La-Mulana

2011-05-05 03:08:51 pm

Yep yep yep!

I'm not positive that it was breaking the pot that did it, only that it happened once when I did break the pot. When I later went through on a new game up to that point, the flares were present.

It's probably something weird like the absent 200 coins.

TheMaxican

Edit history:

TheMaxican: 2011-05-17 03:33:48 am

TheMaxican: 2011-05-07 07:53:22 am

2011-05-07 07:51:49 am

Break through the final confusion

I can confirm what BlueGlass is saying: if you open up a pot then, even if you don't have the item that the pot would give you yet, it won't appear until the next game load. HOPEFULLY that's what happening, because, yeah, it would suck to have ANOTHER 200 Coin case. Which, by the way, I still haven't figured out... doh!

Anyway, yet another update. Finally found the time to go through Hell Temple like I wanted to, and once again I felt like being a good Samaritan. Again, not sure if it helps anyone here, but if you go to the La-Mulana Wiki you'll notice not only a complete Pot guide for Hell Temple, but also a complete Hell Temple page (it's so nice to see the screenshots map complete!). While I was at it, I went ahead and created an account and plugged SDA and this thread on my user page. Hopefully that will hold us over until the next time I'm not lazy and actually make that speedruns page we talked about. Smiley

Well, the run planning is going ok, but at the very least, I can tell you what the last few segments will be! Smiley

N: ... at the end of this segment, after the Ice Cavern mantra chant, do the Duracuets quest, Guidance Gate mantra read, Confusion Gate mantra chant AND get Body Armor. Also, at this point I'll only have 3 things left before 100% - 2 MSX Cartridges and Skimpy Swimsuit.
N+1: Hell Temple part 1, do rooms 1-8, then on room 9 jump through the invisible floor to get the dias on the lower-right, fall through the floor to Land of Hell 1, sleep in this land, and grail out + save
N+2: Hell Temple part 2, use the shortcut on room 1 to room 9, then do rooms 9-32, stopping to sleep on the other two Lands of Hell on the way. Once at room 32, get the Green block (I'll have gotten the Green medicine instead of the Yellow one). Grail out + save
N+3: Go get the Red medicine
N+4: Hell Temple part 3, make way to Room 32 again, this time doing PR3 on the way. In Room 32, get the Red block. Grail out + save
N+5: Go get the Yellow medicine
N+6: Hell Temple part 4, make way to Room 32 yet again. Get the Yellow block, go on to the Skimpy Swimsuit, grail out + save
N+7: Go to True Shrine of the Mother, get the last 2 MSX Cartridges, end Mother's Day, party

I'm actually losing a few seconds from segment N+1 to N+2 (it's slightly faster to get Land of Hell 1 when visiting Room 3, and then just keep going at Room 9 without segmenting), but it's a sanity save because (a) Segment N+2 will easily be the hardest segment in the run, and (b) it doesn't waste THAT much time because the layout of the two diases in Room 9 makes it so that you kinda have to take a roundabout route to get both of them anyway.
That said, if I find segment N+2 impossible, I'll probably split it into two (don't visit Land of Hell 2, then on Land of Hell 3, sleep, fall down to 2, sleep, then grail out), but that definitely would waste a lot more time. So we'll just have to wait and see!

Oh, by the way, I found out something hilarious - you can actually grail out anytime during the cutscene after you get the Skimpy Swimsuit! If I'm fast on my fingers, I'll be able to get the Swimsuit and then grail out before anyone actually sees the big surprise! (It's interesting - if you make your way back to the room, the treasure chest will be empty, but standing in front of it will cause the cutscene to start playing anyway!) So, needless to say, I'm totally planning on doing this. Smiley

Hope no one's disappointed by this, haha...

So that's it from me for now. Hopefully I'll be posting a route sometime in the next few weeks. Oh, and good luck on your run, Anon!

