Mega Man 2

2011-12-01 10:13:38 am

where exactly do you zip leftward during speedruns...? also, i can help you with vertical zips if you tell me which spots you're trying to get them to work at. could also try and give a general explanation if you want.

MegaManiac

Edit history:

MegaManiac: 2011-12-01 12:34:20 pm

2011-12-01 12:24:23 pm

Quote from cyghfer:

where exactly do you zip leftward during speedruns...? also, i can help you with vertical zips if you tell me which spots you're trying to get them to work at. could also try and give a general explanation if you want.

sorry i meant leftward facing zips, rightward going.
for vertical zip, the most helpful spot would probably be one of the ones in the wily 1 stage, vertically zipping past the first ladder room with the gun joe guy with the sheild, or on the last long ladder where you have to use 3 item 1s right before.
also, a general explanation would be pretty helpful as well. like which way relative to the wall do you face before zipping, when to jump or which direciton to go to, and when to grab the ladder and stuff like that. I really have no idea how the vertical zip works though, so an explanation would be nice.

also one more thing. when climbing up a ladder next to a wall how do you throw an item 3 onto the wall next to you and then immediately jump up onto it? thanks.

[quote="cyghfer"]where exactly do you zip leftward during speedruns...? also, i can help you with vertical zips if you tell me which spots you're trying to get them to work at. could also try and give a general explanation if you want.[/quote]
 sorry i meant leftward facing zips, rightward going. 
for vertical zip, the most helpful spot would probably be one of the ones in the wily 1 stage, vertically zipping past the first ladder room with the gun joe guy with the sheild, or on the last long ladder where you have to use 3 item 1s right before.  
also, a general explanation would be pretty helpful as well. like which way relative to the wall do you face before zipping, when to jump or which direciton to go to, and when to grab the ladder and stuff like that. I really have no idea how the vertical zip works though, so an explanation would be nice.

also one more thing. when climbing up a ladder next to a wall how do you throw an item 3 onto the wall next to you and then immediately jump up onto it?  thanks.

cyghfer

Edit history:

cyghfer: 2011-12-01 09:25:35 pm

cyghfer: 2011-12-01 09:22:16 pm

2011-12-01 09:16:17 pm

bear in mind i haven't TAS'd or studied the game to any degree, my experience is purely from running the game in realtime, so the following explanations may be a little rough around the edges.

basically, the way the NES palette is structured by tiles seems to affect how mega man is inserted into walls/ceilings. you'll notice that when you go to perform a normal zip, mega man always ascends to a certain exact height before you can begin zipping leftward. now, let's say you let the item-1 that is pushing you into the ceiling keep going - you'll be pushed higher into the ceiling an exact amount, basically what seems like one tile. vertical zipping comes into play when there is 1. a screen above the one you're currently in 2. a ladder touching your X-coordinate in the above screen. if you're lodged into the ceiling close enough to the top of the screen and you jump, you'll ascend so that you're not visible on the screen anymore. technically mega man is now in the above screen, etcetc. further jumps after mega man enters the above screen will decrease your Y-coordinate in the above screen, which affects the height you'll be at when you choose to enter said screen.

that's a really roundabout overview of the general phenomenon. here are some guides to perform the vertical zips in wily 1:

1. the 1st vertical zip at the dead end, when you start traveling upwards: the setup for this one is pretty precise but you can get consistent at it with practice. while you're on the item-1 rising through the small gap below the ladder, throw an item-1 while facing left and with sufficient distance below the small ceiling to the left of the long ladder AND throw another one somewhat above that one. after throwing the item-1, quickly position yourself so 1. you're facing rightward 2. the leftmost pixel of mega man's hitbox matches or is one or two pixels right of the leftmost pixel of the ceiling. this basically takes muscle memory to be able to position consistently. if you positioned yourself correctly, you should rise into the ceiling. when you've fully entered the ceiling, the item-1 above the one that took you into the ceiling should push you another tile length upward (or, to make it faster, you can jump and the same effect should be achieved). at this point mega man's sprite should be touching/overlapping the top of the screen. jump 3 OR 4 times and then press up+right. the screen should shift upward and mega man should again be touching the top of the screen, halfway into the ladder.

in this position, pressing jump once will shift mega man from the climbing sprite to the standing still sprite. pressing jump again will, like before, send him to the above screen, and subsequent jumps will push his Y-coordinate in the above screen down. so, you want to hit jump around 11-13 times and then press up. okay, this is important: IF, when the screen scrolls up to the next screen, mega man is partway in the ceiling, simply hold left and press A, and he will descend onto the ground below without zipping rightward (if you're too far into the ceiling you'll be unable to reach the ground and will be forced to zip rightward and kill yourself). IF mega man's sprite is in the climbing animation and is barely touching the top of the ladder, hold up + RIGHT to avoid entering the ceiling and subsequently zipping to your death.

