MK - Shaolin Monks

Mkt2015

Edit history:

Mkt2015: 2005-10-02 10:45:43 am

2005-10-02 10:43:11 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

First off, I don't plan on running this game for a while since I'm still on Jak 2 and whether or not that guy releases his Jak 3 run, I need to do that still...plus I know that my run can already be beaten by quite a bit with the new SDA rules...so I figured I would just give a heads up on my thoughts of a speedrun.

A friend of mine and I recently beat the game ko-op. There are a few platforming elements, but not much. Most of the bosses are pretty easy except for the last two fights in the game...I don't know exactly which abilities a person should upgrade since my friend and I had maxed ours, but I'll give it a shot:

Lui Kang - A person probably wouldn't need all of the uppercuts. It is a nice thing to have to keep certain bosses in the air longer...the more air they get the less chance they attack you. Fireballs should be maxed.

Kung Lao - The spinning attack helps keep bosses in the air and is a good crowd-control thing...probably wouldn't need to have the hat upgraded much. When it comes to kicking I know that I just used Lui Kang's fireballs on kintaro as my friend repeatedly kicked him. We timed it pretty well cause kintaro only got about two hits on us.

It's easier to get exp. from fatalities than just doing things normally...you'd have to use the fastest fatalities though. I'm sure it would get pretty boring if you used the same fatality 50+ times in the game.

The only hard thing about doing a speedrun, IMO, is that there are a lot of areas that require you to throw enemies into various things: the trees in the forest, the fire in the foundry and quite a few hooks. You have to backtrack a lot, but I would say that this is a very linear game. You never have two different places to go unless you intend to unlock a secret instead of furthering the story.

I estimate...from playing it earlier, that each place could be beaten in less than twenty minutes. Our time for the game is a little over 7 hours...and that was just leisure, so I know it could be done a lot faster.

Anyway...just thoughts.

Thread title:

First off, I don't plan on running this game for a while since I'm still on Jak 2 and whether or not that guy releases his Jak 3 run, I need to do that still...plus I know that my run can already be beaten by quite a bit with the new SDA rules...so I figured I would just give a heads up on my thoughts of a speedrun.

A friend of mine and I recently beat the game ko-op. There are a few platforming elements, but not much. Most of the bosses are pretty easy except for the last two fights in the game...I don't know exactly which abilities a person should upgrade since my friend and I had maxed ours, but I'll give it a shot:

Lui Kang - A person probably wouldn't need all of the uppercuts. It is a nice thing to have to keep certain bosses in the air longer...the more air they get the less chance they attack you. Fireballs should be maxed.

Kung Lao - The spinning attack helps keep bosses in the air and is a good crowd-control thing...probably wouldn't need to have the hat upgraded much. When it comes to kicking I know that I just used Lui Kang's fireballs on kintaro as my friend repeatedly kicked him. We timed it pretty well cause kintaro only got about two hits on us.

It's easier to get exp. from fatalities than just doing things normally...you'd have to use the fastest fatalities though. I'm sure it would get pretty boring if you used the same fatality 50+ times in the game.

The only hard thing about doing a speedrun, IMO, is that there are a lot of areas that require you to throw enemies into various things: the trees in the forest, the fire in the foundry and quite a few hooks. You have to backtrack a lot, but I would say that this is a very linear game. You never have two different places to go unless you intend to unlock a secret instead of furthering the story.

I estimate...from playing it earlier, that each place could be beaten in less than twenty minutes. Our time for the game is a little over 7 hours...and that was just leisure, so I know it could be done a lot faster.

Anyway...just thoughts.

AquaTiger

2005-10-02 02:10:24 pm

Never give up!

When I first saw this, I was concerned someone would get the run done before me. Then when I realized the run was ko-op I breathed a sigh of relief.

(Translation: Once I do the two current runs I have, I may consider a single-player run of this down the road.)

ANYWAY. Despite the fact I haven't completed the game yet (hey, I just got it yesterday!), I have some thoughts of my own.

Most of the speed seems to come from doing the boss fights quickly. I know you're probably aware of this, or you might have a faster method, but the fastest means of actual travel seems to be long-jumping as much as possible. (Yes, I'm still talking about MK Shaolin Monks, people.)

Quote:

A person probably wouldn't need all of the uppercuts.

I could never get those multi-uppercuts working the exact way they seem to imply. Same with the kick series.

Quote:

Fireballs should be maxed.

I would say this is a very good idea (the second and third fireball skills are worth every point IMO), but I would suggest making that the second thing that ultimately gets maxed out. What would I suggest first? I'll get to that in a second.

Quote:

I'm sure it would get pretty boring if you used the same fatality 50+ times in the game.

I haven't explored much, so I ask... how DO you get fatalities beyond the basic three the game automatically gives you? Are they among the large number of secrets in the game?

Anyway, I'd say find your fastest two (or maybe even three) and stick with them.... assuming, of course, that the time difference is less a second or two. (Just use the slower fatalities much less.) From what I've discovered on Multalities, if you can find a fast one that sounds like a great idea for when you see that dreaded flashing blue 'Danger' - the game seemed to be stingy on putting health in scenery objects to me.

Quote:

The only hard thing about doing a speedrun, IMO, is that there are a lot of areas that require you to throw enemies into various things: the trees in the forest, the fire in the foundry and quite a few hooks.

For Liu Kang at least (I know nothing of Kung Lao yet beyond the Shaolin Monks demo that was in Playstation Magazine), this is the reason I suggest maxing out your throw specials first. You can increase a few skills in other places before maxing this out, but I suggest getting the final skill in throws first - at least that's helped me judge my throws better.

One last thing. On skipping the cutscenes.... is it only possible after you've watched them at least once, or can they be skipped anytime you feel like it?

More on this later, when I've actually played the game more.

When I first saw this, I was concerned someone would get the run done before me.  Then when I realized the run was ko-op I breathed a sigh of relief.

(Translation: Once I do the two current runs I have, I may consider a single-player run of this down the road.)

ANYWAY.  Despite the fact I haven't completed the game yet (hey, I just got it yesterday!), I have some thoughts of my own.

