Paper Mario (N64) Discussion and Planning Sub-4:40

Edit history:

Floogal: 2006-02-01 06:18:16 pm

2006-02-01 06:17:36 pm

Not a bad strategy, but I think it could be better.

For phase two, simply do a 5-hit Power Bounce (8 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 4) followed by a jump attack (6 + 6). Have your partner skip its turn. The Lava Buds won't have time to hurt you. If ice attacks only stun the Lava Piranha for one round (I can't remember), then all the better: a 4-hit bounce (8 + 7 + 6 + 5) and a jump (8 + 8).

Or, if you're good enough, a 7-hit Power Bounce (35 damage) followed by Smack/Shell Shot for a one round kill that avoids the Kolorado cutscene.

For phase one, if you could start at 1 HP, then a Power Bounce/Outta Sight/Power Bounce would win it in two rounds. Does the extra round take longer than the 13 seconds it would take to get down to peril?

Also, I believe that your Star Power values are off (this is being needlessly picky, sorry).

- Mario automatically recovers 1/8 of a unit of star power at the beginning of each turn.

- If Mario or his partner focuses, you will recover an additional 1/2 of a unit of star power.

- For each Deep Focus badge equipped, Mario (but not his partners) will recover an additional 1/4 of a unit of star power with each focus. So if all three are equipped, you recover one and 1/4 units of star power with each focus, on top of the 1/8 auto-gain.

Not a bad strategy, but I think it could be better.

For phase two, simply do a 5-hit Power Bounce (8 + 7 + 6 + 5 + 4) followed by a jump attack (6 + 6).  Have your partner skip its turn.  The Lava Buds won't have time to hurt you.  If ice attacks only stun the Lava Piranha for one round (I can't remember), then all the better: a 4-hit bounce (8 + 7 + 6 + 5) and a jump (8 + 8).

Or, if you're good enough, a 7-hit Power Bounce (35 damage) followed by Smack/Shell Shot for a one round kill that avoids the Kolorado cutscene.

For phase one, if you could start at 1 HP, then a Power Bounce/Outta Sight/Power Bounce would win it in two rounds.  Does the extra round take longer than the 13 seconds it would take to get down to peril?

Also, I believe that your Star Power values are off (this is being needlessly picky, sorry).

- Mario automatically recovers 1/8 of a unit of star power at the beginning of each turn.

- If Mario or his partner focuses, you will recover an additional 1/2 of a unit of star power.

- For each Deep Focus badge equipped, Mario (but not his partners) will recover an additional 1/4 of a unit of star power with each focus.  So if all three are equipped, you recover one and 1/4 units of star power with each focus, on top of the 1/8 auto-gain.

Jacob91

Edit history:

Jacob91: 2006-02-01 07:34:30 pm

2006-02-01 07:29:46 pm

Quote:

Also, I believe that your Star Power values are off (this is being needlessly picky, sorry).

- Mario automatically recovers 1/8 of a unit of star power at the beginning of each turn.

^ i knew that i swear, i just forgot that 1/8 is 0.125 there for a sec.
Looking back i thought it was 0.150, I think that i knew it was 1/8 since i was like, 11, so i converted it into decimals incorrectly and the incorrect decimals stuck in my head.

I think i have a foolproof strategy.

Dont get the super block in the jungle
(saves 40 seconds)

get the one in the mountain, spinning straight through the fire bars.
(adds ~13 seconds, take 6 damage)

When you are in the room before the room with the ultra hammer, in the upper part, spin into the lava, use parakarry, push blocks
and fall in facing left midjump, then spin to get life shroom.
(adds 4 seconds or less take 2 damage)

When you have to wait for the platform to get there, damage three times and get on the raft
(no time added)

At the right side of that room, fall in three times
(adds ~6 seconds take 3 damage)

You can skip phase 1 in the lava pirahna battle
(saves 15 seconds)

You can follow floogal's strategy on the lava pirahna
(saves 40 seconds)

Total time saved: 95 seconds
Added time: 23 seconds
Total time saves after time added: 1 minute 13 seconds

[quote]Also, I believe that your Star Power values are off (this is being needlessly picky, sorry).

- Mario automatically recovers 1/8 of a unit of star power at the beginning of each turn.

[/quote]
^ i knew that i swear, i just forgot that 1/8 is 0.125 there for a sec.
Looking back i thought it was 0.150, I think that i knew it was 1/8 since i was like, 11, so i converted it into decimals incorrectly and the incorrect decimals stuck in my head.

