Marathon Practice

2010-12-14 01:07:08 pm

Weegee Time

It might be helpful to have Zeromus's attack algorithm and which version of the game you're playing. I'm no expert on the game, but the more information available, the better the odds of coming up with a strategy.

RaneofSOTN

2010-12-14 01:40:30 pm

I want off the ride....

Quote from Rakuen:

It might be helpful to have Zeromus's attack algorithm and which version of the game you're playing. I'm no expert on the game, but the more information available, the better the odds of coming up with a strategy.

This would be valid if Zeromus had any regularity. There is no telling if he'll nuke or Virus at all. i've had attempts where i dont see them at all, and some where he spams them.

He also has a habit of 'storing' turns. You know how he shakes? It is possible for him to store a turn in that motion for later. Then multiple moves can go in succession. I've had him Big Bang -> Black hole -> Big Bang in one set (i had an elixir queue'd up before the end of the first big bang). So attack algorithm might help but i dont think so...

Aitamen

2010-12-14 01:57:25 pm

Bwahahaha... there WILL be domination!

Yeah, FF4 manipulation is frame based, so for human play, it's essentially random, iirc.

how much does a death cost you, timewise? maybe it is just faster, for purposes of the marathon, to smash your face into bad luck until it turns out than to level, if it's the only problem in the run... (like S2, where Met 2 is faster to just die and start over ~5 times and get the glitch than to run it normally... if you can get it by the fifth try regularly...)

how entertaining that'd be, I'm not sure, and I don't know where I'd put the argument for which way to go...

Pootrain

2010-12-14 02:54:03 pm

train kept rollin

Been playing Tony Hawks a lot this last week. The only problem Im having is consistantly hitting the secret tapes in Downhill Jam and San Fransico. If I cant get these down I'm just going to get the SKATE and get 5 benches tapes in School. This is slower then the secret tapes but only if I hit them both 1st time.

Oh and I'm hitting real times around 15 minutes rather then 10 so that might need to be changed.

Trials HD I know like the back of my hand so thats no problem.

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2010-12-14 03:04:28 pm

Rakuen: 2010-12-14 03:03:17 pm

Rakuen: 2010-12-14 03:02:58 pm

Rakuen: 2010-12-14 02:55:35 pm

2010-12-14 02:54:55 pm

Weegee Time

Found an algorithm for FF4. This is supposed to be the algorithm for the JP version of the game, but as you can see from the second video, the pattern remains the same.

Code:

JP battle and algorithm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0bEjXuVFC4

Code:

NA battle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYWmwNWNP1A

With that out of the way, here is the gist of Zeromus's attack pattern:

Starts with 65,498 HP. Has four stages of battle, marked 0, 4, 5, and 6.

Starts in stage 0, pauses for two turns, and uses Big Bang. Enters stage 4.

Stage 4: Pause for two turns, Big Bang, Black Hole, pause for two turns, Big Bang, Bio, Black Hole, pause for two turns, Big Bang, Black Hole, repeat.

If Zeromus is in Stage 4 and has 16,000 HP or less left, he will refill his HP back to the maximum as a counterattack, and move on to Stage 5.

Stage 5: Pause for two turns, Big Bang, Black Hole, Flare, pause for three turns, Big Bang, repeat.

When Zeromus reaches 12,000 HP or below, he will switch to Stage 6.

Stage 6: Casts Meteo every second turn.

However, there is an exploit with this:

"There's a problem with this though. He has another counter check for when he's reduced to 12000 HP or below. This counter check occurs first - it's designed to change Stage 5 (where he starts using a Big Bang/Black Hole/Flare combo and stops using Bio) to Stage 6 (Meteor every second turn). If he's not in Stage 5, then it skips the 16000 HP check and goes to the standard Summon and Magic counters.

So, if you reduce him below 12000 HP *BEFORE* he changes to Stage 5 via a counter at 12001-16000 HP, he will not restore his HP and will never enter the final two stages."

I've actually been unable to find anything about Zeromus storing turns except in this very thread so... what are you talking about? Maybe it's the FF4A turn bug? It occasionally grants both characters and enemies a full ATB bar, and it's not unique to the Zeromus fight. I know I've had characters attack 3 times in a row myself. It shouldn't occur in the SNES version.