Most of the speed seems to come from doing the boss fights quickly.  I know you're probably aware of this, or you might have a faster method, but the fastest means of actual travel seems to be long-jumping as much as possible.  (Yes, I'm still talking about MK Shaolin Monks, people.)

[quote]A person probably wouldn't need all of the uppercuts.[/quote]

I could never get those multi-uppercuts working the exact way they seem to imply.  Same with the kick series.

[quote]Fireballs should be maxed.[/quote]

I would say this is a very good idea (the second and third fireball skills are worth every point IMO), but I would suggest making that the second thing that ultimately gets maxed out.  What would I suggest first?  I'll get to that in a second.

[quote]I'm sure it would get pretty boring if you used the same fatality 50+ times in the game.[/quote]

I haven't explored much, so I ask... how DO you get fatalities beyond the basic three the game automatically gives you?  Are they among the large number of secrets in the game?

Anyway, I'd say find your fastest two (or maybe even three) and stick with them.... assuming, of course, that the time difference is less a second or two.   (Just use the slower fatalities much less.)  From what I've discovered on Multalities, if you can find a fast one that sounds like a great idea for when you see that dreaded flashing blue 'Danger' - the game seemed to be stingy on putting health in scenery objects to me.

[quote]The only hard thing about doing a speedrun, IMO, is that there are a lot of areas that require you to throw enemies into various things: the trees in the forest, the fire in the foundry and quite a few hooks.[/quote]

For Liu Kang at least (I know nothing of Kung Lao yet beyond the Shaolin Monks demo that was in Playstation Magazine), this is the reason I suggest maxing out your throw specials first.  You can increase a few skills in other places before maxing this out, but I suggest getting the final skill in throws first - at least that's helped me judge my throws better.

One last thing.  On skipping the cutscenes.... is it only possible after you've watched them at least once, or can they be skipped anytime you feel like it?

More on this later, when I've actually played the game more.

Mkt2015

Edit history:

Mkt2015: 2005-10-02 02:48:47 pm

2005-10-02 02:32:12 pm

MGS for PS1 forever.

Quote:

how DO you get fatalities beyond the basic three the game automatically gives you? Are they among the large number of secrets in the game?

I knew there were more fatalities than just the one for each character...the first person in ko-op who gets to do a fatality actually gets the button combo listed. I went to gamefaqs.com to the message board and found all most all of them among some of the threads.

Quote:

but the fastest means of actual travel seems to be long-jumping as much as possible

Correct, but you can only do a long-jump twice without having to wait a few seconds for your energy? to load again.

By 2/3 of the way through the game I could easily execute a pretty lengthy combo. (lui kang) Roughly speaking it's Sq, Sq, Sq, Tr, Tr, Jump, Sq, Sq, Tr, R2. One could do Tr, Tr to get enemies up in the air and have them land on a hook, but I prefered getting them in the air and then throwing them at the hooks.

Kung Lao would not be a good speed choice because he can normally only take on one enemy at a time and is much slower than Lui Kang. Besides...the monk guys in outworld can easily be taken out with a R1+O as long as they are close to the edge...they just fly off the screen. That, and he is easier to combo with. I at first thought it was Kung Lao, but Kung Lao is just cheap. Get a guy in the air, hit Sq about five times, land, jump, repeat.

The only thing that Kung Lao really has going for him is the crowd-control. It can easily be used to juggle bosses 2, 3, 4 times in a row. So, it's good that you have all of the special moves (not upgraded) right away.

And if you want to do things even faster in the game, you have to think about the game as if it were 2d. One example of this is during one of the boss fights. My friend when launch the guy up in the air and on the way down I would kick him with Lui Kang. Also, if you time it just right you can kick several bosses right after they get up (or maybe a split-second beforehand). I say this because this is how I always played MK 1, 2, 3.

Edit: Also, about the cutscenes. The majority of them can be skipped. It might take a few seconds to skip them, but they can be skipped. The intro sequence, for example, has to play until it shows the MK sign and then you can skip the rest of it.

[quote]how DO you get fatalities beyond the basic three the game automatically gives you?  Are they among the large number of secrets in the game?[/quote]

I knew there were more fatalities than just the one for each character...the first person in ko-op who gets to do a fatality actually gets the button combo listed. I went to gamefaqs.com to the message board and found all most all of them among some of the threads.

[quote]but the fastest means of actual travel seems to be long-jumping as much as possible[/quote]

Correct, but you can only do a long-jump twice without having to wait a few seconds for your energy? to load again.

By 2/3 of the way through the game I could easily execute a pretty lengthy combo. (lui kang) Roughly speaking it's Sq, Sq, Sq, Tr, Tr, Jump, Sq, Sq, Tr, R2. One could do Tr, Tr to get enemies up in the air and have them land on a hook, but I prefered getting them in the air and then throwing them at the hooks.

Kung Lao would not be a good speed choice because he can normally only take on one enemy at a time and is much slower than Lui Kang. Besides...the monk guys in outworld can easily be taken out with a R1+O as long as they are close to the edge...they just fly off the screen. That, and he is easier to combo with. I at first thought it was Kung Lao, but Kung Lao is just cheap. Get a guy in the air, hit Sq about five times, land, jump, repeat.

The only thing that Kung Lao really has going for him is the crowd-control. It can easily be used to juggle bosses 2, 3, 4 times in a row. So, it's good that you have all of the special moves (not upgraded) right away.

And if you want to do things even faster in the game, you have to think about the game as if it were 2d. One example of this is during one of the boss fights. My friend when launch the guy up in the air and on the way down I would kick him with Lui Kang. Also, if you time it just right you can kick several bosses right after they get up (or maybe a split-second beforehand). I say this because this is how I always played MK 1, 2, 3.

Edit: Also, about the cutscenes. The majority of them can be skipped. It might take a few seconds to skip them, but they can be skipped. The intro sequence, for example, has to play until it shows the MK sign and then you can skip the rest of it.

AquaTiger

2005-10-02 10:17:47 pm

Never give up!

Now, after checking out Kung Lao, I have a few more notes.

-It seems much easier to juggle for more than one bonus hit with Kung Lao than Liu Kang. (Kung Lao's launch hits in all directions, Liu Kang's hits in only one as far as I can tell.)

