early game, and haven't thought much about what I'll be doing after Neifirst. I'll figure something out eventually, though.

I think that's everything for now. Thanks for the encouragement everyone..just to be clear, this isn't something I'll have banged out in a week, or a month or what-have-you; it's going to take me awhile, to be sure. But I hope to have something done eventually.

EDIT: At least on the GBA version, while pressing A on the overworld greatly decreases the odds of you getting into a battle on your next step, it does NOT entirely eliminate the possibility. This seems consistent with some long-repressed memory about the Genesis version as well. This changes things, I think.

Emptyeye

2006-11-19 11:35:56 pm

Talk to the Hand

Okay, so I decided I'm going to play this straight, IE not pushing A every step. In "practice" if we can call it that, I'm past Shure at Level 4. I decided that leveling up to 4 (With just Rolf and Nei) to get Ryuka (Thus letting me teleport back to Paseo after I do everything that has to be done in Shure) would both elimintate the trek back and give me a pretty good shot at surviving Shure even if I try and run from everything. My general strategy is to try running from a given battle twice, and just start fighting on the third round if I haven't escaped yet.

Also, before going to Shure, I buy two Escapipes and a bunch of Monomate. I use one Escapipe after I get the Small Key and Letter (Going through the first floor again is far easier, and probably quicker, than backtracking through the fourth and third floors), go back in, and use the second after I get the Dynamite from the treasures.

I haven't decided whether to seperate the leveling and Shure into their own segments or attempt it as one yet. That'll come later, once I've gotten a semi-solid strategy down for the rest of the game.

Okay, so I decided I'm going to play this straight, IE not pushing A every step. In "practice" if we can call it that, I'm past Shure at Level 4. I decided that leveling up to 4 (With just Rolf and Nei) to get Ryuka (Thus letting me teleport back to Paseo after I do everything that has to be done in Shure) would both elimintate the trek back and give me a pretty good shot at surviving Shure even if I try and run from everything. My general strategy is to try running from a given battle twice, and just start fighting on the third round if I haven't escaped yet.

Also, before going to Shure, I buy two Escapipes and a bunch of Monomate. I use one Escapipe after I get the Small Key and Letter (Going through the first floor again is far easier, and probably quicker, than backtracking through the fourth and third floors), go back in, and use the second after I get the Dynamite from the treasures.

I haven't decided whether to seperate the leveling and Shure into their own segments or attempt it as one yet. That'll come later, once I've gotten a semi-solid strategy down for the rest of the game.

Breakdown

2006-11-21 08:35:28 am

Haters gonna hate

I must admit, while it probably will be slower, I like that you're taking the game on regularly. It'll make it that much more impressive to watch.

Definitely split up leveling and dungeon crawling into seperate segments, it'd make it that much easier to optimize each, plus at level 4 you're going to need a lot of luck to get through Shure.

I think you should probably get Rudo before heading to the dungeon. You'll be using him all game and it would be good to get him started as soon as possible. It might also be to your benefit to kill off Nei early and just leave her dead until Neifirst. She is pretty useful in a regular game, but if you intend to do as much running as possible she'll only suck up EXP in the early game when you do actually fight, and you can't take her to the endgame. You'd probably be better served by having characters you're going to use the whole getting as much EXP as possible. The time it'll take to steal a Moon Dew will be much less than the time it would add leveling people with her. You might want to hold off on that until you get Amy, but I would recommend doing it fairly early on.

I must admit, while it probably will be slower, I like that you're taking the game on regularly.  It'll make it that much more impressive to watch.

Definitely split up leveling and dungeon crawling into seperate segments, it'd make it that much easier to optimize each, plus at level 4 you're going to need a lot of luck to get through Shure.

I think you should probably get Rudo before heading to the dungeon.  You'll be using him all game and it would be good to get him started as soon as possible.  It might also be to your benefit to kill off Nei early and just leave her dead until Neifirst.  She is pretty useful in a regular game, but if you intend to do as much running as possible she'll only suck up EXP in the early game when you do actually fight, and you can't take her to the endgame.  You'd probably be better served by having characters you're going to use the whole getting as much EXP as possible.  The time it'll take to steal a Moon Dew will be much less than the time it would add leveling people with her.  You might want to hold off on that until you get Amy, but I would recommend doing it fairly early on.

Emptyeye

2006-11-22 03:40:02 am

Talk to the Hand

Quote:

I must admit, while it probably will be slower, I like that you're taking the game on regularly. It'll make it that much more impressive to watch.

Good to know! I'll keep playing through it for now and hope to ultimately end up with an okay strategy for an actual to-be-recorded run.

Quote:

Definitely split up leveling and dungeon crawling into seperate segments, it'd make it that much easier to optimize each, plus at level 4 you're going to need a lot of luck to get through Shure.

I actually didn't find it too difficult to get through Shure at level 4, though it did take me two tries. Right now, the Biosystems Lab at level 6 seems to be my first major obstacle; I may have to build up a bit more for this (on the other hand, thanks to Blasters, all the leveling in the world may not help me). In general, I do think the dungeons, especially early-game, are basically going to boil down to luck, more precisely avoiding ambushes or "bad"enemies (Froggys is Shure, Blasters in the Biosystems Lab), though I'm not sure precisely how lucky I'll have to get.

