Majora's Mask General Discussion

2009-06-30 07:58:52 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote from SoulCalibrII:

And I have another predicament: Should we go to Pirate Fortress first for the Hookshot and watch that cutscene, or should we go to Woodfall and complete the temple and watch the Deku Princess cutscene? Since we can are able to beat Great Bay Temple w/o arrows, I say we go there first. This way we have the hookshot for Woodfall, and don't have to watch the Woodfall cutscene. The Woodfall cutscene lasts about 1:09 and the Hookshot cutscene is about 1:01.

I assume you won't have the Deku Mask anymore?

Well I guess everyone here would want to see you do Great Bay Temple first. If it's both entertaining and faster, why not?

SoulCalibrII

2009-07-01 01:22:44 am

Real Time Route What do you think?

Jiano

2009-07-01 05:54:26 am

Quote from SoulCalibrII:

Real Time Route What do you think?

Few problems. Why are you getting 7 sticks before the bottle dupe? Getting Zora Mask first then WW to ikana is probably always the best start. Snowhead before STT for fire arrows, unless you're a god with the bow. Gyorg without arrows? Whats the strategy for Gyorg without arrows? Has to be slow right? Remember you can only do Zora Pots game during the day, and doing Snowhead during the day is a good idea, since the there's tons of enemies at night.

Also you only need 20 Chus to climb stone tower + do STT. After woodfall where are you getting the bombs for Snowhead?

MrGrunz

2009-07-01 06:53:57 am

Merry Chrismas =)

the deku princess cutscence also doesn't take over a minute

we timed it, when we planned the TAS route and it was something like 40 seconds

SoulCalibrII

2009-07-01 10:50:30 am

Good points from both of you. The 7 Deku Sticks is to get rid of the money that I currently have so I have an empty wallet for the Zora pot game, plus the deku sticks stay with you after you bottle dupe (at least I think they do, it does it with deku nuts), and we have to enter the shop there to learn the Scarecrow Song anyway. I didn't know you can only play the pot game during the day, gtk.

I forgot that we need fire arrows for Twinmold, so switching around Snowhead with Stone Tower isn't a big deal. Gyorg w/o arrows is easy since you have the Zora boomerangs. And how is that we only need 20Chus for climbing stone tower and STT? It takes 20Chus alone to climb stone tower. That seems llike TAS only since TAS has megahover.

I really dislike the idea of going to GB first w/o the SoS. The only downside to WW to Woodfall is that it requires another trip to the bomb shop. But it cuts the time we spend in the swamp area by about 1/4. After the bottle we can just fly out instead of supersliding across the swamp and killing the octorok, traveling across the poison get to the palace as a Deku, and worst of all have to use the slow Deku flowers to reach the entrance to Woodfall. Plus if you enter Woodfall through the normal entrance there is a 10 second cutscene too. The total time it takes to wrong warp and go to the bomb shop is about 3 minutes. Zora Mask first would eliminate the need to play the Zora game once though. If there is a difference, it is only a small difference but it is worth timing. Let me make a video and I'll compare.

And I just used a video I found on youtube to time the Princess cutscene, I didn't look to see if they optimized it; stupid mistake by me. Well, should we go to Hookshot first or Bow first? There is only a 20 second difference between the cutscenes (Pirate cutscene is longer), but I like the idea of having the Hookshot for Woodfall personally, so I think Hookshot should be first. The time hookshot will save in Woodfall should be enough to make the two routes practically equal.

Good points from both of you. The 7 Deku Sticks is to get rid of the money that I currently have so I have an empty wallet for the Zora pot game, plus the deku sticks stay with you after you bottle dupe (at least I think they do, it does it with deku nuts), and we have to enter the shop there to learn the Scarecrow Song anyway. I didn't know you can only play the pot game during the day, gtk.

I forgot that we need fire arrows for Twinmold, so switching around Snowhead with Stone Tower isn't a big deal.  Gyorg w/o arrows is easy since you have the Zora boomerangs. And how is that we only need 20Chus for climbing stone tower and STT? It takes 20Chus alone to climb stone tower. That seems llike TAS only since TAS has megahover.

