Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen

Dragondarch

Edit history:

Dragondarch: 2009-01-11 12:10:37 am

2009-01-11 12:05:07 am

Pudding%

Any% is 1 segment from completion. I think it'll be about 6 minutes faster than the last one. Skipped leveling completely. Diablo is extremely difficult at this low a level, though, since tarots don't hit him for squat. Also, bought Jokers earlier on than last time. I think it actually cost me time on a couple stages between the pulling and the longer attack animation of the cards themselves, but on some bosses it was unavoidable (Mizal, Gemini twins, etc.)

Have to backtrack to Shangrila to buy more Jokers before entering Temple Shalina. I have 17 left before buying more, and no matter how lucky I am, I've determined that 14 cards is not enough to have enough "oomph" for Diablo after having to blow a few on Gares/Rashidi.
Vs. Gares I need one Fool/Judgement/Sun. I can also burn a World card here to avoid needing 2 Empress for Diablo.
Vs. Rashidi I need one Fool, one World, one Star (even Debonair has trouble hitting him). I have 2 Chariot on hand for damage, which actually happens to be the best against him.
Vs. Diablo I need 1 Star, 1/2 Empress, and as much damage as possible. If he casts Quake, it's an automatic loss. Opinion Leader has a bit over 170 HP, which isn't enough to survive it.

I've finally finalized the 100% route as well. With any luck (er...a lot of luck) I can have it done not too long from now. The only unknown is whether my strategy for raising my reputation back up after recruiting Deneb will work in the small timeframe I'll have to work with.

Any% is 1 segment from completion. I think it'll be about 6 minutes faster than the last one. Skipped leveling completely. Diablo is extremely difficult at this low a level, though, since tarots don't hit him for squat. Also, bought Jokers earlier on than last time. I think it actually cost me time on a couple stages between the pulling and the longer attack animation of the cards themselves, but on some bosses it was unavoidable (Mizal, Gemini twins, etc.)

Have to backtrack to Shangrila to buy more Jokers before entering Temple Shalina. I have 17 left before buying more, and no matter how lucky I am, I've determined that 14 cards is not enough to have enough "oomph" for Diablo after having to blow a few on Gares/Rashidi.
Vs. Gares I need one Fool/Judgement/Sun. I can also burn a World card here to avoid needing 2 Empress for Diablo.
Vs. Rashidi I need one Fool, one World, one Star (even Debonair has trouble hitting him). I have 2 Chariot on hand for damage, which actually happens to be the best against him.
Vs. Diablo I need 1 Star, 1/2 Empress, and as much damage as possible. If he casts Quake, it's an automatic loss. Opinion Leader has a bit over 170 HP, which isn't enough to survive it.

I've finally finalized the 100% route as well. With any luck (er...a lot of luck) I can have it done not too long from now. The only unknown is whether my strategy for raising my reputation back up after recruiting Deneb will work in the small timeframe I'll have to work with.

getter77

2009-01-11 05:12:39 am

100% runs=great to watch

These runs are going to be SO insane to watch all things considered. 8)

Blaze on man!

Dragondarch

2009-01-11 02:19:26 pm

Pudding%

Temple Shalina clear, I have it clocked as 4:31 faster than my last run. Temple Shalina itself was a little over 2 minutes slower due to needing extra cards.

I wound up with 4 extra tarot after Diablo (all Magician, the lowest damage dealer against him), but I'm allowing it because the RNG was being kind during the battle - attacks were all hitting for normal to the high end of their damage range, which is unusual.
Magician is about 20ish.
Justice is about 30ish.
Judgement is about 50ish. (Both hit for 60+ this time)
Opinion Leader hits for 40ish.
Debonair hits for 50ish.
Norn hits for 30ish. (The only shot that hit lower than usual)

I just need to the audio commentary now. I figure this is probably a good game to do one for since there's a LOT of time spent watching me pull tarot cards and moving across the map.

getter77

2009-01-11 04:35:02 pm

100% runs=great to watch

:happy dance: 8)

I quite look forward to the commentary as well...may well watch these runs twice once with and without it depending on how the music drowns out and such. Never saw to the end of this game so... Cheesy

Enhasa

2009-01-13 11:08:12 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote from Dragondarch:

Skipped leveling completely.