-----

EDIT: It's been a while! Well, I have the Macro plan done (just a basic list of the goal of each segment) - it looks like I'll tentatively be using 40+ segments. I'm finishing up the Micro plan, which is a step-by-step plan of every segment (which includes things like how many coins/weights I have to end up with at the end of each segment!). I'm about 1/4 done, and I'll posting the whole massive thing when I finally finish it, which should hopefully be soon enough.

Anyway, aside from that progress report, I am sad to also report that I've played a test run up until the point I've planned, and sure enough, still no 200 coins, even on a fresh download of the Japanese version of the game. So... yeah. I'm not sure what to do.

Seeing as though I haven't seen those 200 coins since the first playthrough (and to be honest, now I'm second-guessing myself as to whether or not I even got them on the first run!) I guess I have 2 options:
(a) Just run the game without those 200 Coins, which will undoubtedly be slower (separate category? I don't even know anymore...)
(b) Get to the bottom of the missing Coins, up to and including deciphering the save file (which is not easy BTW, as they seem to be encrypting it somehow...)

What do you guys think? Should I make a more general thread where I ask SDAers in general for advice? I just feel like I'm totally out of options here...

I can confirm what BlueGlass is saying: if you open up a pot then, even if you don't have the item that the pot would give you yet, it won't appear until the next game load. HOPEFULLY that's what happening, because, yeah, it would suck to have ANOTHER 200 Coin case. Which, by the way, I still haven't figured out... doh!

Anyway, yet another update. Finally found the time to go through Hell Temple like I wanted to, and once again I felt like being a good Samaritan. Again, not sure if it helps anyone here, but if you go to the La-Mulana Wiki you'll notice not only a complete Pot guide for Hell Temple, but also a complete Hell Temple page (it's so nice to see the screenshots map complete!). While I was at it, I went ahead and created an account and plugged SDA and this thread on my user page. Hopefully that will hold us over until the next time I'm not lazy and actually make that speedruns page we talked about. :)

Well, the run planning is going ok, but at the very least, I can tell you what the last few segments will be! :)
N: ... at the end of this segment, after the Ice Cavern mantra chant, do the Duracuets quest, Guidance Gate mantra read, Confusion Gate mantra chant AND get Body Armor. Also, at this point I'll only have 3 things left before 100% - 2 MSX Cartridges and Skimpy Swimsuit.
N+1: Hell Temple part 1, do rooms 1-8, then on room 9 jump through the invisible floor to get the dias on the lower-right, fall through the floor to Land of Hell 1, sleep in this land, and grail out + save
N+2: Hell Temple part 2, use the shortcut on room 1 to room 9, then do rooms 9-32, stopping to sleep on the other two Lands of Hell on the way. Once at room 32, get the Green block (I'll have gotten the Green medicine instead of the Yellow one). Grail out + save
N+3: Go get the Red medicine
N+4: Hell Temple part 3, make way to Room 32 again, this time doing PR3 on the way. In Room 32, get the Red block. Grail out + save
N+5: Go get the Yellow medicine
N+6: Hell Temple part 4, make way to Room 32 yet again. Get the Yellow block, go on to the Skimpy Swimsuit, grail out + save
N+7: Go to True Shrine of the Mother, get the last 2 MSX Cartridges, end Mother's Day, party

I'm actually losing a few seconds from segment N+1 to N+2 (it's slightly faster to get Land of Hell 1 when visiting Room 3, and then just keep going at Room 9 without segmenting), but it's a sanity save because (a) Segment N+2 will easily be the hardest segment in the run, and (b) it doesn't waste THAT much time because the layout of the two diases in Room 9 makes it so that you kinda have to take a roundabout route to get both of them anyway.
That said, if I find segment N+2 impossible, I'll probably split it into two (don't visit Land of Hell 2, then on Land of Hell 3, sleep, fall down to 2, sleep, then grail out), but that definitely would waste a lot more time. So we'll just have to wait and see!