I really dislike the idea of going to GB first w/o the SoS. The only downside to WW to Woodfall is that it requires another trip to the bomb shop. But it cuts the time we spend in the swamp area by about 1/4. After the bottle we can just fly out instead of supersliding across the swamp and killing the octorok, traveling across the poison get to the palace as a Deku, and worst of all have to use the slow Deku flowers to reach the entrance to Woodfall. Plus if you enter Woodfall through the normal entrance there is a 10 second cutscene too. The total time it takes to wrong warp and go to the bomb shop is about 3 minutes. Zora Mask first would eliminate the need to play the Zora game once though. If there is a difference, it is only a small difference but it is worth timing. Let me make a video and I'll compare.

And I just used a video I found on youtube to time the Princess cutscene, I didn't look to see if they optimized it; stupid mistake by me. Well, should we go to Hookshot first or Bow first? There is only a 20 second difference between the cutscenes (Pirate cutscene is longer), but I like the idea of having the Hookshot for Woodfall personally, so I think Hookshot should be first. The time hookshot will save in Woodfall should be enough to make the two routes practically equal.

Jiano

2009-07-01 11:15:29 am

Quote from SoulCalibrII:

Good points from both of you. The 7 Deku Sticks is to get rid of the money that I currently have so I have an empty wallet for the Zora pot game, plus the deku sticks stay with you after you bottle dupe (at least I think they do, it does it with deku nuts), and we have to enter the shop there to learn the Scarecrow Song anyway. I didn't know you can only play the pot game during the day, gtk.

I forgot that we need fire arrows for Twinmold, so switching around Snowhead with Stone Tower isn't a big deal. Gyorg w/o arrows is easy since you have the Zora boomerangs. And how is that we only need 20Chus for climbing stone tower and STT? It takes 20Chus alone to climb stone tower. That seems llike TAS only since TAS has megahover.

I really dislike the idea of going to GB first w/o the SoS. The only downside to WW to Woodfall is that it requires another trip to the bomb shop. But it cuts the time we spend in the swamp area by about 1/4. After the bottle we can just fly out instead of supersliding across the swamp and killing the octorok, traveling across the poison get to the palace as a Deku, and worst of all have to use the slow Deku flowers to reach the entrance to Woodfall. Plus if you enter Woodfall through the normal entrance there is a 10 second cutscene too. The total time it takes to wrong warp and go to the bomb shop is about 3 minutes. Zora Mask first would eliminate the need to play the Zora game once though. If there is a difference, it is only a small difference but it is worth timing. Let me make a video and I'll compare.

And I just used a video I found on youtube to time the Princess cutscene, I didn't look to see if they optimized it; stupid mistake by me. Well, should we go to Hookshot first or Bow first? There is only a 20 second difference between the cutscenes (Pirate cutscene is longer), but I like the idea of having the Hookshot for Woodfall personally, so I think Hookshot should be first. The time hookshot will save in Woodfall should be enough to make the two routes practically equal.

How much time could hookshot possibly save in Woodfall? Maybe 10 seconds in the first room? Megahovers are very doable on console also. When I tested bottle duping over sticks it reset the count to 0. I tested on emulator though, should probably try it on console.

[quote="SoulCalibrII"]
Good points from both of you. The 7 Deku Sticks is to get rid of the money that I currently have so I have an empty wallet for the Zora pot game, plus the deku sticks stay with you after you bottle dupe (at least I think they do, it does it with deku nuts), and we have to enter the shop there to learn the Scarecrow Song anyway. I didn't know you can only play the pot game during the day, gtk.

I forgot that we need fire arrows for Twinmold, so switching around Snowhead with Stone Tower isn't a big deal.  Gyorg w/o arrows is easy since you have the Zora boomerangs. And how is that we only need 20Chus for climbing stone tower and STT? It takes 20Chus alone to climb stone tower. That seems llike TAS only since TAS has megahover.

I really dislike the idea of going to GB first w/o the SoS. The only downside to WW to Woodfall is that it requires another trip to the bomb shop. But it cuts the time we spend in the swamp area by about 1/4. After the bottle we can just fly out instead of supersliding across the swamp and killing the octorok, traveling across the poison get to the palace as a Deku, and worst of all have to use the slow Deku flowers to reach the entrance to Woodfall. Plus if you enter Woodfall through the normal entrance there is a 10 second cutscene too. The total time it takes to wrong warp and go to the bomb shop is about 3 minutes. Zora Mask first would eliminate the need to play the Zora game once though. If there is a difference, it is only a small difference but it is worth timing. Let me make a video and I'll compare.