Quote:

I think you should probably get Rudo before heading to the dungeon. You'll be using him all game and it would be good to get him started as soon as possible. It might also be to your benefit to kill off Nei early and just leave her dead until Neifirst. She is pretty useful in a regular game, but if you intend to do as much running as possible she'll only suck up EXP in the early game when you do actually fight, and you can't take her to the endgame. You'd probably be better served by having characters you're going to use the whole getting as much EXP as possible. The time it'll take to steal a Moon Dew will be much less than the time it would add leveling people with her. You might want to hold off on that until you get Amy, but I would recommend doing it fairly early on.

I agree about getting Rudo before going to Shure, both to get him experience and to serve as a third target for enemies. As for killing off Nei, this is an interesting strategy that I wouldn't have thought of. The problem I have with it is that, at least in the first couple dungeons, she seems to be my primary damage dealer in the times when I do have to fight, either to build levels or because my attempts at running were unsuccessful.

[quote]I must admit, while it probably will be slower, I like that you're taking the game on regularly.  It'll make it that much more impressive to watch.[/quote]

Good to know! I'll keep playing through it for now and hope to ultimately end up with an okay strategy for an actual to-be-recorded run.

[quote]Definitely split up leveling and dungeon crawling into seperate segments, it'd make it that much easier to optimize each, plus at level 4 you're going to need a lot of luck to get through Shure.[/quote]

I actually didn't find it too difficult to get through Shure at level 4, though it did take me two tries. Right now, the Biosystems Lab at level 6 seems to be my first major obstacle; I may have to build up a bit more for this (on the other hand, thanks to Blasters, all the leveling in the world may not help me). In general, I do think the dungeons, especially early-game, are basically going to boil down to luck, more precisely avoiding ambushes or "bad"enemies (Froggys is Shure, Blasters in the Biosystems Lab), though I'm not sure precisely how lucky I'll have to get.

[quote]I think you should probably get Rudo before heading to the dungeon.  You'll be using him all game and it would be good to get him started as soon as possible.  It might also be to your benefit to kill off Nei early and just leave her dead until Neifirst.  She is pretty useful in a regular game, but if you intend to do as much running as possible she'll only suck up EXP in the early game when you do actually fight, and you can't take her to the endgame.  You'd probably be better served by having characters you're going to use the whole getting as much EXP as possible.  The time it'll take to steal a Moon Dew will be much less than the time it would add leveling people with her.  You might want to hold off on that until you get Amy, but I would recommend doing it fairly early on.[/quote]

I agree about getting Rudo before going to Shure, both to get him experience and to serve as a third target for enemies. As for killing off Nei, this is an interesting strategy that I wouldn't have thought of. The problem I have with it is that, at least in the first couple dungeons, she seems to be my primary damage dealer in the times when I do have to fight, either to build levels or because my attempts at running were unsuccessful.

Breakdown

2006-11-22 09:30:19 am

Haters gonna hate

Quote:

I actually didn't find it too difficult to get through Shure at level 4. . .

That surprises me, of course I've always powerleveled and bought at least close to the best gear beforehand in the past, so I wouldn't really know.

Quote:

Right now, the Biosystems Lab at level 6 seems to be my first major obstacle; I may have to build up a bit more for this (on the other hand, thanks to Blasters, all the leveling in the world may not help me). In general, I do think the dungeons, especially early-game, are basically going to boil down to luck, more precisely avoiding ambushes or "bad"enemies (Froggys is Shure, Blasters in the Biosystems Lab), though I'm not sure precisely how lucky I'll have to get.

You're already through Nido? Blasters appear there too, but only on top floor and fairly rarely. If that's where you're anticipating trouble, I wouldn't worry, a little luck will see you to Tiem. The Biosystems Lab, however, will be a bitch no doubt. There's very little in the way of easy encounters there, and it's pretty long. You will probably still need Nei for the early goings as you would definitely want four bodies there to maximize your potential for survival, probably in Roron too. After that you have the Jet Scooter and all the characters, and that would probably be the optimal time to kill Nei off (Sak or Nasak will make that easy, and make your first Slugmess fight that much easier to control) and do whatever leveling you plan to pre-Climatrol.

[quote]

I actually didn't find it too difficult to get through Shure at level 4. . .[/quote]

That surprises me, of course I've always powerleveled and bought at least close to the best gear beforehand in the past, so I wouldn't really know.

[quote]Right now, the Biosystems Lab at level 6 seems to be my first major obstacle; I may have to build up a bit more for this (on the other hand, thanks to Blasters, all the leveling in the world may not help me). In general, I do think the dungeons, especially early-game, are basically going to boil down to luck, more precisely avoiding ambushes or "bad"enemies (Froggys is Shure, Blasters in the Biosystems Lab), though I'm not sure precisely how lucky I'll have to get.[/quote]

You're already through Nido?  Blasters appear there too, but only on top floor and fairly rarely.  If that's where you're anticipating trouble, I wouldn't worry, a little luck will see you to Tiem.  The Biosystems Lab, however, will be a bitch no doubt.  There's very little in the way of easy encounters there, and it's pretty long.  You will probably still need Nei for the early goings as you would definitely want four bodies there to maximize your potential for survival, probably in Roron too.  After that you have the Jet Scooter and all the characters, and that would probably be the optimal time to kill Nei off (Sak or Nasak will make that easy, and make your first Slugmess fight that much easier to control) and do whatever leveling you plan to pre-Climatrol.

Emptyeye

Edit history:

Emptyeye: 2006-11-23 06:24:14 pm

2006-11-22 11:15:35 pm

Talk to the Hand

Quote:

That surprises me, of course I've always powerleveled and bought at least close to the best gear beforehand in the past, so I wouldn't really know.

