lost vikings

2009-08-29 02:02:32 am

Yes, I studied your first couple levels and the TAS of the Sega version. I'm pretty sure the camera is faster in the SNES version.

I do that little jump trick in the beginning of GR8T I believe, but I still need to re-do it with the vikings together for the long, horizontal top of the level.

ZenicReverie

2009-08-29 09:51:45 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from dcarulli:

Yes, I studied your first couple levels and the TAS of the Sega version. I'm pretty sure the camera is faster in the SNES version.

I do that little jump trick in the beginning of GR8T I believe, but I still need to re-do it with the vikings together for the long, horizontal top of the level.

yay! would love to see a run of this on sda. password for each level = IL table, as I believe items don't carry over from level to level... correct me if I'm wrong. SS would be pretty nice to see too, but might be a bit too much. I think the only difference between SNES and Genesis/MD besides the music is a couple extra levels.

if I ever pick this game up again, I'll probably attempt a few of the levels, but I can't be of much help at the moment. good luck

dcarulli

Edit history:

dcarulli: 2009-08-29 05:33:02 pm

2009-08-29 01:36:16 pm

Ok I re-did levels 2 and 3 and improved them a little bit.

I started on level 5, and found a neat little glitch that gives Eric 2 smartbombs instead of one. You just have to move the screen at just the right time. I'll try to use it to my advantage.

Glitch

edit: Level 5 is up

Aitamen

2009-08-29 09:45:14 pm

Bwahahaha... there WILL be domination!

I'm wondering how close a human run can get to the TAS. I really want to see a 2/3 player run of this game go up next to the solo-run, regardless of whether it's IL or SS.

I'm not exactly sure how it all works, but I know the TAS is 3char, and it looks ridiculous... I like it ^_^

if I had a DVD recorder and two friends, I'd totally do it... sadly, I have no recorder, and only have one friend + girlfriend >_>

ZenicReverie

2009-08-29 09:54:03 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from dcarulli:

Ok I re-did levels 2 and 3 and improved them a little bit.

I started on level 5, and found a neat little glitch that gives Eric 2 smartbombs instead of one. You just have to move the screen at just the right time. I'll try to use it to my advantage.

Glitch

edit: Level 5 is up

That's a neat glitch, I wonder how many other places it'd be useful at. Did you need to move Olaf for it to work? Have you tested it anywhere else?

Quote from Aitamen:

I'm wondering how close a human run can get to the TAS. I really want to see a 2/3 player run of this game go up next to the solo-run, regardless of whether it's IL or SS.

I'm not exactly sure how it all works, but I know the TAS is 3char, and it looks ridiculous... I like it ^_^

if I had a DVD recorder and two friends, I'd totally do it... sadly, I have no recorder, and only have one friend + girlfriend >_>

How is the screen split for three characters?

[quote="dcarulli"]
Ok I re-did levels 2 and 3 and improved them a little bit.

I started on level 5, and found a neat little glitch that gives Eric 2 smartbombs instead of one.  You just have to move the screen at just the right time.  I'll try to use it to my advantage.

[url=http://www.davecarulli.com/LV/glitch01.mov]Glitch[/url]

edit: [url=http://www.davecarulli.com/LV/05_LLM0.mov]Level 5 is up[/url]
[/quote]
That's a neat glitch, I wonder how many other places it'd be useful at. Did you need to move Olaf for it to work? Have you tested it anywhere else?

[quote="Aitamen"]
I'm wondering how close a human run can get to the TAS.  I really want to see a 2/3 player run of this game go up next to the solo-run, regardless of whether it's IL or SS.

I'm not exactly sure how it all works, but I know the TAS is 3char, and it looks ridiculous... I like it ^_^

if I had a DVD recorder and two friends, I'd totally do it... sadly, I have no recorder, and only have one friend + girlfriend >_>
[/quote]
How is the screen split for three characters?

dcarulli

2009-08-29 10:30:14 pm

Quote from ZenicReverie:

That's a neat glitch, I wonder how many other places it'd be useful at. Did you need to move Olaf for it to work? Have you tested it anywhere else?

How is the screen split for three characters?

You don't need to move Olaf, just switch to another character so the item is picked up offscreen. It works elsewhere, but I haven't found any other place where I could use it to my advantage yet.

And, there's no screen split in this game at all.

Zealie

Edit history:

Zealie: 2009-08-30 04:54:47 am

2009-08-30 03:54:40 am

Quote from ZenicReverie:

yay! would love to see a run of this on sda. password for each level = IL table

If you did all levels wouldn't password for each level also count as a segmented run as well?
I've looked at it and using the password is like saving at the end of the level and then reloading it again.
And no nothing carries over.