-Forget upgrading either special "launcher series" (the ones based around the Triangle button) - I'm pretty sure you'll fare better simply moving under an airborne target to repeat the launch special.

-Liu Kang's Fatalities are, for the most part, faster. (Kung Lao's tend to be simply fun to watch, unfortunately.) I'll come up with exact times later if you want them.

-In a speedrun, I speculate that Liu Kang will be able to build experience faster relying mostly on Fatalities. Kung Lao, on the other hand, seems faster using the combo system as an experience-building tool (I once racked up 2400 experience because of a single combo series, and I would have had more if I hadn't run out of enemies in that spot).

-Judging from what I'm hearing, remind me never to try playing against you directly in any of those three MK games.

Now, after checking out Kung Lao, I have a few more notes.

-It seems much easier to juggle for more than one bonus hit with Kung Lao than Liu Kang.  (Kung Lao's launch hits in all directions, Liu Kang's hits in only one as far as I can tell.)

-Forget upgrading either special "launcher series" (the ones based around the Triangle button) - I'm pretty sure you'll fare better simply moving under an airborne target to repeat the launch special.

-Liu Kang's Fatalities are, for the most part, faster.  (Kung Lao's tend to be simply fun to watch, unfortunately.)  I'll come up with exact times later if you want them.

-In a speedrun, I speculate that Liu Kang will be able to build experience faster relying mostly on Fatalities.  Kung Lao, on the other hand, seems faster using the combo system as an experience-building tool (I once racked up 2400 experience because of a single combo series, and I would have had more if I hadn't run out of enemies in that spot).

-Judging from what I'm hearing, remind me never to try playing against you directly in any of those three MK games.

Nikuvilin

2005-10-03 03:46:05 pm

DMC3,ZOE2 and Xenosaga 2.  Am I crazy?

I´d love to see a speedrun of this game.
Good Luck!

AquaTiger

2005-10-07 08:34:18 am

Never give up!

I've made my decision.

After I complete the Metal Slug 5 run, this game will get one of the next two possible runs 'on deck'. I'd be doing single-player, of course, as I don't have someone with whom I can regularly play ko-op.

The two runs that would be on deck (this and a Diablo 2 Paladin run) would be the first segmented runs I do. Focusing on this game specifically, I see three hours as the first reasonable goal for a run (I'll bring it down as things happen), now that I've figured out all the puzzles (yes, I do mean figured out - there's not an online strategy guide out there that has stuff for the whole game, and I don't buy strategy guides any longer).

I shall be figuring out the time lengths for the fatalities eventually, but before I do anything remotely related to speedrunning with this game, I have a question - Would people rather see Liu Kang or Kung Lao in a single-player run? (The two secret characters are right out, because they have to be unlocked and it's generally a requirement that the game be run without any unlockables first.)

I've made my decision.

After I complete the Metal Slug 5 run, this game will get one of the next two possible runs 'on deck'.  I'd be doing single-player, of course, as I don't have someone with whom I can regularly play ko-op.

The two runs that would be on deck (this and a Diablo 2 Paladin run) would be the first segmented runs I do.  Focusing on this game specifically, I see three hours as the first reasonable goal for a run (I'll bring it down as things happen), now that I've figured out all the puzzles (yes, I do mean figured out - there's not an online strategy guide out there that has stuff for the whole game, and I don't buy strategy guides any longer).

I shall be figuring out the time lengths for the fatalities eventually, but before I do anything remotely related to speedrunning with this game, I have a question - Would people rather see Liu Kang or Kung Lao in a single-player run?  (The two secret characters are right out, because they have to be unlocked and it's generally a requirement that the game be run without any unlockables first.)

Mkt2015

2005-10-07 10:04:03 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

Seeing as Lui Kang is overall faster, I'm sure the run would be a bit more exciting with him instead of Kung Lao.

Sxyazn

2005-10-07 03:47:51 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

I've made my decision.

After I complete the Metal Slug 5 run, this game will get one of the next two possible runs 'on deck'. I'd be doing single-player, of course, as I don't have someone with whom I can regularly play ko-op.

The two runs that would be on deck (this and a Diablo 2 Paladin run) would be the first segmented runs I do. Focusing on this game specifically, I see three hours as the first reasonable goal for a run (I'll bring it down as things happen), now that I've figured out all the puzzles (yes, I do mean figured out - there's not an online strategy guide out there that has stuff for the whole game, and I don't buy strategy guides any longer).

I shall be figuring out the time lengths for the fatalities eventually, but before I do anything remotely related to speedrunning with this game, I have a question - Would people rather see Liu Kang or Kung Lao in a single-player run? (The two secret characters are right out, because they have to be unlocked and it's generally a requirement that the game be run without any unlockables first.)

1up.com has vids of the fatalities (no idea if they're all there) in a "special guide".

Liu Kang sounds cooler.

[quote]I've made my decision.

After I complete the Metal Slug 5 run, this game will get one of the next two possible runs 'on deck'.  I'd be doing single-player, of course, as I don't have someone with whom I can regularly play ko-op.

The two runs that would be on deck (this and a Diablo 2 Paladin run) would be the first segmented runs I do.  Focusing on this game specifically, I see three hours as the first reasonable goal for a run (I'll bring it down as things happen), now that I've figured out all the puzzles (yes, I do mean figured out - there's not an online strategy guide out there that has stuff for the whole game, and I don't buy strategy guides any longer).

I shall be figuring out the time lengths for the fatalities eventually, but before I do anything remotely related to speedrunning with this game, I have a question - Would people rather see Liu Kang or Kung Lao in a single-player run?  (The two secret characters are right out, because they have to be unlocked and it's generally a requirement that the game be run without any unlockables first.)[/quote]

1up.com has vids of the fatalities (no idea if they're all there) in a "special guide".

Liu Kang sounds cooler.

KillerMiller

2005-10-13 12:58:22 pm

Hello, I watched many Speedruns on this site but I am not such a hardcore gamer to make a run myself.
And after I completed the game 5 times I always was thinking "this game would be good for a speedrun".

My best time was 2:10 Hours with SubZero, but I was not on a speedrun, i just played a little bit quicker to just finish the game with SubZero.