Oh, by the way, I found out something hilarious - you can actually grail out anytime during the cutscene after you get the Skimpy Swimsuit! If I'm fast on my fingers, I'll be able to get the Swimsuit and then grail out before anyone actually sees the big surprise! (It's interesting - if you make your way back to the room, the treasure chest will be empty, but standing in front of it will cause the cutscene to start playing anyway!) So, needless to say, I'm totally planning on doing this. :) Hope no one's disappointed by this, haha...

So that's it from me for now. Hopefully I'll be posting a route sometime in the next few weeks. Oh, and good luck on your run, Anon!

-----

EDIT: It's been a while! Well, I have the Macro plan done (just a basic list of the goal of each segment) - it looks like I'll tentatively be using 40+ segments. I'm finishing up the Micro plan, which is a step-by-step plan of every segment (which includes things like how many coins/weights I have to end up with at the end of each segment!). I'm about 1/4 done, and I'll posting the whole massive thing when I finally finish it, which should hopefully be soon enough.

Anyway, aside from that progress report, I am sad to also report that I've played a test run up until the point I've planned, and sure enough, still no 200 coins, even on a fresh download of the Japanese version of the game. So... yeah. I'm not sure what to do.

Seeing as though I haven't seen those 200 coins since the first playthrough (and to be honest, now I'm second-guessing myself as to whether or not I even got them on the first run!) I guess I have 2 options:
(a) Just run the game without those 200 Coins, which will undoubtedly be slower (separate category? I don't even know anymore...)
(b) Get to the bottom of the missing Coins, up to and including deciphering the save file (which is not easy BTW, as they seem to be encrypting it somehow...)

What do you guys think? Should I make a more general thread where I ask SDAers in general for advice? I just feel like I'm totally out of options here...

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-17 06:04:54 am

2011-05-17 06:04:14 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Yes it has been a while. I was going to start back up with the run as soon as summer came around because basically right now in the morning is my only free time.

Glad to hear your run is shaping up but I still don't understand why you aren't getting the 200 coin pot. Maybe you could "borrow" another computer for a second, download the game and see if it is there. If it is still not there then it's either

A. If the operating systems are the same it could be that
B. Both the computers have something about them that makes it not spawn
C. There is some in game trigger that causes it not to work.

If I get some free time I will check the maps in the editor for triggers that are out of place.

If it is there:

It is your computer and I don't know what to do there.

TheMaxican

2011-05-23 01:29:39 am

Break through the final confusion

Alright, Anon, I followed your advice and found myself two computers. I followed that path I posted a while ago, and here's the results:

-Windows XP, English version, had already beaten the game once: NO 200 Coins.
-Windows 7, Japanese version, had never played the game so it was freshly downloaded: NO 200 Coins.

Yeah... nothing. So since I'm doing the absolute minimum to get there, now I'm pretty close to convinced that there's a hidden trigger somewhere.

BTW, can anyone reading this who happens to have some free time just indulge me and try out the path I posted before and let me know what happens? I've reproduced the path here:
1) Go to the Temple of the Sun and step on that switch to expose the dias that unlocks the area to the Boots, then grail warp out.
2) Go to the Twin Labyrinth and buy the Helmet.
3) Go to the Spring in the Sky and get the Conception Seal. On the way down, fall to Temple of the Sun, get the Boots, and read the warp tablet for the Chamber of Extinction.
4) Go to the Surface to get the Birth Seal.
5) Go to the Temple of the Sun, beat Ellmac, then go to the back and get the Axe.
6) Go to the Chamber of Extinction and, with your new Axe, get the Life Seal.
7) Go to the Surface with your new Life Seal and unlock the 3 jars.

It would be much appreciated. I've tried this path both SS and segmented, and nothing either way.

Anyway, I have no idea what the hidden trigger would be. Number of enemies killed? Number of times EXP bar hit the end? Breaking all the other jars on the Surface? Who knows!

For now I'll just continue with the planning (since now I'm a bit behind) assuming I'd get the 200 Coins. When I actually finish the planning, I'll spend a bit more time on this...