2. the vertical zip through the long ladder leading to the wily dragon stretch: the setup for this one starts in the screen with the little ground robot that moves leftward. you need to jump up three item-1s so that mega man's sprite hits the ladder when he's offscreen. simply make sure you're holding up+right when such happens (mega man's sprite touches the ladder sprite while above-screen). in the next screen, mega man will be partially hanging off the ladder. throw an item-1, climb up the ladder and then jump & throw item-1s so that, when mega man touches the ceiling while standing on the 3rd item-1, the leftmost pixel of mega man's hitbox is AT LEAST 1 pixel left of the leftmost pixel of the edge of the ceiling. be aware that mega man's "throw animation," during which you can't move, will be active for a short time after you land on the 3rd item-1 unless you jump out of it, but as you probably know jumping while you're rising into the ceiling promptly gets you ejected from it (in most cases). so ideally you want to either land so that you're positioned at least a pixel left of the ceiling or you want to throw the 1st item-1 low enough so that you have plenty of room to walk after the throw animation ends such that you're left of the ceiling. mega man should rise into the ceiling - jump 3 OR 4 times and press up+left. in the next screen, switch to quick boomerang - jumping will, in this case, eject you wholly onto the ladder instead of making mega man ascend a tile upward. switching weapons avoids this. after switching to Q, jump twice and then press up, and voila, you'll be at the top of the above screen. then simply hold down+right to advance toward the wily dragon.

ok, damn, explaining zips in detail is really lengthy. hopefully those explanations will give you a clear idea of how vertical zips work in general and you can work out the particular ones that exist in wily 4.

concerning the item-3 question - this is dependent on mega man's position relative to the reoccurring 16-pixel tiles the game is structured on. basically, all i can say is look VERY closely at the exact position mega man is at relative to the ladder graphics directly above mega man's sprite when seth throws the item-3s in crash man stage and wily 4. you only have a window of a few pixels to be able to throw the item-3 and be able to land on it after immediately ceasing to grab the ladder (left or right + A). if you're too high, the item-3 will go way above you, and if you're too low, the item-3 won't be quite low enough for mega man to land on it.

if anything is confusing please ask. good luck!

bear in mind i haven't TAS'd or studied the game to any degree, my experience is purely from running the game in realtime, so the following explanations may be a little rough around the edges.

basically, the way the NES palette is structured by tiles seems to affect how mega man is inserted into walls/ceilings. you'll notice that when you go to perform a normal zip, mega man always ascends to a certain exact height before you can begin zipping leftward. now, let's say you let the item-1 that is pushing you into the ceiling keep going - you'll be pushed higher into the ceiling an exact amount, basically what seems like one tile. vertical zipping comes into play when there is 1. a screen above the one you're currently in 2. a ladder touching your X-coordinate in the above screen. if you're lodged into the ceiling close enough to the top of the screen and you jump, you'll ascend so that you're not visible on the screen anymore. technically mega man is now in the above screen, etcetc. further jumps after mega man enters the above screen will decrease your Y-coordinate in the above screen, which affects the height you'll be at when you choose to enter said screen.

that's a really roundabout overview of the general phenomenon. here are some guides to perform the vertical zips in wily 1:

1. the 1st vertical zip at the dead end, when you start traveling upwards: the setup for this one is pretty precise but you can get consistent at it with practice. while you're on the item-1 rising through the small gap below the ladder, throw an item-1 while facing left and with sufficient distance below the small ceiling to the left of the long ladder AND throw another one somewhat above that one. after throwing the item-1, quickly position yourself so 1. you're facing rightward 2. the leftmost pixel of mega man's hitbox matches or is one or two pixels right of the leftmost pixel of the ceiling. this basically takes muscle memory to be able to position consistently. if you positioned yourself correctly, you should rise into the ceiling. when you've fully entered the ceiling, the item-1 above the one that took you into the ceiling should push you another tile length upward (or, to make it faster, you can jump and the same effect should be achieved). at this point mega man's sprite should be touching/overlapping the top of the screen. jump 3 OR 4 times and then press up+right. the screen should shift upward and mega man should again be touching the top of the screen, halfway into the ladder.

in this position, pressing jump once will shift mega man from the climbing sprite to the standing still sprite. pressing jump again will, like before, send him to the above screen, and subsequent jumps will push his Y-coordinate in the above screen down. so, you want to hit jump around 11-13 times and then press up. okay, this is important: IF, when the screen scrolls up to the next screen, mega man is partway in the ceiling, simply hold left and press A, and he will descend onto the ground below without zipping rightward (if you're too far into the ceiling you'll be unable to reach the ground and will be forced to zip rightward and kill yourself). IF mega man's sprite is in the climbing animation and is barely touching the top of the ladder, hold up + RIGHT to avoid entering the ceiling and subsequently zipping to your death.