PS congrats!

Rainman7

2009-01-20 02:13:39 am

Can't wait to see this!

arthurgolden

2009-01-23 11:11:42 pm

Excellent! I'm looking forward to it.

Ascetic Swordsman

Edit history:

Ascetic Swordsman: 2009-03-15 02:34:03 am

2009-03-15 02:04:07 am

I checked and this game still needs verifiers. It was added to the virtual console recently so any Wii owners could get the game to help it get through. I'd do it myself but my Wii is 350 kilometers away. I know it will take a while to learn enough about the game to be a verifier for it, but it'll be worth it. Anyone who's played the game before can get it so they can refresh their memory of it too. If you have played it already, start recomending it to all your friends.

edit: I know the emulated version on wii is going to be a little different. It might not have any lag for example. It's still easier than getting a SNES and the cart itself.

ZenicReverie

Edit history:

ZenicReverie: 2009-03-15 09:45:15 pm

2009-03-15 06:51:32 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Ascetic_Swordsman:

I checked and this game still needs verifiers. It was added to the virtual console recently so any Wii owners could get the game to help it get through. I'd do it myself but my Wii is 350 kilometers away. I know it will take a while to learn enough about the game to be a verifier for it, but it'll be worth it. Anyone who's played the game before can get it so they can refresh their memory of it too. If you have played it already, start recomending it to all your friends.

edit: I know the emulated version on wii is going to be a little different. It might not have any lag for example. It's still easier than getting a SNES and the cart itself.

It was also on the PS1, although the virtual console version is probably the easiest to get.

Dragondarch

2009-03-15 08:33:43 am

Pudding%

Actually, it has enough verifiers, but my DVD recorder isn't working properly right now. More specifically, I can't get the run off of it to send to Nate to get it encoded. I know it's the DVD drive on it that's broken, but with it in that state, that recorder itself fails to boot up properly. On the other hand, I think the Hard Drive is still working fine, so if I can get my hands on another DVD Recorder of the same make/model, I should be able to transplant the Hard drive from this one into the new one and go from there...

However, I don't have the money to get a new one at the moment, so this is going to be a "wait until I can afford to do something" situation Undecided

getter77

2009-03-15 08:53:03 am

100% runs=great to watch

Ouch...hang in there!

Enhasa

2009-03-16 12:00:04 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Yeah I knew about this, should have posted to update for people I guess, sorry.

DVD recorders strike again! Sad

GreatMax

2009-08-31 11:39:06 pm

OMG, real meaning, omega was da s...

Quote from Dragondarch:

My definition of 100%:

All maps cleared.
All special characters recruited EXCEPT Galf.
World Ending (Galf ruins this).
-All 12 Zodiac Stones.
-3 Mystic Treasures (Grail, Armband, Brunhild).
-Near-Full to Full Reputation.
-Opinion Leader with High (near 100) Alignment and Charisma.

I know this topic is old but I'm posting to let you know there's someone in the world who did this. I remember this jewel and still own if for the SNES.

I also was looking through the site and noticed nobody has done a speed run of any kind. I don't think it would be that challenging because of the tarot cards. A non-tarot card run would be an idea. Although there are many ways to have fun with it.

How badly do we need a speed run of a game this short imo? Sorry if I'm out of my element but I haven't done speed runs in a while, and if you pause when a dark flash goes over my stats you can see what I did if it means anything. Grin

[quote="Dragondarch"]
My definition of 100%:

All maps cleared.
All special characters recruited EXCEPT Galf.
World Ending (Galf ruins this).
-All 12 Zodiac Stones.
-3 Mystic Treasures (Grail, Armband, Brunhild).
-Near-Full to Full Reputation.
-Opinion Leader with High (near 100) Alignment and Charisma.
[/quote]

I know this topic is old but I'm posting to let you know there's someone in the world who did this.  I remember this jewel and still own if for the SNES.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D63Yr_QFk_4&feature=channel_page

I also was looking through the site and noticed nobody has done a speed run of any kind.  I don't think it would be that challenging because of the tarot cards.  A non-tarot card run would be an idea.  Although there are many ways to have fun with it.

