Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen

2009-09-22 09:16:25 am

Pudding%

Quote from Enhasa:

But: having to train characters in TO is a total myth, I don't know why people think that. Whenever I play the game, I never train and I never fight random encounters. I just reload and walk again (disclaimer: this is way more annoying on the piss-poor PS1 port). Enemies scale with you, all taking the level of the highest non-guest character on the field, meaning you are rewarded for planning and managing your levels to be even and not letting one god character do all the work, but also letting you do so if you want a bigger challenge (adjustable difficulty is IMO extremely good design). And if you mess up and one character gets higher in levels, you can simply sit him/her out and let others catch up naturally. Staying at low levels is both less work and more manageable, since guests come at constant levels; if you are low-leveled, they will be great for that stage. And incidentally, some of the hardest stages are guest stages (because you can't control them), so this prevents difficulty spikes.

Hmm...I thought the bosses of each stage did NOT scale, and were fixed? Later on that isn't such a big deal when 2-3 levels isn't such a detriment, but I distinctly remember early game being even 2 levels down made enemies almost unhittable/undamagable.

Quote:

The worst part of TO balance-wise is Hell Gate. You get all this insane stuff from doing it that makes the rest of the game laughable. I'd create a save, do Hell Gate if you want on another save, then continue the main game with the original one. Also, 100 floors might sound nice in theory, but most floors are really trivial and boring.

Dark Assassins were blatantly overpowered. I also hated the fact that (especially in Hell Gate) defense oriented classes were rendered nigh useless by speed oriented classes in the late game. The defense oriented couldn't hit the speed classes, but the speed classes attack was high enough to actually punch through the defense classes anyway (once again, Dark Assassins were OP).

[quote="Enhasa"]But: having to train characters in TO is a total myth, I don't know why people think that. Whenever I play the game, I never train and I never fight random encounters. I just reload and walk again (disclaimer: this is way more annoying on the piss-poor PS1 port). Enemies scale with you, all taking the level of the highest non-guest character on the field, meaning you are rewarded for planning and managing your levels to be even and not letting one god character do all the work, but also letting you do so if you want a bigger challenge (adjustable difficulty is IMO extremely good design). And if you mess up and one character gets higher in levels, you can simply sit him/her out and let others catch up naturally. Staying at low levels is both less work and more manageable, since guests come at constant levels; if you are low-leveled, they will be great for that stage. And incidentally, some of the hardest stages are guest stages (because you can't control them), so this prevents difficulty spikes.[/quote]

Hmm...I thought the bosses of each stage did NOT scale, and were fixed? Later on that isn't such a big deal when 2-3 levels isn't such a detriment, but I distinctly remember early game being even 2 levels down made enemies almost unhittable/undamagable.

[quote]The worst part of TO balance-wise is Hell Gate. You get all this insane stuff from doing it that makes the rest of the game laughable. I'd create a save, do Hell Gate if you want on another save, then continue the main game with the original one. Also, 100 floors might sound nice in theory, but most floors are really trivial and boring.[/quote]

Dark Assassins were blatantly overpowered. I also hated the fact that (especially in Hell Gate) defense oriented classes were rendered nigh useless by speed oriented classes in the late game. The defense oriented couldn't hit the speed classes, but the speed classes attack was high enough to actually punch through the defense classes anyway (once again, Dark Assassins were OP).

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2009-09-22 12:17:47 pm

2009-09-22 12:11:59 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

That's not a problem at all though. There's 10 of you and 1 of the boss. When it comes down to actually taking out the boss and it's 10 on 1, it's more humorous than anything that your group of knights and such is being devastated by counterattacks from a witch, and how each character will take one hit and then have to flee to the back of the battlefield, or everyone throwing stones (nice imagery) to prevent counterattacks.

I think archers are better, although obviously not when fighting uphill or something. Anyway, even while TO doesn't have the greatest balance (too many pointless classes like octopi and really any large units, unbalanced skills, speed/wait time is king, ch4 hell gate stuff is laughably stupid like full-screen damage spell), it is a lot more balanced than FFT. Although I have to admit, this whole genre where your goal is to wipe out the other side while losing no one is completely fundamentally unbalanced to begin with. Only tactical games I really like are the ones where your units can die freely: Starcraft (pvp, not campaign), Advance Wars, etc.

If you must have special plot characters, make them all disappear off the field of battle and not permanently die, as in Arc the Lad. Otherwise, while special characters can die, which makes it seem more interesting, in practice they're never supposed to die, which is actually very uninteresting.

That's not a problem at all though. There's 10 of you and 1 of the boss. When it comes down to actually taking out the boss and it's 10 on 1, it's more humorous than anything that your group of knights and such is being devastated by counterattacks from a witch, and how each character will take one hit and then have to flee to the back of the battlefield, or everyone throwing stones (nice imagery) to prevent counterattacks.

I think archers are better, although obviously not when fighting uphill or something. Anyway, even while TO doesn't have the greatest balance (too many pointless classes like octopi and really any large units, unbalanced skills, speed/wait time is king, ch4 hell gate stuff is laughably stupid like full-screen damage spell), it is a lot more balanced than FFT. Although I have to admit, this whole genre where your goal is to wipe out the other side while losing no one is completely fundamentally unbalanced to begin with. Only tactical games I really like are the ones where your units can die freely: Starcraft (pvp, not campaign), Advance Wars, etc.

