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Enhasa: 2006-11-04 09:02:43 pm
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
Alright, I beat this game several weeks ago. The best way to sum it up without writing an essay is that, for better or worse, it's the best Zelda game I've ever played, lol.

I don't think 100% is really gonna be feasible, as it would take forever and a half. But FWIW, I think the obvious way to define 100% would be all 100 stray beads. To get them all, you need to get all the skills and other things, and it's a pretty inclusive thing to shoot for.

The best comparison for this game in all aspects seems to be Wind Waker. I'm afraid the run will share the same aspects such as unskippable cutscenes and being mostly unbreakable. Really the most sequence breaking I can see is with some of the petals you vine into.

Some things, sorry for being disorganized but I'm typing as soon as I see them:
- L2 map lags, and you should know where you're going anyway. Tongue
- I figured out the demon fangs from the loading screen, but I really wish I knew about square skip earlier. :-/
- Um, I'm pretty sure the fastest way to go across water is something else: charge jump, double jump, air tackle, lily, repeat. I don't remember life before double jump, so I don't know with just the charge jump. Air tackle is pretty crappy as far as speed goes and not sure you'd ever use it to go places unless you charge jump first. (The charge jump is maybe implicit in what you said though.)
- On a similar note, jumping seems pretty unnecessary for battles. If anyone's flying, just seems best to slash them down.
- I agree with everyone on minimalism.
- For the Canine Warriors, I think the correct path is to do Cutters and Sasa, then Mermaid Coin to the dojo to Kamiki, then when you're in Agata, you can make it nighttime, then go back to Princess Fuse.
- Feeding is obviously out, minus where it's required of course.
- Yes, the best use for praise is to refill HP and especially ink.
- I guess I'm the only one, but anecdotally I think the rosary is a better main weapon than the mirror. When you get all up in enemies, you do a ridiculous number of hits and damage. You might need the upgrade for it to be this good though. Rosary is a good subweapon for some bosses too, like 9 Tails and the owls (I think).
- OTOH, like with Mega Man, glaive is good because you can charge during the downtime. This happens with bosses a good bit.
- There's another kind of warping with the save mirrors, but it might take too long to get that brush technique, since you have to pay 80 demon fangs, but then also watch the stupid cinema IIRC.
- Walk on water equipment (that costs demon fangs) is obvious for a 100% run.
- I do think the Peace Bell should be bought. You'll get enough fangs naturally, and it might even save time in the end from not having to dodge scrolls anymore (straighter paths, all that).
- I don't think it's worth it changing it to day all the time to make scrolls less aggressive, since you need to draw and then watch the day changing animation.
- I'm actually thinking the opposite of Psychochild with the yen. I guess I'm forgetting everything, but it seems to me like there's actually very little that you really need to buy. You get a lot of weapons without having to buy them. I think the damage items and things like infinite ink, or maybe even the power increase item, might be better ways to spend money.
- Mermaid Coins seem faster to me than getting that technique that lets you do the same thing basically. Mainly because watching those technique screens is the cry.

Good luck to whoever eventually decides to do this! While the route itself might be fairly linear on the whole, deciding what to buy and how to use it, probably won't be so easy.



Sidenote: Anyone else confused by these 2 things? First off, that the difficulty was so low, given Clover Studio's other games. Also (I haven't played God Hand), I thought the music for VJ was completely unmemorable and not very good at all, but some of the music for Okami was the most unexpectedly incredible music ever, especially at fitting the game. My absolute favorites included (I have to bold for another tier since there's too many): Bamboo Girl's 2 themes, Sakuya's theme, Himiko's theme, Kamiki Village, Agata Forest, cursed zone music, that song you hear when you fix someplace like Hana Valley, the Capital nobles quarter, the orca riding music, celestial plane people, the song during the climax, and I could go on while still forgetting some great ones. I just sat in the inner Sasa Sanctuary in awe at how beautiful everything was, and feeding the tigers seemed appropriate too.

Also, I've never seen a vocal version for a song be so much worse than the instrumental version, as the song that plays during the climax and credits. Not even close.
You don't think it's worth it to change to day? Then just draw the sun whenever it's almost night, it skips both animations.
Edit history:
Enhasa: 2006-11-04 10:56:06 pm
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
Oh, it's completely worth abusing day and night change. What I said is I don't think it's worth changing anything just to make the demon scrolls less aggressive. Better to just get Peace Bell or just avoid them.