I doubt if there will ever be a single segment of this game, or it must be a rather crappy one in comparison cause this game is hard to speed run, at least imo.

@ dcarulli nice find on the glitch.

[edit] 1 more thing I might add on level 6. It's been too long ago so I can't recall whats faster, but if you go up the ladder with erik (jump climbing it) and on the top jump to the platform on the other side (with the big meat thing), there use eriks move to destroy the wall and then walk that way all the way back picking everything up might also work.
Just a little hint of a possibility although jumping down is probably faster to the blue key sounds faster. Just thought i'd mention it maybe it can be of use.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]

yay! would love to see a run of this on sda.  password for each level = IL table
[/quote]

If you did all levels wouldn't password for each level also count as a segmented run as well?
I've looked at it and using the password is like saving at the end of the level and then reloading it again. 
And no nothing carries over.

I doubt if there will ever be a single segment of this game, or it must be a rather crappy one in comparison cause this game is hard to speed run, at least imo.

@ dcarulli nice find on the glitch.

[edit]  1 more thing I might add on level 6. It's been too long ago so I can't recall whats faster, but if you go up the ladder with erik (jump climbing it) and on the top jump to the platform on the other side (with the big meat thing), there use eriks move to destroy the wall and then walk that way all the way back picking everything up might also work. 
Just a little hint of a possibility although jumping down is probably faster to the blue key sounds faster. Just thought i'd mention it maybe it can be of use.

ZenicReverie

2009-08-30 08:13:14 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

I believe if nothing carries over between levels and each level is accessible individually, then we get an IL table since it's supposed to encourage more competition as anyone could come along and improve one level without having to redo them all. If there's no difference between IL and segmented, then I think IL table wins out. I'm thinking StarCraft, which is just one IL table and not a segmented run and I'm fairly sure there are others.

dcarulli

2009-08-30 12:48:02 pm

Quote from ZaibirQuild:

@ dcarulli nice find on the glitch.

[edit] 1 more thing I might add on level 6. It's been too long ago so I can't recall whats faster, but if you go up the ladder with erik (jump climbing it) and on the top jump to the platform on the other side (with the big meat thing), there use eriks move to destroy the wall and then walk that way all the way back picking everything up might also work.
Just a little hint of a possibility although jumping down is probably faster to the blue key sounds faster. Just thought i'd mention it maybe it can be of use.

Thank you so much for telling me about that destructible wall! I already had a draft run of the level completed, but drastically modified my route upon learning about it. The result? Nearly 22 seconds faster!

Level 6 (old)
Level 6 (new)

I was pretty psyched I could get Baleog across the pit obviously, which really broke this level.

I have a feeling those rolling, blue-haired dudes are going to get REALLY annoying.

[quote="ZaibirQuild"]
@ dcarulli nice find on the glitch.

[edit]  1 more thing I might add on level 6. It's been too long ago so I can't recall whats faster, but if you go up the ladder with erik (jump climbing it) and on the top jump to the platform on the other side (with the big meat thing), there use eriks move to destroy the wall and then walk that way all the way back picking everything up might also work. 
Just a little hint of a possibility although jumping down is probably faster to the blue key sounds faster. Just thought i'd mention it maybe it can be of use.
[/quote]

Thank you so much for telling me about that destructible wall!  I already had a draft run of the level completed, but drastically modified my route upon learning about it.  The result?  Nearly 22 seconds faster!

[url=http://www.davecarulli.com/LV/06_FL0T_slow.mov]Level 6 (old)[/url]
[url=http://www.davecarulli.com/LV/06_FL0T.mov]Level 6 (new)[/url]

[spoiler]I was pretty psyched I could get Baleog across the pit obviously, which really broke this level.[/spoiler]
I have a feeling those rolling, blue-haired dudes are going to get REALLY annoying.

Aitamen

2009-08-31 10:08:05 am

Bwahahaha... there WILL be domination!

Multiplayer SS would be absolutely nutty... I'd do it, if I had a recorder and two people as crazy as I am

Zealie

2009-08-31 03:00:54 pm

1 more thing I might to add is that jumping while on the end of the ladder with erik is probably faster then just going up normally on the last part.
I hope you get what I mean.

The video's like nice. And also good thinking on that level 6 strategy.