I think a time under 2:00 Hours is very possible.
I even would say around 1:30 is possible.

Liu Kang would be the man for the run imho.
You actually just need the fireball upgrades and the bicycle for killing Goro and Kintaro faster.

About my time, I used the ingame timer.

My ideas for timesaving would be:
Only Kill enemys that needs to be killed (like for opening a door).
Kill enemys as fast as possible (throwing or fatality or Multality).
Of course take the perfect route (because the game is absolute linear, this is not hard to find).
Kill Bosses fast.
(So far i just found out that the Orochi Hellbeast can be killed in 5 Seconds by using a Multality in that room.)

Dont waste time for getting exp. (I dont think you need extra exp. you get some after beating a boss).
And I am not sure if you really need any upgrade, because most bosses can be killed quickly with the standart moves.

And of course a co-op Run would shrink the time too.

Hello, I watched many Speedruns on this site but I am not such a hardcore gamer to make a run myself.
And after I completed the game 5 times I always was thinking "this game would be good for a speedrun".

My best time was 2:10 Hours with SubZero, but I was not on a speedrun, i just played a little bit quicker to just finish the game with SubZero.

I think a time under 2:00 Hours is very possible.
I even would say around 1:30 is possible.

Liu Kang would be the man for the run imho.
You actually just need the fireball upgrades and the bicycle for killing Goro and Kintaro faster.

About my time, I used the ingame timer.

My ideas for timesaving would be:
Only Kill enemys that needs to be killed (like for opening a door).
Kill enemys as fast as possible (throwing or fatality or Multality).
Of course take the perfect route (because the game is absolute linear, this is not hard to find).
Kill Bosses fast.
(So far i just found out that the Orochi Hellbeast can be killed in 5 Seconds by using a Multality in that room.)

Dont waste time for getting exp. (I dont think you need extra exp. you get some after beating a boss).
And I am not sure if you really need any upgrade, because most bosses can be killed quickly with the standart moves.

And of course a co-op Run would shrink the time too.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2005-10-13 11:45:43 pm

2005-10-13 10:46:02 pm

Never give up!

Okay, I'm thinking the characters (that includes the two unlockables, Scorpion and Sub-Zero) each have different enough abilities that they could all be run as separate categories. In addition, I think one ko-op run category could be allowed. I don't know if 100% runs are viable though - if someone wants to attempt them, I would suggest that a 100% run be 'all secret bosses' (I know of Mileena and Kano; what others are there?) as well as getting all moves and using each finishing move at least once. In any event.... man, that'd be a LOT of categories.

Why are secrets and Smoke missions not part of the 100%? To my knowledge, once you get those once, they count across all future files.

I myself intend to do a run with Liu Kang. In addition I plan on segmenting it for safety reasons - I'll work on the segment structure I've considered later.

Some questions before I really talk strategy:

-Should I actually do the 100% I suggested by getting all secret bosses as well as all moves and finishers? Or should I simply make this a 'pure speed' run?

-Is it faster to get the Wall Run immediately after getting the Fist of Ruin or just after the fight with Baraka (when you truly need it)?

-Do fatalities and multalities actually count toward the game's internal timer? (This will affect what ones I use, and I definitely plan on using more than one fatality. Maybe also both multalities if the time does not really count.) If they do, I plan on listing the times for each fatality (1up.com missed the multalities and one fatality for each standard character).

-Other than Mkt2015's nine-hit combo in an earlier post, what are some good combos to consider using against enemies? Remember, I still have to kill some normally to gain extra health.

Update: I found an interesting method of fighting Kintaro with one player that does damage somewhat quickly at low risk. This version works with Liu Kang, although I may test whether Kung Lao can do something similar. What you do is run at him from a distance. As soon as he starts his attack, hit Triangle to do a barrel roll. Even though Kintaro can't actually be launched by Liu Kang, this is actually good because you can get multiple hits with this move. You can even go through Kintaro!

I'm still trying to get this little trick to work on Shao Kahn proper - since he attacks faster than Kintaro I'm having trouble getting away after doing the move correctly. In any respect I am having major trouble fighting Shao Kahn (I'm still on my first playthrough with each character separately, and Liu Kang's at the end whereas I don't recall how far I've gotten with Kung Lao).

Update 2: I'll have the times later, but right now the quickest fatalities look like the Midair Slice and Body Slice for Kung Lao, and the Shaolin Soccer and Fire/Kick Combo for Liu Kang.

Okay, I'm thinking the characters (that includes the two unlockables, Scorpion and Sub-Zero) each have different enough abilities that they could all be run as separate categories.  In addition, I think one ko-op run category could be allowed.  I don't know if 100% runs are viable though - if someone wants to attempt them, I would suggest that a 100% run be 'all secret bosses' (I know of Mileena and Kano; what others are there?) as well as getting all moves and using each finishing move at least once.  In any event.... man, that'd be a LOT of categories.

Why are secrets and Smoke missions not part of the 100%?  To my knowledge, once you get those once, they count across all future files.

I myself intend to do a run with Liu Kang.  In addition I plan on segmenting it for safety reasons - I'll work on the segment structure I've considered later.

Some questions before I really talk strategy:

-Should I actually do the 100% I suggested by getting all secret bosses as well as all moves and finishers?  Or should I simply make this a 'pure speed' run?

-Is it faster to get the Wall Run immediately after getting the Fist of Ruin or just after the fight with Baraka (when you truly need it)?

-Do fatalities and multalities actually count toward the game's internal timer?  (This will affect what ones I use, and I definitely plan on using more than one fatality.  Maybe also both multalities if the time does not really count.)  If they do, I plan on listing the times for each fatality (1up.com missed the multalities and one fatality for each standard character).

-Other than Mkt2015's nine-hit combo in an earlier post, what are some good combos to consider using against enemies?  Remember, I still have to kill some normally to gain extra health.

Update: I found an interesting method of fighting Kintaro with one player that does damage somewhat quickly at low risk.  This version works with Liu Kang, although I may test whether Kung Lao can do something similar.  What you do is run at him from a distance.  As soon as he starts his attack, hit Triangle to do a barrel roll.  Even though Kintaro can't actually be launched by Liu Kang, this is actually good because you can get multiple hits with this move.  You can even go through Kintaro!