And I just used a video I found on youtube to time the Princess cutscene, I didn't look to see if they optimized it; stupid mistake by me. Well, should we go to Hookshot first or Bow first? There is only a 20 second difference between the cutscenes (Pirate cutscene is longer), but I like the idea of having the Hookshot for Woodfall personally, so I think Hookshot should be first. The time hookshot will save in Woodfall should be enough to make the two routes practically equal. 
[/quote]

How much time could hookshot possibly save in Woodfall? Maybe 10 seconds in the first room? Megahovers are very doable on console also. When I tested bottle duping over sticks it reset the count to 0. I tested on emulator though, should probably try it on console.

MrGrunz

2009-07-01 12:11:59 pm

Merry Chrismas =)

ok, unreal, ringrush, slowi and I figured out lots of stuff about bottle duping we didn't upload anywhere yet.

just something about deku sticks:
they go down to 0 after bottle duping. not because of any weird deku stick physics, it is a normal game physic, that refers to every item with a counter in the game. if you got 10 deku sticks after bottle duping, the number would be the old number + the 10 sticks. but if you get 1 deku stick it resets from 0 sticks.
works for nuts, too.

I somehow doubt, that the WW to woodfall is quicker. just a comperasion:
the WW to woodfall doesn't add any extra warping. you have to warp away and back to woodfall to buy new chus any way.
the WW to woodfall takes about 42 seconds. buying bombchus adds one extra SoS, so buying chus costs about 1 minute to get the extra money.
the WW saves 8-9 seconds in the woodfall section. it saves 25 seconds in the deku flower section. it skips the trip from the bottle to the deku palace. this saves 40 seconds.

so it is 1:42 against 1:14. means, the WW is lower.

the hookshot saves about 15-20 seconds in the woodfall temple, so I'd say, the woodfall before GBT is quicker

ok, unreal, ringrush, slowi and I figured out lots of stuff about bottle duping we didn't upload anywhere yet.

just something about deku sticks:
they go down to 0 after bottle duping. not because of any weird deku stick physics, it is a normal game physic, that refers to every item with a counter in the game. if you got 10 deku sticks after bottle duping, the number would be the old number + the 10 sticks. but if you get 1 deku stick it resets from 0 sticks.
works for nuts, too.

I somehow doubt, that the WW to woodfall is quicker. just a comperasion:
the WW to woodfall doesn't add any extra warping. you have to warp away and back to woodfall to buy new chus any way.
the WW to woodfall takes about 42 seconds. buying bombchus adds one extra SoS, so buying chus costs about 1 minute to get the extra money.
the WW saves 8-9 seconds in the woodfall section. it saves 25 seconds in the deku flower section. it skips the trip from the bottle to the deku palace. this saves 40 seconds.

so it is 1:42 against 1:14. means, the WW is lower.

the hookshot saves about 15-20 seconds in the woodfall temple, so I'd say, the woodfall before GBT is quicker

SoulCalibrII

2009-07-01 01:14:11 pm

Grunz, you say the "WW is lower" but it seems as though going for Zora Mask first is ever slightly faster than WW with your data. This is due to an extra SoS and shop trip. The time saved almost makes up for it, but not quite. And I think I will be able to collect 10 Deku Sticks before bottle multiplication. We will use them all up.

MrGrunz

Edit history:

MrGrunz: 2009-07-01 02:34:27 pm

2009-07-01 02:25:35 pm

Merry Chrismas =)

Damn, I'm just too dumb to explain

the sticks always reset from 0 after bottle duping, no matter what. it has nothing to do with how many sticks you have before dupping. it has to do with how many sticks you get the first time after bottle dupping. when you have made nuts to a bottle, you can either get a 10 nuts drop or a 1 nut drop. if you get the one nut (from the GB palm trees for example) the counter resets from 0, so the game shows 1 in your inventory then.
as there are only 1 deku stick drops, the counter will always reset from 0.
that is the reason, why we overwrite deku nuts, bremen mask and deku mask in the TAS route Wink

I totally agree, that the WW would be awesome like hell, but it is definately slower. We had a rupee problem before including the WW already, so collecting new rupees could actually even more time than I said

Toes

2009-07-04 04:57:19 am

I don't know if this has already been posted, but would this trick be allowed in a game time run?

There's also another method which involves a gossip stone. Walk up the the stone and pull out your ocarina. Then press b then rapidly press A. Link should stumble back and time will be stopped.

SoulCalibrII

Edit history:

SoulCalibrII: 2009-07-04 03:39:10 pm

2009-07-04 02:20:11 pm

Quote from Toesrus:

I don't know if this has already been posted, but would this trick be allowed in a game time run?