Well, I'll grant that this was a minimum possible sample size of one practice run (And ti did take two attempts; I ran into a 2 Froggy battle on the first attempt), so maybe I did just get lucky. More practice will help me determine that for sure.

Quote:

You're already through Nido? Blasters appear there too, but only on top floor and fairly rarely.[...]The Biosystems Lab, however, will be a bitch no doubt. There's very little in the way of easy encounters there, and it's pretty long. You will probably still need Nei for the early goings as you would definitely want four bodies there to maximize your potential for survival, probably in Roron too. After that you have the Jet Scooter and all the characters, and that would probably be the optimal time to kill Nei off (Sak or Nasak will make that easy, and make your first Slugmess fight that much easier to control) and do whatever leveling you plan to pre-Climatrol.

Yeah, I got through Nido on the first attempt. I did remember Blasters appearing there, but was lucky enough not to run into any this time (Although the chances of it aren't very good anyway, since in a speedrun the only time I'm on the top floor is to beeline for Teim, and I escapipe out of there once I get her). Those are going to be my biggest (Though hardly my only) obstacle in the Biosystems Lab, no doubt. At this point, my observations are that there are fights that in general seem to be harder to run from than others, and unfortunately, anything with Blasters seems to be one of those that don't like you running. I'll do more testing, but at this point I'm almost considering just immediately flatout fighting anything with a single Blaster in it, just hoping I can survive its first attack and counter with GiFoi and kill it that turn.

EDIT: At this point, I'm thinking of just leveling up Rolf to 7 (Which should give everyone else one more level too) before the Biosystems Lab; trying to survive it at level 6 is just not working out, and the only reason I even survive as long as I do is usually because I can keep Rudo and only Rudo alive for a good portion of it (Which isn't very sensible speedrunning strategy either; even if I somehow survive the rest of the Lab with him and Telepipe/Escapipe out of there, I still need to build the Meseta to revive everyone else). This will also have the side effect of giving me more Meseta to buy some better armor and/or weapons.

[quote]
That surprises me, of course I've always powerleveled and bought at least close to the best gear beforehand in the past, so I wouldn't really know.[/quote]

Well, I'll grant that this was a minimum possible sample size of one practice run (And ti did take two attempts; I ran into a 2 Froggy battle on the first attempt), so maybe I did just get lucky. More practice will help me determine that for sure.

[quote]You're already through Nido?  Blasters appear there too, but only on top floor and fairly rarely.[...]The Biosystems Lab, however, will be a bitch no doubt.  There's very little in the way of easy encounters there, and it's pretty long.  You will probably still need Nei for the early goings as you would definitely want four bodies there to maximize your potential for survival, probably in Roron too.  After that you have the Jet Scooter and all the characters, and that would probably be the optimal time to kill Nei off (Sak or Nasak will make that easy, and make your first Slugmess fight that much easier to control) and do whatever leveling you plan to pre-Climatrol.[/quote]

Yeah, I got through Nido on the first attempt. I did remember Blasters appearing there, but was lucky enough not to run into any this time (Although the chances of it aren't very good anyway, since in a speedrun the only time I'm on the top floor is to beeline for Teim, and I escapipe out of there once I get her). Those are going to be my biggest (Though hardly my only) obstacle in the Biosystems Lab, no doubt. At this point, my observations are that there are fights that in general seem to be harder to run from than others, and unfortunately, anything with Blasters seems to be one of those that don't like you running. I'll do more testing, but at this point I'm almost considering just immediately flatout fighting anything with a single Blaster in it, just hoping I can survive its first attack and counter with GiFoi and kill it that turn.

EDIT: At this point, I'm thinking of just leveling up Rolf to 7 (Which should give everyone else one more level too) before the Biosystems Lab; trying to survive it at level 6 is just not working out, and the only reason I even survive as long as I do is usually because I can keep Rudo and only Rudo alive for a good portion of it (Which isn't very sensible speedrunning strategy either; even if I somehow survive the rest of the Lab with him and Telepipe/Escapipe out of there, I still need to build the Meseta to revive everyone else). This will also have the side effect of giving me more Meseta to buy some better armor and/or weapons.

Emptyeye

2006-11-25 05:58:31 pm

Talk to the Hand

Okay, a few notes:

I'm now past Roron, at around Level 8. Compared to the Biosystems Lab, Roron is actually pretty easy, mainly due to the fact that it's a straight shot to the Jet Scooter (As opposed to the Biosystems Lab where you have to traverse the entire top floor, and I went out of my way to pick up a Poisonshot in the basement too. I'll probably cut that part out of the actual run).

Apparently, in order for a character to appear at your house, you have to go to the trigger for that character (Generally visiting a town, except for Hugh where it seems to be getting the Recorder, or maybe just visiting the Biosystems Lab), AND you have to have already visited your house to get the character before them (I had some issues getting Shir into my party when I tried to skip Kueri at first. Apparently it doesn't work).

It seems that in theory, my idea of having Shir walk into a store and resetting if either she steals nothing OR she steals something I don't want will work. In practice, it'll be frustrating as hell, but eh, that's what segments are for, right?

Okay, a few notes:

I'm now past Roron, at around Level 8. Compared to the Biosystems Lab, Roron is actually pretty easy, mainly due to the fact that it's a straight shot to the Jet Scooter (As opposed to the Biosystems Lab where you have to traverse the entire top floor, and I went out of my way to pick up a Poisonshot in the basement too. I'll probably cut that part out of the actual run).