I'm still trying to get this little trick to work on Shao Kahn proper - since he attacks faster than Kintaro I'm having trouble getting away after doing the move correctly.  In any respect I am having major trouble fighting Shao Kahn (I'm still on my first playthrough with each character separately, and Liu Kang's at the end whereas I don't recall how far I've gotten with Kung Lao).

Update 2: I'll have the times later, but right now the quickest fatalities look like the Midair Slice and Body Slice for Kung Lao, and the Shaolin Soccer and Fire/Kick Combo for Liu Kang.

Patricio

2005-10-14 12:28:14 am

MarioKart64.com biotch!

Someone do a Sub-Zero mythologies run, I dare ya.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2005-10-14 05:03:41 am

2005-10-14 04:53:34 am

Never give up!

Patricio, that comes later. MUCH later.

Anyway, I figured out how to adjust that trick of mine to reduce the risk to the point where you can use it against Shao Kahn. First, in Shao Kahn's case you want to roll AFTER his attack, but no matter what, you should immediately jump once thereafter to avoid retaliation. On occasion I've managed to trick Shao Kahn into his jumping attack, which puts considerable distance between him and myself. You'll want to mix this up with your projectile attacks as well. Also, come into the Shao Kahn fight with nearly full health and try not to take any damage during the first half.

Once he breaks out that super hammer of his, you want to stay away unless you're trying to do the roll attack into him. However, you want to keep that special move bar over half full, and make sure he doesn't trap you. When he goes into his swinging whirlwind attack, long jump away from him; if you've run out of long jump, double jump. This is to reduce the number of times you're struck with the hammer. When he rests, only shoot him with your own projectile attacks - don't use the Kintaro head, as he'll deflect it, and never melee him, as he'll just throw you.

Now, can someone revise this strategy of mine to make the Shao Kahn fight go much faster without bringing the risk up too much? Or, could someone see if this can be used with Kung Lao? (As for fighting Kintaro, because of the combo system's delay I've been able to chain 70-hit combos mainly using the rolling technique - as you can imagine, this brings his health down quite quickly.)

Edit: Also, the segment structure I've considered. Generally speaking, each level gets two segments, except for the Netherrealm and probably Dead Pools, which each get one, and maybe Soul Tombs, which could get three. Portal transitions will be incorporated into other segments. I'll work an exact structure no earlier than tomorrow, but generally speaking my saves are going to occur right before bosses. For levels without bosses, I'll be saving right before a known difficult spot.

Patricio, that comes later.  MUCH later.

Anyway, I figured out how to adjust that trick of mine to reduce the risk to the point where you can use it against Shao Kahn.  First, in Shao Kahn's case you want to roll AFTER his attack, but no matter what, you should immediately jump once thereafter to avoid retaliation.  On occasion I've managed to trick Shao Kahn into his jumping attack, which puts considerable distance between him and myself.  You'll want to mix this up with your projectile attacks as well.  Also, come into the Shao Kahn fight with nearly full health and try not to take any damage during the first half.

Once he breaks out that super hammer of his, you want to stay away unless you're trying to do the roll attack into him.  However, you want to keep that special move bar over half full, and make sure he doesn't trap you.  When he goes into his swinging whirlwind attack, long jump away from him; if you've run out of long jump, double jump.  This is to reduce the number of times you're struck with the hammer.  When he rests, only shoot him with your own projectile attacks - don't use the Kintaro head, as he'll deflect it, and never melee him, as he'll just throw you.

Now, can someone revise this strategy of mine to make the Shao Kahn fight go much faster without bringing the risk up too much?  Or, could someone see if this can be used with Kung Lao?  (As for fighting Kintaro, because of the combo system's delay I've been able to chain 70-hit combos mainly using the rolling technique - as you can imagine, this brings his health down quite quickly.)

Edit: Also, the segment structure I've considered.  Generally speaking, each level gets two segments, except for the Netherrealm and probably Dead Pools, which each get one, and maybe Soul Tombs, which could get three.  Portal transitions will be incorporated into other segments.  I'll work an exact structure no earlier than tomorrow, but generally speaking my saves are going to occur right before bosses.  For levels without bosses, I'll be saving right before a known difficult spot.

Tetsuo9999

2005-10-14 09:36:17 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

The head is actually the best way to damage him. He only blocks attacks on the side of his body with the hammer, so with some aim you can hit him with it. It'll knock him over and do some significant damage, plus you can get 2 or 3 fireballs or a hat throw on him safely.

I could see this being the most annoying segment in a speedrun since the "hitbox" for his blocking side seems to be anal to the point of it being random.

There really isn't a way to speed up the battle, unfortunately. You can't spam fully upgraded bicycle kicks on him like Kintaro (kick until around 10 hits, then use your flying kick to get out of his range), and he'll counter any other close range attack. The head/fireball combo does around 10% damage though, so it's not that bad.

Shang Tsung is easy, really. Hold the block button down, and whenever he is recovering from a fireball, hit him with 3 quick attacks chained into a special move (flying kick for Liu Kang, maybe the hat spin for Kung Lao). At this point, you can launch him twice while he's on the ground and follow up with another special move (this works on every boss). Other than that, just outlast him until he turns into Reptile. Unlike the other bosses, Reptile doesn't attack during his air recovery move, so you can spam simple juggle combos on him for as long as you please, even exceeding his lifebar! He does change sides at times though, so you'll still have to stay aware.

BTW, one of the best combos for normal enemies is just an extension of the one you posted: three weak attacks, juggle (this is an infinite, good for positioning) jump to the enemy, three weaks, air juggle, four weaks, air juggle, 2 weaks, and a throw. This should take off about 90% of most of your opponent's lifebar. For positioning, a launch into the power special move (hat throw/flying kick) is more than enough to put an enemy out of the battle while you deal with more threatening opponents.

I know that was WAY more information than you ask for, but I hope that ithelps!

The head is actually the best way to damage him. He only blocks attacks on the side of his body with the hammer, so with some aim you can hit him with it. It'll knock him over and do some significant damage, plus you can get 2 or 3 fireballs or a hat throw on him safely.