Hamachiro

2013-01-26 10:52:29 am

1st of all sorry for the bump

also
Is anyone still running this game ?
I was looking forward Running/watching this game

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-03-04 06:11:42 am

2014-03-04 03:58:44 am

INTJ

Bumping this thread, since me and Johannhowitzer are currently working on this game for 1 player 2 controllers (SNES version). If anyone wants to join, you are welcome ^^

Current information:

Johannhowitzers pb, 1p2c (SNES version). Didn't know about the item duplication and offscreen fans yet. Further we implement more and more Olaf + Baleog flights like the TAS does
http://www.twitch.tv/johannhowitzer/c/3754884

ChanseyNES' speedrun on Youtube, it includes the item duplication and offscreen fans tricks (1p, DOS version):

Lost Vikings TAS, includes a lot of tricks, but also misses some, including shortcuts (3p, Genesis version)

johannhowitzer

2014-03-04 09:30:28 pm

Viking it up

As far as I know, I'm the first to complete this run with 2 controllers. I've been working on it for about five months. Here's a wealth of information I've gathered. I may go into my IL strats later, but right now I'm in a frenzy of revamping most levels - as Yagamoth mentioned, Chansey's 1-player speedrun has introduced me to a few new techniques.

- Many things aren't checked by the game engine when the object in question is offscreen. Enemies are the most obvious example, but also electrical fields, wind from fans (WRLR and FNTM), items (thus the duplication glitch, which allows skipping keys on TFFF and 4RN4), springs, the skewers in the factory... there's probably more, but you get the idea.

- Teleports happen before the camera finishes panning, if the teleporting character is not selected. Thus it can often be faster to deselect characters during a teleport, or flipping between two vikings as they both teleport.

- Olaf can often carry Baleog as he glides. This results in some surprising sequence breaks.

- Yagamoth found that Erik's falling speed is slightly slower when the B button is held.

- Many enemies can just be skipped. Egyptian guards can be walked under while they jump, snails and scorpions can be walked through, cavemen can often be pinned by Olaf's shield or avoided with ladders... actually I think there's only two cavemen in the game that have to be dueled normally by Baleog - both in CVRN, dueled together. Flaming arrows are HOT.

- Falling vikings move faster. Especially if they will take fall damage. It's also really amusing.

- When nearing the end of inflation, a viking will start flashing between inflated and deflated. When this starts, B/Y inputs to deflate early can be eaten. You have been warned.

- Erik has a short acceleration period before he reaches his full speed. When moving Erik with a slow viking, the two can be kept moving together by tapping left and right. This can be useful for standing between deadly obstacles, like the pounders in the factory.

- The L+R can be used together to give camera focus to the other player; however, usually it is less confusion-inducing to just use 1p and 2p switches in specific ways to keep the viking that needs camera focus on the 1p controller.

- In MSTR, Tomator's electrical shield will regenerate when his attack pattern starts. I've seen it regenerate four times in a row, though - be careful on that second bash at the final fight, it can zap Erik.

- Baleog and Olaf can, as has been described here, cross 2-block gaps. And it is 100% consistent, but pixel-perfect. It's more difficult on CRTs than on emulator, thanks to pixels being fuzzy.

- Camera panning wastes time. There are two ways to mitigate this:

1) plan your switches to happen when the vikings are as near to each other as possible. For example, on LLM0, you would want to get to the water with Erik, and this will make the camera pan up just a little to the other vikings.

2) Switch staggering, AKA the mind-breaker. The camera only pans when the player with camera focus switches vikings, and input is frozen during the pan. HOWEVER, in 2-player mode, the player without camera focus can switch with no delay, assuming all three vikings are visible! This means you can reduce the amount of pan-switching necessary by keeping all three vikings together, and alternating between a pan-switch and a non-pan-switch. If you're confused yet, here's a video that should illustrate. Note: you still lose time for each camera pan, but it takes roughly half as much panning this way.

http://www.twitch.tv/johannhowitzer/c/3559921

I'll be running this at SGDQ this year. My time right now is 1:14:55, but as Yagamoth said, I didn't know about some of these tricks when I got that time. I expect to break the hour soon. Deathless is definitely on the horizon, too.

As far as I know, I'm the first to complete this run with 2 controllers.  I've been working on it for about five months.  Here's a wealth of information I've gathered.  I may go into my IL strats later, but right now I'm in a frenzy of revamping most levels - as Yagamoth mentioned, Chansey's 1-player speedrun has introduced me to a few new techniques.

- Many things aren't checked by the game engine when the object in question is offscreen.  Enemies are the most obvious example, but also electrical fields, wind from fans (WRLR and FNTM), items (thus the duplication glitch, which allows skipping keys on TFFF and 4RN4), springs, the skewers in the factory... there's probably more, but you get the idea.