How badly do we need a speed run of a game this short imo?  Sorry if I'm out of my element but I haven't done speed runs in a while, and if you pause when a dark flash goes over my stats you can see what I did if it means anything. ;D

Dragondarch

2009-09-01 03:30:48 am

Pudding%

Quote from GreatMax:

How badly do we need a speed run of a game this short imo? Sorry if I'm out of my element but I haven't done speed runs in a while, and if you pause when a dark flash goes over my stats you can see what I did if it means anything. Grin

To start, you may want to read everything on page 6 of this thread...that should answer this question.

Carcinogen

2009-09-05 03:40:46 pm

Weren't you the guy who yammered on about his level 19 FFVI game a while back? =|

Either way, I got this game for VC a few days ago and quite frankly I can't believe I hadn't played this before. Sooner or later I'm gonna want to get the other games in the series, although I should probably finish this one first. =D

Looking forward to watching the run!

Rainman7

2009-09-08 08:02:32 pm

Quote from GreatMax:

How badly do we need a speed run of a game this short imo?

This game is not short. Good, fun... but short? Ogre Battle is one of the more convoluted and dynamic games for snes.

The reason a speed run of this game HASN'T been completed and posted yet, has very little to do with 'shortness'. If anything, if this game were shorter it would've increased the chances of someone getting a worthwhile speed run done by now. Unless there is good motivation or reason, people don't generally take on RPG's of this length for speed runs is b/c they're too damn long or it's just an exercise in frustration, bordering on madness.

I'd love to still see if there is ground being made.

ZenicReverie

2009-09-09 12:03:02 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

other games? how different is the 64 game? Also, the only other game I know of is Tactics Ogre. Is there another one I'm missing?

Dragondarch: Do you have a cost estimate for either a new DVD recorder to put the HDD into, or are you going to be paying someone to try and recover the data?

I think a 'save the run' fund could be beneficial here. Wink

Zugzwang

2009-09-09 12:35:39 pm

I was unaware of your senario as well. I would put your Make/Model in the Trading Post section (NEED). It would be a long shot if someone had it on hand, but the people who frequent there might be able to check around, maybe find one for cheep with a bad hard drive Wink

Worth a try, one versus many.

Dragondarch

2009-09-09 12:58:04 pm

Pudding%

I actually have the money to get one now, but haven't seen any on eBay or anywhere else (except one site with a couple new, but honestly I'm not interested in paying $200+ for an new old DVD recorder).

I had actually considered making a post in the Trading Post forum, but I think I'm going to give eBay a little bit more time...

...bleh, screw it. I'll make the post later on today.

The funny thing is that Ogre Battle isn't the only run stuck on there...I still have the entirety of my Lufia II and M&L runs saved on it, along with 2 segments of a stalled Aria of Sorrow run, Legacy of the Wizard, Goonies II, and most importantly the Air Fortress run I did shortly after completing Ogre Battle but didn't get a chance to transfer to my PC.

Rainman7

2009-09-10 04:14:18 am

Quote from ZenicReverie:

other games? how different is the 64 game? Also, the only other game I know of is Tactics Ogre. Is there another one I'm missing?

The n64 ogre battle is slow-paced and not card-based. The story is generally longer, and the party is briefed by Warren in EVERY mission which drags things out.

The battles play differently from snes ogre battle in that parties characters move quite a bit slower over the world map. Even at the highest speed levels, the game CRAWLS. Maybe I just suck though, so you can take that with you... or not.

(many of the options, such as speeding up or slowing down game time are carried over from Ogre Battle, unless memory serves me incorrectly.)

There are also a few Tactics Ogre games for GBA... though I consider these tactics titles a spin off from the ogre battle universe.

Enhasa

2009-09-16 03:46:24 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote from ZenicReverie:

other games? how different is the 64 game? Also, the only other game I know of is Tactics Ogre. Is there another one I'm missing?