I'd say this would be banned since it is messing with the internal timer. This is different than pausing or changing masks to stop the game timer, because Link is able to move around and play the game. It would also be a very boring run to watch because the glitch would be constantly activated, but in theory you could "beat the game" in a few game hours. The only time spent would be just to get a bottle or to bomb hover.

It is nice that this skips cutscenes though, possibly useful for a real time run.

RingRush

2009-07-04 07:44:19 pm

I don't see why the bottle trick should be disallowed. It makes game time a lot more interesting.

This isn't a permanent time stop, there are limitations to it. What it will force, is alternate routes instead of the same old any% route with a delayed bottle dupe. Runs will now try to save this as long as possible, meaning they'll take routes they'ld otherwise avoid because they could easily bomb hover or something similar. And if you say "manipulating the timer" should be banned, then ban Inverted Song of Time too. It is a legitimate glitch just like any other, and considering the run is specifically about using the games internal timing system, not necesarily being fast real time, it should be allowed in the same way supersliding is allowed for the any%.

SoulCalibrII

2009-07-04 10:19:00 pm

Quote from RingRush:

And if you say "manipulating the timer" should be banned, then ban Inverted Song of Time too. It is a legitimate glitch just like any other, and considering the run is specifically about using the games internal timing system, not necesarily being fast real time, it should be allowed in the same way supersliding is allowed for the any%.

SDA rules: "Game timing: The game's internal timer will be used unless it is inconsistent, or fails to display the time after completion."

Using a glitch to stop the game timer makes the timer "inconsistent" and is against SDA rules. It is much like the glitch in Resident Evil 5 which eliminates your time played from checkpoint to checkpoint, which is also against SDA ruling. You would be doing the exact same thing in Zelda too; just going from area to area (checkpoint to checkpoint) and activate the glitch every load screen to eliminate that time. Using the ISoT to manipulate the game timer is an intentional programmed part of the game, not a glitch, so that sort of "timer manipulation" is obviously allowed. And all supersliding does is make getting from point A to B faster, not eliminate the time it took to get from A to B; there's a huge difference.

[quote="RingRush"]
And if you say "manipulating the timer" should be banned, then ban Inverted Song of Time too. It is a legitimate glitch just like any other, and considering the run is specifically about using the games internal timing system, not necesarily being fast real time, it should be allowed in the same way supersliding is allowed for the any%.
[/quote]

SDA rules: "Game timing: The game's internal timer will be used unless it is inconsistent, or fails to display the time after completion."

Using a glitch to stop the game timer makes the timer "inconsistent" and is against SDA rules. It is much like the glitch in Resident Evil 5 which eliminates your time played from checkpoint to checkpoint, which is also against SDA ruling. You would be doing the exact same thing in Zelda too; just going from area to area (checkpoint to checkpoint) and activate the glitch every load screen to eliminate that time. Using the ISoT to manipulate the game timer is an intentional programmed part of the game, not a glitch, so that sort of "timer manipulation" is obviously allowed. And all supersliding does is make getting from point A to B faster, not eliminate the time it took to get from A to B; there's a huge difference.

RingRush

2009-07-05 01:02:22 pm

That game time rule is specifically for games with a single method of timing, like Metroid Prime. If a conscious decision to split game time and real time is made, then clearly that is an acceptance of the game clock's terms, whatever they may be, for the division. Do you also propose banning supersliding during a cutscene, since that allows you to move without game time counting? What about even just pausing for extended periods of time? I'll re-emphasize: the fact that we are specifically going out of the normal timing system to use game time, shows that we are willing to deal with its inconsistancies with real time.

MrGrunz

2009-07-05 01:42:04 pm

Merry Chrismas =)

ringrush, everbody is against this trick, because it makes game time an unwatchable category and is really really really really pointless

who wants to watch a run, that uses a trick to stop the timer? people would hate such a run, because they want to see somebody beating the game as quick as possible in the second cycle and not somebody stopping the timer and beating the game within one game hour, also he would have needed 70 game hours without it

UchihaSasuke

2009-07-05 02:13:38 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

ooooooo a new glitch that has caused a clusterfuck.

i say ban it. the point of the game time run is to beat the game fast going by the game's timer. the timer itself works well. stopping the timer would defeat the purpose of the category entirely. it would be like using a SC in a non-sc category run.

things like this is when sometimes i wish games weren't so broken. they cross the line between enjoyable and annoying.