Apparently, in order for a character to appear at your house, you have to go to the trigger for that character (Generally visiting a town, except for Hugh where it seems to be getting the Recorder, or maybe just visiting the Biosystems Lab), AND you have to have already visited your house to get the character before them (I had some issues getting Shir into my party when I tried to skip Kueri at first. Apparently it doesn't work).

It seems that in theory, my idea of having Shir walk into a store and resetting if either she steals nothing OR she steals something I don't want will work. In practice, it'll be frustrating as hell, but eh, that's what segments are for, right?

Emptyeye

2006-11-30 02:09:41 am

Talk to the Hand

Okay, so I'm at Climatrol at levels entirely too low to get anywhere near Neifirst, let alone beat her. I had actually killed Nei off prior to Uzo, but may revive her for Climatrol, because A. She's a fourth target for enemies,and B. I can use her TP for healing before having to dip into my stock of items (Rolf's will mainly be used for attacking, and I need to save at least a bit of Amy's TP for Debans both up to and against Neifirst) (Heh, this sounds awful unless you know the game). If that doesn't work, I'll leave her dead for a bit, build some levels, and try again.

And yeah, Slugmesses seems to have an excellent Experience/effort ratio, even if they don't split from one another that much.

Breakdown

2006-11-30 08:28:58 am

Haters gonna hate

Hmm, I was actually thinking you'd do some heavy leveling once you had Shir, like 3 or 4 prolonged (and I mean like 100+ kill) Slugmess fights. If you hadn't noticed, when they duplicate the new one has the same HP as the one that made it, so it's not too hard to rig up an endless stream of one hit wonders. Yeah it'd be lengthy, but it would probably have you set level-wise for pretty much the rest of the game. That way you probably wouldn't even need Amy for Climatrol, you could put Anna in instead (I soloed Climatrol with Rolf at level 25 with ease, a party of 3 could probably take it on without Deban at an average level of about 20, maybe even lower, with no real trouble). If I was doing it, I think I'd do the leveling as such:

1st fight: Rolf, Nei, Rudo, Anna. Kill Nei with Sak/Nasak before it's over. Try to go big on the kill total with this one.

2nd and 3rd: Rolf, dead Nei, Anna, Kain. Go pretty big on both.

Rudo doesn't need the levels as much since all of his better weapons don't rely on stats at all (I'm pretty sure of this anyways) and he doesn't have any Techs to learn. Anna needs the fighting strength as it'll up her weapon damage, and a strong Kain will be a big help in the dams (Nagaj is godly if you get it early enough). It would take a pretty big chunk of time to do this, but I think it'll save you some down the road as you'll be able to blow through pretty much every fight you get into til Dezo.

Reviving Nei after the leveling isn't a terrible idea. Once the others are built that high the experience the monster give in that stage of the game is pretty negligible, and she will win fights faster for you. It'd also mean one less stealing segment since you wouldn't need a Moon Dew.

The powerleveling bit might not be feasible for a speed run, but I'm also not sure how well the minimalist approach is going to work for the late game. It's something to consider at least, can't hurt to test it.

Hmm, I was actually thinking you'd do some heavy leveling once you had Shir, like 3 or 4 prolonged (and I mean like 100+ kill) Slugmess fights.  If you hadn't noticed, when they duplicate the new one has the same HP as the one that made it, so it's not too hard to rig up an endless stream of one hit wonders.  Yeah it'd be lengthy, but it would probably have you set level-wise for pretty much the rest of the game.  That way you probably wouldn't even need Amy for Climatrol, you could put Anna in instead (I soloed Climatrol with Rolf at level 25 with ease, a party of 3 could probably take it on without Deban at an average level of about 20, maybe even lower, with no real trouble).  If I was doing it, I think I'd do the leveling as such:

1st fight:  Rolf, Nei, Rudo, Anna.  Kill Nei with Sak/Nasak before it's over.  Try to go big on the kill total with this one.

2nd and 3rd:  Rolf, dead Nei, Anna, Kain.  Go pretty big on both.

Rudo doesn't need the levels as much since all of his better weapons don't rely on stats at all (I'm pretty sure of this anyways) and he doesn't have any Techs to learn.  Anna needs the fighting strength as it'll up her weapon damage, and a strong Kain will be a big help in the dams (Nagaj is godly if you get it early enough).  It would take a pretty big chunk of time to do this, but I think it'll save you some down the road as you'll be able to blow through pretty much every fight you get into til Dezo.

Reviving Nei after the leveling isn't a terrible idea.  Once the others are built that high the experience the monster give in that stage of the game is pretty negligible, and she will win fights faster for you.  It'd also mean one less stealing segment since you wouldn't need a Moon Dew.

The powerleveling bit might not be feasible for a speed run, but I'm also not sure how well the minimalist approach is going to work for the late game.  It's something to consider at least, can't hurt to test it.

Emptyeye

2006-12-01 03:25:31 am

Talk to the Hand

Quote:

Hmm, I was actually thinking you'd do some heavy leveling once you had Shir, like 3 or 4 prolonged (and I mean like 100+ kill) Slugmess fights.

I planned on leveling at some point; what I'm not sure about yet is precisely where I'd do it.

Quote:

If you hadn't noticed, when they duplicate the new one has the same HP as the one that made it, so it's not too hard to rig up an endless stream of one hit wonders.

Getting the setup for a stream of one-hit wonders wouldn't be difficult, I agree. The problem is actually getting the Slugmesses to respawn. My best bet seems to be just putting everyone in defense mode once I get down to one (Or several) that will die in one hit, wait for it to respawn, etc.