- Teleports happen before the camera finishes panning, if the teleporting character is not selected.  Thus it can often be faster to deselect characters during a teleport, or flipping between two vikings as they both teleport.

- Olaf can often carry Baleog as he glides.  This results in some surprising sequence breaks.

- Yagamoth found that Erik's falling speed is slightly slower when the B button is held.

- Many enemies can just be skipped.  Egyptian guards can be walked under while they jump, snails and scorpions can be walked through, cavemen can often be pinned by Olaf's shield or avoided with ladders... actually I think there's only two cavemen in the game that have to be dueled normally by Baleog - both in CVRN, dueled together.  Flaming arrows are HOT.

- Falling vikings move faster.  Especially if they will take fall damage.  It's also really amusing.

- When nearing the end of inflation, a viking will start flashing between inflated and deflated.  When this starts, B/Y inputs to deflate early can be eaten.  You have been warned.

- Erik has a short acceleration period before he reaches his full speed.  When moving Erik with a slow viking, the two can be kept moving together by tapping left and right.  This can be useful for standing between deadly obstacles, like the pounders in the factory.

- The L+R can be used together to give camera focus to the other player; however, usually it is less confusion-inducing to just use 1p and 2p switches in specific ways to keep the viking that needs camera focus on the 1p controller.

- In MSTR, Tomator's electrical shield will regenerate when his attack pattern starts.  I've seen it regenerate four times in a row, though - be careful on that second bash at the final fight, it can zap Erik.

- Baleog and Olaf can, as has been described here, cross 2-block gaps.  And it is 100% consistent, but pixel-perfect.  It's more difficult on CRTs than on emulator, thanks to pixels being fuzzy.

- Camera panning wastes time.  There are two ways to mitigate this:

1) plan your switches to happen when the vikings are as near to each other as possible.  For example, on LLM0, you would want to get to the water with Erik, and this will make the camera pan up just a little to the other vikings.

2) Switch staggering, AKA the mind-breaker.  The camera only pans when the player with camera focus switches vikings, and input is frozen during the pan.  HOWEVER, in 2-player mode, the player without camera focus can switch with no delay, assuming all three vikings are visible!  This means you can reduce the amount of pan-switching necessary by keeping all three vikings together, and alternating between a pan-switch and a non-pan-switch.  If you're confused yet, here's a video that should illustrate.  Note: you still lose time for each camera pan, but it takes roughly half as much panning this way.

http://www.twitch.tv/johannhowitzer/c/3559921

I'll be running this at SGDQ this year.  My time right now is 1:14:55, but as Yagamoth said, I didn't know about some of these tricks when I got that time.  I expect to break the hour soon.  Deathless is definitely on the horizon, too.

Yagamoth

Edit history:

Yagamoth: 2014-03-05 05:21:50 am

2014-03-05 04:25:29 am

INTJ

Definitely excited to get more into this. Are you planning on doing a run anytime soon? I'd like to learn your current strategies for all levels and then build up on that, since I do now have the basic knowledge Smiley

Edit: Some comments on your pb run. Everything after the CVRN is theory and not necessarily useful

PRWS: Prowess
- You can skip shooting down the stones with Baleog simply crossing the gap with the help of Olaf and Olaf floating afterwards (the TAS does this). It's easy to do, but I'm not sure how much time it saves and if it's worth the risk of messing up

VLCN: Volcano
- At the beginning, simply move Olaf and Baleog up the ladder and let Erik jump over the caveman for the key

QCKS: Quacks?..
- You can cross the sandgaps without hitting the coconuts by moving a bit back and then forward with Baleog (The TAS does this, no idea how difficult it is)
- Inside the pyramid, you could go all the way with Erik and then simply move Olaf and Baleog through without killing anything

PHR0: Pharaoh
- You can probably avoid killiing the two enemies on the 2nd floor

JLLY: Jelly
- I don't know how difficult it is, but the TAS runs straight through the big stompers you normally want to deactivate. I'd say it's only worth risking for the 2nd one, if at all

JNKR: Junkyard?..
- I think the elevator with Baleog can be optimized, I'll look into it

CBLT: Cobalt
- You only need two bombs, so getting one from the top without taking damage shouldn't be too difficult without killing the enemy
- Give a bomb to Olaf before he goes onto the elevator, he can drop down the bomb into the machine, the 1 damage on Baleog shouldn't matter (The TAS does this, not sure how difficult it is)