Alright, Anon, I followed your advice and found myself two computers. I followed that path I posted a while ago, and here's the results:

-Windows XP, English version, had already beaten the game once: NO 200 Coins.
-Windows 7, Japanese version, had never played the game so it was freshly downloaded: NO 200 Coins.

Yeah... nothing. So since I'm doing the absolute minimum to get there, now I'm pretty close to convinced that there's a hidden trigger somewhere.

BTW, can anyone reading this who happens to have some free time just indulge me and try out the path I posted before and let me know what happens? I've reproduced the path here:
1) Go to the Temple of the Sun and step on that switch to expose the dias that unlocks the area to the Boots, then grail warp out.
2) Go to the Twin Labyrinth and buy the Helmet.
3) Go to the Spring in the Sky and get the Conception Seal. On the way down, fall to Temple of the Sun, get the Boots, and read the warp tablet for the Chamber of Extinction.
4) Go to the Surface to get the Birth Seal.
5) Go to the Temple of the Sun, beat Ellmac, then go to the back and get the Axe.
6) Go to the Chamber of Extinction and, with your new Axe, get the Life Seal.
7) Go to the Surface with your new Life Seal and unlock the 3 jars.

It would be much appreciated. I've tried this path both SS and segmented, and nothing either way.

Anyway, I have no idea what the hidden trigger would be. Number of enemies killed? Number of times EXP bar hit the end? Breaking all the other jars on the Surface? Who knows!

For now I'll just continue with the planning (since now I'm a bit behind) assuming I'd get the 200 Coins. When I actually finish the planning, I'll spend a bit more time on this...

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-23 03:55:55 pm

2011-05-23 03:55:41 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Ok well apparently in the editor the 3 pots are function off two events, both need to be activated for each pot to work, I will need to look for it but apparently there is another event that has to happen for the 200 coin pot to work.

TheMaxican

Edit history:

TheMaxican: 2011-05-23 04:12:41 pm

TheMaxican: 2011-05-23 04:11:08 pm

2011-05-23 03:58:36 pm

Break through the final confusion

Holy crap that's awesome! Thanks Anon! Definitely let us know what you find.

It's funny, I actually downloaded the map editor on the same hunch but I had NO idea what anything meant. Smiley

EDIT: Maybe I can elaborate... so it looks like OP1=7 is a Coin jar, OP2 is the amount it gives. OP4 always seems to be -1 (which I assume means "unused"), and OP3 is... something. Some sort of large integer that's never the same for any two jars.

Anyway, our jars in question have additional "START flags", which I'm assuming are events that need to happen. I see two numbers, "116", which if you look refers to the Life Seal on the same screen. Then there's the "99999" trigger, which... well, I have no idea what it means. Is this the second trigger you were referring to? Because I see that the other two jars have it as well, which is I didn't of it being anything specific to the 200 coin pot at first.

Something I don't get is how the heck it knows to only make the Surface coins appear once. I don't see anything specific to the Surface jars that makes this possible. Is it something that's hard-coded for the Surface?

Anyway, I'm thinking the secret is to find out what the heck OP3 is for, given that every Jar seems to have a different one.

EDIT 2: Haha we posted at like the same time. Anyway, yeah, that was my next plan - follow Jman's run EXACTLY and see if the coin is there. I'll see when I can find the time to do that.

And yeah, I can concur that the editor is really complicated, especially when you don't know even a bit of Japanese. Smiley

Holy crap that's awesome! Thanks Anon! Definitely let us know what you find.

It's funny, I actually downloaded the map editor on the same hunch but I had NO idea what anything meant. :)

EDIT: Maybe I can elaborate... so it looks like OP1=7 is a Coin jar, OP2 is the amount it gives. OP4 always seems to be -1 (which I assume means "unused"), and OP3 is... something. Some sort of large integer that's never the same for any two jars.