If you must have special plot characters, make them all disappear off the field of battle and not permanently die, as in Arc the Lad. Otherwise, while special characters [i]can[/i] die, which makes it seem more interesting, in practice they're never [i]supposed[/i] to die, which is actually very uninteresting.

Dragondarch

Edit history:

Dragondarch: 2009-09-22 12:57:52 pm

2009-09-22 12:39:36 pm

Pudding%

Quote from Enhasa:

I think archers are better

That reminds me, Gremlins with bows are overpowered too, provided you can get some sort of height advantage (Something that can fly + a long range weapon + a high STR/DEX stat = death from above)

On another (speedrunning) note: I can see 2 different ways to run this.
-One would obviously be no training what-so-ever, synergizing your group, getting lucky, etc.
-The other would basically be over-training and having Denim practically soloing the game.

I remember each chapter having a level cap for how high the enemies could get. I think chapter 1 was 12 or something, and I KNOW chapter 4 was 35 (outside of Hell Gate which was 50, and the last area that's name escapes me, which had it's own caps). I also seem to remember that normal troop's levels couldn't be higher than a leader's level.

What I'm thinking is you'd level Denim high enough that he could pretty much solo a map. If you include counters, he should be getting MVP awards (don't quote me on that though) and grabbing extra levels to keep ahead without further leveling. Have a 2nd character (a witch leveled as an archer, and later a Sword Master) chain stun/petrify everything. If going the Law route, Denim can do this himself. When the 2nd character starts falling behind, do a quick training session and have them beat on Denim for some quick levels.

In chapter 1, I'd say use Sara after the 2nd fight since her stats are 100% archer. Chapter 2, use Aloser, unless taking the law route. Chapter 3 would be Haborym once you can get him for chaos. Neutral...I'm not really sure. You have to fight an optional battle for Haborym in the neutral route, and Aloser always leaves IIRC if you choose neutral as well.

This is all speculation, however. The way I'm looking at it, you'd be saving time by not having to move a full army, but you'd lose at least some, if not all of it, by having to train. Training doesn't take too long if you're only doing 1-2 characters though, so it'd be 100% whether being overleveled and taking less turns in battle could overcome the time it takes to train. If Denim is leveled as a Ninja, then his speed would be ridiculous, and the enemies would be practically killing themselves by attacking. Denim would also have a long range attack with whatever spell we gave him.

[quote="Enhasa"]I think archers are better[/quote]

That reminds me, Gremlins with bows are overpowered too, provided you can get some sort of height advantage (Something that can fly + a long range weapon + a high STR/DEX stat = death from above)

On another (speedrunning) note: I can see 2 different ways to run this. 
-One would obviously be no training what-so-ever, synergizing your group, getting lucky, etc.
-The other would basically be over-training and having Denim practically soloing the game.

I remember each chapter having a level cap for how high the enemies could get. I think chapter 1 was 12 or something, and I KNOW chapter 4 was 35 (outside of Hell Gate which was 50, and the last area that's name escapes me, which had it's own caps). I also seem to remember that normal troop's levels couldn't be higher than a leader's level.

What I'm thinking is you'd level Denim high enough that he could pretty much solo a map. If you include counters, he should be getting MVP awards (don't quote me on that though) and grabbing extra levels to keep ahead without further leveling. Have a 2nd character (a witch leveled as an archer, and later a Sword Master) chain stun/petrify everything. If going the Law route, Denim can do this himself. When the 2nd character starts falling behind, do a quick training session and have them beat on Denim for some quick levels.

In chapter 1, I'd say use Sara after the 2nd fight since her stats are 100% archer. Chapter 2, use Aloser, unless taking the law route. Chapter 3 would be Haborym once you can get him for chaos. Neutral...I'm not really sure. You have to fight an optional battle for Haborym in the neutral route, and Aloser always leaves IIRC if you choose neutral as well.

This is all speculation, however. The way I'm looking at it, you'd be saving time by not having to move a full army, but you'd lose at least some, if not all of it, by having to train. Training doesn't take too long if you're only doing 1-2 characters though, so it'd be 100% whether being overleveled and taking less turns in battle could overcome the time it takes to train. If Denim is leveled as a Ninja, then his speed would be ridiculous, and the enemies would be practically killing themselves by attacking. Denim would also have a long range attack with whatever spell we gave him.

Enhasa

2009-09-23 03:12:23 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I was writing this response yesterday (pre-edit) but forgot to hit submit for some reason.

I think soloing is definitely better if you can do it. All your guys moving and attacking, and all their guys attacking your guys, it all takes forever. Also this would let you go straight for their leader easier.

If you use a full 10, obvious strat would be to take down their leader with a team of archers. If you solo, speed is important since you'll be surviving due to them missing. I'm not sure Denim is the best choice though. Canopus can fly and is really quick and has great movement range, he's tailor made for leader assassinations. Denim has a lot more flexibility and raw power, especially later, and you might lose Canopus, I forget... you've probably thought it through more than I have.

The problem with leveling up past the cap is that training takes FOREVER. It only goes by relatively quickly if you're just bringing someone up to someone else's level, but for reaching a new level with training, it's really slow even with special training healing tricks and whatnot. Oh nevermind, I see what you're saying, you never said training explicitly either.

I think the thing to do is just play "normally" while soloing. Since one guy does everything, they're getting (gross oversimplification) 10x the exp that they normally would, as well as MVP if you have to kill some nonboss guys. The benefit of MVP is what really makes this possibly strategy tick vs the full 10.