And yeah, I had read about how the Slugmesses respawn elsewhere, I forget exactly where. Suffice to say, though, that one this is finally done, the list of thanks will be easily my most expansive to date (In contrast to my still-in-verification-hell Magic of Scheherazade run, which I did pretty much in a vacuum).

Quote:

Rudo doesn't need the levels as much since all of his better weapons don't rely on stats at all (I'm pretty sure of this anyways) and he doesn't have any Techs to learn. Anna needs the fighting strength as it'll up her weapon damage, and a strong Kain will be a big help in the dams (Nagaj is godly if you get it early enough).

I don't know if Rudo's weapons don't rely on stats at all or not (I think his Strength affects them nominally), but they do ignore enemy defense, which is nice, so I agree that leveling him as much is probably not necessary. I also agree that Anna and Kain will need to be leveled at some point; as I said above, I'm not sure where that point will be, although the more I think about it, the more doing it before the changeover to robots (As opposed to after it) sounds like a good idea. I was going to start that process immediately after the changeover, but I'm not sure how lucky i'll need to be in the first few battles to have a Level 1 Anna AND Kain survive the first couple battles, even defending.

Quote:

(Powerleveling is) something to consider at least, can't hurt to test it.

Agreed. As I mentioned a few posts back, there are a couple other things I could always test too. The more I think about it, the more I'm intrigued by Rolf/Rudo/Hugh/Kain post-Neifirst...the way I see it is that even properly leveled, I'm going to be running more than I'm going to be fighting, and having Hugh as a way to smack around Biomonsters on Dezo may not be the worst idea, since even some of them (I'm thinking of the Elephant family for one) have insane defense levels against weapon.

but we'll see what I ultimately end up doing.

[quote]Hmm, I was actually thinking you'd do some heavy leveling once you had Shir, like 3 or 4 prolonged (and I mean like 100+ kill) Slugmess fights.[/quote]

I planned on leveling at some point; what I'm not sure about yet is precisely where I'd do it.
 
[quote]If you hadn't noticed, when they duplicate the new one has the same HP as the one that made it, so it's not too hard to rig up an endless stream of one hit wonders.[/quote]

Getting the setup for a stream of one-hit wonders wouldn't be difficult, I agree. The problem is actually getting the Slugmesses to respawn. My best bet seems to be just putting everyone in defense mode once I get down to one (Or several) that will die in one hit, wait for it to respawn, etc.

And yeah, I had read about how the Slugmesses respawn elsewhere, I forget exactly where. Suffice to say, though, that one this is finally done, the list of thanks will be easily my most expansive to date (In contrast to my still-in-verification-hell Magic of Scheherazade run, which I did pretty much in a vacuum).

[quote]Rudo doesn't need the levels as much since all of his better weapons don't rely on stats at all (I'm pretty sure of this anyways) and he doesn't have any Techs to learn.  Anna needs the fighting strength as it'll up her weapon damage, and a strong Kain will be a big help in the dams (Nagaj is godly if you get it early enough).[/quote]

I don't know if Rudo's weapons don't rely on stats at all or not (I think his Strength affects them nominally), but they do ignore enemy defense, which is nice, so I agree that leveling him as much is probably not necessary. I also agree that Anna and Kain will need to be leveled at some point; as I said above, I'm not sure where that point will be, although the more I think about it, the more doing it before the changeover to robots (As opposed to after it) sounds like a good idea. I was going to start that process immediately after the changeover, but I'm not sure how lucky i'll need to be in the first few battles to have a Level 1 Anna AND Kain survive the first couple battles, even defending.

[quote](Powerleveling is) something to consider at least, can't hurt to test it.[/quote]

Agreed. As I mentioned a few posts back, there are a couple other things I could always test too. The more I think about it, the more I'm intrigued by Rolf/Rudo/Hugh/Kain post-Neifirst...the way I see it is that even properly leveled, I'm going to be running more than I'm going to be fighting, and having Hugh as a way to smack around Biomonsters on Dezo may not be the worst idea, since even some of them (I'm thinking of the Elephant family for one) have insane defense levels against weapon.

but we'll see what I ultimately end up doing.

Emptyeye

2006-12-03 04:35:58 am

Talk to the Hand

Okay, so I went with the minimalist approach through Climatrol for this practice run.

Getting through Climatrol to Neifirst took many many attempts, and Neifirst took quite a few as well, but somehow I got a perfect battle with Neifirst, and managed to beat her with Rolf/Rudo/Amy at levels of 11/9/9, respectively (Rudo was the only one left alive at the end, and he was actually out of healing items, so I was pretty happy when she dropped). The main issue with the battle is that anyone but Rudo goes down in one sword hit, meaning I have to hope either that she hits Rudo or goes for the claw attack. This by itself isn't huge (I use to Visiphone to save right before Neifirst), but even Debaned, Amy goes down in one sword hit or two claws, and Rolf drops in two swords. Rudo actually survives two consecutive sword hits with Deban; the third kills him. This, combined with the fact that Rudo with a Laser Shot actually does less damage than Rolf (Two Laser Knives) or Amy (Two Fire Staves for this play, I might just go with two Laser Knives in the final run), makes him the best choice to play healer for the other two characters.

Another note is that I don't even need to have Nei Sak/Nasak herself to more quickly end the fight with Neifirst; Neifirst easily drops her in one sword hit before Nei can even do anything, which amuses me.