Edit: If you're about to see the night animation, and drawing the sun means you see the day animation instead and go on to the next day, I think you're right (at least until you get Peace Bell). I didn't know it was possible to change from day into day. :-/



Edit for MissileWaster below: Wow, that's awesome. Dunno why I never realized it worked that way.
Quote:
Edit: If you're about to see the night animation, and drawing the sun means you see the day animation instead and go on to the next day, I think you're right (at least until you get Peace Bell). I didn't know it was possible to change from day into day. :-/

If you draw the sun and it's day time, it restarts it from the top of the daytime. You don't see either animation. It basically just turns back the clock, I guess. I do it every so often just so that I don't have to see the animation of going to night.
Been playing around so more (Cleared the game today in fact) and... I see a few things I've already said before pop up here and there.  Mainly, the charge/double jump/air tackle Lily is the best.  Also, I noticed that the game often gives you too much money naturally, and that Exorcism Scrolls I are for the most part, painfully inexpensive to the point where they MUST be abused. 

Also, just a small note here and there.

1.)  On Orochi's fights, you can easily work on getting two heads drunk at once by priming one head into an attack, running in front of a second head to prime ITS attack, and while it's performing THAT attack, do a waterspout on the other one's head.  It works great.

2.)  Along with using load screens to get fangs, it's ideal if you try to figure out exactly what enemies respond to what celestial finishers in a max% run or just an any % that would otherwise benefit from a high-demon fang costing item.  Basic Imps drop demon fangs if you hit them with a Power Slash for instance once you kill them. 

And Okami's definitely a good game.  I'm working on doing the closest I can get to a 100% completion on the title.  Or, at the very least, trying to get an S-Rank on Praise so that I can get that REALLY awesome Ammy look.
Ride on shooting star
There's a guide on GameFAQs with all the Floral Finishers for enemies.  It also lists how many Demon Fangs each enemy gives out, which could be useful.
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
Quote:
And Okami's definitely a good game.  I'm working on doing the closest I can get to a 100% completion on the title.  Or, at the very least, trying to get an S-Rank on Praise so that I can get that REALLY awesome Ammy look.

Strangely enough, I never had an easier time getting 100% in a game, and I'm far from a completionist normally since I don't have great tolerance for BS (it helps the sidequests in this game are pretty easy). I seriously had about 95 beads at the end, and only had to try to find 4, which completely surprised me by how short it took. I don't think I'm so smart or anything like that, it's like: you know how sometimes you just get in a groove where you feel like you completely know how a design team or a testmaker or whoever is thinking? Like that.

I got all S ranks, was rather surprised, and said "oh." Good thing they didn't have a time category, because I do things like leave my PS2 on overnight instead of finding somewhere to save.
Edit history:
Psychochild: 2006-11-05 06:27:01 am
Quote:
Strangely enough, I never had an easier time getting 100% in a game, and I'm far from a completionist normally since I don't have great tolerance for BS (it helps the sidequests in this game are pretty easy). I seriously had about 95 beads at the end, and only had to try to find 4, which completely surprised me by how short it took. I don't think I'm so smart or anything like that, it's like: you know how sometimes you just get in a groove where you feel like you completely know how a design team or a testmaker or whoever is thinking? Like that.

I got all S ranks, was rather surprised, and said "oh." Good thing they didn't have a time category, because I do things like leave my PS2 on overnight instead of finding somewhere to save.


I was horribly impatient when I was playing through the game mostly because of... the ungodly slow text.  I loved the game, I want to and currently very much enjoying my second playthrough, and I'm ready to 100% this title, but the SLOW ASS speed of text really made me rush through the game more so than I normally do with games of this type.

Funny that. 
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
Actually, I am completely not a fan of the Zelda style action adventure genre, and that is one of the reasons why. People complain about the RPG genre being tedious, but in this day and age, I find action adventure games to be much worse. RPGs are trending more towards skippable cutscenes, interesting battles, and less minigames and fetch quests. While on the other hand, it seems this genre is trending towards even more unskippable text and cutscenes, and more and more fetch quests and doing stupid shit for villagers.

I wish I'd known about holding on to square.

With me, I would do some easy sidequest, and then say "well I might as well do that other easy sidequest," and pretty soon I'd done everything without really trying. I'm sure if I was actually going for 100%, it would be more annoying that way. Wink
Edit history:
slowbro: 2006-11-12 11:22:50 pm
What was the name of the website with video game plot videos?  I want to do one for this game (and do my best to speedrun while the story isn't being playing out).

I really enjoy this game!  And even I have been able to find opportunities to skip short cutscenes (usually by drawing something when I haven't quite entered the room where it has to be drawn).  I also found skippable battles in rooms inside the Oni Island stage (by walking way around the edge of the room).  Heh, that's all I have to add speedrun-wise.