Anyway, our jars in question have additional "START flags", which I'm assuming are events that need to happen. I see two numbers, "116", which if you look refers to the Life Seal on the same screen. Then there's the "99999" trigger, which... well, I have no idea what it means. Is this the second trigger you were referring to? Because I see that the other two jars have it as well, which is I didn't of it being anything specific to the 200 coin pot at first.

Something I don't get is how the heck it knows to only make the Surface coins appear once. I don't see anything specific to the Surface jars that makes this possible. Is it something that's hard-coded for the Surface?

Anyway, I'm thinking the secret is to find out what the heck OP3 is for, given that every Jar seems to have a different one.

EDIT 2: Haha we posted at like the same time. Anyway, yeah, that was my next plan - follow Jman's run EXACTLY and see if the coin is there. I'll see when I can find the time to do that.

And yeah, I can concur that the editor is really complicated, especially when you don't know even a bit of Japanese. :)

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-23 04:15:37 pm

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-23 04:08:17 pm

2011-05-23 04:07:53 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

The editor is actually really complicated. Most of my workings with it have been trial and error. Basically I have to look at all the objects in the game and see which one does what, and there are a lot of rooms.

Even though you could help me a bit. Watch jmans run and see what you do, or what you don't do, Also you could watch an lp of the game and see what your doing or not doing before they get the 100 coin.

Edit: Ok here is something interesting. The Treasure item needs the same even to happen for it to work. How about you get the treasure before you get the 200 coin pot and see if it works.

TheMaxican

Edit history:

TheMaxican: 2011-05-23 04:25:26 pm

2011-05-23 04:20:50 pm

Break through the final confusion

Ah, that is interesting!

However, note that both on his official run AND his marathon run, Jman gets the Treasure RIGHT after getting the 200 coins. Still, something else is that Jman also kills the Algol before all of this anyway, as well a whole bunch of other stuff that I don't do.

Hmm... nevertheless, it's worth a shot! I'll try it out next chance I get.

EDIT: Haha, so much action on this thread now. I just found the 99999 trigger on both the Guidance Gate elevator AND the gate leading to Duracuets. So I'm starting to think that the 99999 trigger is some sort of special trigger that means something else entirely. Perhaps not a trigger in it of itself, but some sort of placeholder for something...

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-23 04:26:25 pm

2011-05-23 04:25:48 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Also the door to get the pepper runs on the same event.

Also you are correct on the 99999. And -1 means unused. If you notice, the pots also do something. What they do is they trigger an event that triggers them false. That is how the 1 time coin pots work.

However this could all be a glitch in the programming with the version you have which would suck. Maybe I could compile the map and send it to you and see if it gets fixed because that might be the problem.

Or you could just compile the map your using.

TheMaxican

2011-05-23 04:30:34 pm

Break through the final confusion

Hmmm, don't think I'm seeing how the pots "unset" themselves. Especially because the other pots on the surface don't even HAVE anything under the "START flags". Is it related to OP3?

And, yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to compile the map as we speak. Smiley

It's hard when all the buttons just have question marks. Smiley

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-23 04:36:33 pm

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-23 04:35:14 pm

2011-05-23 04:34:35 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

actually what the out puts do is they trigger the coin creation then you grabbing the coin triggers its destruction and also triggers the even that makes it false. So the pot still shows up but the coin doesn't, like I said its really complicated because objects have events too. Which would mean either in your version, the op is wrong or the coins false event is wrong.

Edit: Also I think the compile button is the 3rd one but I've never compiled with a map Tongue

TheMaxican

2011-05-23 04:38:32 pm

Break through the final confusion

Oh holy crap I missed that entirely. Wait, is the "coin" itself an event I can see on the editor, or just created on the fly?

And I figured it out, what was confusing me was the "Open" dialog, that ACTUALLY means, "Open the file that I will then compile." Yeah... Smiley

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-23 04:52:55 pm

2011-05-23 04:40:19 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

If there is a way to see the objects, I don't know of it.

Edit: Just a quick question, in the picture for your exe file, does black fill the extra space or is the extra space transparent. You might have a bad exe.