Also, the only reason I even hit those levels with Rudo and Amy was because I got lucky enough to run into multiple Blastoid fights. Blastoids (From the same family as Blasters, only minus the "wipe half your entire party's HP" out attack) spawn like Slugmesses do, and while they have more HP than Slugmesses, they do less damage per attack, which actually makes them better candidates for level farming if I decide to do so pre-Neifirst (Remember, I'm underleveled to this point, so this is a bigger consideration than it would be in a normal run).

I'm now trying to figure out what to do with all the Meseta I have from the leveling I did do (Primarily from getting Shir up to level 10). Right now the primary candidate is getting a Laser Slasher or two for Anna, as well as stocking up on healing items.

Okay, so I went with the minimalist approach through Climatrol for this practice run.

Getting through Climatrol to Neifirst took many many attempts, and Neifirst took quite a few as well, but somehow I got a perfect battle with Neifirst, and managed to beat her with Rolf/Rudo/Amy at levels of 11/9/9, respectively (Rudo was the only one left alive at the end, and he was actually out of healing items, so I was pretty happy when she dropped). The main issue with the battle is that anyone but Rudo goes down in one sword hit, meaning I have to hope either that she hits Rudo or goes for the claw attack. This by itself isn't huge (I use to Visiphone to save right before Neifirst), but even Debaned, Amy goes down in one sword hit or two claws, and Rolf drops in two swords. Rudo actually survives two consecutive sword hits with Deban; the third kills him. This, combined with the fact that Rudo with a Laser Shot actually does less damage than Rolf (Two Laser Knives) or Amy (Two Fire Staves for this play, I might just go with two Laser Knives in the final run), makes him the best choice to play healer for the other two characters.

Another note is that I don't even need to have Nei Sak/Nasak herself to more quickly end the fight with Neifirst; Neifirst easily drops her in one sword hit before Nei can even do anything, which amuses me.

Also, the only reason I even hit those levels with Rudo and Amy was because I got lucky enough to run into multiple Blastoid fights. Blastoids (From the same family as Blasters, only minus the "wipe half your entire party's HP" out attack) spawn like Slugmesses do, and while they have more HP than Slugmesses, they do less damage per attack, which actually makes them better candidates for level farming if I decide to do so pre-Neifirst (Remember, I'm underleveled to this point, so this is a bigger consideration than it would be in a normal run).

I'm now trying to figure out what to do with all the Meseta I have from the leveling I did do (Primarily from getting Shir up to level 10). Right now the primary candidate is getting a Laser Slasher or two for Anna, as well as stocking up on healing items.

Emptyeye

2006-12-05 03:17:52 am

Talk to the Hand

Talkin, to myse-elf, (oh, oh ooooooh...).

So I'm now on Dezo, with Rolf/Rudo/Anna/Kain at levels of 13/13/11/11, respectively. A couple things are apparent at this point:

At some point, I'm going to have to power level at least once more. Surviving the Dams isn't really a big deal (Though Kain showed an annoying propensity for dying), but surviving Dark Force/Mother Brain will be, if I can even make it that far with these levels.

After the Control Tower, the game opens up somewhat. The typical order for the four Dams is usually Red-Yellow-Blue-Green. I'm probably going to wind up going either Blue-Yellow-Red-Green or Yellow-Blue-Red-Green. Yellow has some nice Crystal armor for three of the four characters (Keep in mind, this will effectively be the first time I upgrade armor all game); two of which are basically directly in the path I'm taking (The third is a small deviation, but worth it), while Blue has the Snow Crown, which gives me Deban anytime I want it (This is huge).

I'll also need to plan a route through Dezo...once I get the Prism, I'll wind up doing Ikuto first in all likelihood (For the Neishot and Neislasher), and Naval last (The two Nei items are useless and I'm only grabbing them because I need all eight to get to Noah), but beyond that is totally up in the air as of right now.

In short, progress is still being made, but the "linear" part of the run is effectively over, so this may slow down this test/practice/whatever you want to call it for a bit.

Talkin, to myse-elf, (oh, oh ooooooh...).

So I'm now on Dezo, with Rolf/Rudo/Anna/Kain at levels of 13/13/11/11, respectively. A couple things are apparent at this point:

At some point, I'm going to have to power level at least once more. Surviving the Dams isn't really a big deal (Though Kain showed an annoying propensity for dying), but surviving Dark Force/Mother Brain will be, if I can even make it that far with these levels.

After the Control Tower, the game opens up somewhat. The typical order for the four Dams is usually Red-Yellow-Blue-Green. I'm probably going to wind up going either Blue-Yellow-Red-Green or Yellow-Blue-Red-Green. Yellow has some nice Crystal armor for three of the four characters (Keep in mind, this will effectively be the first time I upgrade armor all game); two of which are basically directly in the path I'm taking (The third is a small deviation, but worth it), while Blue has the Snow Crown, which gives me Deban anytime I want it (This is huge).

I'll also need to plan a route through Dezo...once I get the Prism, I'll wind up doing Ikuto first in all likelihood (For the Neishot and Neislasher), and Naval last (The two Nei items are useless and I'm only grabbing them because I need all eight to get to Noah), but beyond that is totally up in the air as of right now.

In short, progress is still being made, but the "linear" part of the run is effectively over, so this may slow down this test/practice/whatever you want to call it for a bit.