I think i have a foolproof strategy.

Dont get the super block in the jungle
(saves 40 seconds)

get the one in the mountain, spinning straight through the fire bars.
(adds ~13 seconds, take 6 damage)

When you are in the room before the room with the ultra hammer, in the upper part, spin into the lava, use parakarry, push blocks
and fall in facing left midjump, then spin to get life shroom.
(adds 4 seconds or less take 2 damage)

When you have to wait for the platform to get there, damage three times and get on the raft
(no time added)

At the right side of that room, fall in three times
(adds ~6 seconds take 3 damage)

You can skip phase 1 in the lava pirahna battle
(saves 15 seconds)

You can follow floogal's strategy on the lava pirahna
(saves 40 seconds)

Total time saved: 95 seconds
Added time: 23 seconds
Total time saves after time added: 1 minute 13 seconds

Jacob91

2006-02-01 11:40:51 pm

Just bought an RCA DVD recorder.
Tell you when it gets here.
Whenever i get around to it, i will edit in all of my boss strategies to see if they can be improved.
I am writing a guide on this btw, at gamefaqs.

Floogal

2006-02-01 11:46:13 pm

Quote:

When you are in the room before the room with the ultra hammer, in the upper part, spin into the lava, use parakarry, push blocks
and fall in facing left midjump, then spin to get life shroom.
(adds 4 seconds or less take 2 damage)

Quote:

At the right side of that room, fall in three times
(adds ~6 seconds take 3 damage)

I would forget about these two and just spend 5 seconds bouncing on the firebars for 5 damage. Remember, bounce on the very centre for continuous damage.

Also, consider letting the second spiked Thwomp run you over (the one that runs over Kolorado). Since you have to wait for it to hit the wall anyways, this could be free damage (1 HP only), unless Mario is stunned for a while after being run over.

Don't bother with the first spiked Thwomp, since you should outrun it by a lot.

Jacob91

2006-02-02 12:00:31 am

I considered letting the spike ball run me over but wasn't sure if it inflicted damage.

Jacob91

Edit history:

Jacob91: 2006-02-04 04:12:48 pm

2006-02-03 11:41:45 pm

How do you get the crystal and the water at once from the yellow flower?

How's wak commin' along?

Floogal

2006-02-05 12:17:37 am

You mean the crystal and the soil (if you don't, then your guess is as good as mine).

Simply don't talk to Posie until after you've talked to Rosie. Right after going through the red flower gate, grab a yellow berry and backtrack to head to the yellow flower gate. It doesn't save a whole lot of time (maybe 10-15 seconds?), but every bit counts.

I don't think you can do anything else out of order. Before talking to Rosie the first time, you must have talked to Lily, which you must have done after getting the Magic Bean from Petunia. If Petunia doesn't give you the seed, Lily doesn't ask for you to find the Water Stone. And if Lily doesn't ask for you to find the Water Stone, Rosie won't offer to trade (in fact, the two Lakitus won't even appear in the hedge maze), which you need to get the Crystal Berry from Posie.

Bulblax

2006-02-05 12:25:13 am

hi

You have to talk to Posie to talk to Lily, to therefore make the Lakitu's appear, etc rest of this crap

also if it's not clear already you DO NOT need the ultra boots to get past those weird ledge things...get the boots when you go to shiver city

most guides i've read say you need to get the boots in the middle of the chapter ._.

Floogal

2006-02-05 12:40:40 am

No, you don't need to get the Ultra Boots until right before going to Shiver City. But the extra power could speed up the Huff'n'Puff fight.

But you can delay getting the Fertile Soil until you're also ready to get the Crystal Berry. I have done it several times.

Of course, my ROM could be messed up....

Jacob91

Edit history:

Jacob91: 2006-02-07 03:59:34 am

2006-02-07 03:57:31 am

I'm not getting the ultra boots before going to fight huff n puff, It's out of the way.

I'll just super charge the first two turns, get to peril and then get a 9-hit power bounce in.

Is there a limit on power bounces, or does the window of opportunity to bounce just get smaller?

VorpalEdge

2006-02-07 12:34:12 pm

welcome to the machine

You can bounce at least 15 times; probably 20+, but I can't remember my max. You're fine.

StrangenessDSS

2006-02-07 01:00:04 pm

Sleeping Terror

Isn't there a max on bosses?