I don't know if the witch is necessary, but it would certainly help. The thing is: stunning/petrifying/whatever doesn't have nearly as much time savings if you're soloing, because a lot of the enemies will just be moving and passing turn anyway.

I was writing this response yesterday (pre-edit) but forgot to hit submit for some reason.

I think soloing is definitely better if you can do it. All your guys moving and attacking, and all their guys attacking your guys, it all takes forever. Also this would let you go straight for their leader easier.

If you use a full 10, obvious strat would be to take down their leader with a team of archers. If you solo, speed is important since you'll be surviving due to them missing. I'm not sure Denim is the best choice though. Canopus can fly and is really quick and has great movement range, he's tailor made for leader assassinations. Denim has a lot more flexibility and raw power, especially later, and you might lose Canopus, I forget... you've probably thought it through more than I have.

The problem with leveling up past the cap is that training takes FOREVER. It only goes by relatively quickly if you're just bringing someone up to someone else's level, but for reaching a new level with training, it's really slow even with special training healing tricks and whatnot. Oh nevermind, I see what you're saying, you never said training explicitly either.

I think the thing to do is just play "normally" while soloing. Since one guy does everything, they're getting (gross oversimplification) 10x the exp that they normally would, as well as MVP if you have to kill some nonboss guys. The benefit of MVP is what really makes this possibly strategy tick vs the full 10.

I don't know if the witch is necessary, but it would certainly help. The thing is: stunning/petrifying/whatever doesn't have nearly as much time savings if you're soloing, because a lot of the enemies will just be moving and passing turn anyway.

ZenicReverie

2009-09-25 11:55:47 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Enhasa:

If you must have special plot characters, make them all disappear off the field of battle and not permanently die, as in Arc the Lad. Otherwise, while special characters can die, which makes it seem more interesting, in practice they're never supposed to die, which is actually very uninteresting.

I think it'd be awesome to have the story split based on which characters survived a battle. Main hero died? Someone else takes his place and changes the story.

Looks like I missed the discussion... Vandal Hearts is the best! I've never played TO and only had a demo for FFT.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2009-09-25 11:04:20 pm

2009-09-25 12:51:46 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

TO is the closest you get to that. The story splits drastically depending on certain, uh, decisions, and it's really neat to see what completely different things happen like someone could be your best friend, betray you, get executed, or whatever. Also there is a special character who is allowed to die, and her death changes the story drastically. BTW the Official Prima Strategy Guide on this game (by far the worst guide for anything -- not just gaming -- I have ever seen... it truly does more harm than good... the guy used a hacked file with all level 99 guys the whole game... there are hidden treasures all over every map, and one time he randomly steps on one and reports it like it is some big secret... I could write an entire article on this heheh) doesn't even realize that it is possible for her not to die.

Deus Ex got a metric fuckton of love because the story changes drastically based on a couple things you can do. I can't think of any traditional game where the main character is allowed to die and the game progresses normally. I suppose the closest thing you can get (although it's completely scripted and totally a spoiler) is stuff like

Baten Kaitos, Chrono Trigger, Lufia, even Metal Slug 3

.

Vandal Hearts is good, a bit underrated.

Spammingly off-topic:

I think your idea is cool, I had a similar one. It would be awesome to have a tv show/movie/possibly game even from a character's vantage point, and then he/she gets killed in some varying manner (accidental, intentional, doesn't matter, but surprise in timing is key), and the vantage point immediately switches to the person who killed him/her. This repeats a lot, and it eventually ends when either the final character commits suicide or (worse idea) gets killed by the cameraman/audience. If it was a movie and someone like QT made it, it would be a critical classic. TV show: it would have some critical success but would be too disjointed/ensemble cast and get canceled. Game: don't make me laugh, it would do horribly.

Another great TV show idea I had that would be critically adored but get terrible ratings and canceled quickly is a show called Pilots. Every single episode is a completely new idea, like the pilot episode of a show. You would use the same cast in different ways each week. This would be artsy fartsy and also awesome so critics would love it, but it would never build up many fans.

I have some more ideas like this but probably nobody wants to hear about them and has even read this far. Tongue

Edit:

Quote:

<ZenicReverie> Enhasa: I read your post, fun ideas.
<ZenicReverie> maybe the change in perspective thing would work for a game if instead of a "main character" it was revealed you're actually following the path of a weapon or something that changes hands at the time of death, I thought of something similar where the player character is actually an enchanted sword that takes over control of whoever wields it. The player would go around body hunting for the best stats and stuff.

<Enhasa> zenic: wow, i was going to mention maken x but somehow forgot
<Enhasa> that's like, maken x exactly basically

TO is the closest you get to that. The story splits drastically depending on certain, uh, [i]decisions[/i], and it's really neat to see what completely different things happen like someone could be your best friend, betray you, get executed, or whatever. Also there is a special character who is allowed to die, and her death changes the story drastically. BTW the Official Prima Strategy Guide on this game (by far the worst guide for anything -- not just gaming -- I have ever seen... it truly does more harm than good... the guy used a hacked file with all level 99 guys the whole game... there are hidden treasures all over every map, and one time he randomly steps on one and reports it like it is some big secret... I could write an entire article on this heheh) doesn't even realize that it is possible for her [i]not[/i] to die.

Deus Ex got a metric fuckton of love because the story changes drastically based on a couple things you can do. I can't think of any traditional game where the main character is allowed to die and the game progresses normally. I suppose the closest thing you can get (although it's completely scripted and totally a spoiler) is stuff like [spoiler]Baten Kaitos, Chrono Trigger, Lufia, even Metal Slug 3[/spoiler].