SoulCalibrII

Edit history:

SoulCalibrII: 2009-07-05 10:52:08 pm

2009-07-05 10:45:50 pm

Here's V3 of my real time route.
RealTimeRoute
It seems solid. The rupee count only leaves us with 10 extra rupees at the end of the run. I'm fairly satisfied with the rupee route, but there might be a faster way. The TAS route would be the same as this one, minus 1 trip to the bomb shop because of megahover, thus removing 1 trip to the Zora game. Leave your thoughts on how to improve this.

Jiano

Edit history:

Jiano: 2009-07-06 12:20:24 am

2009-07-05 11:53:49 pm

I thought we agreed bow before hookshot was better. If you do bow first you won't need to play SoDT. Your bomb pick ups aren't included in the route either. Yeah, you go from Woodfall straight to Snowhead, and there's no bomb drops in between. Same with Snowhead > Ikana. Basically could you include the explosive counts so it's easier to follow and I can do a test run of the route to see how it works?

Only 2 rupees during first cycle? Seems like a waste since you have a lot of extra time and entering NCT from termina field skips the NCT cut scene.

Have you actually looked at the TAS route? That's what I used for the basis of my any% route.

SoulCalibrII

2009-07-06 12:43:20 am

The timing of whether Woodfall or Hookshot is faster is so close that I don't think it makes too much of a difference. The cutscenes only make a 20sec offset between the routes, and hookshot nearly makes up for it. I would rather have hookshot for Woodfall just to make the segment easier as well. Killing Odolwa w/ Kokiri Sword fast makes the segment hard as is! Plus, by having hookshot, I save 3-4 bombchus for the Boss key skip so I won't have to use any bombs; I hook onto the torch in the 2nd room instead of hovering. I have to buy more chus after the segment anyway.

In my route at the top of the page it says "All bomb will be obtained via pots or grass near owl statues." Put another way, every time we are about to save at an owl statue, or after we load a game, we grab the bombs at those pots or grass. Those save areas are 1.ZoraCape, 2.Ikana Canyon, 3.StoneTower. During my segs 5&6, that's + 10bombs. Segs 11&12&13 +15.

What do you mean I won't have to play SoDT? Either way, if I don't play the SoDT at all, then by the time I beat all the dungeons, I would have to either hover into ClockTower (with slow bombs since I would have used all bombchus at Stone Tower) or play the SoDT later on in the run regardless. How many explosives does it take to enter Clocktower early?

Entering NCT via Termina field is nice to know, and it might save a few seconds, but we don't need more than 2R b/c 99+2+99=200, giving us the big wallet. Collecting anymore than that would be TAS only because you would need to collect at least 50-60 in the field (like SwordlessLink's WIP) to eliminate playing the Zora game another time. That sort of luck will not happen.

The timing of whether Woodfall or Hookshot is faster is so close that I don't think it makes too much of a difference. The cutscenes only make a 20sec offset between the routes, and hookshot nearly makes up for it. I would rather have hookshot for Woodfall just to make the segment easier as well. Killing Odolwa w/ Kokiri Sword fast makes the segment hard as is! Plus, by having hookshot, I save 3-4 bombchus for the Boss key skip so I won't have to use any bombs; I hook onto the torch in the 2nd room instead of hovering. I have to buy more chus after the segment anyway.

In my route at the top of the page it says "All bomb will be obtained via pots or grass near owl statues." Put another way, every time we are about to save at an owl statue, or after we load a game, we grab the bombs at those pots or grass. Those save areas are 1.ZoraCape, 2.Ikana Canyon, 3.StoneTower.  During my segs 5&6, that's + 10bombs. Segs 11&12&13 +15.

What do you mean I won't have to play SoDT? Either way, if I don't play the SoDT at all, then by the time I beat all the dungeons, I would have to either hover into ClockTower (with slow bombs since I would have used all bombchus at Stone Tower) or play the SoDT later on in the run regardless. How many explosives does it take to enter Clocktower early?

Entering NCT via Termina field is nice to know, and it might save a few seconds, but we don't need more than 2R b/c 99+2+99=200, giving us the big wallet. Collecting anymore than that would be TAS only because you would need to collect at least 50-60 in the field (like SwordlessLink's WIP) to eliminate playing the Zora game another time. That sort of luck will not happen.