Edit: Eventually I'll get that paragraph to read the way I want it to.

Found an algorithm for FF4.  This is supposed to be the algorithm for the JP version of the game, but as you can see from the second video, the pattern remains the same.

[code]JP battle and algorithm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0bEjXuVFC4[/code]

[code]NA battle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYWmwNWNP1A[/code]

[spoiler]With that out of the way, here is the gist of Zeromus's attack pattern:

Starts with 65,498 HP. Has four stages of battle, marked 0, 4, 5, and 6.

Starts in stage 0, pauses for two turns, and uses Big Bang. Enters stage 4.

Stage 4: Pause for two turns, Big Bang, Black Hole, pause for two turns, Big Bang, Bio, Black Hole, pause for two turns, Big Bang, Black Hole, repeat.

If Zeromus is in Stage 4 and has 16,000 HP or less left, he will refill his HP back to the maximum as a counterattack, and move on to Stage 5.

Stage 5: Pause for two turns, Big Bang, Black Hole, Flare, pause for three turns, Big Bang, repeat.

When Zeromus reaches 12,000 HP or below, he will switch to Stage 6.

Stage 6: Casts Meteo every second turn.

However, there is an exploit with this:

"There's a problem with this though. He has another counter check for when he's reduced to 12000 HP or below. This counter check occurs first - it's designed to change Stage 5 (where he starts using a Big Bang/Black Hole/Flare combo and stops using Bio) to Stage 6 (Meteor every second turn). If he's not in Stage 5, then it skips the 16000 HP check and goes to the standard Summon and Magic counters.

So, if you reduce him below 12000 HP *BEFORE* he changes to Stage 5 via a counter at 12001-16000 HP, he will not restore his HP and will never enter the final two stages."[/spoiler]

I've actually been unable to find anything about Zeromus storing turns except in this very thread so... what are you talking about?  Maybe it's the FF4A turn bug?  It occasionally grants both characters and enemies a full ATB bar, and it's not unique to the Zeromus fight.  I know I've had characters attack 3 times in a row myself.  It shouldn't occur in the SNES version.

Edit: Eventually I'll get that paragraph to read the way I want it to.

Essentia

2010-12-14 03:03:28 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

Quote from Rakuen:

If Zeromus is in Stage 4 and has 16,000 HP or less left, he will refill his HP back to the maximum as a counterattack, and move on to Stage 5.

You can avoid his HP refill if you always reflect spells from this point on. (Reflected spells are never countered, and his HP refill is a counter.) Deign does this in the current run on SDA. I'm not sure if this stops him from going into stages 5 and 6, and I don't know how easy it would be to do in a SS run.

Rakuen

2010-12-14 03:17:40 pm

Weegee Time

Quote from Essentia:

Quote from Rakuen:

If Zeromus is in Stage 4 and has 16,000 HP or less left, he will refill his HP back to the maximum as a counterattack, and move on to Stage 5.

You can avoid his HP refill if you always reflect spells from this point on. (Reflected spells are never countered, and his HP refill is a counter.) Deign does this in the current run on SDA. I'm not sure if this stops him from going into stages 5 and 6, and I don't know how easy it would be to do in a SS run.

FF4A fixes that reflect bug to an extent, so I guess it depends on what version of the game he's playing. :[

mikwuyma

2010-12-14 03:18:31 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

He's going to play on either the psx or snes version. He said he'd take donations for either one, but I'd rather have him stick to one because I don't think there will be a lot of donations toward version.

Essentia

2010-12-14 04:04:37 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

I'd say go for the SNES version (I'm assuming the it'll be the Japanese hardtype) - it's easier because the battle speed is much slower than on the PSX version.

Aitamen

2010-12-14 08:58:56 pm

Bwahahaha... there WILL be domination!

well, don't I look brilliant >_>

eh, happy to be wrong on this case~

RaneofSOTN

2010-12-14 11:26:41 pm

I want off the ride....

I dont know Japanese very well and even with the PSX battle speed screw ups i have battle speeds listed to make all fights do-able. If i knew japanese well and i had a FF4-HT cartridge i'd do that.

