OoT [N64] Segmented [Suspended]

2006-08-07 12:28:23 am

He's back!

Quote:

OT: So YE, AKA, Quijo any tips on what to do in Leicester or Birmingham?

Couldn't really say, I've been to Birmingham, but not leicester. The only thing I've ever done there is stop for petrol (gas) and go see Villa Park. Your probally better going to Manchester.

Manocheese

2006-08-07 03:09:18 am

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote:

I'm seeing a lot of save-warping in the proposed route here. I hope you understand there will probably be a time penalty each time you do that.

I haven't posted here in since the day that the last OoT thread grew forty pages. This is because my life cannot consist solely of reading SDA. What I have been doing is transcribing everything I learned about OoT leading up to TSA's 4:57 run onto [url]www.speedrunwiki.com[/url] which is an open-source site full of speed strategies. It seemed to be a much better way to develop and discuss tricks than a single immense thread. This is a good place to start, the link in my sig may also be of use. Hop over and lend a hand if you feel like it. Of course, I see there's already a routes wiki going so I don't know.

I am semi-up-to-date on all these new tricks. I am seeing a distressing amount of glitches. I hope we all know that Radix doesn't like glitches (c.f. the Defection Glitch in Perfect Dark) and he won't simply cave under pressure from players (the PD Elite had been using it for half a decade, but he still disallowed it). Which means the Barrier Skip probably won't be allowed, which in turn knocks out a heck of a lot of other possible time savers.

That aside, this is all interesting stuff.

Quote:

The early shadow thing is fine. Crossing the desert is fine. Skipping fire/water is fine. Skipping ganon's tower rooms is fine.

[quote]I'm seeing a lot of save-warping in the proposed route here. I hope you understand there will probably be a time penalty each time you do that.

I haven't posted here in since the day that the last OoT thread grew [i]forty pages[/i]. This is because my life cannot consist solely of reading SDA. What I have been doing is transcribing everything I learned about OoT leading up to TSA's 4:57 run onto [url]www.speedrunwiki.com[/url] which is an open-source site full of speed strategies. It seemed to be a much better way to develop and discuss tricks than a single immense thread. [url=http://speedrunwiki.com/Category:The_Legend_of_Zelda:_Ocarina_of_Time]This[/url] is a good place to start, the link in my sig may also be of use. Hop over and lend a hand if you feel like it. Of course, I see there's already a routes wiki going so I don't know.

I am semi-up-to-date on all these new tricks. I am seeing a distressing amount of glitches. I hope we all know that Radix doesn't like glitches (c.f. the Defection Glitch in Perfect Dark) and he won't simply cave under pressure from players (the PD Elite had been using it for half a decade, but he still disallowed it). Which means the Barrier Skip probably won't be allowed, which in turn knocks out a heck of a lot of other possible time savers.

That aside, this is all interesting stuff.[/quote]
[quote]The early shadow thing is fine. Crossing the desert is fine. Skipping fire/water is fine. Skipping ganon's tower rooms is fine.[/quote]

ProtoMonkey

2006-08-07 05:59:33 am

Yeah, Manchester FTW! Smiley

Segment 10 looking nice. It's a shame the bomb jump didn't make it, but cool to see progress again none the less. Keep up the good work TSA!

SamSim

2006-08-07 09:32:59 am

Quote:

Why would there be a time penalty for save-warping? Never seen that... It does however mark your run as "best time with save-warping" or something like that.

About the barrier skip, Radix has already allowed it.

There was a time penalty for save warping back in the day. It seems the rules have been changed since last time I checked, though.

Quote:

generally any glitch that allows you to leave the normal bounds of the game world or to magically teleport between distant locations will be forbidden

I fail to understand how all the glitches here are allowed but the Defection Glitch isn't. The barrier skip is blatantly a much worse abuse of the game engine.

Acryte

Edit history:

Acryte: 2006-08-07 02:01:08 pm

2006-08-07 11:18:33 am

Zelda Scientist®

Lol, it's because he said it is more like the SM64 16 star run... but indeed, it does utilize the game engine's weaknesses, which is how I though of it.