I will be very impressed if people get the game under 7 hours when not in new game +.
stuckgamer.com
Edit history:
slowbro: 2006-11-14 01:45:02 am
Thanks!

Also I am curious if anyone might consider speedrunning the timed minigames where the wolf runs through Yoshpet forest as fast as she can.  Personally I really like that particular minigame.  Of course we'd need definite rules.  Heck, I'd seriously offer bounties if the competition got good in running each section of the forest.

... But I bet that's the kind of thing that would not be accepted until a full run of the game is posted ... which will probably be a long long time.  Oh well.

I can't help but notice that New Game + is seriously designed to be speedrun, all the conversations skippable and all.  But yeah, I know, not until a full run of the game on normal mode once again.
Edit history:
trihex: 2006-11-15 04:34:34 am
Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!
Sorry for such a lack of replies towards everything in here. The holiday season has kicked in, and (as if I wasn't preoccupied before) I'm way too far behind on this game compared to everyone else (5:45:xx at last save).

So, now I'm officially cancelling my involvement in trying to speedrun this. I hope whoever else has been trying or is planning to soon will produce something truely wonderful.

Wink

EDIT: I've edited the title. I'll edit it with whoever's taking on the project now with the proper "100%" "any%" or "min%" title whenever someone tells me so.
boss
Next week I'll be taking care of an any% run probably. Probably...  Tongue
Edit history:
slowbro: 2006-11-27 04:32:23 am
Well, I'm gonna try to help.  I just got through the first third of the game again; here are the minor skips I have found that I can remember

Cave of Nagi - right after restoring the statue go down the stairs and jump to the left over some rocks and take to the water, to avoid a fight.  Then at the bottom of the next set of stairs go far to the left  to avoid another battle.

Kamiki - Right near the start, after drawing the Sun in the sky on the high platform, instead of running down the twisting stairs just run forward a bit and then jump back into town.

Hana Valley - On the way out, when approaching the dancing imps jump to the right into the water immediately when you have a chance.

Shinshu Field - It is not necessary to visit all the places marked on the map.

Taka Pass - When you're about to reach the Guardian Sapling don't repair the high bridge, just Bloom the sapling from the other side of the broken bridge.

Moon Cave-
-Chef's room - Draw the vines to lift the lid from the hallway, before the room-entry cinema occurs.  Actually it might be hard to save time with that one.
-Right after hitting the eye switch to open the floor, look straight up and slash the upper left corner of the screen.  You'll hit the Imp on the lift and he'll come down to give you a ride.  Or just jump down and dash, which sounds extremely dangerous.
-room with the four eye switches - Skirt around the left edge of the room to avoid the fight.
-You can operate the cannon without having crossed the wind platforms.
-The enemy just past the cannonable wall can be skipped by hugging the right wall.  You've got to pass him twice.  It might be best to just fight him.

edit: more:

Ryoshima Coast -
-Ignore the barrel.  Drag water up to the pool around the Guardian Sapling without having jumped up to the top level to avoid a very short cinema.
-Jump up onto Moon Turret without ever standing on the ground extremely close to it, to avoid a bit of dialogue.

Ghost Ship -
-After breaking down the door to the room with the hole in the ceiling, draw the Sun while still in the hallway to avoid the room-entry cinema.
-Cut the cord holding the barrel before making it all the way up the ramp, to avoid a short cinema.  I recommend doing it while in the water.

Imperial Palace - After leaving the room where you learn Veil of Mist, don't go forward at all.  Go along the wall right to the platform spider.  Avoid a battle this way.

N. Ryoshima Coast -
-Approach Urashima and the bullies but then don't talk to him.  Run not quite all the way to the pier and draw the Sun (no need to actually be on the pier, just close).
-At Watcher's Cape walk just barely far enough to go through the arch and then spin the galaxy, to avoid a short cinema.

Catcall Tower -
-Make it to the top without ever landing on the clouds to avoid Issun's text.  But then you have to see a treasure chest animation.  I don't know which way is faster, landing on a cloud or not landing on a cloud.
-Don't go all the way to the top, just feed the cat and go down (probably obvious but ...)

When running to Rao's building (forget what it's called) -
All the cutscenes with Rao leading you can be skipped except the last one.  Double jump over the left side of both the first and second barriers around the building, run around the left side of the building and keep going until Rao appears and disappears into the rock wall.

Inside the Water Dragon - When returning to the dragon orb's room after the Dragon is flooded with red liquid there's no need to go all the way to the platform; drench the orb in red liquid from the lilypad just after entering the room.