TheMaxican

2011-05-23 04:54:47 pm

Break through the final confusion

Hmm... I think the extra space has always been black for me. Why, what are you thinking?

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-23 04:57:04 pm

2011-05-23 04:56:38 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

Ok well if its black then its the same as mine. I was thinking it was a bad exe but I'm now more towards the bad map. Just a quick question, where did you download it from?

TheMaxican

Edit history:

TheMaxican: 2011-05-23 05:22:52 pm

TheMaxican: 2011-05-23 05:03:39 pm

2011-05-23 05:00:26 pm

Break through the final confusion

I've always used the one from the aeon-genesis page: http://agtp.romhack.net/extra/LA-MULANA.zip

At one point I tried the one from the link you posted a while ago, but like I said at the time, I found that they were bit-by-bit identical, and the quick usual playthrough didn't give the 200 coins, so I've stuck with the one above.

This is the Japanese version, of course. I stopped using the English translation patch a while ago.

I can add that I know there's a few versions around. Apparently, the earlier version of the translation patch added some ledges to make Hell Temple easier or something. But I definitely didn't see any extra ledges when I played.

EDIT: It JUST occurred to me that even though the EXECUTABLE was the same, the data files might not have been. Yikes. I'll have to check that later...

EDIT #2: Well, I check, and... yeah, it's all the same. I can now confirm that the aeon-genesis version and the link you posted before are 100% identical (well, except that the aeon-genesis one comes with the manual, haha...)
So yeah, if there's a .dat issue, it looks like it would indeed be in the "official" version...

Just a random thought... Anon, would you just happen to have a random save lying around that's as close as possible to the 200 coin pot? Like, from your previous run or something? I wonder if you could just send me that one and I can try it out...

I've always used the one from the aeon-genesis page: http://agtp.romhack.net/extra/LA-MULANA.zip

At one point I tried the one from the link you posted a while ago, but like I said at the time, I found that they were bit-by-bit identical, and the quick usual playthrough didn't give the 200 coins, so I've stuck with the one above.

This is the Japanese version, of course. I stopped using the English translation patch a while ago.

I can add that I know there's a few versions around. Apparently, the earlier version of the translation patch added some ledges to make Hell Temple easier or something. But I definitely didn't see any extra ledges when I played.

EDIT: It JUST occurred to me that even though the EXECUTABLE was the same, the data files might not have been. Yikes. I'll have to check that later...

EDIT #2: Well, I check, and... yeah, it's all the same. I can now confirm that the aeon-genesis version and the link you posted before are 100% identical (well, except that the aeon-genesis one comes with the manual, haha...)
So yeah, if there's a .dat issue, it looks like it would indeed be in the "official" version...

Just a random thought... Anon, would you just happen to have a random save lying around that's as close as possible to the 200 coin pot? Like, from your previous run or something? I wonder if you could just send me that one and I can try it out...

Anonymous52555

2011-05-23 05:05:54 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I wish you could decompile the .dat files. then we could see if it is truly the wrong value.

TheMaxican

Edit history:

TheMaxican: 2011-05-23 06:33:01 pm

2011-05-23 06:16:33 pm

Break through the final confusion

Sweet Mother of La-Mulana... do I have news. (WARNING: POST OF THE CENTURY!)

I know what causes those 200 Coins to disappear. But first... story time.

So I compiled the map using the map editor, and created the script.dat file. And, guess what... NO difference from the official one. Nevertheless, I decided to give it a quick run, and... BLAMO, 200 Coins appeared!
Needless to say, I was shocked. I took the save file around to the other installs I had and sure enough, the 200 Coins now appear on every version of the game. Which taught me that the 200 Coins appearing has ONLY to do with the save file and NOTHING else. This was a good finding.

So then I thought, well, what did I do differently in this playthrough? So I loaded up the save file, did some stuff, then checked the pot. And... then I realized I hadn't gone through that part of Guidance Gate where the one-time door closes behind you (before the room above Amphisbaena). Indeed, on this playthrough I accidentally got thrown into the pit below the green orb, so I had no reason to go up there.