Vandal Hearts is good, a bit underrated.

Spammingly off-topic: [spoiler]I think your idea is cool, I had a similar one. It would be awesome to have a tv show/movie/possibly game even from a character's vantage point, and then he/she gets killed in some varying manner (accidental, intentional, doesn't matter, but surprise in timing is key), and the vantage point immediately switches to the person who killed him/her. This repeats a lot, and it eventually ends when either the final character commits suicide or (worse idea) gets killed by the cameraman/audience. If it was a movie and someone like QT made it, it would be a critical classic. TV show: it would have some critical success but would be too disjointed/ensemble cast and get canceled. Game: don't make me laugh, it would do horribly.

Another great TV show idea I had that would be critically adored but get terrible ratings and canceled quickly is a show called Pilots. Every single episode is a completely new idea, like the pilot episode of a show. You would use the same cast in different ways each week. This would be artsy fartsy and also awesome so critics would love it, but it would never build up many fans.

I have some more ideas like this but probably nobody wants to hear about them and has even read this far. :P[/spoiler]

Edit: [spoiler][quote]<ZenicReverie> Enhasa: I read your post, fun ideas.
<ZenicReverie> maybe the change in perspective thing would work for a game if instead of a "main character" it was revealed you're actually following the path of a weapon or something that changes hands at the time of death, I thought of something similar where the player character is actually an enchanted sword that takes over control of whoever wields it. The player would go around body hunting for the best stats and stuff.

<Enhasa> zenic: wow, i was going to mention maken x but somehow forgot
<Enhasa> that's like, maken x exactly basically[/quote][/spoiler]

Rainman7

2009-09-25 05:39:07 pm

You sound to be a better TO player than most, enhasa... hey, why not do your own run? SS, plz. rofl

LoF

2009-09-30 02:25:43 am

I want to seeeeee this.

GreatMax

2009-10-20 11:36:14 pm

OMG, real meaning, omega was da s...

Hello, this is Greatmax from youtube I suppose. Normally the game isn't that long but to do it quickly is a challenge in some sense. Getting passed the unit opinion leader and your attack type and tarot card animations, you could simply use 3-4 units and become evil. That should allow you to plow through any enemy in the game.

Then there's what levels to skip. I find RPG's like this, FFTs, and in any FF's not really intended on speedruns. It is fun to playthrough it but that's not the point here.

Sorry if I'm not contributing much but I don't post here often. It feels like you'll need to abuse Tarot cards and become evil at the end. It might also require gryphon units that can fly straight to the leader.

Good luck, have fun, and we look forward to it nevertheless. Cheesy

Dragondarch

2010-10-01 05:05:23 am

Pudding%

OK, sooooo...necro from 11 months ago, with some good/bad news.

The bad: The old 1:02:xx run is lost forever. I couldn't manage to get my hands on a same make/model to transplant the HDD.

The good: I have a (mostly) brand new DVD Recorder that I'm recording a brand new run on.

The good(er): The new run is only 3 stages in (on Lake Jannenia right now trying to manipulate a Fool Card), and is about 52 seconds ahead of the old one. I'm also pretty sure my new idea for War Funds and Card manipulation will shave a bit more off, especially in the last segment.

Flip

2010-10-01 10:23:05 am

1-Up!

I'm happy both because this run is being worked on AND because the oldest entry on the verification list has been cleared off (albeit not because it got verified). Now to go find the Air Fortress runner and figure out why THAT run hasn't been submitted yet Shocked

ZenicReverie

2010-10-01 01:25:21 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from Flip:

I'm happy both because this run is being worked on AND because the oldest entry on the verification list has been cleared off (albeit not because it got verified). Now to go find the Air Fortress runner and figure out why THAT run hasn't been submitted yet Shocked

(for those that don't know, it's the same runner)

Glad to see this getting taken care of once again.

Flip

2010-10-02 08:27:49 pm

1-Up!

Heh, I wasn't aware. Get on that dragondarch Wink

Dragondarch

2010-10-02 11:23:38 pm

Pudding%

Well, the bonus is that Mike has already said that both games have enough verifiers once I can manage to get the runs done Wink

Dragondarch

Edit history:

Dragondarch: 2010-10-08 03:15:59 am

Dragondarch: 2010-10-08 01:55:15 am

2010-10-08 01:17:11 am

Pudding%

Lake Janennia complete. 10 more seconds shaved.

Need to check out a possible route change before moving on from here, but I'm fairly certain it'll pan out like I think it will.

EDIT: Done. New route is entirely possible, though I'm not sure it's technically any faster. Just slightly easier bosses, which is good for my sanity.

EDIT2: Slums of Zenobia done as well. Another 23 seconds saved here. Wasn't expecting to get this one done so quickly. I think if I had waited about 1 second longer on the map, I would have been able to take Debonair down about 10 seconds sooner - the reason for this being that it would have transitioned from day to dusk, which would have improved Warren's damage by enough to kill him on his hit, rather than have to watch the Opinion Leader and Gryphon miss, Debonair perform another attack, and having Lans kill him on his 2nd turn. Then again, if I had waited, the RNG might not have been as favorable and could have cost me the fight. I'm perfectly fine with taking this one as is since I had to manipulate a weapon, and still have a decent fight.

Lake Janennia complete. 10 more seconds shaved.

Need to check out a possible route change before moving on from here, but I'm fairly certain it'll pan out like I think it will.