MrGrunz

2009-07-06 06:12:45 am

Merry Chrismas =)

first off, collecting something like 120 rupees in the first cycle is the best way.

you go to the third cycle normally, then you go to ECT and get the fairy and the 100R chest. now you bring the rupees to the bank, escape clock town, collect a few rupees (20 is easily possible) enter to NCT, get magic and finally bring the last rupees to the bank.

it is quicker to get the hookshot after the bow, believe me, soulcal. woodfall temple is an easy segment and I can't see, how hookshot makes it so much easier. the first room is easy without hookshot. only the second room gets a bit easier with it, but still pretty easy without it.
odolwa with kokiri sword - where's the problem? you play GCN, what makes quick spins even easier.

getting all the bombs from pots and plants? are you serious?
you know, that you'll need 20 bombs for stone tower alone, then the superslides and all the other stuff.
there's no way, you could get them only from bomb drops.

Jiano

Edit history:

Jiano: 2009-07-06 12:59:41 pm

2009-07-06 11:39:36 am

The bombs near Ikana owl are a million years away, and you'll need to get at least 3 drops for Stone Tower. You don't go to any of the listed owls before Snowhead, either.

Adding 1 minute to the Pirate's Fortress segment is way harder than having no hookshot for Woodfall.

Whats faster, SoDT or 4 bomb hovers and 1 chu hover to get into the Clock Tower?

MrGrunz

2009-07-06 03:19:02 pm

Merry Chrismas =)

th hovers

and you can easily to clock tower early with 4 hovers, btw

Jiano

2009-07-06 05:34:57 pm

When does timing start and end for segments? When the text shows up? When you load the save? When you gain control of Link?

Slowking

2009-07-06 09:23:32 pm

Quote from UchihaSasuke:

ooooooo a new glitch that has caused a clusterfuck.

It's actually really old. Just seems like a lot of people didn't know about it, which is no surprise since it sucks. Cheesy

SoulCalibrII

Edit history:

SoulCalibrII: 2009-07-07 03:11:06 pm

2009-07-07 03:04:25 pm

Here is V4 of my route. If I made stupid forgetful mistakes, then tell me. I created this route while playing on emulator, and it works.
Here it is Smiley

Changes from last time:
1.) Woodfall before Hookshot
2.) Collected more rupees from Termina field in segment 2.
3.) Included bomb/chu count so people can't say I don't have enough explosives. If I can somehow optimize explosives, maybe I can climb Stone Tower and beat STT with 40 explosives so we don't have to fly back to Clocktown. Should I learn backflip megahover or is that TAS only? I can only do the sidehop megahover.
4.) I don't have deku sticks or nuts for this route. I had issues on where to collect them. Should we just not collect any? and beat Garo Master and Gomess the ol' fashioned way? (9sticks and 4nuts required for those battles)

Quote from Jiano:

When does timing start and end for segments? When the text shows up? When you load the save? When you gain control of Link?

I believe timing starts when you are able to move Link. Timing stops right when the first text appears before you save at an owl statue.

And speaking of timing, on the GCN version we are forced to watch that 25 second cutscene when entering Clocktown for the first time because the game doesn't save. Will this time be neglected when we calculate the final game time, or are we doomed to include that 25 seconds?

Here is V4 of my route. If I made stupid forgetful mistakes, then tell me. I created this route while playing on emulator, and it works.  
[url=http://www.2shared.com/file/6599931/3b16ee8f/MMRealTimeRoute.html]Here it is[/url] :)

Changes from last time: 
1.) Woodfall before Hookshot
2.) Collected more rupees from Termina field in segment 2.
3.) Included bomb/chu count so people can't say I don't have enough explosives. If I can somehow optimize explosives, maybe I can climb Stone Tower and beat STT with 40 explosives so we don't have to fly back to Clocktown. Should I learn backflip megahover or is that TAS only? I can only do the sidehop megahover. 
4.) I don't have deku sticks or nuts for this route. I had issues on where to collect them. Should we just not collect any? and beat Garo Master and Gomess the ol' fashioned way? (9sticks and 4nuts required for those battles)

[quote="Jiano"]
When does timing start and end for segments? When the text shows up? When you load the save? When you gain control of Link?
[/quote] I believe timing starts when you are able to move Link. Timing stops right when the first text appears before you save at an owl statue.

And speaking of timing, on the GCN version we are forced to watch that 25 second cutscene when entering Clocktown for the first time because the game doesn't save. Will this time be neglected when we calculate the final game time, or are we doomed to include that 25 seconds?