I could see this being the most annoying segment in a speedrun since the "hitbox" for his blocking side seems to be anal to the point of it being random.

There really isn't a way to speed up the battle, unfortunately. You can't spam fully upgraded bicycle kicks on him like Kintaro (kick until around 10 hits, then use your flying kick to get out of his range), and he'll counter any other close range attack. The head/fireball combo does around 10% damage though, so it's not that bad.

Shang Tsung is easy, really. Hold the block button down, and whenever he is recovering from a fireball, hit him with 3 quick attacks chained into a special move (flying kick for Liu Kang, maybe the hat spin for Kung Lao). At this point, you can launch him twice while he's on the ground and follow up with another special move (this works on every boss). Other than that, just outlast him until he turns into Reptile. Unlike the other bosses, Reptile doesn't attack during his air recovery move, so you can spam simple juggle combos on him for as long as you please, even exceeding his lifebar! He does change sides at times though, so you'll still have to stay aware.

BTW, one of the best combos for normal enemies is just an extension of the one you posted: three weak attacks, juggle (this is an infinite, good for positioning) jump to the enemy, three weaks, air juggle, four weaks, air juggle, 2 weaks, and a throw. This should take off about 90% of most of your opponent's lifebar. For positioning, a launch into the power special move (hat throw/flying kick) is more than enough to put an enemy out of the battle while you deal with more threatening opponents.

I know that was WAY more information than you ask for, but I hope that ithelps!

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2005-10-15 03:10:20 pm

2005-10-15 02:51:45 am

Never give up!

It definitely helps out. I've actually managed to peg him successfully with the Kintaro head thanks to that first bit.

Anyway, I just completed the game with Kung Lao for the first time, and I'm glad to point out what I think are the upgrades that are most useful in a speedrun for the standard characters:

-Liu Kang: Max out fireballs, and get the bicycle kick. After that, get the Tri, Squ, Squ combo (I think it's called the Fire-Ender). If you get more experience after that combo (but ideally you should not), go for combos before anything else.

-Kung Lao: Very different story. You want to max out your spin move almost immediately (I'll explain why later) and get just the first hat upgrade. Also, get the Dive Kicks combination upgrade. After that (but why would you go farther with experience?), combos first.

I'll deal with the unlockables on another day.

Also, I've discovered the best boss-fighting trick with Kung Lao. Get close and use your spin move. If they can be juggled with it, juggle them with it. But if they can't, keep spinning. I found that the maxed-out spin move deals massive damage against the heavy bosses (like Hellbeasts, Goro, Kintaro, and Shao Kahn).

If you don't want to juggle a standard enemy or a normal-size boss with the spin move, a perfectly-timed hat throw works as well, if not better. I've been able to chain up to four extra hits just from using the hat throw once against a falling target, and those hits were pretty decent.

I've also discovered Shao Kahn isn't quite a speed demon with that whirlwind attack of his - I can run for a decent amount of time around the arena before I have to use the long jump.

Time to do some more serious prelim runs, get the times for each and every fatality, and then get ready to do the real thing. My first goal is below 2 hours, and I've decided I may very well loosen up on the segment structure - however, it probably won't be by much.

I shall brief people on my progression and on the troubles that occur as the run goes on.

Update: First big session of this prelim run is still in progress. The first three segments to this point, and the total time after each segment, are:
-Beginning to first save (6 min 15 sec)
-First save to right before Kitana fight (26 min 25 sec)
-Kitana fight to first Living Forest save (34 min 10 sec)

These times take into account some goof-ups, of course, but I'll make sure to do these from rest later on, instead of continuous like I am now. I'll also make sure to draw out fights a lot less - I'm drawing out fights now to make sure I can check all the fatalities, but once I can do that I'm knocking off that practice.

I also forgot to take into account the traps when I fought Mileena and Jade. Now that I know how they work, I can use them to shave off whole minutes from that part.

Now, to continue on.

Update 2: Another segment in this marathon prelim run. From the first Living Forest save point to the first Soul Tombs save point is the segment, and my total time after the segment is 47 minutes and 37 seconds. I'm considering splitting that segment (taking the Living Forest save near the third tree) in order to shave off the minute or so of mistakes on the fight with the big serpent right before the Reptile fight. The total segment count looks to be in the teens at this rate.

Update 3: I did almost the entire game last night, and the remaining segments and the total time after each are:
-Start of Soul Tombs to just before Baraka (58 min 58 sec)
-Baraka to just before Goro (1 hour 19 min 1 sec)
-Goro to the Netherrealms save (1 hour 24 min 39 sec)
-Netherrealms to first Foundry save (1 hour 32 min 48 sec)
-Foundry to final save (1 hour 39 min 27 sec)

I'm looking to find a place to split the 'Baraka to Goro' segment, because of two deaths that did not factor into the time (one where you have to toss enemies into a pool so Raiden can zap them, once against Sub-Zero). I'm also not going to worry about the timing of the final battle in this run, which would have to be done manually.

All in all, below 1 hour and 45 minutes is very easy, but below 1 hour and 30 minutes appears nearly impossible to me. I'll see if I can get sub-1:40 in a segmented run.

It definitely helps out.  I've actually managed to peg him successfully with the Kintaro head thanks to that first bit.

Anyway, I just completed the game with Kung Lao for the first time, and I'm glad to point out what I think are the upgrades that are most useful in a speedrun for the standard characters:

-Liu Kang: Max out fireballs, and get the bicycle kick.  After that, get the Tri, Squ, Squ combo (I think it's called the Fire-Ender).  If you get more experience after that combo (but ideally you should not), go for combos before anything else.

-Kung Lao: Very different story.  You want to max out your spin move almost immediately (I'll explain why later) and get just the first hat upgrade.  Also, get the Dive Kicks combination upgrade.  After that (but why would you go farther with experience?), combos first.

I'll deal with the unlockables on another day.

Also, I've discovered the best boss-fighting trick with Kung Lao.  Get close and use your spin move.  If they can be juggled with it, juggle them with it.  But if they can't, keep spinning.  I found that the maxed-out spin move deals massive damage against the heavy bosses (like Hellbeasts, Goro, Kintaro, and Shao Kahn).