Oni Island -
-Draw the statue's lightning-bolt arrow before taking a step into the room to avoid the cinema.
-After using the key to open the big door, run just a little past the two treasure chests, direct the camera slightly upward and electrify the huge statue, to avoid a short room-entry cinema.
-After crossing one electrical path up high in the big room with a spider, skip the second path-ahead cinema by jumping diagonally to the next electrical path.
-Juggle the two keys in that same room, keep switching between them, so that the lightning key doesn't disappear and you don't have to go back and get it.
-At least three battles in rooms are skippable by running around the edge of the room.  Edit: It's the big middle room of the puzzle with a spider, and the very next two big rooms after that.  From the last of those rooms I can reach the flower without meeting the rock wall guy like someone said earlier, but the door is shut because I haven't raced the scrap of paper yet, so I don't know if vining to the flower at that point is useful or not.

Shinshu Field (after Oni Island) - Travel to just past the last little cliff on the way up, and zap the old building from there (going any farther further triggers a quick cutscene).

Wawku Shrine -
-In the room (hallway?) where the ice crystals first appear, freeze them without running all the way up to them to avoid a cinema.
-Operate the blizzard machine thingy from a little extra distance away, to avoid the cinema.  And of course it is not necessary to enter the cave with the solution on the floor.
-In the battle against both mecha-owl-thingies, pull back on Oki immediately when an owl becomes stunned for the first time.  Pulling fast enough means Oki doesn't take the time to instruct you to do so.


... a tip (that may be well-known)
When reaching the top of a stairway, often the wolf leaps a little on his own and loses his speed.  To avoid this and keep your speed, in many cases jump as you are nearing the top of the stairway.


... and a "rule"
I think that whenever the 'hurry up' music starts, there is no using mermaid springs or savepoint-warping.  If there are any exceptions to this "rule" maybe someone could mention it.



edit: I don't think I'll ever be able to speedrun this on a new save slot.  There would be so many more variables, strategies, etc etc and the enemies would probably get deadly.  But one interesting thing about this game is that it is very EASY and still enjoyable to speedrun on New Game +; item management and fighting are basically null, so you're left with the game's fun platform elements and boss strategies to deal with.

I seriously recommend that even people that will never make an attempt at a speedrun of this for SDA still try speedrunning New Game +.  I fit right into that group - I think I will never produce an SDA-worthy speedrun of this game, but if even one person says they're interested in seeing it then within a week or two I will take a shot at a speedrun skipping all cinemas (which NG+ lets you do) and utilizing every advantage (that I know of) NG+ gives you.  I think the game designers probably created New Game + with speedrunning in mind.

It's a great game for someone who wants to be a casual speedrunner of a game.
I beat this earlier today and it is a great game.  If NewGame+ allows you to skip the unskippable text as stated earlier in this thread then I think the run should be done as NewGame+ just to take out well over an hour of dialogue/cutscenes that are pointless for speedrunning purposes.
Edit history:
slowbro: 2006-11-17 09:11:45 am
Yes, way more than an hour ...

But New Game + also opens up the possibility of using some darn powerful items right from the start, including one that probably literally makes 90% of the game's enemies one-hit Sad ... and the possibility of starting with hundreds of demon fangs and the items that demon fangs buy ...

IMHO This game should go like all the others do at SDA: don't allow a New Game + run until a good normal-stats run is there.  But obviously that's only my opinion.

Hmm ... there could be a special rules new game + run where the player is not allowed to use weapons and items until they would have normally picked them up in the game ... cutscene- and conversation-skipping without superpower ... probably not but who knows?

I don't like it but it will probably be many months before SDA has an Okami run.  But that's not stopping me from making videos right now ... in case anybody's interested I am making a video where I am trying to speedrun New Game + without using the most powerful item I know of (to make the enemies at least have a chance), except I am purposely leaving in the story even though I don't have to.  It's not meant to be a speedrun so much as a video for people that will never play the game.  So far I have recorded the first 4/7 of the game.  I think I will be able to link to the first three segments here tomorrow, because by then they will be uploaded to Archive.  Just a warning, the video quality isn't spectacular.  I have no idea at all whether or not anybody will want to watch my video.