H0PP: Hop
- Not sure about backtracking there as Erik back up the elevator. I'd say it's likely to be faster to make the loop and come back to operate the machine

V8TR: V8 Motor?
- You can probably go up the springs with Baleog alone, letting olaf go directly serve as platform (or simply use Erik to jump the enemy)

40 Minutes in, and now I have to go back to work ^^

Definitely excited to get more into this. Are you planning on doing a run anytime soon? I'd like to learn your current strategies for all levels and then build up on that, since I do now have the basic knowledge :)

Edit: Some comments on your pb run. Everything after the CVRN is theory and not necessarily useful

PRWS: Prowess
- You can skip shooting down the stones with Baleog simply crossing the gap with the help of Olaf and Olaf floating afterwards (the TAS does this). It's easy to do, but I'm not sure how much time it saves and if it's worth the risk of messing up

VLCN: Volcano
- At the beginning, simply move Olaf and Baleog up the ladder and let Erik jump over the caveman for the key

QCKS: Quacks?..
- You can cross the sandgaps without hitting the coconuts by moving a bit back and then forward with Baleog (The TAS does this, no idea how difficult it is)
- Inside the pyramid, you could go all the way with Erik and then simply move Olaf and Baleog through without killing anything

PHR0: Pharaoh
- You can probably avoid killiing the two enemies on the 2nd floor

JLLY: Jelly
- I don't know how difficult it is, but the TAS runs straight through the big stompers you normally want to deactivate. I'd say it's only worth risking for the 2nd one, if at all

JNKR: Junkyard?..
- I think the elevator with Baleog can be optimized, I'll look into it

CBLT: Cobalt
- You only need two bombs, so getting one from the top without taking damage shouldn't be too difficult without killing the enemy
- Give a bomb to Olaf before he goes onto the elevator, he can drop down the bomb into the machine, the 1 damage on Baleog shouldn't matter (The TAS does this, not sure how difficult it is)

H0PP: Hop
- Not sure about backtracking there as Erik back up the elevator. I'd say it's likely to be faster to make the loop and come back to operate the machine

V8TR: V8 Motor?
- You can probably go up the springs with Baleog alone, letting olaf go directly serve as platform (or simply use Erik to jump the enemy)

40 Minutes in, and now I have to go back to work ^^

johannhowitzer

2014-03-05 07:19:03 am

Viking it up

QCKS is "Quicksand," CBLT is "Conveyor Belt," and V8TR is "Elevator," I think. The password-names are subjective, though, I don't think Interplay ever officially said what they mean. Smiley

As for the rest, yep. All of that is in the notes I took on the TAS and Chansey's run. For CBLT, you don't need to bomb the second machine - you can just ignore the electrical field on the elevator. However, I think this is slower than the alternative with 2-player mode... I'll have to compare.

I've tried crossing the sand with Baleog in QCKS - there may be a pixel perfect setup like with the two-block gaps, but as one coconut is very quick to knock down, it'll usually be faster to do it as intended anyway.

johannhowitzer

2014-05-04 05:38:43 am

Viking it up

A lot has been happening on the Viking front. I'll try to outline it here so if there's anyone who wants to get into this game, they can be up on current knowledge more effectively. Miketheviewer has been very active breaking the game repeatedly, and I've done my share applying it to human speedruns, finding setups, etc. Yagamoth has also helped some, though he has other projects on his back right now.

First, there's a new core movement technique called Erik-launching. When you start a headbash with Erik using Y, then immediately switch to another Viking (1-player) or switch the camera to the other controller (2-player, done with L+R), Erik will continue moving through the remainder of his headbash cycle, meaning he moves a decent distance without needing to be controlled. You can get extra free distance with him like this.

Generally, collisions are not detected for objects offscreen. There are exceptions, even within the same object type (some electrical fields will kill offscreen, some won't), but even walls aren't invincible. To abuse this, you need some form of automated movement - a fall, a spring, Erik's launch, inflation, an elevator, etc. This creates the following exploits:

- Electrical fields can often be passed through.
- Fans will not blow you into spikes, unless you were already in the wind.
- Due to his speed and the launching described above, Erik can pass through block doors, such as the ones seen in CMB0 and TRPD.
- Enemies will almost never hurt someone while they're offscreen.
- Items can be duplicated, provided you switch away from the relevant Viking at the right time. Room for error varies, but is never more than a half-block wide. The current human route only duplicates keys.