Wak

(user is banned)

2006-02-07 05:28:43 pm

strangenessDSS: no?

anyway, i stopped my run. working on alttp sub 2 hours SS 100%

Jacob91

Edit history:

Jacob91: 2006-02-07 09:44:04 pm

2006-02-07 09:37:46 pm

WAK? What? You were doing good...
Why'd you stop?

These range from 1-3 turns and some you have to
make pre-arrangements.
Which of these is best in your opinion?

Huff -n- Puff strat 1
(super boots, not ultra)

Turn 1: Super charge/smack
Deliberately get lowered to 9 HP

Turn 2: Super charge/spiny surge
Deliberately get lowered to 1 HP

Turn 3: Turbo charge+ Power bounce

Base=2+3+3+4+1=13
6 hit power bounce
13+12+11+10+9+8=63 damage

OR

Huff n puff strategy 2
(super boots again)

Turn 1: Super charge+Turbo charge
Deliberately get lowered to 1 HP.

Turn 2: MERLEE POWER BOOST
Attack +3
Base=2+3+3+4+1=13
6 hit power bounce
13+12+11+10+9+8=63 damage

OR

huff n puff strategy 3

With ultra boots

Turn 1: Super charge/turbo charge
Deliberately go to 1 HP

Turn 2: Power bounce
Base= 3+1+3+4=11
8 hit Power bounce
11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4=60 damage

Huffn puff strat 4
With ultra boots

Turn 1: start with 1 HP
MERLEE POWER BOOST
Turbo charge
Base=3+3+4+1=11
8 hit Power bounce
11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4=60 damage

SO,,, Which is best in your opinion?

WAK? What? You were doing good...
Why'd you stop?

These range from 1-3 turns and some you have to 
make pre-arrangements.
Which of these is best in your opinion?

Huff -n- Puff strat 1
(super boots, not ultra)

Turn 1: Super charge/smack
Deliberately get lowered to 9 HP

Turn 2: Super charge/spiny surge
Deliberately get lowered to 1 HP

Turn 3: Turbo charge+ Power bounce

Base=2+3+3+4+1=13
6 hit power bounce
13+12+11+10+9+8=63 damage

OR

Huff n puff strategy 2
(super boots again)

Turn 1: Super charge+Turbo charge
Deliberately get lowered to 1 HP.

Turn 2: MERLEE POWER BOOST
Attack +3
Base=2+3+3+4+1=13
6 hit power bounce
13+12+11+10+9+8=63 damage

OR

huff n puff strategy 3

With ultra boots

Turn 1: Super charge/turbo charge
Deliberately go to 1 HP

Turn 2: Power bounce
Base= 3+1+3+4=11
8 hit Power bounce
11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4=60 damage

Huffn puff strat 4
With ultra boots

Turn 1: start with 1 HP
MERLEE POWER BOOST
Turbo charge
Base=3+3+4+1=11
8 hit Power bounce
11+10+9+8+7+6+5+4=60 damage

SO,,, Which is best in your opinion?

Jacob91

2006-02-09 09:52:27 pm

Anybody seriously have any suggestions?
My DVD recorder should be here any day...

AquaTiger

2006-02-10 02:16:11 am

Never give up!

Hmmm.... I don't have much experience with the game, in all honesty, but here's what I think judging from what I DO know.

Since I think there's no coincidence in the fact the strategies progress from 'least setup' to 'most setup' AND 'longest' to 'shortest', I'm going to put it this way:

First thing is to ask yourself is whether the Ultra Boots take less time to get than that extra round against Huff 'n Puff takes. If the Ultra Boots do NOT take less time to get than that extra round takes, forget about strategies 3 and 4.

Unfortunately, I don't know much about the Merlee Power Boost, so I can't help there, but your second question involves that. If luck is the key to getting that to work, though, I'm not sure that's a brilliant way to go.

I myself would suggest the first strategy - it takes the least setup and still looks quite good.

Jacob91

2006-02-10 10:19:02 pm

Thanks, aquatiger, you helped sort some things out, but I still have 1 question.
Is it woth it to get the special course form Merlee?
It takes 50 coins, so I could sell a whacka bump, and it saves time on all of the bosses with correct setup.