I know, I'm on an unhealthy Okami binge.  I know it's too early to be talking speedruns to go on SDA.  Probably way too early.  But maybe my discussion of minor skips (just remembered another one: double-jump onto Moon Turret without ever standing a little bit underneath it to avoid the short cinema) and possibly my video will eventually help someone who does seriously speedrun it.  Hopefully my video won't just instill bad habits ...  Like for example there are a ton of things I have never tried.  So far I only use reflectors as weapons; I've ignored the other two kinds completely.
Current and future segments of my pseudo-speedrun without skipping the cinemas are at

http://www.archive.org/details/OkamiNewGamePlusPlaythroughWithCinemas

But the first segment doesn't start out that well Sad because at the time I did it, after drawing the Sun the first time I didn't know I could jump right into town so I walked all the way around the staircase.
boss
Whoa, stop for a while and let me enjoy the game a little more. I worked on three different projects... But then I ran into Okami.  Tongue I'll start 'working' on this game from monday probably.
Edit history:
slowbro: 2006-11-18 03:50:21 am
Don't rush on account of me, this is a game worth taking the time to enjoy. 

edit: I just looked through the early parts of this topic; there is so much stuff in this game that I don't know.  I don't know if my videos will be helpful at all or not.

edit: I'm keeping my 'minor skips' post updated with any new things I find.
Edit history:
slowbro: 2006-11-20 06:13:47 pm
Aaack, (for my new-game-plus video including the story scenes) I chose to end each segment when the game asks "Would you like to save" after a boss.  Segment 6 took me 2:30:00!

I saved, so I won't be redoing that segment any more.  It includes more mistakes than my other segments (though parts of it went well).  Sorry, to anyone that's watching the video, segment 6 is of lower gameplay quality than the other segments.

I'm thinking I might not do the cutscene-skipping speedrun after I get done with this video; I'm feeling Okami-d out.

And I'm looking forward to Groobo's project!  (I hope I have been some small help for it.)

edit: All 7 segments of my video are at Archive now.
Edit history:
groobo: 2006-11-20 03:43:43 pm
boss
Phew, I've finished the game today. The camera can be a bitch when you try to do things fast at certain places.

Also I've finished the first 8 segments of my run (still just a test run tho). Here's a little time highlight on every segment: (new game, not ng+)

1. save, after intro ~ 0:15
2. save, after tutorial, at kamiki village ~ 0:25
3. save, at hana valley ~ 0:40
4. save, after hana valley ~ 0:53
5. save, after reviving the big ol' tree ~ 1:05
6. save, at tsuta ruins ~ 1:26
7. save, before the boss fight ~ 1:43
8. save, after the spider queen fight ~ 1:51

I've used only some minor tricks, I didn't find any sequence breaks yet.

Is my time good or bad? Maybe someone discovered more tricks and would like to share with us...  Roll Eyes

EDIT: I was looking for something on gamefaqs and accidentally found a way to skip the oni island blockhead.
Edit history:
slowbro: 2006-11-20 07:26:57 pm
I'm going to try going from new game to Spider Queen to see how long it takes me, but I think you're going considerably faster than I could.

How did you handle reaching the pyrotechnist's house at night?  I had thought about blooming Kamiki's trees before going there but I don't know if that would work or not.

(Of course I hope you get input from people besides just me :S )

edit: About skipping the blockhead, I'll just mention that the fight in the room in question is the third of three in a row that can be skipped by running around the edge of the room.  I don't know how much time if any is saved by skipping the blockhead though.  I haven't managed to do it yet; I have trouble getting from the flower to the spot where the final card race begins.
Edit history:
groobo: 2006-11-20 10:11:52 pm
boss
I've changed from ng to ng+ (w/o using any holy artifacts beside peace bell) because there's no chance that the final time goes below 7 hours.

There's a house near the moon cave, the guy that lives there gives you a 'wanted list'. When you go out of his house after getting the list, day will turn into night and a battle will trigger.

Quote:
(Of course I hope you get input from people besides just me :S )

That's my problem... always the same. Whenever I try running a game, after posting in a certain thread everyone just runs away. It would be nice if Okami wouldn't be a one/two man project. I thought that Okami is quite popular.

As for my ng+ run my time is ~ 2:59 after the fight with Blight. (4th boss) It's hard to estimate the final time but sub 6:00 should do the work. What was your time after blight and after yami? (you've finished a ng+ run if I'm not mistaking)

Good job finding those battle sequence breaks. They save around 20-30s each. (the tougher battles) Keep up the good work!  Wink
Edit history:
slowbro: 2006-11-21 12:55:45 am
Yeah, I haven't really finished a NG+ speedrun.  Well I did a while ago but it was not serious at all.  The only video I did was with the cinemas included, a video for people that want to see the story.

Sub 3 hours after Blight sounds quite good to me.  I am pretty much convinced you're moving along faster than I would.

I'm guessing you saw my 'minor skips' post; I think that's most of the help I will be able to be.  It lists all the places I've found where you can draw something before entering a room to avoid a short room-entry cinema, and some other little things.  It's probably mostly stuff you've discovered on your own.  It's my long post on page 3.

There were so many people adding their input on the first two pages of the topic Sad I wish people were still helping.