Basically, it is allowed by separate category and won't overwrite a run that doesn't include it. As far as the defection glitch, the fact you are outside for a prolonged period of time, as well as the fact that you are outside the walls (whereas in the barrier skip you are still in there, the graphical textures just haven't been loaded.) So, basically that is the main difference between the 2. Secondly, I think that if so many people hadn't salted the wound w/ the defection glitch, it probably would have changed just like savewarps have, but... persistence (even if justified) can harden ones position on something. All we can ask is to take heed to the wise words of ralph waldo emerson, when he said A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. -- `Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' -- Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."
bleh.

And I believe back in the day, the time penalty wasn't for savewarping, but for deathwarping. Which has changed I do believe.

Lol, it's because he said it is more like the SM64 16 star run... but indeed, it does utilize the game engine's weaknesses, which is how I though of it.

Basically, it is allowed by separate category and won't overwrite a run that doesn't include it. As far as the defection glitch, the fact you are outside for a prolonged period of time, as well as the fact that you are outside the walls (whereas in the barrier skip you are still in there, the graphical textures just haven't been loaded.) So, basically that is the main difference between the 2. Secondly, I think that if so many people hadn't salted the wound w/ the defection glitch, it probably would have changed just like savewarps have, but... persistence (even if justified) can harden ones position on something. All we can ask is to take heed to the wise words of ralph waldo emerson, when he said A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. -- `Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' -- Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood."
bleh.

And I believe back in the day, the time penalty wasn't for savewarping, but for deathwarping. Which has changed I do believe.

KD

Edit history:

KD: 2006-08-07 11:34:11 am

2006-08-07 11:30:10 am

Jealousy™

As Acryte has made clear, I believe there is a distinction being made between leaving the level boundaries, being "outside the level", and glitching through a boundary that is not the outside wall of the level.

If you don't allow going through the void, you technically still have to move through the entire game, even if you can pass through every solid rock that's supposed to stop you. But if you can go through the void, you could theoretically skip the entire game and walk through the void to the ending. Even though this doesn't apply to this game in particular (at least not yet :P) it's in general a reasonable restriction not to be allowed to go outside the levels, don't you think? Because if you're going outside the levels, you're not really playing the game anymore.

c4p7ain c0mp0s7

2006-08-07 07:02:41 pm

Food goes in here

Except for the barrier skip like Acryte said, because you're still in the level, just no textures have been loaded in, giving the illusion that you're outside the level or area. 8)

Fail Boat

Edit history:

Fail Boat: 2006-08-07 09:55:33 pm

2006-08-07 09:53:44 pm

forum lurker

Just got done watching segment 10.

It wasn't bad, but it wasn't good. There were alot of minor mistakes. I'll point out some good/bad stuff that I noticed.

Good:

- Nice backwalking through out the dungeon

- Good boss fight

*Favorite Part*
- Excellent strategy in the block pushing room. I was like "he's gonna get owned by one of those fire keese" yet, they didn't even go near you.

- Nice strategy on the fire keese prior to the block pushing. He always gets me. Angry

Bad:

- Took you forever to get on the ladder at the beginning.

- Why not use the strategies that I did in my video for blowing the walls with a Bombchu?

- Didn't use optimal strategy for the Lizalfos, though you still defeated them quite fast.

- The Bomb Bag Early isn't really that hard but, I won't nag you about it. Tongue

- What was up with all those side-hops in the tunnel?

- In the room with the four platforms after you stepped on the switch, why not jump across the platforms, instead of side-hopping to the bottom then climbing the ladder?

- When you threw the bomb on the ground thing leading to the boss, why not stand on the ground thing with the bomb, while having your shield out, instead of waiting for the bomb to explode then walking over to the hole?

I hate critisizing. Sad

I hope that when you get the bombchu hover down, that you redo this segment. Cheesy

Just got done watching segment 10.

It wasn't bad, but it wasn't good.  There were alot of minor mistakes.  I'll point out some good/bad stuff that I noticed.

Good:

- Nice backwalking through out the dungeon

- Good boss fight

*Favorite Part*
- Excellent strategy in the block pushing room.  I was like "he's gonna get owned by one of those fire keese" yet, they didn't even go near you.

- Nice strategy on the fire keese prior to the block pushing.  He always gets me.  >:(

Bad:

- Took you forever to get on the ladder at the beginning.

- Why not use the strategies that I did in my video for blowing the walls with a Bombchu?

- Didn't use optimal strategy for the Lizalfos, though you still defeated them quite fast.