As for zeromus that sequence lies.... or there is something wrong with the Zeromus fight. I have gotten to the stage 6 a few times even reflecting my spells off of Rosa. (ya know?) Can he counter off his own spells?

And i'm pretty damn sure that i've seen zeromus get 3 turns in a row when i should've gotten something there. But at least that chart helps me in predicting his moves and makes it possible to be more prepared...

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2010-12-15 03:38:31 am

Rakuen: 2010-12-15 03:36:42 am

2010-12-15 03:15:07 am

Weegee Time

Well, Rane, here's what I've found. Deign's fight against Zeromus matches the algorithm perfectly, both in his segmented run and the TAS. His comments on keeping Zeromus from healing below 16k matches it. There's many videos on Youtube with all different version that all match the algorithm perfectly, and some skip the heal/phase changes by clearing the 4k gap from 16k to 12k in one attack. For example, This Video, which skips healing/phase change by throwing the Knife.

Literally everything I find points to the fight working exactly as described. I don't think any more searching is going to help this one. Maybe you've just messed something up in your attempts. :/

Edited: Woke back up. Being tired is no excuse for my being rude.

mike89

2010-12-15 03:29:33 am

SEGA Junkie

In lighter news...

Last four attempts at RKA all clocked under 36 with the best being 34:13. I'm trying to beat SJ's tourney run, I'm convinced I can do it if I get a run where I actually don't die.

I find I don't necessarily have "trouble spots" for this game, I have strats for everything and they pretty much always work. It's just that the game is quite unforgiving if you make a small mistake, which is very easy to do.

RaneofSOTN

2010-12-15 06:16:56 am

I want off the ride....

Quote from Rakuen:

Well, Rane, here's what I've found. .....

Well I guess i'll have to practice, and maybe I've just had bad luck where I might be somehow hitting that spot with a kain jump (which seems to negate counters as well). So I'll have to document my damage for a couple runs through Zeromus and see what fixes it. Could be just that I'm a little off and i'm somehow inside that 4k damage range.
Thanks for helping me out...

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2010-12-15 10:18:21 am

2010-12-15 10:02:34 am

Weegee Time

Actually, Jump does trigger counter attacks. You can really see it in a Behemoth fight, because Behemoths never act of their own accord:

Code:

SNES: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FO3skvXB9K0
GBA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRiIyMWl37M

So that might be the problem. :]

Essentia

Edit history:

Essentia: 2010-12-18 12:39:51 am

2010-12-17 06:01:47 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

I just finished another runthrough of Chrono Trigger - heavily segmented so I could practice parts over and over - and I was about 18 minutes ahead of the run on SDA at the final save point. My final time was probably around 5:57. I'm planning to stream tomorrow evening, and I should be able to get at least a partial SS run done.

Edit: I started a thread in Older Consoles here in order to get some help with some particular things.

Satoryu

2010-12-18 12:56:45 pm

Visually Appealing

I'm playing SotN to completion at least 6 days a week. This week I've been recording the attempts to see how my times are improving. I just did a 33:14 that is possibly submittable. I'll slap it onto YT to get some opinions.

RaneofSOTN

2010-12-18 02:27:28 pm

I want off the ride....

Quote from Satoryu:

I'm playing SotN to completion at least 6 days a week. This week I've been recording the attempts to see how my times are improving. I just did a 33:14 that is possibly submittable. I'll slap it onto YT to get some opinions.

just saying. Dont get used to ps2 w/ fast loading times.. if its ps3 it loads like a ps1. turn off that fast disc to get a better feel for times.. Rom even knows this...

romscout

2010-12-18 02:57:17 pm

that Metroidvania guy

Quote from RaneofSOTN:

just saying. Dont get used to ps2 w/ fast loading times.. if its ps3 it loads like a ps1. turn off that fast disc to get a better feel for times.. Rom even knows this...

it's still a great time and probably loads faster than either of us could do atm. looking forward to watching the run

Satoryu

2010-12-18 05:54:47 pm

Visually Appealing

I don't use fast disc speed when playing SotN. It actually causes the game to hang on the loading screens.