If you don't want to juggle a standard enemy or a normal-size boss with the spin move, a perfectly-timed hat throw works as well, if not better.  I've been able to chain up to four extra hits just from using the hat throw once against a falling target, and those hits were pretty decent.

I've also discovered Shao Kahn isn't quite a speed demon with that whirlwind attack of his - I can run for a decent amount of time around the arena before I have to use the long jump.

Time to do some more serious prelim runs, get the times for each and every fatality, and then get ready to do the real thing.  My first goal is below 2 hours, and I've decided I may very well loosen up on the segment structure - however, it probably won't be by much.

I shall brief people on my progression and on the troubles that occur as the run goes on.

Update: First big session of this prelim run is still in progress.  The first three segments to this point, and the total time after each segment, are:
-Beginning to first save (6 min 15 sec)
-First save to right before Kitana fight (26 min 25 sec)
-Kitana fight to first Living Forest save (34 min 10 sec)

These times take into account some goof-ups, of course, but I'll make sure to do these from rest later on, instead of continuous like I am now.  I'll also make sure to draw out fights a lot less - I'm drawing out fights now to make sure I can check all the fatalities, but once I can do that I'm knocking off that practice.

I also forgot to take into account the traps when I fought Mileena and Jade.  Now that I know how they work, I can use them to shave off whole minutes from that part.

Now, to continue on.

Update 2: Another segment in this marathon prelim run.  From the first Living Forest save point to the first Soul Tombs save point is the segment, and my total time after the segment is 47 minutes and 37 seconds.  I'm considering splitting that segment (taking the Living Forest save near the third tree) in order to shave off the minute or so of mistakes on the fight with the big serpent right before the Reptile fight.  The total segment count looks to be in the teens at this rate.

Update 3: I did almost the entire game last night, and the remaining segments and the total time after each are:
-Start of Soul Tombs to just before Baraka (58 min 58 sec)
-Baraka to just before Goro (1 hour 19 min 1 sec)
-Goro to the Netherrealms save (1 hour 24 min 39 sec)
-Netherrealms to first Foundry save (1 hour 32 min 48 sec)
-Foundry to final save (1 hour 39 min 27 sec)

I'm looking to find a place to split the 'Baraka to Goro' segment, because of two deaths that did not factor into the time (one where you have to toss enemies into a pool so Raiden can zap them, once against Sub-Zero).  I'm also not going to worry about the timing of the final battle in this run, which would have to be done manually.

All in all, below 1 hour and 45 minutes is very easy, but below 1 hour and 30 minutes appears nearly impossible to me.  I'll see if I can get sub-1:40 in a segmented run.

Tetsuo9999

2005-10-15 03:52:01 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I hope you maxed out your bicycle kicks as they speed the Kintaro battle up tremendously. Other than that, your planning looks good to me Smiley

AquaTiger

2005-10-15 04:34:56 pm

Never give up!

I'll try that idea, although I have a very difficult time getting the bicycle kick to work properly when I need it. That's what prevented me from putting it as a 'most useful' move.

Anyway, I'm going to try another prelim run later today, but without doing the excess fighting I did in the last one (I did it to build the Fatality meter enough to time all the Fatalities). The fastest fatalities I found for Liu Kang, and the ones I'm going to use frequently this time, are the Shaolin Soccer (7 seconds), the Flipping Uppercut (6 seconds), the Fire/Kick Combo (8 seconds), and the Fire Trails multality (7 seconds).

Notice that the game gives you two of those finishers I mentioned. Why are the fatalities they give you for free among the fastest ones? I don't get it.

Anyway, here's how my current segment structure winds up:
-Beginning to first save point
-Oni Warlord boss to save before Kitana (I'll split this segment into two once I can find a timely save in Wu Shi Academy)
-Kitana to Living Forest save point by the third hungry tree (as in, the ones you have to feed)
-Reptile's Lair to Soul Tombs save point
-Soul Tombs save to just before Baraka
-Baraka to save point just before Goro (I will split this into two as soon as I find that first Wastelands save point)
-Goro to the Netherrealm save point
-Netherrealm to the Foundry save point
-Foundry to the final save point in the game
-The final three bosses

The only real change from my last prelim run's structure is the fact that I'm holding off a bit on saving after the Kitana/Mileena/Jade fight. This is so that I don't have to restart from too far back if I have a bad fight with Reptile's pet (and I know I'll have several of those). It winds up being 10 segments so far, and it will be 12 once I find those two other good save points I mention.

I'll try that idea, although I have a very difficult time getting the bicycle kick to work properly when I need it.  That's what prevented me from putting it as a 'most useful' move.

Anyway, I'm going to try another prelim run later today, but without doing the excess fighting I did in the last one (I did it to build the Fatality meter enough to time all the Fatalities).  The fastest fatalities I found for Liu Kang, and the ones I'm going to use frequently this time, are the Shaolin Soccer (7 seconds), the Flipping Uppercut (6 seconds), the Fire/Kick Combo (8 seconds), and the Fire Trails multality (7 seconds).

Notice that the game gives you two of those finishers I mentioned.  Why are the fatalities they give you for free among the fastest ones?  I don't get it.

Anyway, here's how my current segment structure winds up:
-Beginning to first save point
-Oni Warlord boss to save before Kitana (I'll split this segment into two once I can find a timely save in Wu Shi Academy)
-Kitana to Living Forest save point by the third hungry tree (as in, the ones you have to feed)
-Reptile's Lair to Soul Tombs save point
-Soul Tombs save to just before Baraka
-Baraka to save point just before Goro (I will split this into two as soon as I find that first Wastelands save point)
-Goro to the Netherrealm save point
-Netherrealm to the Foundry save point
-Foundry to the final save point in the game
-The final three bosses

The only real change from my last prelim run's structure is the fact that I'm holding off a bit on saving after the Kitana/Mileena/Jade fight.  This is so that I don't have to restart from too far back if I have a bad fight with Reptile's pet (and I know I'll have several of those).  It winds up being 10 segments so far, and it will be 12 once I find those two other good save points I mention.