Pause-buffering can help with many of the tricks in this game. Both Start and Select work for this, but I recommend Select because Start can end the level if you press Left in your buffer, and Select doesn't block part of the screen. The D-pad, Y, and shoulder buttons can all be buffered, and you can buffer as many inputs as you like. In 2-player, you can use both Select buttons to rapidly re-buffer to advance a few frames. If you buffer left/right plus a shoulder button, the Viking who paused the game will move exactly one pixel.

Yagamoth found that Erik's fall speed is decreased while holding the B button. This is of course familiar to avid players in antigravity fields, but also holds true outside them, and can slightly lengthen a jump.

When you attempt to open a keyhole with a key, your collision disappears for a moment, preventing fall damage, and allowing you to fall through key-activated floors, assuming you can set up a fall that would collide with the floor - with a jump, spring, or higher ledge. The key doesn't have to match the keyhole - in fact it's preferable that it doesn't.

Miketheviewer calculated the load time difference between SNES and DOS versions, and it totals 2 minutes, 36 seconds (or 2:38, Mike can correct me, I can never remember which). For deciding the world record, I recommend making the conversion - though my current record is ahead of Chansey, the next fastest runner, with or without the conversion. The only other difference I have seen so far is that the screen is four blocks wider on DOS, forcing a few minor route changes due to onscreening of some things that would be offscreen on SNES. That difference doesn't seem to cause a significant advantage or disadvantage based on version - in fact, sometimes it helps, and sometimes it hurts, and it's negligible either way.

Current record is 1:02:58 by me, 2-player. I currently need to incorporate some minor route changes, learn to do the new Erik-launch practically everywhere, and move closer to deathless. After that, the "switch-staggering" I mentioned in an earlier post will be the only remaining hurdle... unless Mike keeps finding new things. Here's my run video.

A lot has been happening on the Viking front.  I'll try to outline it here so if there's anyone who wants to get into this game, they can be up on current knowledge more effectively.  Miketheviewer has been very active breaking the game repeatedly, and I've done my share applying it to human speedruns, finding setups, etc.  Yagamoth has also helped some, though he has other projects on his back right now.

First, there's a new core movement technique called Erik-launching.  When you start a headbash with Erik using Y, then immediately switch to another Viking (1-player) or switch the camera to the other controller (2-player, done with L+R), Erik will continue moving through the remainder of his headbash cycle, meaning he moves a decent distance without needing to be controlled.  You can get extra free distance with him like this.

Generally, collisions are not detected for objects offscreen.  There are exceptions, even within the same object type (some electrical fields will kill offscreen, some won't), but even walls aren't invincible.  To abuse this, you need some form of automated movement - a fall, a spring, Erik's launch, inflation, an elevator, etc.  This creates the following exploits:

- Electrical fields can often be passed through.
- Fans will not blow you into spikes, unless you were already in the wind.
- Due to his speed and the launching described above, Erik can pass through block doors, such as the ones seen in CMB0 and TRPD.
- Enemies will almost never hurt someone while they're offscreen.
- Items can be duplicated, provided you switch away from the relevant Viking at the right time.  Room for error varies, but is never more than a half-block wide.  The current human route only duplicates keys.

Pause-buffering can help with many of the tricks in this game.  Both Start and Select work for this, but I recommend Select because Start can end the level if you press Left in your buffer, and Select doesn't block part of the screen.  The D-pad, Y, and shoulder buttons can all be buffered, and you can buffer as many inputs as you like.  In 2-player, you can use both Select buttons to rapidly re-buffer to advance a few frames.  If you buffer left/right plus a shoulder button, the Viking who paused the game will move exactly one pixel.

Yagamoth found that Erik's fall speed is decreased while holding the B button.  This is of course familiar to avid players in antigravity fields, but also holds true outside them, and can slightly lengthen a jump.

When you attempt to open a keyhole with a key, your collision disappears for a moment, preventing fall damage, and allowing you to fall through key-activated floors, assuming you can set up a fall that would collide with the floor - with a jump, spring, or higher ledge.  The key doesn't have to match the keyhole - in fact it's preferable that it doesn't.

Miketheviewer calculated the load time difference between SNES and DOS versions, and it totals 2 minutes, 36 seconds (or 2:38, Mike can correct me, I can never remember which).  For deciding the world record, I recommend making the conversion - though my current record is ahead of Chansey, the next fastest runner, with or without the conversion.  The only other difference I have seen so far is that the screen is four blocks wider on DOS, forcing a few minor route changes due to onscreening of some things that would be offscreen on SNES.  That difference doesn't seem to cause a significant advantage or disadvantage based on version - in fact, sometimes it helps, and sometimes it hurts, and it's negligible either way.