Here are the games (this is based on memory so I could be wrong but I've repeated it enough so I'm fairly sure):

Similar to the grandiose wankery of Xenosaga, Ogre Battle was originally planned as an 8-part episodic series.

Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen (1993, SNES, ep5) - closer to RTS style with turn-based battles
Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together (1995, SNES, ep7) - traditional TRPG style with individual turns instead of sides

At this point, the designer/creator Matsuno was signed away from Quest to work for Square to make FFT. He took other top Quest employees with him. He did the story of OB64 as a guest. At Square, he later worked on Vagrant Story, FFTA, and then FF12, leaving during the middle of FF12 development (officially due to health, rumors say disgruntedly). He did the story of MadWorld. He's chillin these days.

Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Caliber (1999, N64, ep6) - similar to OB style
Ogre Battle: Legend of Zenobia Prince (2000, Neo Geo Pocket Color) - similar to OB style, this is a gaiden about Tristan from OB
Tactics Ogre: Knight of Lodis (2001, GBA) - similar to TO style, this is a gaiden about Lans Tartare from TO

Not content with raping and pillaging Quest the first time, Square decided to just buy Quest outright, and now they work on the FFT series, making FFTA and FFTA2 and maybe other stuff since I stopped following. This means that the Ogre Battle series is more or less officially dead, although Matsuno has hinted at pipe dreams of starting a company and buying the rights from Square.

IMHO the great games in the series are the first two (my two favorite TRPGs), but none of them are bad if you like this sort of game. They're all way better than say, FFTA. FFT would probably fall in between the first two and the last three in quality.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]
other games? how different is the 64 game? Also, the only other game I know of is Tactics Ogre. Is there another one I'm missing?
[/quote]
Here are the games (this is based on memory so I could be wrong but I've repeated it enough so I'm fairly sure):

Similar to the grandiose wankery of Xenosaga, Ogre Battle was originally planned as an 8-part episodic series.

Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen (1993, SNES, ep5) - closer to RTS style with turn-based battles
Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together (1995, SNES, ep7) - traditional TRPG style with individual turns instead of sides

At this point, the designer/creator Matsuno was signed away from Quest to work for Square to make FFT. He took other top Quest employees with him. He did the story of OB64 as a guest. At Square, he later worked on Vagrant Story, FFTA, and then FF12, leaving during the middle of FF12 development (officially due to health, rumors say disgruntedly). He did the story of MadWorld. He's chillin these days.

Ogre Battle 64: Person of Lordly Caliber (1999, N64, ep6) - similar to OB style
Ogre Battle: Legend of Zenobia Prince (2000, Neo Geo Pocket Color) - similar to OB style, this is a gaiden about Tristan from OB
Tactics Ogre: Knight of Lodis (2001, GBA) - similar to TO style, this is a gaiden about Lans Tartare from TO

Not content with raping and pillaging Quest the first time, Square decided to just buy Quest outright, and now they work on the FFT series, making FFTA and FFTA2 and maybe other stuff since I stopped following. This means that the Ogre Battle series is more or less officially dead, although Matsuno has hinted at pipe dreams of starting a company and buying the rights from Square.

IMHO the great games in the series are the first two (my two favorite TRPGs), but none of them are bad if you like this sort of game. They're all way better than say, FFTA. FFT would probably fall in between the first two and the last three in quality.

Rainman7

2009-09-20 10:30:26 pm

Quote from Enhasa:

FFT would probably fall in between the first two and the last three in quality.

Ah come now! Seriously? Nerd battle... It is here.

What 'quality' in either of the mentioned first 2 ogre battle games holds a candle to FFT? B/c if you are talking about quality from the perspective of gameplay, customization, storyline, character development, graphics, music, challenge, tactical planning, fun and scope, there is no question (for me) that Final Fantasy Tactics is in a league all its own.