VorpalEdge

Edit history:

VorpalEdge: 2006-02-11 04:10:19 am

2006-02-11 04:09:49 am

welcome to the machine

I'd first have to determine what calls the rng for the game before I consider using Merlee seriously at all. If, for example, the first battle you fight after reloading a save always has the exact same outcome with her specials, then there's no way I'd ever use her. I'd have to force myself to get the attack boost each time she appears, meaning, I might have to go so far as redo an entire chapter just to get that rng to spit out the right value.

Man, I hate randomness.

Floogal

Edit history:

Floogal: 2006-02-11 08:04:55 am

2006-02-11 07:47:46 am

I don't think that Merlee's boosts are random. Read back to my strategy for beating final Bowser in 2 rounds. It seems that the game tracks the number of battle rounds that have past since acquiring the spell, then giving you the boost on every nth round. If you happen to not attack on that round, then that boost is skipped (and saved for later?). I would guess that the number of battles would be counted for the coin/star-point boost as well.

This means that it isn't worth it to use Merlee. Given how little fighting there is in a speed run, you would probably only get the attack boost (which doesn't occur very frequently) a few times throughout the game. Also, the animations for getting the spell and then receiving its boosts eat up extra time. Forget her, at least until someone (don't look at me... yet...) figures out the system.

EDIT:
It's probably to late to comment on your Huff'n'Puff strategies, but anyways:

I like your first strategy the best, since it doesn't require Merlee's boosts or the Ultra Boots. But, to improve it, don't bother switching allies; just use Parakarry the whole time:

1) Super Jump Charge, nothing.
- Huff'n'Puff body slams you for 4-5 (your choice) damage.

2) Super Jump Charge, nothing.
- Huff'n'Puff uses wind blast for 2-7 (your choice) damage.

3) 6-hit Power Bounce (12 + 11 + 10 + 9 + 8 + 7), Shell Shot (at least 5).

I don't think that Merlee's boosts are random.  Read back to my strategy for beating final Bowser in 2 rounds.  It seems that the game tracks the number of battle rounds that have past since acquiring the spell, then giving you the boost on every nth round.  If you happen to not attack on that round, then that boost is skipped (and saved for later?).  I would guess that the number of battles would be counted for the coin/star-point boost as well.

This means that it isn't worth it to use Merlee.  Given how little fighting there is in a speed run, you would probably only get the attack boost (which doesn't occur very frequently) a few times throughout the game.  Also, the animations for getting the spell and then receiving its boosts eat up extra time.  Forget her, at least until someone (don't look at me...  yet...) figures out the system.

EDIT:
It's probably to late to comment on your Huff'n'Puff strategies, but anyways:

I like your first strategy the best, since it doesn't require Merlee's boosts or the Ultra Boots.  But, to improve it, don't bother switching allies; just use Parakarry the whole time:

1) Super Jump Charge, nothing.
- Huff'n'Puff body slams you for 4-5 (your choice) damage.

2) Super Jump Charge, nothing.
- Huff'n'Puff uses wind blast for 2-7 (your choice) damage.

3) 6-hit Power Bounce (12 + 11 + 10 + 9 + 8 + 7), Shell Shot (at least 5).

Floogal

Edit history:

Floogal: 2006-03-23 07:26:40 am

2006-03-23 07:25:12 am

Sorry to bump a topic that is over a month old. But I've been doing a lot of research for this game during that month, which I have sent in to http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/n64/papermario/. However, the owner is too busy to update the site for a while, so anyone who is running/plans to run this game can PM me for a copy of all my proposed additions/changes.

The changes will be in a zip file containing 10 Word documents (156 kB in zip, 1.22 MB in docs). I'm not going to filter out any information that would not be useful to a speedrun, though (the "Enemies" file would probably contain most of what you would want).

If I get at least 3 requests, then I will upload the zip file to a site -- any good suggestions?.

By the way, how is your run going, Jacob91?

VorpalEdge

2006-03-23 02:40:44 pm

welcome to the machine

Would love to see it.

Nathan Stinson

2006-03-27 04:03:55 am

so... this run isn't going anymore?:(

WingedKitsune

2006-04-21 03:27:27 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Aww...I was really looking forward to seeing this run done too...

But a new A Link To The Past run will be good too.

Jacob91

2006-06-24 10:01:54 am

Sorry to bump yet again, but I would definately regret it if this got purged, and I am still definately working on it, and I will get segments done quick when i eventually get a VCR.

Chunky

2006-06-24 08:13:05 pm

I believe there is an 8 bounce limit on bosses.