Breakdown

2006-12-08 11:28:03 am

Haters gonna hate

Good job on Neifirst, I wouldn't have thought she could've been beaten at that low a level. Since she went down that low I wouldn't be too surprised if the last bosses could be tackled with levels in the high teens. Dark Force will be a pain, but he has really low defense, so Rolf, Rudo and Anna should be able to take chunks out of him with the Nei weaponry, and I'm 99% sure Kain's Nagaj works on him. It'll pretty much boil down to you geting lucky with his possesion crap. Draw the right "evils" (i.e. the one's that don't incapacitate a character) on the right characters and you should be able to take him down relatively quickly. A couple Star Mists will probably help too, but might not be needed. You'd probably want to warp back to Lutz after that fight for free healing (say "no" when he asks if you're brave enough full HP and TP for everyone in case you didn't know, not sure if he can revive people though). She has higher defense, but lower attack power. Hopefully you'll be able to keep a couple characters alive with steady Gires item usage after the Snow Crown. I don't see any way to make that fight go fast at low levels, but it should be winnable.

Also, in Menobe there a shortcut to the Nei Crown. Early on the route for it on the second floor there's a wall you can hug that'll get you around a statue and cut out a lot of the legwork (yay lazy programmers). Again, just in case you didn't know.

Good job on Neifirst, I wouldn't have thought she could've been beaten at that low a level.  Since she went down that low I wouldn't be too surprised if the last bosses could be tackled with levels in the high teens.  Dark Force will be a pain, but he has really low defense, so Rolf, Rudo and Anna should be able to take chunks out of him with the Nei weaponry, and I'm 99% sure Kain's Nagaj works on him.  It'll pretty much boil down to you geting lucky with his possesion crap.  Draw the right "evils" (i.e. the one's that don't incapacitate a character) on the right characters and you should be able to take him down relatively quickly.  A couple Star Mists will probably help too, but might not be needed.  You'd probably want to warp back to Lutz after that fight for free healing (say "no" when he asks if you're brave enough full HP and TP for everyone in case you didn't know, not sure if he can revive people though).  She has higher defense, but lower attack power.  Hopefully you'll be able to keep a couple characters alive with steady Gires item usage after the Snow Crown.  I don't see any way to make that fight go fast at low levels, but it should be winnable.

Also, in Menobe there a shortcut to the Nei Crown.  Early on the route for it on the second floor there's a wall you can hug that'll get you around a statue and cut out a lot of the legwork (yay lazy programmers).  Again, just in case you didn't know.

Emptyeye

Edit history:

Emptyeye: 2006-12-09 09:49:06 pm

2006-12-09 05:36:57 pm

Talk to the Hand

Yeah, the way I see the Dark Force/Mother Brain battles playing out is this: Kain learns NaGaj at 17,so I'll have to build him (And probably everyone else) up at least that high. Additionally, the way I see the Mother Brain battle playing out, I'l have to build everyone up high enough that they can survive at least one un-Debaned Nova from her (Basically, I presume MB will be going first, she hits the party for some insane damage, I Snow Crown/Star Mist in response and take it from there). Basically, as you said, as long as I can survive that first turn, I should be able to Gires my way to surviving the battle, albeit slowly.

As for getting to that point, because of Menobe's proximity to the Crevise, it seems to make sense to go through the dungeons in the order of either Menobe-Ikuto-Guaron-Naval or Ikuto-Guaron-Naval-Menobe. As for the Neicrown shortcut, I had seen it on a map, but wasn't sure if it would actually work or not, so it's good to know that it will. Pity there isn't something similar for the Neimet or any other items...

EDIT: And I knew pretty much all of that other stuff, but it's always good to hear it again. Keep coming with suggestions, as you never know when something I didn't know will come up.

EDIT 2: Past Ikuto (I decided to try and do it first) with levels of 15/15/14/13. I'm discovering an interesting phenomenon that I had touched on in an earlier post. The enemies on Dezo are SO much stronger than those in the Dams. By itself, this isn't a big deal, but the difference is to the point that with a decent number of formations, if I try and fail to run even ONCE, I'm pretty much screwed. As such, I'm almost better off just fighting a lot of the battles regardless of how long it takes.

Yeah, the way I see the Dark Force/Mother Brain battles playing out is this: Kain learns NaGaj at 17,so I'll have to build him (And probably everyone else) up at least that high. Additionally, the way I see the Mother Brain battle playing out, I'l have to build everyone up high enough that they can survive at least one un-Debaned Nova from her (Basically, I presume MB will be going first, she hits the party for some insane damage, I Snow Crown/Star Mist in response and take it from there). Basically, as you said, as long as I can survive that first turn, I should be able to Gires my way to surviving the battle, albeit slowly.

As for getting to that point, because of Menobe's proximity to the Crevise, it seems to make sense to go through the dungeons in the order of either Menobe-Ikuto-Guaron-Naval or Ikuto-Guaron-Naval-Menobe. As for the Neicrown shortcut, I had seen it on a map, but wasn't sure if it would actually work or not, so it's good to know that it will. Pity there isn't something similar for the Neimet or any other items...

EDIT: And I knew pretty much all of that other stuff, but it's always good to hear it again. Keep coming with suggestions, as you never know when something I didn't know will come up.

EDIT 2: Past Ikuto (I decided to try and do it first) with levels of 15/15/14/13. I'm discovering an interesting phenomenon that I had touched on in an earlier post. The enemies on Dezo are SO much stronger than those in the Dams. By itself, this isn't a big deal, but the difference is to the point that with a decent number of formations, if I try and fail to run even ONCE, I'm pretty much screwed. As such, I'm almost better off just fighting a lot of the battles regardless of how long it takes.