Enhasa

2009-09-21 12:58:47 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Man, this is by far the tamest opinion I've ever been called out on. Tongue

It's not very easy to compare OB and FFT, since they are different styles, but TO and FFT is more possible. As far as I can tell from what I've heard people say, most people who have played both TO and FFT prefer TO. Also Famitsu had a poll of OMG greatest games ever, and TO was #7 and FFT was something way lower. Of course, you can't blame them! TO came out for the SFC. FFT was next generation but was only a rehash. (FFT's western popularity is mostly due to the FF brand + the fact that many RPG players, especially the SNES crowd, had never seen a TRPG until FFT and had their minds blown by the mere concept.) Popularity is no argument, so all I'm saying is if you can't believe I said that, you won't be able to believe a lot of other people either. Wink

Biggest advantages for me for TO over FFT (only objective traits listed, not subjective like story, characters, music, etc that I would also include):

- multiple branching paths/storyline
- multiple endings (some of them fucking awesome like

the default one is that you get assassinated!

)
- character class progression based on stats, meaning you can't just hotswap classes all the time with no penalty (this bothered me about FF5 too)
- more possible party synergy strategies, especially due to 10 on 10 (like have a bunch of water/wind element guys, use a witch and buff those elements and also summon up a really crazy storm)
- challenge by a ton (you are the first person I have ever seen say that FFT is more difficult than TO)
- other stuff that should go under challenge I guess, like FFT based too much on heroes, FFT is way more broken, reviving is too easy, etc

All this thread needs is someone saying both suck compared to FE4. Wink

Speaking of which, TO and FFT are way similar compared to most TRPGs. Fans should stick together to ward off people like NIS heathens. Tongue

Man, this is by far the tamest opinion I've ever been called out on. :P It's not very easy to compare OB and FFT, since they are different styles, but TO and FFT is more possible. As far as I can tell from what I've heard people say, most people who have played both TO and FFT prefer TO. Also Famitsu had a poll of OMG greatest games ever, and TO was #7 and FFT was something way lower. Of course, you can't blame them! TO came out for the SFC. FFT was next generation but was only a rehash. (FFT's western popularity is mostly due to the FF brand + the fact that many RPG players, especially the SNES crowd, had never seen a TRPG until FFT and had their minds blown by the mere concept.) Popularity is no argument, so all I'm saying is if you can't believe I said that, you won't be able to believe a lot of other people either. ;)

Biggest advantages for me for TO over FFT (only objective traits listed, not subjective like story, characters, music, etc that I would also include):

- multiple branching paths/storyline
- multiple endings (some of them fucking awesome like [spoiler]the default one is that you get assassinated![/spoiler])
- character class progression based on stats, meaning you can't just hotswap classes all the time with no penalty (this bothered me about FF5 too)
- more possible party synergy strategies, especially due to 10 on 10 (like have a bunch of water/wind element guys, use a witch and buff those elements and also summon up a really crazy storm)
- challenge by a ton (you are the first person I have ever seen say that FFT is more difficult than TO)
- other stuff that should go under challenge I guess, like FFT based too much on heroes, FFT is way more broken, reviving is too easy, etc

All this thread needs is someone saying both suck compared to FE4. ;) Speaking of which, TO and FFT are way similar compared to most TRPGs. Fans should stick together to ward off people like NIS heathens. :P

Rainman7

2009-09-21 09:37:03 pm

Tame nerd battle? I gave in my youth. Wink

I am glad to see you agree TO and FFT are both comparable. And yes it's probably silly to bring up opinions about indefinable aspects of game design such as 'playability' and 'aesthetics' as these are based upon anecdotal reference and personal opinion.

Both games are incredibly well designed (<3 matsuno and sakimoto) and not very well known at large due to their high level of challenge, convoluted storyline arcs and steep learning curve. So yes, fans of these trpg's should all join forces and give these games glory and props... LET'S CLING TOGETHER. (plz don't ban for awesome punz) right after I continue prattling on relentlessly and at unnecessarily great length about how awesome my opinions are.

TO is indeed more open-ended in the storyline and offers more replay value than FFT, most def.

I haven't seen TEH AWESOME ending in TO yet so this point is still up in the air for me. I really doubt the ending would be sufficiently awesome enough to change my position on FFT's storyline being of lesser quality. It would take an act of god to do so... though a group of 10 wizards casting a huge synergistic lightning storm would probably come pretty close as well.