2. the vertical zip through the long ladder leading to the wily dragon stretch: the setup for this one starts in the screen with the little ground robot that moves leftward. you need to jump up three item-1s so that mega man's sprite hits the ladder when he's offscreen. simply make sure you're holding up+right when such happens (mega man's sprite touches the ladder sprite while above-screen). in the next screen, mega man will be partially hanging off the ladder. throw an item-1, climb up the ladder and then jump & throw item-1s so that, when mega man touches the ceiling while standing on the 3rd item-1, the leftmost pixel of mega man's hitbox is AT LEAST 1 pixel left of the leftmost pixel of the edge of the ceiling. be aware that mega man's "throw animation," during which you can't move, will be active for a short time after you land on the 3rd item-1 unless you jump out of it, but as you probably know jumping while you're rising into the ceiling promptly gets you ejected from it (in most cases). so ideally you want to either land so that you're positioned at least a pixel left of the ceiling or you want to throw the 1st item-1 low enough so that you have plenty of room to walk after the throw animation ends such that you're left of the ceiling. mega man should rise into the ceiling - jump 3 OR 4 times and press up+left. in the next screen, switch to quick boomerang - jumping will, in this case, eject you wholly onto the ladder instead of making mega man ascend a tile upward. switching weapons avoids this. after switching to Q, jump twice and then press up, and voila, you'll be at the top of the above screen. then simply hold down+right to advance toward the wily dragon.

ok, damn, explaining zips in detail is really lengthy. hopefully those explanations will give you a clear idea of how vertical zips work in general and you can work out the particular ones that exist in wily 4.

concerning the item-3 question - this is dependent on mega man's position relative to the reoccurring 16-pixel tiles the game is structured on. basically, all i can say is look VERY closely at the exact position mega man is at relative to the ladder graphics directly above mega man's sprite when seth throws the item-3s in crash man stage and wily 4. you only have a window of a few pixels to be able to throw the item-3 and be able to land on it after immediately ceasing to grab the ladder (left or right + A). if you're too high, the item-3 will go way above you, and if you're too low, the item-3 won't be quite low enough for mega man to land on it.

if anything is confusing please ask. good luck!

MegaManiac

Edit history:

MegaManiac: 2012-03-09 09:34:26 pm

MegaManiac: 2011-12-11 08:25:03 pm

MegaManiac: 2011-12-07 10:08:02 pm

MegaManiac: 2011-12-04 09:44:44 am

2011-12-04 09:30:48 am

sorry for making you write all that stuff for a noob like me, but it really helped, thanks. because of that, i now have a speedrun of 32:43! still crappy compared to you guys but im getting there. Smiley

EDIT!!!:

30:53!!! difficult zip glitch time!!! took me all day and half the night to finish, but its pretty awesome:)

coolkid

2011-12-13 01:57:07 am

Good job, that's not too shabby Smiley

Practice

2011-12-15 06:04:01 pm

pretty good, and cyghfer explained it really well.

If you want to beat my run, then just learn the big zip in woodman stage. There is a way to do it without pushing up + down, you just use quickman's weapon to grab the ladder at the highest point. This trick (while it looks insane) is actually pretty easy (MUCH easier than the vert zip and then getting on the item 2 below they monkeys). It also saves like 1 minute. good luck.

cyghfer

2011-12-15 06:10:45 pm

hey seth! i'm practicing to eventually try and compete with nou1's run. i've found a couple very minor time savers over his wily level strats. if you're aware of any recent strategies or ideas or anything (especially after TASing the game) i'd love to hear them.

do you plan to RTA this game again in the future?

MegaManiac

2011-12-17 08:56:10 am

hey how do you do the woodman glitch you are talking about? If someone could either explain it or post a link to a video or tas or something where it is done i would be very happy! Sorry for being such a noob...

coolkid

Edit history:

coolkid: 2011-12-17 03:45:36 pm

2011-12-17 03:45:27 pm

It's in no1's run (http://www.nicovideo.jp.am/watch/sm13963118 ), starting at around 12mins. As mentioned above; it really is easier than what the crazy guy does... You should be able to figure it out by just watching the video.

Emptyeye

2011-12-21 09:51:55 pm

Talk to the Hand

Got my Difficult Mode Glitchless time down to 43:03. I know there are people much better than me at this game. C'mon, some of you must be able to suck it up, go glitchless, and destroy this time. Wink

For the moment, though, it feels good to get such a big improvement.