EDIT: Done. New route is entirely possible, though I'm not sure it's technically any faster. Just slightly easier bosses, which is good for my sanity.

EDIT2: Slums of Zenobia done as well. Another 23 seconds saved here. Wasn't expecting to get this one done so quickly. I think if I had waited about 1 second longer on the map, I would have been able to take Debonair down about 10 seconds sooner - the reason for this being that it would have transitioned from day to dusk, which would have improved Warren's damage by enough to kill him on his hit, rather than have to watch the Opinion Leader and Gryphon miss, Debonair perform another attack, and having Lans kill him on his 2nd turn. Then again, if I had waited, the RNG might not have been as favorable and could have cost me the fight. I'm perfectly fine with taking this one as is since I had to manipulate a weapon, and still have a decent fight.

arthurgolden

2010-12-30 01:50:45 am

I haven't logged into the forums in a while, but it's great that you're still working on this run after all the technical trouble. Any progress made? Really looking forward to watching whenever it's done.

Dragondarch

2010-12-30 04:43:58 pm

Pudding%

Life got a bit busy lately...should be calming down a bit after the new year. The little time I've actually had to work on it hasn't been productive, though. Manipulating Fool cards should be considered a form a torture Tongue

arthurgolden

2011-01-03 09:35:06 pm

I hear ya. The pain will be worth it in the end, though, considering all of the amazing progress you've made with the run already.

Dragondarch

Edit history:

Dragondarch: 2011-01-15 04:08:30 am

Dragondarch: 2011-01-15 04:08:06 am

Dragondarch: 2011-01-14 06:21:04 am

Dragondarch: 2011-01-14 06:20:47 am

2011-01-14 04:48:10 am

Pudding%

Island Avalon finally complete! Damn you Fool Card!

I probably logged about 10-15 hours worth of attempts without a single Fool Card. I decided to try something different this time - waiting around for a couple seconds. I found a spot where the RNG would actually give me Fool Cards if I waited 2 seconds before moving my unit at the start, followed by not quite landing on the Temple in the middle of the map (instead I stopped a couple pixels under it). This little extra bit of time seemed to allow Fool Cards to drop. No more than 3-4 seconds were wasted in this manner.

However, I lost 41 seconds on this segment compared to last time...but I fully expected this. In the last run I went with Norn/Debonair, this time I'm going with Aisha/Tristan. The time lost in this segment was mostly from adding Aisha to the party after the stage (though even with the liberation/card pull/extra dialogue, I would have only been 8 or so seconds behind the old run had I decided to add her at the beginning of the next segment). This 41 seconds will be offset by not adding Norn after the next stage. In addition this new route has fewer equipment changes than the old one, and also gives me Tristan instead of Lans for the 2nd Gares fight. It's just a matter of pulling it all off correctly.

Next segment is Kastolatian Sea. Picking up Brunhild (and manipulating another Fool card...yay...), but at least Porkyus is nothing to be afraid of.

EDIT: Almost had Kastolatian Sea finished within 20 minutes of starting work on it. Got the Fool Card I needed, then had an absolutely horrible Porkyus fight. Out of 7 attacks, Opinion Leader missed his Iainuki, Aisha missed both of her Bolts, the Gryphon missed both of its attacks, and Lans missed the first swing and managed to land his second. God did I /facepalm...

EDIT 2: Round 2 of getting a Fool Card. This time I was actually able to hit her, but the RNG was being mean and everyone was hitting near the low end of their damage range. End result: The fight ended with Porkyus at 1 HP.../double facepalm

Island Avalon finally complete! Damn you Fool Card!

I probably logged about 10-15 hours worth of attempts without a single Fool Card. I decided to try something different this time - waiting around for a couple seconds. I found a spot where the RNG would actually give me Fool Cards if I waited 2 seconds before moving my unit at the start, followed by not quite landing on the Temple in the middle of the map (instead I stopped a couple pixels under it). This little extra bit of time seemed to allow Fool Cards to drop. No more than 3-4 seconds were wasted in this manner.

However, I lost 41 seconds on this segment compared to last time...but I fully expected this. In the last run I went with Norn/Debonair, this time I'm going with Aisha/Tristan. The time lost in this segment was mostly from adding Aisha to the party after the stage (though even with the liberation/card pull/extra dialogue, I would have only been 8 or so seconds behind the old run had I decided to add her at the beginning of the next segment). This 41 seconds will be offset by not adding Norn after the next stage. In addition this new route has fewer equipment changes than the old one, and also gives me Tristan instead of Lans for the 2nd Gares fight. It's just a matter of pulling it all off correctly.

Next segment is Kastolatian Sea. Picking up Brunhild (and manipulating another Fool card...yay...), but at least Porkyus is nothing to be afraid of.

EDIT: Almost had Kastolatian Sea finished within 20 minutes of starting work on it. Got the Fool Card I needed, then had an absolutely horrible Porkyus fight. Out of 7 attacks, Opinion Leader missed his Iainuki, Aisha missed both of her Bolts, the Gryphon missed both of its attacks, and Lans missed the first swing and managed to land his second. God did I /facepalm...

EDIT 2: Round 2 of getting a Fool Card. This time I was actually able to hit her, but the RNG was being mean and everyone was hitting near the low end of their damage range. End result: The fight ended with Porkyus at 1 HP.../double facepalm

Dragondarch

2011-01-19 12:58:27 am

Pudding%

Finally, some good luck after getting the Fool Card.