Whatever the case, a group of synergistic mages with lightning, wind and water elements is no match for a calculator. Cheesy

Which leads me to the next thing on the list... balanced challenge. FFT has a better sense of balance (with a few exceptions) whereas TO has what I'd like to call AI raep. I don't like being skull-fucked by a computerchip. It gives me an inferiority complex. Hence my rubbish that nobody of a good mind would ever bother reading... but I digress.

From the aspect of challenge, we may have very different ideas about the role challenge holds in creating a good game.
So I'd like to talk a bit more about this.

Let me clarify a bit about the 'challenge' standpoint... I didn't mean to correlate the higher challenge between the titles to specifically denote 'quality'. IMO, the successful implementation of challenge is reliant upon the aspect of balance... or more specifically, that the challenge grade of a game should rise at an acceptable level as the game player moves through the game from beginning to end without throwing any lemon and arsenic-laced molotov cocktails at the gamer... anything too hard or too easy into the fold and it runs the risk of ruining the flow of the game. It's a hard equalization to strike but FFT is gold in this regard. The challenge is moderate enough that it makes the game fun without becoming too hard or too easy.

Tactics Ogre is indeed WAY more challenging than FFT from the perspective of AI but the quality of this challenge and the way it affects the flow of the game is of significantly less quality than FFT, imo.
I don't believe this sense of high challenge is good, in and of itself and I'll explain why.

IMO, providing GOOD Challenge is about finding balance between fairness and BULLSHIT; Negotiating the line between taxing the game players reflexes and gaming smarts fairly vs. making certain game scenarios damn-near impossible and infuriatingly difficult to complete, thereby integrating challenge in a way that makes the game a chore to play. (IE, adds very little to the functionality and reinforcement of game mechanics and makes the game less fun.)

In this respect, I view FFT as a better integration of this sense of challenge in that one can play the game from beginning to end without having to train their characters for hours and hours and hours on end... and this is done b/c each battle challenge in FFT is moderately incremental and positively reinforces the game. The sense of challenge is more angular. The game is highly challenging, but it isn't terrible either b/c you won't be thrown for too many loops.

Tactics Ogre?... yikes. It's easy to go from one battle where you'll be devastating the enemy and be like "wtf. r u srs?" to being dead within 3 turns in the next battle and going "Oh." The drop-off in enemy level and AI is RIDICULOUS* in TO.

The challenge grade is steep enough that if you aren't wall-clinging ivy or spiderman, yo ass is gonna fall. (or at least, my ass is/has already fallen and every bone in my body is still broken and probably protruding through the skin)
The difficulty level of TO isn't as complimentary to the gameplay in that the programmers didn't seem to be as concerned with providing a balanced challenge as much as providing plenty of AI RAEP.
But then again, this is adding nothing new to this discussion. FFT is a more mainstream-conscious consumer-friendly product than TO. Funny, considering the difficulty of both games is well above and beyond (possibly many times over) what the average consumer would be willing to submit to. Both games offer amazing gaming experiences and each SHOULD be mandatory playing for anyone interested in both TRpg's and groundbreaking games, in general.

* I realize games localized for japanese markets are seldom easy, as is evidenced in comparisons in the challenge of japanese releases vs. western releases... There were quite a few battles in the game where I wanted to rip my balls off. Not good, I really want to hang on to those, ya know? Admittedly, unforgiving challenge can make victory all the more satisfying and rewarding... but again, I like my balls where they are. Maybe the north american released TO version for PSX would be more my style...

gawd I really am becoming quite a lamer. I need to bust out my nes and get back to my roots!

Tame nerd battle?  I gave in my youth.  ;)

I am glad to see you agree TO and FFT are both comparable.  And yes it's probably silly to bring up opinions about indefinable aspects of game design such as 'playability' and 'aesthetics' as these are based upon anecdotal reference and personal opinion.

Both games are incredibly well designed (<3 matsuno and sakimoto) and not very well known at large due to their high level of challenge, convoluted storyline arcs and steep learning curve.  So yes, fans of these trpg's should all join forces and give these games glory and props... LET'S CLING TOGETHER.  (plz don't ban for awesome punz)  right after I continue prattling on relentlessly and at unnecessarily great length about how awesome my opinions are.