Emptyeye

2006-12-10 05:18:27 pm

Talk to the Hand

Okay, so I'm past Guaron now. Two dungeons down, two to go before Noah. Levels are 16/15/16/15. Getting the Neiarmor is nice, as it indirectly improves both Kain AND Rudo's defense (I put the Neiarmor on Kain, and give Rudo the Crystanish that Kain was wearing before that). The Neicape is useless in this party, unfortunately, but eh.

Something I started doing for this dungeon (And that I wish I had started long before this) was listing enemy formations I encountered and how many tries it took me to run from each of them. As I mentioned before, certain formations/enemies are less likely to allow you to run than others (Darksides, for instance, are basically impossible to run from). This helps me figure out what, precisely, I should try to run from and what I should just hunker down and fight (Actually winning fights at this point is generally not that difficult thanks to the GiRes items, but it is time consuming. On the other hand, it'll be less leveling I'll have to do later).

Emptyeye

2006-12-11 03:53:52 am

Talk to the Hand

Two posts in 12 hours WHEE!!

I went nuts working on the test run and actually wound up completing the thing. My final levels were 18 across the board. Basically, at that low level, I need some first round luck with Dark Force, much as I did for Neifirst (Basically, if he attacks, I restart; if he does the "turn a character evil" thing, I go on). Really, I need luck the entire battle, actually.

Believe it or not,my basic strategy for Dark Force is just attack and heal as necessary, because it basically has no defense from what various sources indicate. Mother Brain is where I go all-out with tech (Rolf NaFois, Kain NaGajs) because of her defense.

I guess the next step is to do it all again, this timing rough-timing it to make sure it'll come in under 7 hours.

Breakdown

2006-12-11 08:24:28 am

Haters gonna hate

Nice! So I'm guessing you skipped going back to Lutz huh? For a speedrun that's definitely ideal but I wasn't sure if it'd work. Good stuff.

I look forward to the final product, and I must admit I'm curious just how anal about things you intend to be while taping. Any rough estimate of how many segments you're expecting to have?

Emptyeye

Edit history:

Emptyeye: 2006-12-12 02:08:14 am

2006-12-11 10:56:47 pm

Talk to the Hand

Yeah, not only did I skip going back to Lutz, but I managed to take out Dark Force AND Mother Brain in the same segment! Considering that there was preliminary discussion about a TAS for this game some time back, and even they seemed intimidated somewhat by this notion (See the last paragraph here), I'm pretty proud of this. If worse comes to worst and I don't think I'll get anywhere near 7 hours on this, I'll probably still just upload the DF/MB portion to YouTube or something.

As an aside, NaGaj does seem to work against Dark Force if I choose to go that route, but I think saving the tech for MB is still the quickest way.

Hopefully for Christmas I'll be getting a shiny DVD recorder, and I'll be done with another test run by then to see if this will actually come in at/near seven hours.

As for segments, um....25 or so? I know how I want to segment it, but I haven't actually done the math on it yet.

EDIT: Okay, we have (These are the main portions of the segments as I see them; some other stuff, like recruiting characters at various points, is implied):
-Level to 4
-Shure
-Nido
-Level to 7 (Level Amy to 4)
-Biosystems Lab
-Roron, getting Shir
-Shir steals a bunch of items (9 segments; 7 Laser Knives and 2 Fire Staves)
-Level Shir to 10
-Steal Visiphone
-Uzo Island
-Climatrol
-Neifirst
-Level Anna and Kain to 10
-Control Tower
-Yellow Dam
-Blue Dam
-Red Dam
-Green Dam/Gaira
-Skure (to Aukba)
-Crevice
-Ikuto
-Guaron
-Naval
-Menobe
-Crevice (again)
-Noah
-Dark Force/Mother Brain

So it's actually 35 segments. Maybe more. Wow. Note that I can theoretically do the leveling of Shir after Uzo Island if I were so inclined.

Yeah, not only did I skip going back to Lutz, but I managed to take out Dark Force AND Mother Brain in the same segment! Considering that there was preliminary discussion about a TAS for this game some time back, and even they seemed intimidated somewhat by this notion (See [url=http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=25020#25020]the last paragraph here[/url]), I'm pretty proud of this. If worse comes to worst and I don't think I'll get anywhere near 7 hours on this, I'll probably still just upload the DF/MB portion to YouTube or something.

As an aside, NaGaj does seem to work against Dark Force if I choose to go that route, but I think saving the tech for MB is still the quickest way.

Hopefully for Christmas I'll be getting a shiny DVD recorder, and I'll be done with another test run by then to see if this will actually come in at/near seven hours.

As for segments, um....25 or so? I know how I want to segment it, but I haven't actually done the math on it yet.

EDIT: Okay, we have (These are the main portions of the segments as I see them; some other stuff, like recruiting characters at various points, is implied):
-Level to 4
-Shure
-Nido
-Level to 7 (Level Amy to 4)
-Biosystems Lab
-Roron, getting Shir
-Shir steals a bunch of items (9 segments; 7 Laser Knives and 2 Fire Staves)
[i]-Level Shir to 10
-Steal Visiphone[/i]
-Uzo Island
-Climatrol
-Neifirst
-Level Anna and Kain to 10
-Control Tower
-Yellow Dam
-Blue Dam
-Red Dam
-Green Dam/Gaira
-Skure (to Aukba)
-Crevice
-Ikuto
-Guaron
-Naval
-Menobe
-Crevice (again)
-Noah
-Dark Force/Mother Brain

So it's actually 35 segments. Maybe more. Wow. Note that I can theoretically do the leveling of Shir after Uzo Island if I were so inclined.