Kastolatian Sea is done, and I shaved 72 seconds off the Diaspola segment from the old run. If we factor out the 41 seconds I lost adding Aisha to the party, then this would be a net gain of 31 seconds between the last 2 stages over the old run, putting me 1m 56s ahead of the old run thus far.

Next up is Balmorian Ruins, which requires an item manipulation (need an INT boosting item here), followed by a 1 round Albeleo fight. Reason being that if Albeleo gets 2 turns, my Opinion Leader will die. I could use a World Card, but then I'd have to manipulate another one later on, and I'm pretty sure this fight can be done in one round, provided everyone actually connects.

arthurgolden

2011-01-19 08:07:33 pm

Awesome.

kaiserblade

2011-01-20 08:29:11 am

Duff McWhalen

I'm getting more and more stoked for this run every update!

Dragondarch

Edit history:

Dragondarch: 2011-01-21 05:08:42 am

2011-01-20 11:22:31 pm

Pudding%

Finished Balmorian Ruins, shaved another 40 seconds. Managed a 1 round Albeleo fight Smiley

Something I hadn't taken into account - Albeleo fights with the Strong Tactic set, meaning that his absorbable damage increases by 4 (this is factored in after all other defense calculations are made, including resistances). This caused me to not quite have enough "oomph" to take him down in one round without a slight modification to my equipment. In addition to giving Aisha the new Liebel's Rod I picked up, I also gave my Black Axe to my Gryphon, which upped its damage just enough to allow for a one round fight.

Wayyyyy more manipulation going on here that would meet the eye. I think I'm getting much more comfortable with what affects the RNG in this game. To give an idea of what this stage put me through:

1) I started off by waiting for about 3 seconds before moving my unit. I say 3 seconds, but I was actually listening for a specific note in the music to go off of. I also needed to be slightly late on the button press. More on that in a moment.

2) I had to position my movement marker at a pretty specific point, namely a small triangular piece of land jutting out of the west side of the river to the northwest of where the item I was picking up was. I needed my marker on the north shore of this tiny piece of land - this would cause my unit to move at the item from a specific direction. It would seem that which direction I come from determines which pixel of the item I touch first, which in turn determines which frame I actually obtain the item on. This combined with the 3 second delay allowed for Liebel's Rods to appear. I had also seen Angel's Wings come up now and again (much more rare than Liebel's Rod), and almost had an attempt that would have finished the stage with it (screwed up my movement ever so slightly). To be honest though, I don't know where the Angel's Wings started coming from - I spent almost 2 hours using this exact manipulation strategy without ever seeing one, then all of a sudden they just started showing up like it was normal.

3) After obtaining (and equipping) the Liebel's Rod, I needed to wait a split second before selecting my unit again to move them. From here I move northeast - movement marker was placed just north of a house to the east of Kannyate. This is then followed quickly by moving my pointer down into a black area of the forest to the southeast of there, wwaiting to grab my unit and send them toward the boss.

4) I make the last movement just slightly north of the boss. I have to be careful here - if I'm too far west, I'll hit Albeleo at a later frame and there's a good chance I'll lose the fight. If I'm too far east, I'll wind up running into an enemy unit that's traversing the southern edge of that island (you can see in the video that I almost come into contact with it anyway). Note that this is the reason I had to be late on the first button press of the stage - if I move too soon, so will the enemy. This was always evident by how much lag I there seemed to be when I reached the item. If I was moving at a snail's pace, then I moved too soon, and the enemy was already headed out. If this happened then there seemed to be no way to get the 1 round fight (but oddly enough this didn't seem to affect the RNG on the item I got).

So yeah...I think I can use all this to my advantage. I've already almost finished City of Malano - I can get the Fool Card I need pretty easily, and get to the boss without any problems (while almost clipping another enemy unit). I just haven't found a way to down him just yet. Technically, there's one situation that I could take him down, but it would require the use of my Justice Card. I'd rather try and find a way to down Apros without it, however, since I'm going to need all the non-long-animation and non-Judgment cards I can get my hands on for Fort Allamoot.

EDIT: City of Malano done. Lost 3 seconds compared to The Tundra in the old run, however, I added Tristan to the party after the stage, but obviously didn't add Debonair until after Shangrila. I'm fairly certain that the time lost here will be made up for and more in Shangrila. I ended up biting the bullet and using the Justice card anyway. It'll make me have to manipulate even harder in Fort Allamoot for damage cards, but I had actually planned on using it here anyway, so I'll manage.

Finished Balmorian Ruins, shaved another 40 seconds. Managed a 1 round Albeleo fight :)

Something I hadn't taken into account - Albeleo fights with the Strong Tactic set, meaning that his absorbable damage increases by 4 (this is factored in after all other defense calculations are made, including resistances). This caused me to not quite have enough "oomph" to take him down in one round without a slight modification to my equipment. In addition to giving Aisha the new Liebel's Rod I picked up, I also gave my Black Axe to my Gryphon, which upped its damage just enough to allow for a one round fight.

Wayyyyy more manipulation going on here that would meet the eye. I think I'm getting much more comfortable with what affects the RNG in this game. To give an idea of what this stage put me through:

1) I started off by waiting for about 3 seconds before moving my unit. I say 3 seconds, but I was actually listening for a specific note in the music to go off of. I also needed to be slightly late on the button press. More on that in a moment.