- The Bomb Bag Early isn't really that hard but, I won't nag you about it.  :P

- What was up with all those side-hops in the tunnel?

- In the room with the four platforms after you stepped on the switch, why not jump across the platforms, instead of side-hopping to the bottom then climbing the ladder?

- When you threw the bomb on the ground thing leading to the boss, why not stand on the ground thing with the bomb, while having your shield out, instead of waiting for the bomb to explode then walking over to the hole?

I hate critisizing. :(

I hope that when you get the bombchu hover down, that you redo this segment.  :D

TSA

2006-08-07 10:05:51 pm

Retired

Yautja and I believe the Bombchu Hover doesn't work on N64, we need somebody to make a non-emu video of it on N64, from "BEFORE" doing the tricks (IE lining up) till reaching the ledge.

AKA

Edit history:

AKA: 2006-08-07 10:34:25 pm

2006-08-07 10:24:00 pm

He's back!

Quote:

Yautja and I believe the Bombchu Hover doesn't work on N64, we need somebody to make a non-emu video of it on N64, from "BEFORE" doing the tricks (IE lining up) till reaching the ledge.

I've managed to do two bombchu hovers in a row and thats on GC which I beleve is harder to do than the N64 version as the shoulder buttons have to be clicked into place. It can be done but it requires insane reflexes, but I do remember you saying that you've never come across a trick that you thought was beyond you but meh.

I watched the latest segment and I say you should definitley redo for two reasons

1. Why didn't you use my version of the armos glitch it saves about 3 seconds

2. Redo the lizard battle, and watch my videos of how to do it, but maybe I should just describe it to you

1. Enter the room do a roll jump; lock on and jump slash
2. Take out deku stick and finish off lizardoz with jump slash
3. Jump left then right onto the platform that the second lizardoz is standing on, it'll evade and jump on the other platform
4. Run to the other platorm that it went onto and do two power crouches to finish it off

Did you try using Acryte's text skip for Dondongo's to avoid the lava pit text?

OK I can forgive you for not wanting to do the bomb hover to the block before the boss since I think even that trick is beyond me.

EDIT: Hey I'm the DEVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :devil: :devil: :devil:

[quote]Yautja and I believe the Bombchu Hover doesn't work on N64, we need somebody to make a non-emu video of it on N64, from "BEFORE" doing the tricks (IE lining up) till reaching the ledge.[/quote]

I've managed to do two bombchu hovers in a row and thats on GC which I beleve is harder to do than the N64 version as the shoulder buttons have to be clicked into place. It can be done but it requires insane reflexes, but I do remember you saying that you've never come across a trick that you thought was beyond you but meh.

I watched the latest segment and I say you should definitley redo for two reasons

1. Why didn't you use my version of the armos glitch it saves about 3 seconds

2. Redo the lizard battle, and watch my videos of how to do it, but maybe I should just describe it to you

1. Enter the room do a roll jump; lock on and jump slash
2. Take out deku stick and finish off lizardoz with jump slash
3. Jump left then right onto the platform that the second lizardoz is standing on, it'll evade and jump on the other platform
4. Run to the other platorm that it went onto and do two power crouches to finish it off

Did you try using Acryte's text skip for Dondongo's to avoid the lava pit text?

OK I can forgive you for not wanting to do the bomb hover to the block before the boss since I think even that trick is beyond me.

EDIT: Hey I'm the DEVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :devil: :devil: :devil:

YautjaElder

2006-08-07 10:27:14 pm

Speed is the key.

Quote:

Yautja and I believe the Bombchu Hover doesn't work on N64, we need somebody to make a non-emu video of it on N64, from "BEFORE" doing the tricks (IE lining up) till reaching the ledge.

Yeah, I definately believe that the hover trick is version specific or something... I haven't tested it on N64, but I have on Gamecube. I'm not anywhere close to getting the same height/length with each backflip as Acryte did in his videos. :-/

UchihaSasuke

2006-08-07 10:57:15 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

btw, which version do you guys own for N64? 1.0 or further?