BaronHaynes

2011-12-27 08:57:20 pm

Strange days, incredible days

Sorry Emptyeye, been trying for the past few days to get one in, but I kept miscalculating weapon energy and having to abort late in the run. Finally managed one today, at 38:26, Difficult, no-zips. Died once on the Quick Man lasers and once on the Heat Man blocks (the first batch, not the one you Item 2 over). Everything else went pretty well, though I had to farm for health drops a little in Wood Man's level after taking too many hits from the wolves. I grab two E tanks, one in Quick Man's level, one in Crash Man's, for safeties, but ended up using both before Wily 1 this time, luckily everything went smoothly.

I like that zip glitches are considered a different category, since I can't do them. Tongue

It lets me still have some times to compare myself to. Where are your trouble spots, Emptyeye?

Macheezmo

2012-04-06 08:49:45 am

I've been practicing this game a bit recently trying to get somewhat consistent on just the 8 bosses for now. I've been watching cyghfer's marathon video to learn most of the zips. I've got most of them down with some consistency, but I just can't figure out the Woodman death zip. I've got 2 main stciking points on it. The first is after he switches to Q and does the zip. I can do the zip sometimes, but I almost never make it over to the ladder. I almost always end up falling and getting stuck. And right after that when he goes up the ladder then zips and dies, that never happens for me. I just keep zipping and end up in Wily 3. I'm not sure what I'm missing here.

rggibson

2012-04-06 11:38:49 am

This is second or third-hand information, so although this works for me, you should probably take my advice with a grain of salt. For the zip that you start with Q equipped, to do it optimally, you need to time the pause right. I believe the best time to pause is when Mega Man is about 1/3 from the left of the screen. Pausing extends the zip long enough to reach the ladder. You can do it sub-optimally by pause-buffering multiple times if you have difficulty timing the pause right. Also, make sure you are holding up while doing this zip. For the final zip, you need to hit A to suicide. You should do so right after Mega Man passes the end of the lowest platform on that screen. I think you can kill yourself there anytime before Mega Man reaches the end of the screen (i.e. before Mega Man zips into Wily 3). Hope that helps.

Macheezmo

2012-04-06 08:21:36 pm

That helped a ton! Making sure I was holding up as I selected Heat during that zip made a huge difference it seems. I can hit that part about 33% of the time optimally now. And the end part I can do easy now, my big problem with that part was that I was climbing the ladder a little before I jumped off, once I stopped doing that it was simple. It's still a crap shoot trying to get all of the zips in one run for me, but I'm getting a lot better at it. Thanks very much!

Macheezmo

2012-04-24 10:34:57 pm

Finally got a pretty decent run. 33:47. No stupid deaths this time, though I'm using a few safer strats for consistency. Took about 3 tries to hit the zips in Quick man, Wood man, and Wily 2, but other than that it was pretty solid.

Phantasmagorical

2012-08-28 02:31:58 pm

So I'm pretty new to speedrunning (but not the speedrunning community, been lurking the forum and stream chats unregistered) and I chose MM2 zipless on normal as my first project. I've been doing some casual attempts for about an hour a day for a week and today I got my first completed run that I could bear to actually complete, with a time of 37:22. Not the best, I did game overed twice and used some safer/easier strats (particularly in crash man and the wily stages), but it's a start. I intend to improve this time in the near future; I'm sure it won't take long.

Joka

2012-11-13 04:54:00 am

Personal text

I got a pretty nice time yesterday - 33:13 (no zips, normal)
One death though Sad

Joka

2012-12-17 12:29:31 pm

Personal text

I.Hate.Wily4....so much

presjpolk

2012-12-17 12:37:35 pm

HELLO!

Quote from Emptyeye:

Got my Difficult Mode Glitchless time down to 43:03. I know there are people much better than me at this game. C'mon, some of you must be able to suck it up, go glitchless, and destroy this time. Wink

For the moment, though, it feels good to get such a big improvement.

Difficult mode? I always considered that the Only mode. Then I saw SDA and was shocked. Smiley

I should take a stab at this over my office's Christmas shutdown.

Joka

Edit history:

Joka: 2013-01-03 02:51:53 pm

2013-01-03 11:59:25 am

Personal text

~~32:01, normal, no zips, with one death :S~~

31:51 - no deaths!

OctoberDan

Edit history:

OctoberDan: 2015-10-06 04:32:39 pm

OctoberDan: 2015-10-06 03:14:29 pm

OctoberDan: 2015-10-06 03:07:07 pm

2015-10-06 03:06:32 pm

Don't want to start a new thread, I'll just ask here in really old one. I saw nice picture with explanation of Wood Man stage skip somewhere but didn't save it. And now I completely forgot where exactly I've seen it. Google didn't help. There are screens of level and red arrows on this picture as far as I remember. Can someone post a link to that, if he knows what I am talking about? I started to speedrun Mega Man 2 recently and for now only running it in zipless category (

there's really nothing interesting to see though). Now I am learning zips in this game and can do them in all of robot-masters stages except Wood Man. Watching streams and videos of other runners helps too, but that picture may help to fully understand what is going on.