2) I had to position my movement marker at a pretty specific point, namely a small triangular piece of land jutting out of the west side of the river to the northwest of where the item I was picking up was. I needed my marker on the north shore of this tiny piece of land - this would cause my unit to move at the item from a specific direction. It would seem that which direction I come from determines which pixel of the item I touch first, which in turn determines which frame I actually obtain the item on. This combined with the 3 second delay allowed for Liebel's Rods to appear. I had also seen Angel's Wings come up now and again (much more rare than Liebel's Rod), and almost had an attempt that would have finished the stage with it (screwed up my movement ever so slightly). To be honest though, I don't know where the Angel's Wings started coming from - I spent almost 2 hours using this exact manipulation strategy without ever seeing one, then all of a sudden they just started showing up like it was normal.

3) After obtaining (and equipping) the Liebel's Rod, I needed to wait a split second before selecting my unit again to move them. From here I move northeast - movement marker was placed just north of a house to the east of Kannyate. This is then followed quickly by moving my pointer down into a black area of the forest to the southeast of there, wwaiting to grab my unit and send them toward the boss.

4) I make the last movement just slightly north of the boss. I have to be careful here - if I'm too far west, I'll hit Albeleo at a later frame and there's a good chance I'll lose the fight. If I'm too far east, I'll wind up running into an enemy unit that's traversing the southern edge of that island (you can see in the video that I [i]almost[/i] come into contact with it anyway). Note that this is the reason I had to be late on the first button press of the stage - if I move too soon, so will the enemy. This was always evident by how much lag I there seemed to be when I reached the item. If I was moving at a snail's pace, then I moved too soon, and the enemy was already headed out. If this happened then there seemed to be no way to get the 1 round fight (but oddly enough this didn't seem to affect the RNG on the item I got).

So yeah...I think I can use all this to my advantage. I've already almost finished City of Malano - I can get the Fool Card I need pretty easily, and get to the boss without any problems (while almost clipping another enemy unit). I just haven't found a way to down him just yet. Technically, there's one situation that I could take him down, but it would require the use of my Justice Card. I'd rather try and find a way to down Apros without it, however, since I'm going to need all the non-long-animation and non-Judgment cards I can get my hands on for Fort Allamoot.

EDIT: City of Malano done. Lost 3 seconds compared to The Tundra in the old run, however, I added Tristan to the party after the stage, but obviously didn't add Debonair until after Shangrila. I'm fairly certain that the time lost here will be made up for and more in Shangrila. I ended up biting the bullet and using the Justice card anyway. It'll make me have to manipulate even harder in Fort Allamoot for damage cards, but I had actually planned on using it here anyway, so I'll manage.

Dragondarch

2011-01-27 06:39:27 am

Pudding%

So...the run is FINISHED! New clear time: 57m 7s.

Shangrila: Lost 21 seconds here due to pulling cards after buying my mass of Jokers, and also not using any damage cards against Gares. Tristan is a welcome relief for the fight compared to having Lans last time around. I needed to manipulate half of the damage cards I need for Fort Allamoot here, since I wasn't able to come up with a quick way to get them all in Fort Allamoot itself.

Fort Allamoot: Gained 23 seconds here, I think mostly from less cards pulled, and an overall kickass Gemini Twins fight. Granted, the fight itself lasted through all but one of the twins attacks, but still...there was a couple of slight pauses during the fight itself when I was trying to figure out if I needed to switch my tactics or use a card. I think it only added up to 3 seconds, though. Seriously, I don't think the twins fight could have gone any better.

Dalmuhd Desert: Lost 15 seconds here, and it wasn't from card pulling oddly enough. Last time, I burned a Judgement Card against Prochon, which combined with Debonair's and Norn's attacks was enough to bring him down in one round. This time I didn't burn any damage cards and let my party do the work. This resulted in a longer fight from having to watch multiple people miss. Tristan was wrecking him with Brunhild equipped though Wink

Fort Shulamana: Gained 10 seconds here, and I'm pretty sure they all came from not using Hermit cards (long animation). I had a Sigmund equipped on Tristan to offset not using Electric damage cards.

City of Xanadu: Gained 35 seconds here, quite a bit of it from not using Devil Cards. I had a hell of a time trying to get the 2 of the cards I wanted here - the RNG just didn't want to cooperate. In addition Hikash is a total PITA without Devil Cards. I had Tristan equipped with a Black Axe, and ended up using a Justice Card as well. This gave me just enough damage to take him out. I had one practice attempt that ended in a rather comical manner as well - I had him at like 25 HP left with Tristan having one attack remaining. Tristan missed, Hikash beat Tristan to death, then used Iainuki on his last turn, killing Aisha, and also killing himself with the backlash at the same time!

Zeteginea: Lost the 35 seconds I gained in City of Xanadu here. Pretty much all of it came from spending a bit more time pulling cards than last time. In the previous run, I burned a World, Fool, and I think 1 or 2 Chariots against Endora. This time, I burned the World obviously, but skipped Fool. Her 2 cohorts are both in the back row, leaving her wide open. Also, instead of Chariots, I used 2 Towers. The damage was quite a bit lower, but Tower's damage doesn't diminish when multiple enemies are present. Even with both, I barely had enough oomph to kill her.

Temple Shalina: Shaved a whopping 2m 56s here, a lot of which comes from not pulling anywhere near as many cards as last time. Though I did spend about 1m 20s pulling cards at the start, since I needed 3 specific cards still. I had been pulling cards in each stage since Shangrila in a (successful) attempt to have all the cards I needed before even entering the stage. Technically it wasn't possible to have them all since I needed 3 against Endora, and I was planning on needing 14 for the final 3 bosses (and the card limit is 14...). At this point I still needed one more Chariot, and 2 Judgements. This is actually the fastest I had managed to get them.