Current record is 1:02:58 by me, 2-player.  I currently need to incorporate some minor route changes, learn to do the new Erik-launch practically everywhere, and move closer to deathless.  After that, the "switch-staggering" I mentioned in an earlier post will be the only remaining hurdle... unless Mike keeps finding new things.  Here's my run video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CePbj2bku44

johannhowitzer

2014-05-19 06:01:12 pm

Viking it up

I have made a full set of notes for this game, you can get them in PDF format here:

http://www.filedropper.com/lostvikingsnotes

Yagamoth

2014-06-30 05:30:49 pm

INTJ

After a long time I finally have something to contribute again. During the SGDQ run I saw the level CMB0 and thought, it may be possible to find a easy setup to not having to worry about messing around with the switches (walking over a 1 tile gap).

I did find one, but I found out a bit more than that too, which could be useful in various other places.
http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/c/4570175

For that what I did is simply:
- Touch the wall on the left
- Hold right
- Stop holding right at any point as long as you have reached max. walking speed
- Hold right again

That's it. Pretty simple. Now here's a bit more of a detailed analysis on the 1-tile-gap walks. Please keep in mind I did not read any memory addresses, it's purely heuristic

=====================================================

Testing setup: I tested 11 different setups to walk across the same 1-tile gap, each one exactly one pixel apart. Results:

1 - Fail
2 - Fail
3 - Fail
4 - Success
5 - Fail
6 - Fail
7 - Fail
8 - Fail
9 - Fail
10 - Success
11 - Fail

From this I determine, that there are 6 different pixel setups. As in, 1 == 7, 2 == 8, 3 == 9, 4 == 10, 5 == 11, 6 == 12, etc.

Now, from testing I figured out, that if you make 1 stop (from max. walking speed) and then move again, your pixel setup shifts. So, testing each of the 11 setups with 1 stop, I have the following results:

1 - Success
2 - Fail
3 - Fail
4 - Fail
5 - Fail
6 - Fail
7 - Success
8 - Fail
9 - Fail
10 - Fail
11 - Fail

With 2 stops:

1 - Fail
2 - Fail
3 - Fail
4 - Success
5 - Fail
6 - Fail
7 - Fail
8 - Fail
9 - Fail
10 - Success
11 - Fail

So, 2 stops are exactly the same as 0 stops. Put differently, we can reliably switch between two setups by using stops.

After a long time I finally have something to contribute again. During the SGDQ run I saw the level CMB0 and thought, it may be possible to find a easy setup to not having to worry about messing around with the switches (walking over a 1 tile gap).

I did find one, but I found out a bit more than that too, which could be useful in various other places.
http://www.twitch.tv/yagamoth/c/4570175

For that what I did is simply: 
- Touch the wall on the left
- Hold right
- Stop holding right at any point as long as you have reached max. walking speed
- Hold right again

That's it. Pretty simple. Now here's a bit more of a detailed analysis on the 1-tile-gap walks. Please keep in mind I did not read any memory addresses, it's purely heuristic

=====================================================

Testing setup: I tested 11 different setups to walk across the same 1-tile gap, each one exactly one pixel apart. Results:

1 - Fail
2 - Fail
3 - Fail
4 - Success
5 - Fail
6 - Fail
7 - Fail
8 - Fail
9 - Fail
10 - Success
11 - Fail

From this I determine, that there are 6 different pixel setups. As in, 1 == 7, 2 == 8, 3 == 9, 4 == 10, 5 == 11, 6 == 12, etc.

Now, from testing I figured out, that if you make 1 stop (from max. walking speed) and then move again, your pixel setup shifts. So, testing each of the 11 setups with 1 stop, I have the following results:

1 - Success
2 - Fail
3 - Fail
4 - Fail
5 - Fail
6 - Fail
7 - Success
8 - Fail
9 - Fail
10 - Fail
11 - Fail

With 2 stops:

1 - Fail
2 - Fail
3 - Fail
4 - Success
5 - Fail
6 - Fail
7 - Fail
8 - Fail
9 - Fail
10 - Success
11 - Fail

So, 2 stops are exactly the same as 0 stops. Put differently, we can reliably switch between two setups by using stops.

johannhowitzer

2014-07-01 03:27:23 pm

Viking it up

I already knew the magic pixels were on a repeating pattern, didn't know they were so close together as I never felt the need to test every pixel until I found two setups. What I'm gathering from your post is simply what I thought was true all along - that their hitbox sizes oscillate based on which animation frame they're on, and from there, you just need to be at full speed. Based on your research, they apparently have the larger hitbox every six pixels of movement.