Tetsuo9999

2005-10-15 10:55:30 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

The bicycle kick is only worth maxing out for the Kintaro and Goro fights since you can used the maxed version's additional flying kick to get out of harm's way. I can beat Kintaro without getting hit in only a minute or two using just that move alone. Also, fireballs will sometimes get him out of his jumping pattern.

AquaTiger

2005-10-16 07:27:12 pm

Never give up!

All right. I'll make sure to remember that.

Anyway, I did a test of several segments in a row yesterday and I wound up with a time of 41:35 at the Soul Tombs save - over six minutes faster than my last prelim run. Here's the segment breakdown, with the total time after each segment listed:

=Beginning to first save: 4:58
=Oni Warlord to final save at Wu Shi Academy: 14:58
=Wu Shi save point to save before Kitana: 22:01
=Kitana to the second save point in the Living Forest: 32:28
=Reptile's Lair to the first Soul Tombs save: 41:35

Now, here's where I've hit a snag. What's the best way to deal with the Orochi Hellbeast in the Soul Tombs? I keep dying against him and I insist that my run should have no deaths.

Also, I shall be doing these practice runs until I do not improve by more than 10 seconds per save - that equates to about a minute by the time I fight Baraka, and two minutes for the whole run. Only when I've hit that impasse will I record.

Mkt2015

Edit history:

Mkt2015: 2005-10-16 07:39:37 pm

2005-10-16 07:38:52 pm

MGS for PS1 forever.

I don't know if this will help or not. At first I thought of the boss fight in the foundry, but you're talking about the soul tombs. Well, you don't have to kill the guy in the foundry...you just have to throw guys into the hooks and then go up. That's it. I know this because I made a friend of mine go after the guy so he could be preoccupied while I did the enemy/hook things and I got done before he did so we just went up.

In other words...you may not even have to kill the guy.

BDA

2005-10-16 08:35:50 pm

Let's fight to computer!

AquaTiger: I just kept my distance, dealt with the Tarkata around him and then threw rocks at him until he died (they're lying around all over, and they regenerate). Probably not the fastest way, but it works and it's pretty safe.

AquaTiger

2005-10-16 08:51:14 pm

Never give up!

Funny thing is, I read bsidwell's post just AFTER I did the segment and actually completed that part.

The way I ran the "Soul Tombs to save before Baraka" segment is this: I took the side where you have to wreck the green orb FIRST. While clearing that side, I made sure to dawdle long enough there to acquire two levels of Fatality meter - enough for a Multality.

Once I got to the side where you have to fight the Hellbeast, I ran that as normal, making sure to avoid using any fatalities, and then when you have to fight the Hellbeast, I used a Multality to take out those three Tarkata. (Good health boost, too, I might add.) Then I relied on uppercuts (not upgraded) and the bicycle kick (which I've finally figured out how to do properly) to finish him off fast.

My total time after that segment is 51:21 - which means I am now seven and a half minutes ahead of my last time. And this is only the halfway segment! (As in, the sixth one out of the 12 I plan to do.) At this rate, I will indeed be able to pull off sub-1:30 - about half the time I initially thought was required. I'm still doing this practice until the total run improvement is two minutes or less, because that would tell me I've optimized it well enough.

Before I get too carried away, will someone remind me if there is a save point in the Wastelands BEFORE you have to fight Sub-Zero? If there is, that's where I'm cutting off my next segment.

Funny thing is, I read bsidwell's post just AFTER I did the segment and actually completed that part.

The way I ran the "Soul Tombs to save before Baraka" segment is this: I took the side where you have to wreck the green orb FIRST.  While clearing that side, I made sure to dawdle long enough there to acquire two levels of Fatality meter - enough for a Multality.

Once I got to the side where you have to fight the Hellbeast, I ran that as normal, making sure to avoid using any fatalities, and then when you have to fight the Hellbeast, I used a Multality to take out those three Tarkata.  (Good health boost, too, I might add.)  Then I relied on uppercuts (not upgraded) and the bicycle kick (which I've finally figured out how to do properly) to finish him off fast.

My total time after that segment is 51:21 - which means I am now seven and a half minutes ahead of my last time.  And this is only the halfway segment!  (As in, the sixth one out of the 12 I plan to do.)  At this rate, I will indeed be able to pull off sub-1:30 - about half the time I initially thought was required.  I'm still doing this practice until the total run improvement is two minutes or less, because that would tell me I've optimized it well enough.

Before I get too carried away, will someone remind me if there is a save point in the Wastelands BEFORE you have to fight Sub-Zero?  If there is, that's where I'm cutting off my next segment.

BDA

Edit history:

BDA: 2005-10-16 10:54:00 pm

2005-10-16 10:46:46 pm

Let's fight to computer!

I'm pretty sure there's one in the area where the mercenaries are fighting each other. Let me go check.

Edit: Yes, just checked, it's pretty much directly opposite of where you enter the wastelands.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2005-10-16 10:59:32 pm

2005-10-16 10:54:49 pm

Never give up!

Never mind. I happened to discover it wedged way back in the area you mentioned.

Anyway, my latest segments, with total times in parentheses:
=Baraka to the aforementioned Wastelands save (1:01:09)
=Sub-Zero fight to just before Goro (1:09:56)
=Goro fight to Netherrealm save (1:14:45)
=Netherrealm to early Foundry save (1:22:48)

Also, what's the best way to get those demon guys onto the hooks in the room with the Hellbeast in the foundry? (I'm going to ignore the Hellbeast as best as I can.) They seem to sling fire too fast for me to uppercut them.

Edit: In addition, why oh why do I always wind up only seeing bsidwell's advice AFTER the segment in question is done?

BDA

2005-10-16 11:04:40 pm

Let's fight to computer!

I guess I should try typing faster. Anyway, I got those guys on the hooks with Kung Lao's throw, but I haven't played Liu Kang at all so I don't know if his has the air to get them up there.
The game is fairly generous about aim, thankfully... otherwise I would've been tearing my hair out in quite a few spots.

Mkt2015

2005-10-16 11:26:39 pm

MGS for PS1 forever.

Use tri, tri to get them up and then aim and throw at each hook.