TO is indeed more open-ended in the storyline and offers more replay value than FFT, most def.

I haven't seen TEH AWESOME ending in TO yet so this point is still up in the air for me.  I really doubt the ending would be sufficiently awesome enough to change my position on FFT's storyline being of lesser quality.  It would take an act of god to do so... though a group of 10 wizards casting a huge synergistic lightning storm would probably come pretty close as well.

Whatever the case, a group of synergistic mages with lightning, wind and water elements is no match for a calculator.  :D  Which leads me to the next thing on the list... balanced challenge.  FFT has a better sense of balance (with a few exceptions) whereas TO has what I'd like to call AI raep.  I don't like being skull-fucked by a computerchip.  It gives me an inferiority complex.  Hence my rubbish that nobody of a good mind would ever bother reading... but I digress.

From the aspect of challenge, we may have very different ideas about the role challenge holds in creating a good game.  
So I'd like to talk a bit more about this.

Let me clarify a bit about the 'challenge' standpoint...  I didn't mean to correlate the higher challenge between the titles to specifically denote 'quality'.  IMO, the successful implementation of challenge is reliant upon the aspect of balance... or more specifically, that the challenge grade of a game should rise at an acceptable level as the game player moves through the game from beginning to end without throwing any lemon and arsenic-laced molotov cocktails at the gamer...  anything too hard or too easy into the fold and it runs the risk of ruining the flow of the game.  It's a hard equalization to strike but FFT is gold in this regard.  The challenge is moderate enough that it makes the game fun without becoming too hard or too easy.

Tactics Ogre is indeed WAY more challenging than FFT from the perspective of AI but the quality of this challenge and the way it affects the flow of the game is of significantly less quality than FFT, imo.  
I don't believe this sense of high challenge is good, in and of itself and I'll explain why.

IMO, providing GOOD Challenge is about finding balance between fairness and BULLSHIT; Negotiating the line between taxing the game players reflexes and gaming smarts fairly vs. making certain game scenarios damn-near impossible and infuriatingly difficult to complete, thereby integrating challenge in a way that makes the game a chore to play.  (IE, adds very little to the functionality and reinforcement of game mechanics and makes the game less fun.)

In this respect, I view FFT as a better integration of this sense of challenge in that one can play the game from beginning to end without having to train their characters for hours and hours and hours on end... and this is done b/c each battle challenge in FFT is moderately incremental and positively reinforces the game.  The sense of challenge is more angular.  The game is highly challenging, but it isn't terrible either b/c you won't be thrown for too many loops.

Tactics Ogre?... yikes.  It's easy to go from one battle where you'll be devastating the enemy and be like "wtf.  r u srs?" to being dead within 3 turns in the next battle and going "Oh." The drop-off in enemy level and AI is RIDICULOUS* in TO.

The challenge grade is steep enough that if you aren't wall-clinging ivy or spiderman, yo ass is gonna fall.  (or at least, my ass is/has already fallen and every bone in my body is still broken and probably protruding through the skin)  
The difficulty level of TO isn't as complimentary to the gameplay in that the programmers didn't seem to be as concerned with providing a balanced challenge as much as providing plenty of AI RAEP.  
But then again, this is adding nothing new to this discussion.  FFT is a more mainstream-conscious consumer-friendly product than TO.  Funny, considering the difficulty of both games is well above and beyond (possibly many times over) what the average consumer would be willing to submit to.  Both games offer amazing gaming experiences and each SHOULD be mandatory playing for anyone interested in both TRpg's and groundbreaking games, in general.

* I realize games localized for japanese markets are seldom easy, as is evidenced in comparisons in the challenge of japanese releases vs. western releases...  There were quite a few battles in the game where I wanted to rip my balls off.  Not good, I really want to hang on to those, ya know?  Admittedly, unforgiving challenge can make victory all the more satisfying and rewarding... but again, I like my balls where they are.  Maybe the north american released TO version for PSX would be more my style...

gawd I really am becoming quite a lamer.  I need to bust out my nes and get back to my roots!