A LUA script run in Bizhawk to display hitboxes would be more revealing, I think. And currently, finding that sixth "magic" pixel is probably going to be slower on average than simply doing the first two combinations. I had already tested pushing the left wall and knew that alone didn't work.

Here's some more relevant numbers, that will make finding more wall-push setups deductive rather than brute force:

- A block is 16 pixels wide
- Magic pixel is every 6
- We already know a wall push WILL work to autosetup the gap cross from seven blocks away (crossing the spring in TRDR)
- Every third block will provide a wall push +/- that seventh. So you can cross a gap by pushing the opposite direction into a wall 1, 4, 7, 10... blocks away from the gap.

- In TTRS, the gap cross is set up by wall pushing in the direction of the gap, 28 blocks away from a fall that clears a ceiling 4 blocks up.
- The closest you could do that wall push, then, is 1 block away against a 4-high ceiling. Unknown how lower/higher ladder walls into wall pushes would affect the magic pixels, however...
- Even numbers are required. Counting ZERO as a magic pixel, the numbers in brackets are where the magic pixel falls on the edge of a block and makes possible a wall push at the gap's height. Parentheses indicate the seam of blocks where magic pixels are not present:

[0] 6 12 (16) 18 24 30 (32) 36 42 [48]

And then repeating. Note that for the ones where there is no magic pixel, there WOULD be a magic pixel if you started 2 or 4 pixels early or late. 1, 3, and 5 are impossible setups, so if wall pushes from a fall into the side of a ceiling NOT at 4 blocks high would result in an oddly-placed magic pixel after landing, that height ceiling will never work.

All of this is probably academic, though, since there are so few places where the gap cross is actually beneficial, and we already have setups for (nearly?) all of them.

(By the way, your hitbox size seems to begin oscillating when you LAND, it doesn't matter in the air. So every time you bounce off that spring in CMB0, the frame you start pushing right will give you a different animation frame, and a different lineup on the magic pixels, so you have a one in six of hitting it, all other things being equal. Pause buffer would still take too long on average, too.)

I already knew the magic pixels were on a repeating pattern, didn't know they were so close together as I never felt the need to test every pixel until I found two setups.  What I'm gathering from your post is simply what I thought was true all along - that their hitbox sizes oscillate based on which animation frame they're on, and from there, you just need to be at full speed.  Based on your research, they apparently have the larger hitbox every six pixels of movement.

A LUA script run in Bizhawk to display hitboxes would be more revealing, I think.  And currently, finding that sixth "magic" pixel is probably going to be slower on average than simply doing the first two combinations.  I had already tested pushing the left wall and knew that alone didn't work.

Here's some more relevant numbers, that will make finding more wall-push setups deductive rather than brute force:

- A block is 16 pixels wide
- Magic pixel is every 6
- We already know a wall push WILL work to autosetup the gap cross from seven blocks away (crossing the spring in TRDR)
- Every third block will provide a wall push +/- that seventh.  So you can cross a gap by pushing the opposite direction into a wall 1, 4, 7, 10... blocks away from the gap.

- In TTRS, the gap cross is set up by wall pushing in the direction of the gap, 28 blocks away from a fall that clears a ceiling 4 blocks up.
- The closest you could do that wall push, then, is 1 block away against a 4-high ceiling.  Unknown how lower/higher ladder walls into wall pushes would affect the magic pixels, however...
- Even numbers are required.  Counting ZERO as a magic pixel, the numbers in brackets are where the magic pixel falls on the edge of a block and makes possible a wall push at the gap's height.  Parentheses indicate the seam of blocks where magic pixels are not present:

[0] 6 12 (16) 18 24 30 (32) 36 42 [48]

And then repeating.  Note that for the ones where there is no magic pixel, there WOULD be a magic pixel if you started 2 or 4 pixels early or late.  1, 3, and 5 are impossible setups, so if wall pushes from a fall into the side of a ceiling NOT at 4 blocks high would result in an oddly-placed magic pixel after landing, that height ceiling will never work.

All of this is probably academic, though, since there are so few places where the gap cross is actually beneficial, and we already have setups for (nearly?) all of them.

(By the way, your hitbox size seems to begin oscillating when you LAND, it doesn't matter in the air.  So every time you bounce off that spring in CMB0, the frame you start pushing right will give you a different animation frame, and a different lineup on the magic pixels, so you have a one in six of hitting it, all other things being equal.  Pause buffer would still take too long on average, too.)