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2010-12-20 01:41:58 pm

mikwuyma: 2010-12-19 12:22:40 am

2010-12-19 12:21:35 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Oh yeah, I should probably go over each game.

Gunstar Heroes: I can beat this game pretty easily every single time, I just need to practice swan force and the shmup stage a bit.

Mega Man X4: X and Zero are looking solid, I just need to tighten them up a bit so I'm more consistent. Also, I shouldn't SDC final Sigma's head form first thing with Zero, I should just dash jump then react based on what Sigma is doing.

Contra III: I got a one-life run on stream the other day, that was pretty awesome. I just need to run through this every 2-3 days so I die less and I know how to make up for my deaths. I should be okay though.

TMNT4: I did a run with Mike, then another with Don, and aside from Rocksteady and Bebop with Don, this game is no problem. I even screwed up a couple of boss fights, but came up with improv strategies that worked out just fine.

Streets of Rage 2: Honestly, playing a bunch of Final Fight has screwed with my head playing this game, and I'm not sure if Josh can play online before we meet up at the lockin. However, I can still practice and get better at single-player.

Metal Slug 3: I can definitely get through the game fairly fast consistently, but I need to get that deathless run. :-/

Final Fight: Emptyeye and I have practiced this online and we're getting better, but we still die a bit too much and we could definitely coordinate better.

Castle Crashers: Easy. I just need to know my teammates can do the flying glitch. Angry

Summary for those too lazy to read: I'm pretty good with my games, but they can definitely use some more practice.

EDIT: Prince of Persia: Sands of Time practice!

Oh yeah, I should probably go over each game.

Gunstar Heroes: I can beat this game pretty easily every single time, I just need to practice swan force and the shmup stage a bit.

Mega Man X4: X and Zero are looking solid, I just need to tighten them up a bit so I'm more consistent. Also, I shouldn't SDC final Sigma's head form first thing with Zero, I should just dash jump then react based on what Sigma is doing.

Contra III: I got a one-life run on stream the other day, that was pretty awesome. I just need to run through this every 2-3 days so I die less and I know how to make up for my deaths. I should be okay though.

TMNT4: I did a run with Mike, then another with Don, and aside from Rocksteady and Bebop with Don, this game is no problem. I even screwed up a couple of boss fights, but came up with improv strategies that worked out just fine.

Streets of Rage 2: Honestly, playing a bunch of Final Fight has screwed with my head playing this game, and I'm not sure if Josh can play online before we meet up at the lockin. However, I can still practice and get better at single-player.

Metal Slug 3: I can definitely get through the game fairly fast consistently, but I need to get that deathless run. :-/

Final Fight: Emptyeye and I have practiced this online and we're getting better, but we still die a bit too much and we could definitely coordinate better.

Castle Crashers: Easy. I just need to know my teammates can do the flying glitch. >:(

Summary for those too lazy to read: I'm pretty good with my games, but they can definitely use some more practice.

EDIT: Prince of Persia: Sands of Time practice!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ksv9KRHUo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm0lbtL6PR0

romscout

2010-12-20 05:54:30 pm

that Metroidvania guy

sotn: need to start practicing again, but the any% run is pretty well all muscle memory by now (surprise, surprise). should be a good race with satoryu.

kirby super star: seems situated. i'll just play a bit while breaking from other practice to stay sharp enough. most co-op practice will be at the lock-in.

kirby nidl: got worlds 1-3 down nicely, gotta grind the rest hard. sir vg can probably crush me atm.

mmx: still grinding the sigma stages hard. mav stages are like clockwork.

ladx: grinded this big time today. went from 50% completion rate to completing about 15 glitched runs in a row. timing from jumping out of bed to dethyl dropping, best run was 7:36 and the worst was 8:21 (worst run featured me getting stuck in a wall on the way to the final battle and having to save/quit and redo that part). im getting the 1 frame quick kill on the blob about 50% and the moldorm quick kill about 95%. feel ready to go on this.

mario kart 64: ordered a new n64 controller and it's done wonders. about as ready as i can be for this considering how crazy 2p grand prix can be. should be fun, even if it's a little slow with powerup trolling.