Acryte

Edit history:

Acryte: 2006-08-08 01:12:09 am

2006-08-08 01:02:14 am

Zelda Scientist®

Well, I just put ijn my 1.1 cart and it worked perfectly. I accidently got hit my the floorrazor and had to go back but I got the 4 bombchu one 1st try. And the same w/ the staricase method to block. that one was also 1st try. They can both be done on N64... it is kind of like the superslide, in that it may seem difficult to perform until you learn the timing and then it becomes easy. It isn't as precise a timing as the superslide though unless you are doing the 3 bombchu method which actually is that precise timewise. I'd suggest trying to use 5 bombchus and then once you get that, you try it w/ 4

I can test it on any though... I have gray 1.0, 1.1, 2x 1.2, and GCN version.

TSA

Edit history:

TSA: 2006-08-08 01:35:25 am

2006-08-08 01:30:18 am

Retired

I'm using.... hmm, Radix said you can use different versions, and 1.0 has that Ganon's Tower/Bottle Adventure trick...so...um...I have a 1.0 Gold so try it on that, but I'm not sure which version I am doing this on Tongue

UchihaSasuke

2006-08-08 02:33:40 am

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

early gray and gold carts are v1.0

i have one of each and Ganondorf's blood is red in both. the blood is red only in v1.0 right?

Manocheese

2006-08-08 02:53:33 am

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

It's red in 1.0 and 1.1 IIRC...

TSA

2006-08-08 02:56:27 am

Retired

Hmm...issue with not redoing 10 now...arrr...

I guess I have to do my redos now before this gets too hard to track.

REDO SEGMENT 4: Use Acryte's Skulltula Skip, Use 1 Slingshot Shot extra (on another Skulltula on vine wall) to even count out to Segment 5 and on.

REDO SEGMENT 6: Nothing here, no items used. Use Side hop, though, rather than Jumpslash, to get through gate side.

REDO SEGMENT 10: Acryte explained I need to let go of Slingshot later in backflip, so I will retry Bomb Bag earlier. If made easy, will also try to include Block trick. On way to staircase room from switch, I will use platforms to cross, then roll jump to ladder.

Alright, so 3 segments to redo before going on.

Acryte

Edit history:

Acryte: 2006-08-08 03:00:05 am

2006-08-08 02:58:06 am

Zelda Scientist®

just do the debug code and check the rom's timestamp. I labeled each of my carts with their timestamp on the back of them.

Do CC until it freezes... or use any other freezing methods to where the yellow bar will appear in the top left part of the screen. Then press (not all at once but 1 then + another then + another):

L + R + Z
D-Up + C-Down
C-Up + D-Down
D-Left + C-Left
C-Right + D-Right
A + B + Start

v1.0 = 98-10-21 04:56:31
v1.1 = 98-10-26 10:58:45
v1.2 = 98-11-12 18:17:03

killswitcher

Edit history:

killswitcher: 2006-08-08 03:25:25 am

2006-08-08 03:23:55 am

I know this isn't a big thing, but after you kill King Dodongo, why not do the quick roll or backwalk to the teleport instead of just walking? I mean if we're trying to shave off every second here...

Other than that I thought it was good. I'm not an expert like most people who post in here but I enjoyed it.

Edit: I know I don't need to specify but I'm talking about segment 10.

TSA

2006-08-08 03:59:01 am

Retired

Actually, I tried to reach the teleport SLOWLY, but unfortunately, it has some time delay before you can actually enter it or something...so backwalking to it is pointless...you have to wait a bit.

killswitcher

Edit history:

killswitcher: 2006-08-08 05:28:55 am

2006-08-08 05:27:13 am

TSA just out of curiosity, are you still here in Austin?

Acryte

2006-08-08 05:45:51 am

Zelda Scientist®

I thought he moved to cali.

killswitcher

2006-08-08 05:51:23 am

Yeah I think I remember reading that too but I was just curious.

TSA

Edit history:

TSA: 2006-08-08 07:00:57 am

2006-08-08 06:01:23 am

Retired

I moved to California, yeah.

AKA

Edit history:

AKA: 2006-08-08 09:57:19 am

2006-08-08 09:56:55 am

He's back!

Is TSA skipping the slingshot,? If so how will he do the diamond bridge room in Spirit?

I have to admit I now always use the sidehop in Gerudo fortress to reach the other side and it hasn't failed me yet, since YK doesn't always jump off that edge and its way quicker as well. I can also 50% of the time get the backflip during the bomb sequence to open up Dondongo's as well which saves about ten seconds.

The other solluttion would be to get the adult wallet and buy bombchu's off the dealer, but thats very time consuming and probally wouldn't justify skipping the slingshot.