So... get this. Take the save file, load, go to pots, 200 Coins are there. Load that same save file, go to the gate, close it, go to the pots... 200 Coins gone.

Astounded, I loaded up the map editor. The OP3 on the 200 Coin jar is 117. The OP1 on the gate that closes is... 117.

HOLY CRAP THE GODDAMN GATE CLOSING REMOVES THE 200 COINS!!!!!

...I need some time to calm down. Smiley

...

Okay, what does this mean. Let's think back to what we know:
1) The 200 Coins appearing or not has ONLY to do with the save file, and not anything else.
2) Certain events in the game (event 117, to be exact) causes the coins to disappear. For now we just know of that gate, but conceivably there could be others as well (at first I thought it was all "traps" but I tried a few and the coins were still there).
3) The usual SS path doesn't seem to hit any of these triggers.
And finally, most importantly:
4) Anon and I need to make sure the routes we choose don't set off any of these triggers. Getting the 100 Coins as soon as possible is probably the safest bet.

Wow... yeah... I still need some time to calm down... Smiley

EDIT: Ok, I calmed down a bit. It looks like 117 shows up in quite a few places in the script.txt, so I'm guessing there's probably more than one trigger (and I'm also assuming they're all "traps", going by the fact that Jman doesn't seem to run into this), but it's probably too time-consuming to try to find them all. So what I'll do is I'll change my route to account for this, try it out, and ensure that I'm not accidentally hitting the trigger some other way.

It also just hit me that this is what Nigoro meant when they said if you get trapped, you can teleport out, but suddenly find that the game is much more difficult. This makes me think that this is NOT a bug (as I first thought it was), but actually yet another well-devised trap set by the developers. Oh, Nigoro, you evil geniuses...

Anyway, many thanks as usual, Anon. Having this whole discussion is certainly what did it, because this is so freaking random that I have NO idea how else this would have been discovered. Smiley

Now I can go back to planning the run with all the piece of mind I needed...

Sweet Mother of La-Mulana... do I have news. (WARNING: POST OF THE CENTURY!)

I know what causes those 200 Coins to disappear. But first... story time.

So I compiled the map using the map editor, and created the script.dat file. And, guess what... NO difference from the official one. Nevertheless, I decided to give it a quick run, and... BLAMO, 200 Coins appeared!
Needless to say, I was shocked. I took the save file around to the other installs I had and sure enough, the 200 Coins now appear on every version of the game. Which taught me that the 200 Coins appearing has ONLY to do with the save file and NOTHING else. This was a good finding.

So then I thought, well, what did I do differently in this playthrough? So I loaded up the save file, did some stuff, then checked the pot. And... then I realized I hadn't gone through that part of Guidance Gate where the one-time door closes behind you (before the room above Amphisbaena). Indeed, on this playthrough I accidentally got thrown into the pit below the green orb, so I had no reason to go up there.

So... get this. Take the save file, load, go to pots, 200 Coins are there. Load that same save file, go to the gate, close it, go to the pots... 200 Coins gone.

Astounded, I loaded up the map editor. The OP3 on the 200 Coin jar is 117. The OP1 on the gate that closes is... 117.

HOLY CRAP THE GODDAMN GATE CLOSING REMOVES THE 200 COINS!!!!!

...I need some time to calm down. :)

...

Okay, what does this mean. Let's think back to what we know:
1) The 200 Coins appearing or not has ONLY to do with the save file, and not anything else.
2) Certain events in the game (event 117, to be exact) causes the coins to disappear. For now we just know of that gate, but conceivably there could be others as well (at first I thought it was all "traps" but I tried a few and the coins were still there).
3) The usual SS path doesn't seem to hit any of these triggers.
And finally, most importantly:
4) Anon and I need to make sure the routes we choose don't set off any of these triggers. Getting the 100 Coins as soon as possible is probably the safest bet.