castle crashers: i'll practice the flying trick, i swear.

sotn: need to start practicing again, but the any% run is pretty well all muscle memory by now (surprise, surprise). should be a good race with satoryu.

kirby super star: seems situated. i'll just play a bit while breaking from other practice to stay sharp enough. most co-op practice will be at the lock-in.

kirby nidl: got worlds 1-3 down nicely, gotta grind the rest hard. sir vg can probably crush me atm.

mmx: still grinding the sigma stages hard. mav stages are like clockwork.

ladx: grinded this big time today. went from 50% completion rate to completing about 15 glitched runs in a row. timing from jumping out of bed to dethyl dropping, best run was 7:36 and the worst was 8:21 (worst run featured me getting stuck in a wall on the way to the final battle and having to save/quit and redo that part). im getting the 1 frame quick kill on the blob about 50% and the moldorm quick kill about 95%. feel ready to go on this.

mario kart 64: ordered a new n64 controller and it's done wonders. about as ready as i can be for this considering how crazy 2p grand prix can be. should be fun, even if it's a little slow with powerup trolling.

castle crashers: i'll practice the flying trick, i swear.

tjp7154

2010-12-20 06:56:14 pm

#Casual

That's awesome Mike.

RaneofSOTN

2010-12-20 07:53:15 pm

I want off the ride....

SoTN: i had a set back since i broke my (fav) controller. But within a few head bashings and a lot of errors, got back to my old speed and started to improve again. Still not sub 9'ing the clock but i'm getting closer. Need to cut out bad errors that deal with precision and they are slowly going away. Need more WW/Mino practice on quick kill (precision). Also going to need to spend a day mashing out soul steal casts WITHOUT hellfire'ing.
State of the game: Avg Clear ~36-37 mins. Its going down now, for sure...

FF4: I had a perfect couple of warm up sets going on taking down Zeromus' AI (last struggle point of the game). But i kept triggering heal. This was cause Zeromus' hp is not 65498 in FF2us. Its 61000! So I kept triggering the counter on accident. Two tries after i realized this, got a strong quick kill. Was amazing... (btw I can usually get Zeromus down to 1/2 before Stage 4 in the AI).

CC: Need to practice the hover... and work on my arrow skillz

RE5: Need to play with my controller a bit, the "newness" of my controller messed with SoTN so it might mess with Re5.

RCR : need to practice w/ feasel again. have been doing a solo run once a week to keep in head. AI still sucks though.

SoTN: i had a set back since i broke my (fav) controller. But within a few head bashings and a lot of errors, got back to my old speed and started to improve again. Still not sub 9'ing the clock but i'm getting closer. Need to cut out bad errors that deal with precision and they are slowly going away. Need more WW/Mino practice on quick kill (precision). Also going to need to spend a day mashing out soul steal casts WITHOUT hellfire'ing. 
State of the game: Avg Clear ~36-37 mins. Its going down now, for sure...

FF4: I had a perfect couple of warm up sets going on taking down Zeromus' AI (last struggle point of the game). But i kept triggering heal. This was cause Zeromus' hp is not 65498 in FF2us. Its 61000! So I kept triggering the counter on accident. Two tries after i realized this, got a strong quick kill. Was amazing... (btw I can usually get Zeromus down to 1/2 before Stage 4 in the AI).

CC: Need to practice the hover... and work on my arrow skillz

RE5: Need to play with my controller a bit, the "newness" of my controller messed with SoTN so it might mess with Re5.

RCR : need to practice w/ feasel again. have been doing a solo run once a week to keep in head. AI still sucks though.

Rakuen

2010-12-20 08:05:17 pm

Weegee Time

Quote from RaneofSOTN:

FF4: I had a perfect couple of warm up sets going on taking down Zeromus' AI (last struggle point of the game). But i kept triggering heal. This was cause Zeromus' hp is not 65498 in FF2us. Its 61000! So I kept triggering the counter on accident. Two tries after i realized this, got a strong quick kill. Was amazing... (btw I can usually get Zeromus down to 1/2 before Stage 4 in the AI).

Well there's an interesting solution to the problem I wouldn't have thought about. I'm glad you've finally gotten the fight on lock.