I decided on using Chariots on Rashidi instead of quicker animation cards since I was having an extremely hard time even hitting him, and the only one who could do any real damage to him was Tristan (well...my Opinion Leader could actually hurt him quite a bit with Iainuki...if it connected). No other (short animation) cards could even come close to Chariot's damage. The fight ended with the Gryphon dealing the deathblow oddly enough. Tristan had one attack left beyond that, but so did Rashidi, and if he had used either Gale or Lifesuck it would have meant a game over during the Diablo fight.

As for Diablo himself, I pretty much spent the entire fight spamming Judgement cards on him, with his and my attacks in between. I had 7 saved up, and had either Aisha or my Opinion Leader's attacks have missed, I would have lost the fight. I actually ended the run with exactly 0 tarot cards left over.

I'm going to actually try and improve the last segment's card luck if I can. Spending 80 seconds pulling cards just doesn't sit right with me when I only needed 3 cards. If I can't come up with something within a few days, I'll just submit what I currently have since the only real improvements to this segment are strictly luck based.

So...the run is FINISHED! New clear time: 57m 7s.

Shangrila: Lost 21 seconds here due to pulling cards after buying my mass of Jokers, and also not using any damage cards against Gares. Tristan is a welcome relief for the fight compared to having Lans last time around. I needed to manipulate half of the damage cards I need for Fort Allamoot here, since I wasn't able to come up with a quick way to get them all in Fort Allamoot itself.

Fort Allamoot: Gained 23 seconds here, I think mostly from less cards pulled, and an overall kickass Gemini Twins fight. Granted, the fight itself lasted through all but one of the twins attacks, but still...there was a couple of slight pauses during the fight itself when I was trying to figure out if I needed to switch my tactics or use a card. I think it only added up to 3 seconds, though. Seriously, I don't think the twins fight could have gone any better.

Dalmuhd Desert: Lost 15 seconds here, and it wasn't from card pulling oddly enough. Last time, I burned a Judgement Card against Prochon, which combined with Debonair's and Norn's attacks was enough to bring him down in one round. This time I didn't burn any damage cards and let my party do the work. This resulted in a longer fight from having to watch multiple people miss. Tristan was wrecking him with Brunhild equipped though ;)

Fort Shulamana: Gained 10 seconds here, and I'm pretty sure they all came from not using Hermit cards (long animation). I had a Sigmund equipped on Tristan to offset not using Electric damage cards.

City of Xanadu: Gained 35 seconds here, quite a bit of it from not using Devil Cards. I had a hell of a time trying to get the 2 of the cards I wanted here - the RNG just didn't want to cooperate. In addition Hikash is a total PITA without Devil Cards. I had Tristan equipped with a Black Axe, and ended up using a Justice Card as well. This gave me [b]just[/b] enough damage to take him out. I had one practice attempt that ended in a rather comical manner as well - I had him at like 25 HP left with Tristan having one attack remaining. Tristan missed, Hikash beat Tristan to death, then used Iainuki on his last turn, killing Aisha, and also killing himself with the backlash at the same time!

Zeteginea: Lost the 35 seconds I gained in City of Xanadu here. Pretty much all of it came from spending a bit more time pulling cards than last time. In the previous run, I burned a World, Fool, and I think 1 or 2 Chariots against Endora. This time, I burned the World obviously, but skipped Fool. Her 2 cohorts are both in the back row, leaving her wide open. Also, instead of Chariots, I used 2 Towers. The damage was quite a bit lower, but Tower's damage doesn't diminish when multiple enemies are present. Even with both, I barely had enough oomph to kill her.

Temple Shalina: Shaved a whopping 2m 56s here, a lot of which comes from not pulling anywhere near as many cards as last time. Though I did spend about 1m 20s pulling cards at the start, since I needed 3 specific cards still. I had been pulling cards in each stage since Shangrila in a (successful) attempt to have all the cards I needed before even entering the stage. Technically it wasn't possible to have them all since I needed 3 against Endora, and I was planning on needing 14 for the final 3 bosses (and the card limit is 14...). At this point I still needed one more Chariot, and 2 Judgements. This is actually the fastest I had managed to get them.

I decided on using Chariots on Rashidi instead of quicker animation cards since I was having an extremely hard time even hitting him, and the only one who could do any real damage to him was Tristan (well...my Opinion Leader could actually hurt him quite a bit with Iainuki...if it connected). No other (short animation) cards could even come close to Chariot's damage. The fight ended with the Gryphon dealing the deathblow oddly enough. Tristan had one attack left beyond that, but so did Rashidi, and if he had used either Gale or Lifesuck it would have meant a game over during the Diablo fight.

As for Diablo himself, I pretty much spent the entire fight spamming Judgement cards on him, with his and my attacks in between. I had 7 saved up, and had either Aisha or my Opinion Leader's attacks have missed, I would have lost the fight. I actually ended the run with exactly 0 tarot cards left over.

I'm going to actually try and improve the last segment's card luck if I can. Spending 80 seconds pulling cards just doesn't sit right with me when I only needed 3 cards. If I can't come up with something within a few days, I'll just submit what I currently have since the only real improvements to this segment are strictly luck based.

ZenicReverie

2011-01-27 09:07:02 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

wow, I didn't know the time of the previous run, but sub 1-hour just amazes me for this game.