Wow... yeah... I still need some time to calm down... :)

EDIT: Ok, I calmed down a bit. It looks like 117 shows up in quite a few places in the script.txt, so I'm guessing there's probably more than one trigger (and I'm also assuming they're all "traps", going by the fact that Jman doesn't seem to run into this), but it's probably too time-consuming to try to find them all. So what I'll do is I'll change my route to account for this, try it out, and ensure that I'm not accidentally hitting the trigger some other way.

It also just hit me that this is what Nigoro meant when they said if you get trapped, you can teleport out, but suddenly find that the game is much more difficult. This makes me think that this is NOT a bug (as I first thought it was), but actually yet another well-devised trap set by the developers. Oh, Nigoro, you evil geniuses...

Anyway, many thanks as usual, Anon. Having this whole discussion is certainly what did it, because this is so freaking random that I have NO idea how else this would have been discovered. :)

Now I can go back to planning the run with all the piece of mind I needed...

Anonymous52555

Edit history:

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-23 07:32:29 pm

Anonymous52555: 2011-05-23 07:30:13 pm

2011-05-23 07:24:12 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I just checked my save file that I got the 200 coins, and I did not hit the gate. About time we discovered this. Happy day. I'll go check the other traps as well to account for everything else.

Edit: Just checked a bunch of the traps in the game and none are giving me the 117. However you did ask what makes it not spawn and here is the answer. The coin needs variable 117 to be true for it to spawn. When the pot is hit 117 is set to false and when the wall is activate, the 117 is set to false. I should go check for stuff like bombs and weights and see if they have stuff against them too.

Edit: the description of the 117 variable is "Two watchmen on the wall Toshimaru Guidance" Not sure what that means but ok.

TheMaxican

2011-05-23 07:38:28 pm

Break through the final confusion

Oooh, that explanation makes a lot more sense.

Ha! I just tried something - get the 200 Coins, then go check the wall. It's sealed, even though you never activated it!

Hmm... now I'm not sure if this is a bug or not. Seems like something that would have been done if the developers made a mistake or got lazy - two completely separate actions are sharing the same trigger. If that was the case, then perhaps this wall is indeed the ONLY other trigger.

This gets stranger by the minute!

Anonymous52555

2011-05-23 07:42:40 pm

Metroidvanias are God Tier

well now on the Wii version I will be sure not to hit that trigger just in case it was intentional. But Also I assumed that would happen. Because I notice what they like to do for variable OP3 is that is the variable that makes things stay the same. Good for organization purposes. I find it funny we had to delve into the depths of the games coding to figure this out.

TheMaxican

2011-05-23 07:53:27 pm

Break through the final confusion

Haha, totally. It's just so random! Actually, now I think that we'll know if it was a bug or not if it's "fixed" for the Wii version. Smiley

Anyway, I'm just relieved we figured this out... now I'm that much more anxious to finish the planning so I can get the run going!

BlueGlass

Edit history:

BlueGlass: 2011-05-24 12:40:04 am

2011-05-24 12:37:57 am

Yep yep yep!

A huge congratulations on figuring this out. I'm sorry I wasn't able to be of any help; not only am I terrible at technical stuff, I've also been extremely busy this past week.

Maybe this find should be posted on the wiki, so future La-mulana players don't get horribly confused when their coins are missing.

Anonymous52555

2011-05-24 06:13:30 am

Metroidvanias are God Tier

I was going to edit this as soon as I checked what he said was true. Then I saw TheMaxican had already taken care of everything.

TheMaxican

2011-05-24 09:10:06 pm

Break through the final confusion

Haha, yeah, I was kinda in a "I have to tell the world!" mentality. I STILL am, actually...

Anyway, making great progress on the plan. I'm on Segment 32 and already at 1000 lines of a text file! It looks like if things go to plan, I'll have 40 segments exactly. With any luck I'll finish and post it sometime this week, otherwise I'll try to get it done this weekend!