Enhasa

2009-09-21 11:24:58 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

LOL this thread is going off the rails on a crazy train.

I see what you mean by challenge now though. You hit the nail right on the head. Most gamers prefer something easier than either game. You figured correctly on what I prefer (I can name other games if you care). Enjoyment of FFT vs TO, although they are very similar games and anyone who likes one and dislikes the other is some sort of loon, comes down a lot based on where on the continuum your preferences fall.

But: having to train characters in TO is a total myth, I don't know why people think that. Whenever I play the game, I never train and I never fight random encounters. I just reload and walk again (disclaimer: this is way more annoying on the piss-poor PS1 port). Enemies scale with you, all taking the level of the highest non-guest character on the field, meaning you are rewarded for planning and managing your levels to be even and not letting one god character do all the work, but also letting you do so if you want a bigger challenge (adjustable difficulty is IMO extremely good design). And if you mess up and one character gets higher in levels, you can simply sit him/her out and let others catch up naturally. Staying at low levels is both less work and more manageable, since guests come at constant levels; if you are low-leveled, they will be great for that stage. And incidentally, some of the hardest stages are guest stages (because you can't control them), so this prevents difficulty spikes.

FFT is unbalanced because certain classes are way better than others (hi calculator), some characters are way way too good (Orlandu, Worker 8, etc), and basically if you have good TRPG experience, you just mop up the whole game without ever really having to think about anything. TO is way way more balanced, in terms of classes and characters, and gives you nice things to macromanage such as which paths to take, party synergy, longterm character development (because you can't hotswap), and level balance. It even builds in an incentive not to have one god character do all the work, unlike godtier Orlandu. And this greater balance means that a much wider variety of good strategies are possible, and your characters have to work together a lot more.

The worst part of TO balance-wise is Hell Gate. You get all this insane stuff from doing it that makes the rest of the game laughable. I'd create a save, do Hell Gate if you want on another save, then continue the main game with the original one. Also, 100 floors might sound nice in theory, but most floors are really trivial and boring.

LOL this thread is going off the rails on a crazy train.

I see what you mean by challenge now though. You hit the nail right on the head. Most gamers prefer something easier than either game. You figured correctly on what I prefer (I can name other games if you care). Enjoyment of FFT vs TO, although they are very similar games and anyone who likes one and dislikes the other is some sort of loon, comes down a lot based on where on the continuum your preferences fall.

But: having to train characters in TO is a total myth, I don't know why people think that. Whenever I play the game, I never train and I never fight random encounters. I just reload and walk again (disclaimer: this is way more annoying on the piss-poor PS1 port). Enemies scale with you, all taking the level of the highest non-guest character on the field, meaning you are rewarded for planning and managing your levels to be even and not letting one god character do all the work, but also letting you do so if you want a bigger challenge (adjustable difficulty is IMO extremely good design). And if you mess up and one character gets higher in levels, you can simply sit him/her out and let others catch up naturally. Staying at low levels is both less work and more manageable, since guests come at constant levels; if you are low-leveled, they will be great for that stage. And incidentally, some of the hardest stages are guest stages (because you can't control them), so this prevents difficulty spikes.

FFT is unbalanced because certain classes are way better than others (hi calculator), some characters are way way too good (Orlandu, Worker 8, etc), and basically if you have good TRPG experience, you just mop up the whole game without ever really having to think about anything. TO is way way more balanced, in terms of classes and characters, and gives you nice things to macromanage such as which paths to take, party synergy, longterm character development (because you can't hotswap), and level balance. It even builds in an incentive not to have one god character do all the work, unlike godtier Orlandu. And this greater balance means that a much wider variety of good strategies are possible, and your characters have to work together a lot more.

The worst part of TO balance-wise is Hell Gate. You get all this insane stuff from doing it that makes the rest of the game laughable. I'd create a save, do Hell Gate if you want on another save, then continue the main game with the original one. Also, 100 floors might sound nice in theory, but most floors are really trivial and boring.